VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 13.1 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[RC-1138 Boss]

Wade comes across as a douche and Perry as a sensible guy. And Ian can either be a bigger douche and kink-shame Perry, or be neutral, because even if he'd like to defend trans-girls, it's Wade's birthday. Antagonizing him on his birthday is being a bad friend. And again, the heated argument would sour the mood for everyone. There's time and place for everything. I see nothing wrong when Eva leaves a choice to the player whether to act transphobic or not. The game shouldn't feel like preaching.

And these sensitive reactions are exactly the reason why Eva is uncomfortable writing any gay/bi content. Because no matter how she does it, she'll end up pissing someone off who'll be very quick to go all cancel-culture on her.

It has been explained many times: Jasmine was a request of a high-tier patron (at the start of GGGB's development there was a tier that let you do that, Nat was another example), a trans herself, that asked for her to be displayed that way.

Btw, Eva is trying to tell a story not writing a pollitical essay. There are transphobic people (and language) in the world, as there are nazis, sexists and Michael Bolton fans; should an author refrain to introduce such nasty characters in his work if he sees fit?

Well everything is political. People need to stop think this is a "dirty" word. If you are creating something your ideals are going into it.
So she shouldn't stop writting what she wants but when the only mention about a transgender character are either some tasteless bigoted jokes or a noncommittal defense i would say something has gone wrong there. gisgus is right, this could have been much better written there.

That is not a question of being uncomfortable but of applying some effort to not look the most cliché as possible when writting about the theme, since she decided to do it again. I thought after all the issues with Jasmine (who was more generic than the black pornstars with giant cocks in GGGB) she would have learned to not fall for the same tropes by now.


ps:
Cancel culture? Really?

 

[echilog]

It has been explained many times: Jasmine was a request of a high-tier patron (at the start of GGGB's development there was a tier that let you do that, Nat was another example), a trans herself, that asked for her to be displayed that way.

Btw, Eva is trying to tell a story not writing a pollitical essay. There are transphobic people (and language) in the world, as there are nazis, sexists and Michael Bolton fans; should an author refrain to introduce such nasty characters in his work if he sees fit?

This is indeed a very good point, It is often forgotten, that there are as many bad poeple out there, as there are good people. (or atleast people who you disagree with).

And when writeing a character, you have to consider that. I have written many characters as a dnd DM, that I would loath in real life.

those characters are not YOU the writer. (and it can often be really hard to write a character with whom you don't not share alot with)

 

[BlandChili]

And these sensitive reactions are exactly the reason why Eva is uncomfortable writing any gay/bi content. Because no matter how she does it, she'll end up pissing someone off who'll be very quick to go all cancel-culture on her.

That's not a very sensible take, lifegetsweird's reaction was not sensitive at all. They're asking for an additional option that allows Ian to express a more direct opposition to the depiction of transgender. If anything, the walls of text you put up deflecting all the criticism is what's sensitive.

Btw, Eva is trying to tell a story not writing a pollitical essay. There are transphobic people (and language) in the world, as there are nazis, sexists and Michael Bolton fans; should an author refrain to introduce such nasty characters in his work if he sees fit?

You're putting a lot into lifegetsweird's mouth here that they never said. They never asked for transphobic characters not to be displayed, or for the language they use to be censored, just that the player character could have an option to challenge their viewpoints or at least counter them.

 

[Cabot]

You're putting a lot into lifegetsweird's mouth here that they never said. They never asked for transphobic characters not to be displayed, or for the language they use to be censored...

I reeeally could have done without the extremely transphobic language :/ it came out of left field too.

 

[teocz]

Nice touch, in my bitchy route:

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While in the "romance" route:

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What action makes her change like this?

Wait good Jessica has more Rounded and bigger boob's than Bad Jessica?time for another playthrough

 

[BloodyMares]

If you are creating something your ideals are going into it.

Very hot take. Sometimes for the world and characters to feel alive, you need to mix it up with various ranging personalities. The world isn't made of sunshine and bunnies. And just because it's a minority topic, it doesn't mean that it has to be strictly one-sided and politically correct. Once again, only Cindy of the bunch shows awareness about this topic, but for some reason, this is ignored. Why? Nobody wants to acknowledge that detail and focuses their attention on Wade and Ian. If Ian is allowed to be played as Mr. Right in every situation, then he would become a boring Gary Stu. They are all a bunch of young adults who don't always say the right thing, Perry being the prime example of opening his mouth when nobody asks him. But in this scene, he's somewhat redeemed and is made more likable. It wasn't 2 politicians having a political debate, it was just friends talking. And ironically, Perry who hates talking about politics ends up being very politically vocal in this scene which might actually lead to him becoming more interested in politics. Does nobody care about character development?

 

[godoff95]

Guys you're giving her more importance than necessary.

 

[Cabot]

Well everything is political.

Maybe to you. I know not all my casual conversations among friends necessarily dial to one hundred the political angle.

In this instance Ian and the gang were arguing about porn and kinks, nothing more. You would have seized the opportunity to make a political stance? Good for you (seriously, nobody said political is a dirty word, that was a straw man fallacy you played ). Others don't.

 

[BloodyMares]

That's not a very sensible take, lifegetsweird's reaction was not sensitive at all. They're asking for an additional option that allows Ian to express a more direct opposition to the depiction of transgender. If anything, the walls of text you put up deflecting all the criticism is what's sensitive.

A long time ago, I already explained that despite Ian and Lena being the protagonists, they are not the player inserted into the game. They have their own personalities that you might not like and disagree with, but can't rewrite. You can't make them say things that aren't accounted for by the script. It's not a shortcoming of Eva of not predicting that a player might want to say that thing to feel more in sync with the playable character, it's just that Ian or Lena in that situation doesn't act this way for one reason or another. Ian might not want to directly antagonize Wade. In fact, in the entirety of the game, he never had the option to say a bad thing to Wade with the intention to antagonize him, while at the same time constantly bickering with Perry and having banter with him. It's just how their character dynamic worked to this point. You might like it and appreciate this detail, or dislike it for the lack of player agency. But it is how it is.

 

[BlandChili]

A long time ago, I already explained that despite Ian and Lena being the protagonists, they are not the player inserted into the game. They have their own personalities that you might not like and disagree with, but can't rewrite. You can't make them say things that aren't accounted for by the script. It's not a shortcoming of Eva of not predicting that a player might want to say that thing to feel more in sync with the playable character, it's just that Ian or Lena in that situation doesn't act this way for one reason or another. Ian might not want to directly antagonize Wade. In fact, in the entirety of the game, he never had the option to say a bad thing to Wade with the intention to antagonize him, while at the same time constantly bickering with Perry and having banter with him. It's just how their character dynamic worked to this point. You might like it and appreciate this detail, or dislike it for the lack of player agency. But it is how it is.

Ian and Lena being defined characters doesn't mean they can't have options speaking up for transgender. Nothing in Ian's history suggests that he wouldn't have the capacity to make such a response and not cause a scene. If anything, Ian seems to be very perceptive and in previous chapters of ORS we have options of calling out Wade already. We don't have to antagonize him, or the intention behind it doesn't need to be that, for Ian to speak up.

 

[al3mu]

Im just going to place my bet here early:
Emma will be the first character to incite a threesome, ian/emma/lena and ian/jeremy/emma . The choices and scenes in c7 point in this direction imo.

 

[Master5043]

Hi, does anyone have an idea, why Eva made most of male characters annoying? Take a look:
Axel is a typical abuser, Robert trying to be bully macho-man, but can be punched by Ian twice, and aches about "feelings". He probably have some complex.
Perry is annoying, Wade acts like a man in a midlife crisis(Typical Michael from GTAV), lives a passive life like a vegetable. Stan... no words, just Creepy Stan.
The only characters that gives a positive vibes for me are Jeremy, Mike and Seymour. And probably new black dude from 0.7

 

[Cicica]

So, what should it be? Here's the moment of an absolute agency where you get to rewrite the script.

In my humble opinion if there isn't any gay/trans content planned for the future, I'd avoid these things, as they are not taken very well in this day and age. I mean, I look at myself and if I had the choice to hide this kind of a discussion for my playthrough, I'd do it. At the same time, I liked it how she handled the trans content in GGGB, given that I didn't really have to interact much with it, considering I don't like it in the first place. So if Eva absolutely wants to introduce gay/trans, at least make it totally avoidable unless a very specific path is taken. You can't please everyone in this world, so there is that...

 

[Cicica]

Hi, does anyone have an idea, why Eva made most of male characters annoying? Take a look:
Axel is a typical abuser, Robert trying to be bully macho-man, but can be punched by Ian twice, and aches about "feelings". He probably have some complex.
Perry is annoying, Wade acts like a man in a midlife crisis(Typical Michael from GTAV), lives a passive life like a vegetable. Stan... no words, just Creepy Stan.
The only characters that gives a positive vibes for me are Jeremy, Mike and Seymour. And probably new black dude from 0.7

I guess because most guys are like this IRL. I mean I am a dude and these are the stereotypes that I see everywhere around me. Either one of these, mostly the first two... So at least I think she wanted to create a very realistic environment for all the dudes in the game, with Ian being the more average Joe, even "boring" if you will, but in a good way in my opinion, depending, of course, on the path that you take.

 

[thomastm]

I will never understand the reasoning behind this decision.
Lena already barely has any relationship in the game so far when compared to Ian (not including protagonists fucking each other) and to not get the depressing and drugged version of Jessica you need to cut off two out of three of Lena's possibles sexual partners .

But in my playthrough Lena have sex with Robert & Mike and still get good Jess Here the save file

 

[Skylark21]

But in my playthrough Lena have sex with Robert & Mike and still get good Jess Here the save file

I guess it's older save file? Earlier fate of Jessica depended on Ian's interaction with Cherry(I think so) but it changed to LenaxRobert/Mike after v5 enhanced version.

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

Spoiler: The transgender conversation

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[Master5043]

I guess because most guys are like this IRL. I mean I am a dude and these are the stereotypes that I see everywhere around me. Either one of these, mostly the first two... So at least I think she wanted to create a very realistic environment for all the dudes in the game, with Ian being the more average Joe, even "boring" if you will, but in a good way in my opinion, depending, of course, on the path that you take.

I don't find Ian boring. At the beginning of the game, maybe yes. But then it all depends on the player - whether he should be an alpha or beta, or something in between.
It's generally good that Eva made the characters contradictory. It makes a game more alive and realistic, but i hope for more characters, that gives a positive energy in the future updates.

 

[maksblack1000]

anyone could share the lesbian route with Louse?

 

[Cawapuce2321]

Okay, let me tell you this behind-the-scenes secret. This conversation was initially in Chapter 6, with a bit different context. Ian didn't have the option to be neutral. At all. I brought it up to Eva, so she decided to cut it out and replaced the conversation with Perry and Wade checking Ivy's and Lena's Peoplegram. I realized that she decided to implement this dialogue in Chapter 7 at least, but added options to be actively transphobic, be neutral or make fun of Perry while avoiding the touchy subject, instead saying "Is there some kind of porn you don't like?", lightening the mood. Are any of those options ideal? Not really. Do they allow to play Ian differently? Yes. To me, that was okay while I might have preferred a more direct answer supporting trans-women, too.

Now, I could relay the criticism to Eva and say that it's still not enough and that the players want an active option to educate Wade. One of two things can happen.
1) She might change the wording of the last option to be more defensive, but the thing is, it's harder to converge the dialogue into the same place as all other options do, because Wade might get angry and say something like "don't go all SJW on me, today I want to relax", potentially even resulting in -1 Wade point.

2) She might cut the conversation altogether again and not bother bringing it back or writing about these kinds of topics ever again because angering people is the last thing she wants to accomplish. And considering that it's exactly what she did the first time, that's the most likely outcome.

So, what should it be? Here's the moment of an absolute agency where you get to rewrite the script.

I think Eva should do as she please because it is her game and no matter what you do you will always have people to complain about your work it is human nature but anyway thanks for your concern and your work here and with Eva !