VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.4] [Eva Kiss]

[BlandChili]

In one sense I don’t mind that we can’t have sex with Holly as Lena if we’re dating Ian. The game makes decisions for us and put limitations on our actions all the time, and I understand the reasoning behind Holly’s special role to both Lena and Ian. But considering the scene is available in other playthroughs, and that the dialogue or Lena’s inner monologue doesn’t really adress why it shouldn’t be an option, I think it breaks the illusion that we’re in control of the scene.

One alternative would be to have the option to kiss Holly, but let her stop it because she knows Lena is dating Ian. Alternatively, and probably the better solution, would be to let Lena acknowledge that she feels attracted to Holly at that moment, but still realise that it would be wrong (if you’ve been faithful to Ian) or that it could have a lot of consequences. Maybe something will be added to it in the final version?

I see no reason why it couldn't work like Jeremy in last chapter, where if Ian expressed being in love with Lena he'll protest but ultimately give in.
Holly's scene with Lena could just play out in a similar fashion: The player is given the option to kiss Holly if the lena_go_holly variable allows for it, either Holly or Lena hesitates and the player is given the option to push forward.
The scenario where Holly is in a relationship with Ian will just have Holly reject the kiss outright and the scenario where Ian carries no role will play out like it does currently, with no rejection and no hesitation.
Then let the player, or Lena, or whatever get an option to reflect upon it later on, maybe even confess to Ian, have the confrontation scene take place the other way around!

What I’m struggling to understand is how this will affect the possible Lena/Ian/Holly throuple. If Eva’s planning on making that possible, I would think she’d have a clear plan for it. To remove the possibility of both of them being intimate with Holly, and doing it as a rather hasty decision between the Alpha and the Beta, gives the impression that she doesn’t have such a plan.

I have to admit that I often question if Eva does have a solid plan. I don't doubt she has ideas for where she wants the characters and stories to go, but she very much develops the plot as the story progresses.
Some writers can do it tactfully, Eva has GGGB that suggest she can too, ORS is a more ambitious project, only time will tell where it leads. I think she would benefit from at least making a flowchart for herself to direct her story somewhat, at least until act one and the fabled time skip.

Or who knows, maybe the plan for a throuple is to let Ian and Lena build their relationship further, and then having Holly involved further down the line?

I always imagined that the aspect of romance between Lena and Holly would be opened up before any direct confessions took place. I was wrong about that. Until this chapter Lena/Holly seemed very one sided, given Holly's blinding love for Ian.
I feel like Ian/Lena has been developed a lot already, at least as much as a non-formal relationship can be. If the intention is for them to agree to be a couple first then I think it has to happen soon for the timing to work.

I don’t know that much about the dynamics of polyamorous relationships in real life, but I’d imagine the third person is usually involved when the first two are already in an established relationship, rather than all three persons being a part of the relationship from the start?

I don't think you're wrong, but personally I actually have more experience with people that got involved like you describe at the end there.
As with any other relationships though, it varies greatly. I'm not polyamorous either, but I know people that are. There was a trio in the uni my wife went to that developed a romance and eventually a relationship like any other pair does, they just happened to be three people that went on dates together and confessed in the moonlight.
I think it's more common, and this is just my personal impression, that an individual enters into an established pair's relationship.

 

[Mpkstroff]

I see no reason why it couldn't work like Jeremy in last chapter, where if Ian expressed being in love with Lena he'll protest but ultimately give him.
Holly's scene with Lena could just play out in a similar fashion: The player is given the option to kiss Holly if the lena_go_holly variable allows for it, either Holly or Lena hesitates and the player is given the option to push forward.
The scenario where Holly is in a relationship with Ian will just have Holly reject the kiss outright and the scenario where Ian carries no role will play out like it does currently, with no rejection and no hesitation.
Then let the player, or Lena, or whatever get an option to reflect upon it later on, maybe even confess to Ian, have the confrontation scene take place the other way around!

This!!
Somehow you put my thought in coherent english

 

[BlandChili]

This!!
Somehow you put my thought in coherent english

My name is BlandChili. You wrote a comment. Prepare to be understood.

 

[Tarmogo]

...and that the dialogue or Lena’s inner monologue doesn’t really adress why it shouldn’t be an option, I think it breaks the illusion that we’re in control of the scene.

Exactly.

One alternative would be to have the option to kiss Holly, but let her stop it because she knows Lena is dating Ian. Alternatively, and probably the better solution, would be to let Lena acknowledge that she feels attracted to Holly at that moment, but still realise that it would be wrong (if you’ve been faithful to Ian) or that it could have a lot of consequences. Maybe something will be added to it in the final version?

Either of those options would work great imo and help to make it feel more grounded in the playthroughs where its applicable.

What I’m struggling to understand is how this will affect the possible Lena/Ian/Holly throuple. If Eva’s planning on making that possible, I would think she’d have a clear plan for it. To remove the possibility of both of them being intimate with Holly, and doing it as a rather hasty decision between the Alpha and the Beta, gives the impression that she doesn’t have such a plan.

In the long run I don't think it will effect the throuple route much at all assuming Eva's intention is for it to be a slow-burn build up. In the short term, it feels off because the game allows Ian to be able to sleep with Holly regardless of the dating situation, but Lena is unable to make the same "mistake" and there is no dialog/monologue indicating why. I definitely would not go so far to say this is an indication that she is lacking a plan, but rather an unfortunate side effect of having a branching story that is this complex.

I don’t know that much about the dynamics of polyamorous relationships in real life, but I’d imagine the third person is usually involved when the first two are already in an established relationship, rather than all three persons being a part of the relationship from the start?

I don't have any knowledge/experience with poly relationships either, but both scenarios you proposed sound reasonable to me.

 

[Tarmogo]

Holly's scene with Lena could just play out in a similar fashion: The player is given the option to kiss Holly if the lena_go_holly variable allows for it, either Holly or Lena hesitates and the player is given the option to push forward.
The scenario where Holly is in a relationship with Ian will just have Holly reject the kiss outright and the scenario where Ian carries no role will play out like it does currently, with no rejection and no hesitation.
Then let the player, or Lena, or whatever get an option to reflect upon it later on, maybe even confess to Ian, have the confrontation scene take place the other way around!

Couldn't agree with this more. Covers all bases and addresses all the potential scenarios in an understandable way.

I have to admit that I often question if Eva does have a solid plan. I don't doubt she has ideas for where she wants the characters and stories to go, but she very much develops the plot as the story progresses.
Some writers can do it tactfully, Eva has GGGB that suggest she can too, ORS is a more ambitious project, only time will tell where it leads. I think she would benefit from at least making a flowchart for herself to direct her story somewhat, at least until act one and the fabled time skip.

I don't doubt that she has a solid plan for the overall arcs of each plotline, but as you said I am sure many of the individual story decisions are made as she is developing the story to connect the larger dots. If she isn't using some sort of flowchart to track everything, than she is a madwoman lol.

 

[dundun]

EvaKiss has stated she is a 'gardener' kind of writer, someone who has a rough set of how the story plays out but characters and decisions can grow in unexpected directions. In her q&a she wrote " I have some fundamental plot-lines I know I want to develop and I go forward mixing the freedom of a sandbox that's organically developing and planning and interconnecting branches and scenes." and "I have several end scenarios already planned. How to get there and how long it'll take is another matter though, and much like with GGGB the development of the game will be an organic and on-going process."
So no, no exact plan .
The trouple path seems pretty much dead as for now, all the obvious paths to it were shot down. Maybe it was planned for later all along or it will come out of nowhere.

 

[BlandChili]

EvaKiss has stated she is a 'gardener' kind of writer, someone who has a rough set of how the story plays out but characters and decisions can grow in unexpected directions. In her q&a she wrote " I have some fundamental plot-lines I know I want to develop and I go forward mixing the freedom of a sandbox that's organically developing and planning and interconnecting branches and scenes." and "I have several end scenarios already planned. How to get there and how long it'll take is another matter though, and much like with GGGB the development of the game will be an organic and on-going process."
So no, no exact plan .
The trouple path seems pretty much dead as for now, all the obvious paths to it were shot down. Maybe it was planned for later all along or it will come out of nowhere.

It could be, I certainly think that it would only be fun narrative design if it can come about in several different ways too, although it certainly is daunting task to do it well too.

As long as the thing with Ian/Lena being a given, constantly getting referenced, and Holly's crush on Ian can also fucking end I would only encourage Eva to be adventurous with the writing.

Certainly not an easy thing, satisfying everyone.

 

[Tarmogo]

EvaKiss has stated she is a 'gardener' kind of writer, someone who has a rough set of how the story plays out but characters and decisions can grow in unexpected directions. In her q&a she wrote " I have some fundamental plot-lines I know I want to develop and I go forward mixing the freedom of a sandbox that's organically developing and planning and interconnecting branches and scenes." and "I have several end scenarios already planned. How to get there and how long it'll take is another matter though, and much like with GGGB the development of the game will be an organic and on-going process."
So no, no exact plan .

This style of writing is definitely what makes her games so enjoyable and fun to play.

The trouple path seems pretty much dead as for now, all the obvious paths to it were shot down. Maybe it was planned for later all along or it will come out of nowhere.

It certainly looks like it is dead for now, which is likely the point. Not unreasonable to think that trying to rush it quickly would have it backfire. We're still so early in the story/development of the game, so there is plenty of room for growth.

 

[Tarmogo]

Certainly not an easy thing, satisfying everyone.

That will always be impossible, so at the end of the day I hope Eva always goes with the choices she thinks are best for the story, instead of bending to what anyone else wants.

 

[BlandChili]

That will always be impossible, so at the end of the day I hope Eva always goes with the choices she thinks are best for the story, instead of bending to what anyone else wants.

Yeah sure, I don't think it does harm to listen to some of the audience mood, but ultimately I think Eva succeeds because she has her own ideas and doesn't always conform to traditional pornographic doctrine.

 

[Deleted member 958787]

Anyone got a way to access console commands? Seems like EvaKiss has blocked them with the release of 0.8. Dir() no longer works

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

EvaKiss has stated she is a 'gardener' kind of writer, someone who has a rough set of how the story plays out but characters and decisions can grow in unexpected directions. In her q&a she wrote " I have some fundamental plot-lines I know I want to develop and I go forward mixing the freedom of a sandbox that's organically developing and planning and interconnecting branches and scenes." and "I have several end scenarios already planned. How to get there and how long it'll take is another matter though, and much like with GGGB the development of the game will be an organic and on-going process."
So no, no exact plan .
The trouple path seems pretty much dead as for now, all the obvious paths to it were shot down. Maybe it was planned for later all along or it will come out of nowhere.

Totally understand wanting to leave her options open from a creativity perspective, since inspiration is highly unpredictable and doesn't always play well with confines (though sometimes it does). But with the complications of doing this in a branching 2-MC narrative... I can see where some of her struggles are coming from.

 

[BloodyMares]

Holly's scene with Lena could just play out in a similar fashion: The player is given the option to kiss Holly if the lena_go_holly variable allows for it, either Holly or Lena hesitates and the player is given the option to push forward.
The scenario where Holly is in a relationship with Ian will just have Holly reject the kiss outright and the scenario where Ian carries no role will play out like it does currently, with no rejection and no hesitation.

I thought about this as well. It would make sense, sure, and I actually was the one who proposed this idea to Eva first. The problem is, if Holly rejects Lena, this would change the status quo in a major way yet again, and it would get in the way of Eva's writing. It would undo all the progress and would make their relationship with Holly awkward once again, only this time Lena would have only herself to blame. Eva would need to add another variable (and Holly has more than 10 combinations already with all relationships involved) and write those scenes differently, or at least make their interactions a bit strained in the future chapters. I guess she could hand-wave it away with a throwaway sentence in Chapter 9 where Lena would say that despite her fears, after discussing it Holly, she was still willing to spend time together, and so everything was good once again, but that's not taking into consideration Ian's POV. Would he know about Lena's attempt and rejection? Would it impact his friendship with Holly and Lena? Or his relationship with Lena (the fact that you're both simping for the same girl is hard to ignore)? Would they still be sweet with each other when all 3 of them meet once again, or would they feel very awkward about what happened? The butterfly's effect is unpredictable like this. If the rejection doesn't get acknowledged again, then it would look like a plot hole. There's a reason why Lena couldn't talk to Jeremy in Chapter 8 if Ivy was the one who ended up blowing him, because there are a lot of variations to consider, so instead, Eva focused only on the branch where Lena completed the game, leaving the other branch to Louise.

In the long run I don't think it will effect the throuple route much at all assuming Eva's intention is for it to be a slow-burn build up. In the short term, it feels off because the game allows Ian to be able to sleep with Holly regardless of the dating situation, but Lena is unable to make the same "mistake" and there is no dialog/monologue indicating why. I definitely would not go so far to say this is an indication that she is lacking a plan, but rather an unfortunate side effect of having a branching story that is this complex.

Lena was the one who was on the moral high horse when discussing the Holly issue with Ian. If she's able to sleep with Holly while in a relationship with Ian, then she would be a massive hypocrite, which was the primary issue that started it all. She gave Ian shit for only kissing with Holly (that he didn't initiate) because she cares about Holly's emotional state (or she said she did), but then sleeping with Holly after that would compromise her own morality and logic, since it would not only make her problem with Ian a bit silly but also make Holly feel all sorts of confused and awkward around Ian who only rejected her because of his feelings for Lena. It would have to end up in a threesome to make sense, and that would be too easy. Eva's intent is to make you work for it, not make poor, selfish, and hypocritical choices and win in the end.

The trouple path seems pretty much dead as for now, all the obvious paths to it were shot down. Maybe it was planned for later all along or it will come out of nowhere.

Really? To me, the one path where Ian and Lena are dating, and Ian kissed Holly but then Lena forgave him seems to be the obvious throuple route. She even says "I can see why Holly likes you", making her more at ease about Ian. I'm guessing you don't see how Lena should be interested in Holly after that? Well, that's where lena_go_holly and v6_holly_kiss variables come to play. Lena is still interested in Holly, she's just isn't interesting in doing it the wrong, "Ian" way. If you look back on her actions with regards to Holly, she was always a bit careful with her, not rushing to do something that she might regret, because she doesn't want to break Holly's heart by rushing things without considering all the possibilities that might hurt Holly first.

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

I thought about this as well. It would make sense, sure, and I actually was the one who proposed this idea to Eva first. The problem is, if Holly rejects Lena, this would change the status quo in a major way yet again, and it would get in the way of Eva's writing. It would undo all the progress and would make their relationship with Holly awkward once again, only this time Lena would have only herself to blame. Eva would need to add another variable (and Holly has more than 10 combinations already with all relationships involved) and write those scenes differently, or at least make their interactions a bit strained in the future chapters. I guess she could hand-wave it away with a throwaway sentence in Chapter 9 where Lena would say that despite her fears, after discussing it Holly, she was still willing to spend time together, and so everything was good once again, but that's not taking into consideration Ian's POV. Would he know about Lena's attempt and rejection? Would it impact his friendship with Holly and Lena? Or his relationship with Lena (the fact that you're both simping for the same girl is hard to ignore)? Would they still be sweet with each other when all 3 of them meet once again, or would they feel very awkward about what happened? The butterfly's effect is unpredictable like this. If the rejection doesn't get acknowledged again, then it would look like a plot hole. There's a reason why Lena couldn't talk to Jeremy in Chapter 8 if Ivy was the one who ended up blowing him, because there are a lot of variations to consider, so instead, Eva focused only on the branch where Lena completed the game, leaving the other branch to Louise.

I agree about the complications to the writing in this scenario. I actually tried to make the same argument in my previous post, but I deleted it before posting because my explanation was a mess and not particularly convincing. So thanks for the well-worded presentation of this argument. This is also the reason why I think it would be a better solution – if there were to be any adjustments to the scene – to let Lena's inner monologue address her feelings for Holly.

We're at a point of the game where it's probably necessary for Eva to make some compromises to prevent the variables from spiralling completely out of control, and there's a few other scenes in the latest chapter that I think shows that as well. The Lena/Jeremy scene demands that we make a clear do it / don't do it choice, even though it probably could be a better scene, in my view, if there were some more hesitation first. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the sexting between Ian and Cherry won't happen if Lena and Ian are dating, even though there's no reason for it within the story. But the complications it would cause because of Lena's and Cherry's strained relationship, probably makes this the best solution. It's way better that Eva actually makes these compromises now rather than letting the story become so complicated that all the variables makes it impossible to handle further down the line. Some not completely optimal solutions are necessary to progress the story.

 

[dundun]

Really? To me, the one path where Ian and Lena are dating, and Ian kissed Holly but then Lena forgave him seems to be the obvious throuple route. She even says "I can see why Holly likes you", making her more at ease about Ian. I'm guessing you don't see how Lena should be interested in Holly after that? Well, that's where lena_go_holly and v6_holly_kiss variables come to play. Lena is still interested in Holly, she's just isn't interesting in doing it the wrong, "Ian" way. If you look back on her actions with regards to Holly, she was always a bit careful with her, not rushing to do something that she might regret, because she doesn't want to break Holly's heart by rushing things without considering all the possibilities that might hurt Holly first.

I agree that that looks like the most plausible route. But here both Ian and Lena can't go for Holly. They would have to agree to add her to their relationship. But they don't have a relationship to begin with, it is still forming, they are both cautiously testing the water. If they are not ready to commit to become a couple I'd think it's unlikely they'll be ready to add a third.
That is what I meant with 'for now'. But I have to admit I am not really an expert on 'throuples, the forming of'

 

[Cabot]

This argument got me thinking about examples of polyamory relationships, and throuples or love triangles in general, both historical and from fiction. And then I remembered “Jules et Jim”, the famous old Truffaut’s movie that ended tragically (with her throwing her car at the Seine with Jim inside).

What a cruel plot twist would be for Eva finally letting us have the trinity… Only to end in disaster, heh (well, maybe not that awful). Mind you, narratively speaking it could make sense, it’s a trope tried and true, and I wouldn’t put it past her...

 

[BlandChili]

Lena was the one who was on the moral high horse when discussing the Holly issue with Ian. If she's able to sleep with Holly while in a relationship with Ian, then she would be a massive hypocrite, which was the primary issue that started it all. She gave Ian shit for only kissing with Holly (that he didn't initiate) because she cares about Holly's emotional state (or she said she did), but then sleeping with Holly after that would compromise her own morality and logic, since it would not only make her problem with Ian a bit silly but also make Holly feel all sorts of confused and awkward around Ian who only rejected her because of his feelings for Lena. It would have to end up in a threesome to make sense, and that would be too easy. Eva's intent is to make you work for it, not make poor, selfish, and hypocritical choices and win in the end.

But isn't the issue that this logic applies to people who didn't kiss Holly as Ian too?

I got the impression from the discussion that the determining factor for Lena's options with Holly seem to be a variable, that sets Ian and Lena's dating status for each other, and this somehow assumes a specific mindset on Lena's part, that Lena is blocked from developing the Holly relationship only on this basis, even if Ian never kisses Holly, or never goes to the bookfair at all.
This combination of choices does not present the situation where Lena chastises Ian for his actions in regards to Holly in the first place, right? Thus only really making her a hypocrite when factoring in the player's metaknowledge of alternative game states.

This would probably not be a path to the throuple anyway, given that Ian would have to show interest in Holly for that to make sense too, but it seems odd that Lena would be blocked from a path where she is the one trying to get with both, because of an argument that never takes place.

 

[Tarmogo]

Lena was the one who was on the moral high horse when discussing the Holly issue with Ian. If she's able to sleep with Holly while in a relationship with Ian, then she would be a massive hypocrite, which was the primary issue that started it all. She gave Ian shit for only kissing with Holly (that he didn't initiate) because she cares about Holly's emotional state (or she said she did), but then sleeping with Holly after that would compromise her own morality and logic, since it would not only make her problem with Ian a bit silly but also make Holly feel all sorts of confused and awkward around Ian who only rejected her because of his feelings for Lena. It would have to end up in a threesome to make sense, and that would be too easy. Eva's intent is to make you work for it, not make poor, selfish, and hypocritical choices and win in the end.

First off I just want to commend you for your hard work on the walkthrough. Joined your Patreon the other day to throw you a few bucks for the effort.

Now in regards to this conversation, Lena is only a hypocrite if IanxHolly actually occurs. In a playthrough where Ian never goes with Holly, that confrontation scene between Ian and Lena never happens, so Lena initiating a scene with Holly would not be hypocritical in any way. Lena would then just be making the same "mistake" that Ian has the option to make, which could then lead to a potential confrontation in the reverse of the other one. Now continuing under the assumption that IanxHolly never occurred, the fact that LenaxHolly is blocked by 'ian_lena_dating=true' (regardless of the situation with IanxHolly) becomes troublesome since the game still presents the player with the option to pursue Holly as Lena through the lena_go_holly variable, as well as presenting options for Lena to think of Holly while masturbating which implies sexual feelings. Thus there is a disconnect with preventing the LenaxHolly scene, since under the circumstances I mentioned (Lena has sexual feelings toward Holly and she can't be a hypocrite towards Ian) there is no reason portrayed by the game why it shouldn't/can't occur. If the idea that Lena does not want to hurt Holly/complicate things with her is the reason (which I agree it is), then there should be some in game reference to that to indicate that is the reason.

 

[Tarmogo]

But isn't the issue that this logic applies to people who didn't kiss Holly as Ian too?

Preciously. The logic of Lena being a hypocrite does not apply if Holly and Ian never happened.

Thus only really making her a hypocrite when factoring in the player's metaknowledge of alternative game states.

Exactly. The disparate game states do not exist and influence each other simultaneously in one playthrough, so outside metaknowledge should not be applied between them imo.

 

[MyStupidPornAccount]

Like people have said it also makes no sense when you consider she can get with mike or jeremy who are both in relationships and she doesn't care at all seemingly