VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.2 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[selberdreher]

There is also another issue which is a bit meta and difficult to voice even in my own language. I hope i can convey this in a comprehensible way.

Do you guys believe, that every choice which actually alters the story splits off a seperate thread of reality like in Steins:Gate?
This would imply that an Alison on Ians path would be a different person entity than an Alison who never got involved with Ian, and if this was the case there could be indeed a character with a great personality in one thread of reality and a despicable one in another and we can't argue about those traits because we would compare two different characters.
I have to admit i am kind of fond of this idea, but it would probably kill any debate.

If on the other hand there is only one in-game reality which can evolve in different ways, i think it's admissible to conclude on a characters personality by looking at their what-if choices.
There was one which particularly stood out to me and that was Wades reaction on Cindys post of her first photoshoot. In my canon playthrough myIan urged Cindy to do nudes and she posted the backside topless picture in which she slips off her undies. To which Wade reacted -understandably- upset.
BUT he also went ballistic on another, very tame one, in which she didn't do nudes and posted a reasonable and beautiful, fully clothed picture of her looking over her shoulder. A picture which could have evoked a proud, yet surprised reaction from her boyfriend, like "Wow, look how beautiful my girlfriend is. Wait, who took that picture? Eh, nevermind, perhaps i ask her later."
To which i thought something along the lines of 'My boy Wade, perhaps you are an asshole and don't deserve better than get your girl stolen from you.'

I am wondering about at which point of the progression of a characters arc we can't conclude on or compare a characters personality anymore. Is a fair assessment of Alison, for instance, feasible if we take these two different weekend trips? The one in which she has a threesome with Jeremy and Billy versus the one she spends with Ian? I kind of think yes and no.
The seed for this branching was always existent in Alison at the start of the game, and her personality nurtured it into growing these two different branches. However the threesome Alison is as far away from the Ian Alison that they could very well be in another Steins:Gate reality. They are backwards comparable, but not directly with each other.

Does this make any sense? What is your take on this?

 

[The_Searcher]

There is also another issue which is a bit meta and difficult to voice even in my own language. I hope i can convey this in a comprehensible way.

Do you guys believe, that every choice which actually alters the story splits off a seperate thread of reality like in Steins:Gate?
This would imply that an Alison on Ians path would be a different person entity than an Alison who never got involved with Ian, and if this was the case there could be indeed a character with a great personality in one thread of reality and a despicable one in another and we can't argue about those traits because we would compare two different characters.
I have to admit i am kind of fond of this idea, but it would probably kill any debate.

If on the other hand there is only one in-game reality which can evolve in different ways, i think it's admissible to conclude on a characters personality by looking at their what-if choices.
There was one which particularly stood out to me and that was Wades reaction on Cindys post of her first photoshoot. In my canon playthrough myIan urged Cindy to do nudes and she posted the backside topless picture in which she slips off her undies. To which Wade reacted -understandably- upset.
BUT he also went ballistic on another, very tame one, in which she didn't do nudes and posted a reasonable and beautiful, fully clothed picture of her looking over her shoulder. A picture which could have evoked a proud, yet surprised reaction from her boyfriend, like "Wow, look how beautiful my girlfriend is. Wait, who took that picture? Eh, nevermind, perhaps i ask her later."
To which i thought something along the lines of 'My boy Wade, perhaps you are an asshole and don't deserve better than get your girl stolen from you.'

I am wondering about at which point of the progression of a characters arc we can't conclude on or compare a characters personality anymore. Is a fair assessment of Alison, for instance, feasible if we take these two different weekend trips? The one in which she has a threesome with Jeremy and Billy versus the one she spends with Ian? I kind of think yes and no.
The seed for this branching was always existent in Alison at the start of the game, and her personality nurtured it into growing these two different branches. However the threesome Alison is as far away from the Ian Alison that they could very well be in another Steins:Gate reality. They are backwards comparable, but not directly with each other.

Does this make any sense? What is your take on this?

I love those themes in visual novels like this one.

And ORS, aside of what you said right now, adds more deep about that. Because there is a certain decision point that affect which version of Jessice from GGGB you will meet. If you meet bad Jessica, that means we are on a timeline where at least Ashley (or maybe she went full corruption route, who knows) didn't care about Jessica and help her with her life problems. If you meet good Jessica, it's just the opposite (with the add that it's with someone, maybe Ashley or Dave? Or another different person?). So basically this means that certain Lena decision establish certain GGGB timelines. Well, even Eva tellus this in the dream sequence.

But returning to your point, I think too that the characters like Alison are different in each timeline that results with specific decisions. That's why I don't exactly like that certain events happen always in the game regardless of the decisions you made. But, like Stein's Gate, maybe there are certain events that are unavoidable because there are in the same "Attractor Field". But I don't think that affects to characeters in ORS, the decisions create "different" versions of the characters more adjusted to the decisions of the main characters.

So, basically, I agree with you 100%

 

[dolfe67]

Experience defines an individual, if the experience is not the same then the person is not (totally) the same either

 

[selberdreher]

Experience defines an individual, if the experience is not the same then the person is not (totally) the same either

Yes, that's obvious.
I'll try to phrase it a bit different.

Let's say i have the opportunity to bungee jump. It's obvious the me who did that jump will be different from the one who didn't.
Yet, there are two different reactions from the jumper, one will say afterwards "That was great, i will do it again!" and the other will say "OMG i shat my pants, horrible experience, how could people like this!".

Now we try to conclude, based on this events, if i am risk-averse or thrill-seeking.
I would argue like:
Didn't jump: risk averse
Jumped, but didn't like it: risk averse
Jumped and liked it: thrill seeker
So both the jumper who didn't like it and the one who didn't jump share the same baseline personality trait 'risk-averse'.

I was musing about when and from what events we can conclude on those baseline personality traits of ingame characters, if they are somewhat consistent and not pure blank papers on which we imprint their characteristics with our ingame choices.

Emma can be fucked in her arse by Ian or be fingered by Perry, and both are obviously persons with different experiences after that. But her baseline personality is a friendly, outgoing and free-minded person, which isn't changed by those two developments, quite contrary, those two events are only possible because of her baseline.

Alison can be tag-teamed by J and Billy or can have a hot weekend with Ian and both alternatives 'have to(?)' be the result of her innate characteristics and predispositions.
Like e.g. for the second outcome "Alison has a crush on Ian", but if so, why is the first outcome also possible?
That's part of my argumentation, why Alison is not better than Cindy.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

Yes, that's obvious.
I'll try to phrase it a bit different.

Let's say i have the opportunity to bungee jump. It's obvious the me who did that jump will be different from the one who didn't.
Yet, there are two different reactions from the jumper, one will say afterwards "That was great, i will do it again!" and the other will say "OMG i shat my pants, horrible experience, how could people like this!".

Now we try to conclude, based on this events, if i am risk-averse or thrill-seeking.
I would argue like:
Didn't jump: risk averse
Jumped, but didn't like it: risk averse
Jumped and liked it: thrill seeker
So both the jumper who didn't like it and the one who didn't jump share the same baseline personality trait 'risk-averse'.

I was musing about when and from what events we can conclude on those baseline personality traits of ingame characters, if they are somewhat consistent and not pure blank papers on which we imprint their characteristics with our ingame choices.

Emma can be fucked in her arse by Ian or be fingered by Perry, and both are obviously persons with different experiences after that. But her baseline personality is a friendly, outgoing and free-minded person, which isn't changed by those two developments, quite contrary, those two events are only possible because of her baseline.

Alison can be tag-teamed by J and Billy or can have a hot weekend with Ian and both alternatives 'have to(?)' be the result of her innate characteristics and predispositions.
Like e.g. for the second outcome "Alison has a crush on Ian", but if so, why is the first outcome also possible?
That's part of my argumentation, why Alison is not better than Cindy.

In regards to your phrasing in your earlier post, it depends on what the creator's aim is. Do they want solid, character focused writing (better from a narrative standpoint)? Or do they want to please each individual player's whims as much as possible (arguably better from a game-design standpoint, though some would disagree).

Though better than most adult games, Eva's handling is still less than ideal. She does both, when convenient, which makes some of the writing disjointed. Characters are written with solid personalities that occasionally change believably and naturally based on the consequences of the player's decisions. While other times, they act extremely out of character to serve the narrative the player likely wants.

So sometimes it's solid character. Sometimes it's alternate universe. One or the other would've been the better move here.

 

[selberdreher]

(...) it depends on what the creator's aim is. Do they want solid, character focused writing (better from a narrative standpoint)? Or do they want to please each individual player's whims as much as possible (arguably better from a game-design standpoint, though some would disagree).
(...)
Characters are written with solid personalities that occasionally change believably and naturally based on the consequences of the player's decisions. While other times, they act extremely out of character to serve the narrative the player likely wants.

So sometimes it's solid character. Sometimes it's alternate universe. One or the other would've been the better move here.

Well, i see your argument, but i am not sure if this applies to ORS.
In games which try to actually give their characters a personality and background, like ORS or for instance Pale Carnations, i tend to assume, that even if the realized events are ultimately shaped by our choices, they are still the expression of the characters baseline personality.
So if an event occurs, which is seemingly out-of-character, i would search for traits in that person which allow to realign those events to be consistent with a given personality.

In Alisons case, she asks Ian to accompany her to the weekend trip - which on one occasion he accepts and on another declines -, because she likes him, at least that's the impression i've got (why else would she ask him?).
We have seen on quite a few occasions, that she would prefer Ian over Jeremy, but is always very quick to settle with the second best option, if Ian isn't available. And she isn't discreet about it, which i would kind of expect, if she doesn't want to ruin her chances with him, because not too many guys like sloppy seconds or go for the girl of a friend.
I have no problem with her doing that, she is free to bang anyone, since she isn't in a relationship. That's not my problem here.

However, i do believe her behaviour is only consistent with a character, who quickly acts out if she is displeased or discontent with something like a relationship or an unfavourable outcome (like in her career).
Basically "Look Ian, if you don't want me, there is always J with his BBC i can slave over!" or "I don't get the recognition in my workplace that i deserve, so there has to be an intrigue against me!" or "Why is he talking to that looser Perry, my problems deserve much more attention!"
Which also sheds a different light on her last relationship with Milo, the jealous angry little man, with whom she was unhappy. Like i said before, i am not sure if his jealousy was completely unfounded.

Everyone who prefers Alison over Cindy is by all means welcome to do so, but i believe you need to keep Alison happy at all costs, else she turns into the biggest cheating slut (aside from Lena if we play her that way) in the game.
And i honestly don't know if keeping Alison happy is easier than to accomodate Princess Cindy.

Making Alison happy would probably include to settle down with her and have some babies, which isn't outlandish for a end- twenty something woman, because of course her biological clock is ticking.
But i don't see Ian at his current stage in life to be ready for that. He is trying to get his book published, he has just an internship yet. If he were to become a father this would very likely mean that Ian has to scrap his dream of being an author and has to crawl back to his daddy to work in a job which pays the bills for this family, but which he will hate for sure. This is honestly a recipe for disaster.
That's why in my eyes Alison isn't good girlfriend material in general, and especially for Ian. It's kinda sad we can't ship her with Axel.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

I am interested in reading those arguments, but its hard to find them in a thread of 1300+ pages. Would you or could you kindly link to that past discussion? Or do you remember roughly how long ago it took place?
Because searching for "Alison Cindy" yielded another 45 pages of hits, which i need to narrow down.
Thanks in advance!

I have to base my assessment of our ladies mainly on my own playthrough, which is far from all-encompassing, and have to fill in missing info from the posts of other players, so i am thankfull when someone provides me with those. Looking at you, Turret !

I think you could start from here and lurk for previous posts. They're mostly about Cindy tho.

Based.

Just because Wade is lazy and sometimes uncaring doesn't mean Cindy get a pass for being selfish and egotistical.

 

[selberdreher]

Thank you Samovych Hydzinski, that is indeed a nice point to start reading about them. From there i can go back to get the full picture.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

Well, i see your argument, but i am not sure if this applies to ORS.
In games which try to actually give their characters a personality and background, like ORS or for instance Pale Carnations, i tend to assume, that even if the realized events are ultimately shaped by our choices, they are still the expression of the characters baseline personality.
So if an event occurs, which is seemingly out-of-character, i would search for traits in that person which allow to realign those events to be consistent with a given personality.

In Alisons case, she asks Ian to accompany her to the weekend trip - which on one occasion he accepts and on another declines -, because she likes him, at least that's the impression i've got (why else would she ask him?).
We have seen on quite a few occasions, that she would prefer Ian over Jeremy, but is always very quick to settle with the second best option, if Ian isn't available. And she isn't discreet about it, which i would kind of expect, if she doesn't want to ruin her chances with him, because not too many guys like sloppy seconds or go for the girl of a friend.
I have no problem with her doing that, she is free to bang anyone, since she isn't in a relationship. That's not my problem here.

However, i do believe her behaviour is only consistent with a character, who quickly acts out if she is displeased or discontent with something like a relationship or an unfavourable outcome (like in her career).
Basically "Look Ian, if you don't want me, there is always J with his BBC i can slave over!" or "I don't get the recognition in my workplace that i deserve, so there has to be an intrigue against me!" or "Why is he talking to that looser Perry, my problems deserve much more attention!"
Which also sheds a different light on her last relationship with Milo, the jealous angry little man, with whom she was unhappy. Like i said before, i am not sure if his jealousy was completely unfounded.

Everyone who prefers Alison over Cindy is by all means welcome to do so, but i believe you need to keep Alison happy at all costs, else she turns into the biggest cheating slut (aside from Lena if we play her that way) in the game.
And i honestly don't know if keeping Alison happy is easier than to accomodate Princess Cindy.

Making Alison happy would probably include to settle down with her and have some babies, which isn't outlandish for a end- twenty something woman, because of course her biological clock is ticking.
But i don't see Ian at his current stage in life to be ready for that. He is trying to get his book published, he has just an internship yet. If he were to become a father this would very likely mean that Ian has to scrap his dream of being an author and has to crawl back to his daddy to work in a job which pays the bills for this family, but which he will hate for sure. This is honestly a recipe for disaster.
That's why in my eyes Alison isn't good girlfriend material in general, and especially for Ian. It's kinda sad we can't ship her with Axel.

To clarify, I wasn't saying I disagreed that there are certain instances where characters make plausible choices and reactions that reveal a different side to them. What I was saying is that Eva does both in ORS, which is also why I feel the writing can be disjointed. You're speaking of certain characters in situations where the former may apply and might be assuming I'm talking about the same ones. (I wasn't personally focusing so much on Allison or Cindy as I'm not as interested in those paths and haven't noticed many implausible inconsistencies in them). There are some instances where it's believable that the characters' baseline personalities would react in such a way and other moments where the reaction or attitude is so mismatched, the character seems to have some sort of split personality, which I'm sure Eva didn't intend. It all depends on what paths you've played and what content you've seen. Some mismatches stick out like a sore thumb.

This can arguably be blamed at least partially on the breadth of choices and the workload that breadth entails, however. As well as how closely you're following the writing on specific characters. Even among the MCs, especially Lena. You can play her as an extremely sweet, emotional and sometimes even almost prudish girl, yet in certain sex scenes she'll jump straight into bad hardcore porn dialogue, like a seasoned pro who's filmed several 100-man gangbangs, all due to a single player choice in that scene. Sure, you can say "maybe there's just a lot going on off-screen we didn't see", but that abrupt change needs to be justified in the writing appropriately, including in her internalized thoughts, and it wasn't. Yet in some situations (the Lena/Ian/Holly dynamic, for one), the player is railroaded into a very solid reaction from Lena every time, displaying a Lena that's much more well-defined. I'm not so much buying the plausibility of some Holly changes, either. Some changes seem more to serve player preference for a path over natural progression of a character.

Most obvious example of such an "alternate universe" though is Jessica, whose personality entirely depends on what choices Lena made in the game. Sure, you can also say that it was a best-guess continuation of the Jessica the player may have created in GGGB, based on their play-style in ORS. But it's still a character in this game who is a completely different person based on the choices of an MC she's never met up until that point. This one doesn't bother me so much as it doesn't feel disjointed. You first encounter her as the character she already is. But it is a solid example of an alternate-reality sort of character.


So basically, I'm saying it's both. And you can find examples of both in the game. It's the writer's job to appropriately justify our suspension of disbelief and there are certain path/choice combinations in-game where that wasn't well achieved in regards to the characters' disjointed actions/reactions.

 

[selberdreher]

(...)
Some mismatches stick out like a sore thumb.

This can arguably be blamed at least partially on the breadth of choices and the workload that breadth entails, however. As well as how closely you're following the writing on specific characters. Even among the MCs, especially Lena. (...) I'm not so much buying the plausibility of some Holly changes, either. Some changes seem more to serve player preference for a path over natural progression of a character.

Most obvious example of such an "alternate universe" though is Jessica, whose personality entirely depends on what choices Lena made in the game. (...)

So basically, I'm saying it's both. (...)

These are same good examples, i believe. Interesting and thanks for your clarification!

I am also leaning towards the idea there is is some reality splitting in the game, but i am struggling to define where exactly those alternate universes are formed. Probably at some of the major path decisions, like for instance if Lena was seduced by Axel again or not.
Anyway, it's cool you didn't dismiss this rather 'wacky' theory from the get go. Appreciated!

 

[RoboticCatDogHybrid]

Wish we got the new chapter already my bros. Can't believe it's like a year since the last chapter release. This content drought is taking a hit on my wanking quota my bros.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Wish we got the new chapter already my bros. Can't believe it's like a year since the last chapter release. This content drought is taking a hit on my wanking quota my bros.

Stay strong brother! Christmas is only 2 and a half months away.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

All I want for Chapter 10 is to show how Lena & her friends handle Seymour's blackmail. He's the major factor on why I don't pair up Ian and Lena together.

 

[Turret]

There is also another issue which is a bit meta and difficult to voice even in my own language. I hope i can convey this in a comprehensible way.

Do you guys believe, that every choice which actually alters the story splits off a seperate thread of reality like in Steins:Gate?
This would imply that an Alison on Ians path would be a different person entity than an Alison who never got involved with Ian, and if this was the case there could be indeed a character with a great personality in one thread of reality and a despicable one in another and we can't argue about those traits because we would compare two different characters.
I have to admit i am kind of fond of this idea, but it would probably kill any debate.

If on the other hand there is only one in-game reality which can evolve in different ways, i think it's admissible to conclude on a characters personality by looking at their what-if choices.
There was one which particularly stood out to me and that was Wades reaction on Cindys post of her first photoshoot. In my canon playthrough myIan urged Cindy to do nudes and she posted the backside topless picture in which she slips off her undies. To which Wade reacted -understandably- upset.
BUT he also went ballistic on another, very tame one, in which she didn't do nudes and posted a reasonable and beautiful, fully clothed picture of her looking over her shoulder. A picture which could have evoked a proud, yet surprised reaction from her boyfriend, like "Wow, look how beautiful my girlfriend is. Wait, who took that picture? Eh, nevermind, perhaps i ask her later."
To which i thought something along the lines of 'My boy Wade, perhaps you are an asshole and don't deserve better than get your girl stolen from you.'

I am wondering about at which point of the progression of a characters arc we can't conclude on or compare a characters personality anymore. Is a fair assessment of Alison, for instance, feasible if we take these two different weekend trips? The one in which she has a threesome with Jeremy and Billy versus the one she spends with Ian? I kind of think yes and no.
The seed for this branching was always existent in Alison at the start of the game, and her personality nurtured it into growing these two different branches. However the threesome Alison is as far away from the Ian Alison that they could very well be in another Steins:Gate reality. They are backwards comparable, but not directly with each other.

Does this make any sense? What is your take on this?

Hi,selberdreher ! Interesting theory by you! I think you are both right and wrong here, depending on the character.
Take Lena: We can get a really nice, pleasant Lena, even on the slutty, Stan and Seymour-affine paths, but we can also get a narcistic, self-righteous, clearly unpleasant Lena on the "normal" paths, depending on choices made. This is near parallel universes, due to the extremly broad range of outcomes, considering Lena´starting personality.

In Alison´s case, this is nearly the same, but what many players (you included it seems) miss, is that you can shut down the "Jeremy-Alison" path completely, no matter if you pursue Alison or not, early in the game, maybe that´s because the choice which does this does not seem to affect much on fisrt look!

But generally the Alison we meet at game start is a friend who liked Ian already back in school, which was reciprociated by Ian, but both were too shy/oblivious to act on it. Alison´s current situation is one of frustration. She is really mobbed at work, similar to Ian, due to her straightforwardness (can be learned esp. if you have lunch with her) and had an overly jealous boyfriend, despite she was always loyal.
It is actually quite understandable that she wants to let off steam, have some fun and get her job and relationship status back in order.
And here is where our take on of Ian comes in. We can develop this starting situation in various ways. We can e.g. stay just good friends (we do not pursue Alison at all), we can become friends with benefits (pursuing Alison mainly for sex), we can become a "Voyeur-Ian" with the option to become a "Cuck Ian" (helping Jeremy pursue Alison, then pursuing her too), we can be an Ian who likes his girlfriends rather "wild" (letting Jeremy start with Alison, then pursuing her fully to get into a love relationship, but with the option to experiment) or we can be an Ian who finally recognises his old feelings for Alison (pursuing her right from the start, blocking Jeremy early on).
Alison likes Ian very much and prefers to be with him (and sgnals him up to a certain point, e.g. changing clothes style), but if Ian does not react, she is now at a point in her life where she does not want to wait all that much longer and acts on her own.

 

[sevensham]

when the latest update release?

 

[N0nsens3]

Is the Ivy path possible as Ian?

 

[Reaurt]

Is the Ivy path possible as Ian?

Not yet.

 

[N0nsens3]

Not yet.

Ok, thanks!

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

Folks, which one is 1, 2, 3, and 4? Walkthrough said 3 is the best, but I don't know which one.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Folks, which one is 1, 2, 3, and 4? Walkthrough said 3 is the best, but I don't know which one.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I'm not sure which is the best. It used to be the 3rd Image but the Remaster changed it. It's either 3rd or 4th one.

But I don't think it matters much which one you chose.