VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 13.1 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[Cicica]

This is a bit difficult to tap around. We all agree that ORS is an outstanding game, and we all love Eva for creating it for us. Part of me is reluctant to offer criticism for fear of hurting her feelings when I’m so grateful for what she’s created.

But I too was put off by the trans conversation. It seemed to depict heavily outdated and disdainful thinking, and that content topic she chose wasn’t necessary to accomplish the goal of the scene. She could have written an entirely different conversation that still served the same purpose, without including hate speech that could negatively impact certain people playing the game.

Similarly, I was also disappointed by Eva’s recent post referencing “jungle fever” when describing fans’ preference for Jeremy. That’s a phrase rooted in racism.

I’m a straight white male. Neither of these things offended me personally, but I can see with empathy how they may hurt others.

I don’t know if these examples are indications of Eva’s character, or just elements of her culture where she lives. When she receives some of our collective criticism, I hope she can use it as an opportunity for reflection and growth and not perceive it as a personal attack.

I am very grateful for her games, don't get me wrong. She's really good at Visual Novels, like really talented, no question about that. However, she's not an opinion former in any way shape or form and I am not afraid to give her criticism. These political, gay and trans subjects should be kept outside of this game, as we already deal with them everyday and I am personally sick and tired of listening to this at the news or see it in movies or hear about it IRL. She can keep the game realistic and very interesting without resorting to these kind of things. Plus, personally, I am not interested in listening to her fetishes or opinions presented through certain characters in a video game.
As I said, she's an amazing VN creator, but not an opinion former, so she should keep these things to herself or at least make them totally avoidable, by requiring specific choices to encounter them.

 

[manscout]

Okay, let me tell you this behind-the-scenes secret. This conversation was initially in Chapter 6, with a bit different context. Ian didn't have the option to be neutral. At all. I brought it up to Eva, so she decided to cut it out and replaced the conversation with Perry and Wade checking Ivy's and Lena's Peoplegram. I realized that she decided to implement this dialogue in Chapter 7 at least, but added options to be actively transphobic, be neutral or make fun of Perry while avoiding the touchy subject, instead saying "Is there some kind of porn you don't like?", lightening the mood. Are any of those options ideal? Not really. Do they allow to play Ian differently? Yes. To me, that was okay while I might have preferred a more direct answer supporting trans-women, too.

Now, I could relay the criticism to Eva and say that it's still not enough and that the players want an active option to educate Wade. One of two things can happen.
1) She might change the wording of the last option to be more defensive, but the thing is, it's harder to converge the dialogue into the same place as all other options do, because Wade might get angry and say something like "don't go all SJW on me, today I want to relax", potentially even resulting in -1 Wade point.

2) She might cut the conversation altogether again and not bother bringing it back or writing about these kinds of topics ever again because angering people is the last thing she wants to accomplish. And considering that it's exactly what she did the first time, that's the most likely outcome.

So, what should it be? Here's the moment of an absolute agency where you get to rewrite the script.

I want to start out by saying that I don't think anyone here has "absolute agency", ultimately any change to the game is EvaKiss' decision, you can have some influence over it but failing to disclose feedback only makes her decision less informed, because the fact remains that some people aren't happy with the options present in that scene. I think it is silly to hold yourself or anyone here as ultimately responsible for how EvaKiss handles her game.

Personally I agree with the idea that the conversation feels unbalanced and that a 4th option could help with that, if you are looking for specific suggestions then:

Spoiler

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[Master5043]

We dont need this SJW stuff in porn game with sexy and kinky girls,
boring SJW things are more than enough in everyday life and cinema

100% agree, and EvaKiss don't need angry woke mob who will tell her how to make the game, and bullying her for decision they don't like

 

[phantomz]

No need cause, I already consider Stan the Man to get some Lena pussy .

yea , it could be
im really interested to see whats going to happen between them .
these two pervert characters can create some interesting sexual scenes

 

[Cicica]

I want to start out by saying that I don't think anyone here has "absolute agency", ultimately any change to the game is EvaKiss' decision, you can have some influence over it but failing to disclose feedback only makes her decision less informed, because the fact remains that some people aren't happy with the options present in that scene. I think it is silly to hold yourself or anyone here as ultimately responsible for how EvaKiss handles her game.

Personally I agree with the idea that the conversation feels unbalanced and that a 4th option could help with that, if you are looking for specific suggestions then:

Spoiler

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Yes, ultimately it is her game and she does whatever the Hell she wants to with it and I don't have a problem with that, but I would find it a little bit pathetic to express your opinion through the voice of some video game characters, like no one cares, you can replace that conversation with something else and be done with it. I couldn't care less about her opinions on these subjects, as they are subject of personal preference and no one should be judged upon them. So why make some people feel inferior for their preference? Just don't put the conversation in there and that's it. I don't think the story will suffer because of it.

 

[BlandChili]

Spoiler

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I like both of these suggestions.

 

[willngaa]

I hope Evakiss doesn't let speech policing by the audience start. It never really stops.

 

[BloodyMares]

In your suggestions, you are missing a point that it all is about Perry discovering Emma's open-minded nature (and potential liking to wearing a strap-on). Kinda hard to move the serious topic about defending trans-people to this light-hearted porn talk about kinks that might suggest future content.

 

[niek07]

In your suggestions, you are missing a point that it all is about Perry discovering Emma's open-minded nature (and potential liking to wearing a strap-on). Kinda hard to move the serious topic about defending trans-people to this light-hearted porn talk about kinks that might suggest future content.

I agree. It was just a good way to show that Perry and Emma are both open-minded about sex.
Of course, you could replace it with another fetish but I thought the conversation was fine.

 

[Cicica]

In your suggestions, you are missing a point that it all is about Perry discovering Emma's open-minded nature (and potential liking to wearing a strap-on). Kinda hard to move the serious topic about defending trans-people to this light-hearted porn talk about kinks that might suggest future content.

I mean strap-on is one thing and trans is kind of another IMO. I had the same discussion with my friends when one of them said they liked shemales and then rephrased by saying "strap on women". It's not the same thing. Plus, the conversation doesn't need to bring trans into context to figure out that she's open minded and even open minded has multiple meanings.

 

[BlandChili]

In your suggestions, you are missing a point that it all is about Perry discovering Emma's open-minded nature (and potential liking to wearing a strap-on). Kinda hard to move the serious topic about defending trans-people to this light-hearted porn talk about kinks that might suggest future content.

That's not really the point of the conversation that Ian gets to weight in on though, right? Emma doesn't even get involved in the convo until after Ian gets to speak his mind. We as players can't be expected to predict the designed point of the dialogue from what Ian overhears.

When Ian and the player gets to partake, the question presented is summed up as such: Wade: "Isn't Perry weird for liking dickgirls?" That's what people want different options to respond to.

 

[manscout]

In your suggestions, you are missing a point that it all is about Perry discovering Emma's open-minded nature (and potential liking to wearing a strap-on). Kinda hard to move the serious topic about defending trans-people to this light-hearted porn talk about kinks that might suggest future content.

You're saying Perry's crippling porn addiction is light-hearted? /s

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[Princess Groundhog]

We dont need this SJW stuff in porn game with sexy and kinky girls,
boring SJW things are more than enough in everyday life and cinema

Being kinky and socially progressive aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[BlandChili]

Spoiler

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So much this, I don't think anyone here has suggested anything more confrontational than what both Perry and Cindy have to say in the very same conversation.

 

[Tallyhoe]

Also, I relayed all the criticism to Eva. If she decides to cut the dialogue out, well, you know your heroes.

Why are we relaying critisism from a pirate site to Eva? Shouldn't it be from those patrons who pay to voice their concerns or something? I mean I love reading discussions here no matter how heated they are. But is it that significant to make the dev make a change because people here don't like it?

 

[BloodyMares]

I want to start out by saying that I don't think anyone here has "absolute agency", ultimately any change to the game is EvaKiss' decision, you can have some influence over it but failing to disclose feedback only makes her decision less informed, because the fact remains that some people aren't happy with the options present in that scene. I think it is silly to hold yourself or anyone here as ultimately responsible for how EvaKiss handles her game.

I was just being ironic. I just find it strange that this criticism came up only on this forum, and not from her paying patrons who have a better chance to be heard, or even on her Discord where she reads the posts. It feels entitled to complain about the content on the pirated forum while not giving her a single penny. The question is, should she listen to people who are not supporting her? Will she gain anything out of it?

That's not really the point of the conversation that Ian gets to weight in on though, right? Emma doesn't even get involved in the convo until after Ian gets to speak his mind. We as players can't be expected to predict the designed point of the dialogue from what Ian overhears.

When Ian and the player gets to partake, the question presented is summed up as such: Wade: "Isn't Perry weird for liking dickgirls?" That's what people want different options to respond to.

I'm talking about meta-reasoning. The narrative point of that dialogue is to showcase more of Perry's, Wade's (since he's a birthday boy) and Emma's character, and Perry's reaction to it. It serves as a step 1 towards their relationship if Ian didn't bring him to the club. The starting dialogue is just an excuse that should lead to Emma opening up her kinky nature, making impression on Perry in the process.

 

[Cicica]

Why are we relaying critisism from a pirate site to Eva? Shouldn't it be from those patrons who pay to voice their concerns or something? I mean I love reading discussions here no matter how heated they are. But is it that significant to make the dev make a change because people here don't like it?

I think it's not reasonable to expect everyone here to not be a patron. Beside the pirate thing, it's a forum more than anything else, so people can express their opinions here better than on her Patreon page.

 

[BlandChili]

I was just being ironic. I just find it strange that this criticism came up only on this forum, and not from her paying patrons who have a better chance to be heard, or even on her Discord where she reads the posts. It feels entitled to complain about the content on the pirated forum while not giving her a single penny. The question is, should she listen to people who are not supporting her? Will she gain anything out of it?

Not that Eva necessarily has to listen to a priate forum discussion, but why should she limit herself only patreons either? If anything, isolating your creative outreach to a limited section of her userbase won't grow her creative abilities. I'd argue that there are fewer filters for people to reveal their honesty through here.

I'm talking about meta-reasoning. The narrative point of that dialogue is to showcase more of Perry's, Wade's (since he's a birthday boy) and Emma's character, and Perry's reaction to it. It serves as a step 1 towards their relationship if Ian didn't bring him to the club. The starting dialogue is just an excuse that should lead to Emma opening up her kinky nature, making impression on Perry in the process.

All that's fine, the players concerns are just divorced from Perry and Emma's.

 

[Cicica]

I was just being ironic. I just find it strange that this criticism came up only on this forum, and not from her paying patrons who have a better chance to be heard, or even on her Discord where she reads the posts. It feels entitled to complain about the content on the pirated forum while not giving her a single penny. The question is, should she listen to people who are not supporting her? Will she gain anything out of it?

I don't think that opinion should be reserved for premium, if you want to take it like that. That's the mentality of a cheap person. Also, I don't think that everyone here did not pay her anything at least once, let alone that they might still do so. Again, it is a forum, where opinions are expressed, that's the nature of these things. She can read posts here as well, if she wants, I don't think F95 is forbidden in Spain, but then again, I might be wrong.

 

[BloodyMares]

Why are we relaying critisism from a pirate site to Eva? Shouldn't it be from those patrons who pay to voice their concerns or something? I mean I love reading discussions here no matter how heated they are. But is it that significant to make the dev make a change because people here don't like it?

They are complaining about Eva not having a whole picture, so what the hell. If Eva wants to dismiss it, she has all the right for it, and I agree that ideally if you want something changed, you should be a supporter.