VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.4] [Eva Kiss]

[dav121]

October

Hopefully a Halloween special!

 

[jduk]

Are you blind? Louise insists on prancing around half naked in front of Stan, she leaves her door open when she has sex and she is extra loud just to make sure Stan can hear everything. And then the constant taunting. She even dropped her panties in his room (the whole Lola story doesn't make any sense) so she could accuse him. She is basically begging him to take her!

Yeah that little slut wants to tease him and bait him into fucking her ...

 

[GodovasikTugoserya]

Stan wouldn't say no to banging Louise, the dude is so desperate that it'd be consensual, even if she humiliates him verbally in the process (unless I underestimate his dignity). Stan "hatefucking" Louise can never be consensual i.e. is impossible unless she's drunk, drugged, blindfolded, or otherwise tricked. Louise is disgusted by Stan and isn't even attracted to him. The only consensual sex scenario I can picture between Stan and Louise is the one initiated by Louise for various reasons (guilt + newfound appreciation that ends up in a romantic attraction OR sexual frustration mixed with disgust which makes her develop some sort of kink, etc).

To reiterate, hatefucking needs to have a mutual desire, even if both participants can't stand each other in terms of personality but are attracted to each other sexually. This is why the only hatefucking I can imagine is the one initiated by Louise because then it means they both desire each other (Stan ogled Louise several times implying that he'd like to fuck her if she presents him the opportunity).

Well, you do raise a valid point. But, I still get some vides that you're trying to justify female dominance or paint pardon for female rapists.
Though in my opinion, there is a very possible scenario of Stan comparing Louise to Lena and finding former to be disgusting slut. Therefore, no real desire for her. Possible, Stan will even further distance himself.
I'd say that bot Stan and Louise have very little ground to ever get intimate. Honestly, I'd bet on Stan x Holly, if Ian doesn't go Holly route. That could be pretty interesting.

And yeah, about hatefucking. This is where I do completely agree with you, that hatefucking requires some sort of attraction (however twisted it might be) or conviction that doing so is a right thing.
Further discussing what is rape and what is not, is probably a topic for completely different thread.

 

[Zedire]

lot of the previous posts regarding Seymour's stats is a bit over focus on the idea of intelligence. Arguing the flawed view of philosophy and etc. Over looking the basic facts and traits of the character. That is he is politically connected and economically successful; dont get that way without some kind of smarts.

More importantly; the man is a manipulator. Now maybe Eva didnt do it quiet that well, the reception is debatable and subjective, but that is the point of the interactions with him thus far is suppose to convey.

The man is of means and able to use it and can do so directly and indirectly and should not be taken lightly. Least thats my take on the character thus far in the story.

Also, the dialogue over the philiosphy (forgot who exactly) is mainly to convey how that character views things. Right or wrong.

I don't think anyone was overlooking the "basic facts and traits of the character"; none of these things are exactly hidden or hard to decipher (and we've discussed them in the past anyway) - but execution matters a lot.

As a writer, it's incredibly important to get the execution right when showcasing how a character views and deals with their world. If it's not done right, it's simply not believable, and the character comes across as a phony. If that hadn't been the case, you wouldn't have gotten so many people thinking Seymour was 'fake smart' and being surprised when he was actually meant to be smart; we might tell ourselves that a character is meant to be a certain way because it's what the author was going for, but we can't fool our subconscious that picks up on the obvious flaws that go against the image. That little demonstration of philosophy would cut it for a 20-something year old that had just ventured in to philosophy, but no so much the 50-something world-wise, master manipulator and business tycoon who had probably studied philosophy for years and shaped himself and his world around his findings.

A guy like Seymour who has probably been testing and manipulating people in just such a way for years would be far more subtle and refined in his approach, and he'd be an incredibly keen observer (and very skilled with reading body language). If he believes that Lena might be useful to his plans, he almost certainly wouldn't just come out and ask her some big philosophical question - certainly not over dinner at the stage when he's still trying to hook her.
He'd be far more likely to test her and feel her out through what she chooses to talk about (keep her comfortable and more likely to reveal things with subtle prodding), using his charm to distract from things getting too serious, intrigue her with a show of subtle (fake) vulnerability to appear more human and relatable (closer to her level - someone she could form an agreeable relationship with), and give her only enough information about himself that he remains this mystery she'll want to solve (keep her coming back for more). After all, he's not doing this for her benefit, and it's not for us as the reader - if she's someone he determines is useful to his plans, he wants to know exactly who he's dealing with so he can manipulate her at every step and never allow her the opportunity to undermine him as he uses her. He didn't get to where he was employing all the psychological subtlety of a bull in a china shop.

If the readers don't sense anything from that then it's good, if they sense something feels a little suspicious but they can't pinpoint it, even better. If they figure him out, that's fine too, as long as it still feels authentic. Of course, readers have a context that Lena doesn't, so it makes sense that we'll always be a little suspicious of a character's motives when they seem a little too perfect.

Anyway, embodying someone who is so different to you as the writer (as I'm guessing Eva is to Seymour) is not an easy thing. There is a reason why good and/or highly acclaimed writers often put crazy amounts of time into researching their book, or go and live in the country were they've set the book while they're writing it - they want the authenticity to seep in every part of their work. If you're writing of a foreign place or a character very unlike yourself (in personality and/or experiences), and you're not going to put the effort into researching to make it feel authentic, you're compromising your work. Some writers might not have a problem with that (although most writers do - it will sit in your mind and not let you sleep from the knowledge that you're letting yourself down, and you will always know), but their reader's will.

Of course, nobody is expecting Eva to read and ruminate over a ton of books on philosophy or what have you, but that's why less detail and writing cleverly is so important. Give Seymour the illusion of intelligence by alluding to it indirectly. He doesn't need to talk like a big brain, and he's probably unlikely to get that technical in the presence of people 'beneath him' (or outside of his ruthless world) anyway, considering his desire to appeal to them on their level and so manipulate them effectively.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

Spoiler

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I don't know. Sometimes the old saying is true. "If you want something done right you've gotta do it yourself, as long as you're limber and have a long enough penis." - Abraham Lincoln, I think.

Put on The Greatest Love Of All. Light some candles. Break out the personal pizza. Cheap date that always puts out and is never stingy with the tongue action.

I mean, you jack off, right? So does that mean you enjoy giving handjobs?

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I just realized i don’t see the blonde queen since february, 7 months. I Miss you, come back even Hotter and ready to be fucked harder.

'Oh yes, cartoon drawing of my dreams. It has been way too long since I've masturbated to your renders, my sweet queen.'

[Parents] *Knock Knock* "Who are you talking to in there?"

'My GIRLFRIEND. STFU MOM! We're in love and we'll be together forever.'

[Mom] *sigh of relief, turning to father*. [Whispers] "thank god, harold. I thought he'd never date anyone." *Parents go downstairs to watch The Price Is Right*.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

That was… definitely not the point I was trying to make, but I should have seen it coming.

Guy in the crowd: "That's our Jduk". *Everybody laughs*.

 

[DDDIsReal]

'Oh yes, cartoon drawing of my dreams. It has been way too long since I've masturbated to your renders, my sweet queen.'

[Parents] *Knock Knock* "Who are you talking to in there?"

'My GIRLFRIEND. STFU MOM! We're in love and we'll be together forever.'

[Mom] *sigh of relief, turning to father*. [Whispers] "thank god, harold. I thought he'd never date anyone." *Parents go downstairs to watch The Price Is Right*.

Cindy exist in real life, she’s a pornostar(can’t remember the name) but she reminds me more to my dream girl Ester Exposito, she’s even hotter(and less fucked). So i only need to make her my gf not create her from nothing, one step ahead.

 

[Echbert]

Imagine if, after this timeskip that's meant to happen (providing it's a decent chunk of time), Stan does an almost complete 180 turn. Tired of being overlooked or pitied by the girls around him, and somewhat disgusted with his position in life, he decides on some self-improvement. He moves out (for the surprise factor later), starts going to the gym, makes some friends who aren't total nerds, and gets a makeover. By the time he comes back he's a big improvement from what he once was, and with his new look and more confidence, someone who could be worth considering by some girls.

I highly doubt that would happen, or that Eva cares enough about Stan (in comparison to other characters) to put that kind of time into him, but I do think it would be kinda interesting. Seeing as a bunch of other characters have growth paths, and who knows what transformations along the way, it wouldn't be the craziest idea if the player's choices could influence that. I mean, when you look at Stan he doesn't look great, but facial-feature wise he's not hideous, and he doesn't have a complete deadbeat personality, either (yet).

But yeah, I don't hate Stan. I actually care more about Stan then I do no-personality Jeremy, and I hope he isn't resigned to simply being the stereotypical creep/peeper/perv with no greater aspiration within the story, or to go further down that path and become a complete Simp, White Knight, or Incel. I mean, I think it would be great if the player had the choice to influence his outcome one way or another.

Also, I think a made-over/timeskip Stan and Holly would be kind of cute.

Problem with your idea is it would change Stan too much and he would loose much of his "unique charm" becoming just like the other dudes. Another problem is this arc would be too similar to Ash's father or Erik from GGGB, which i don't think Eva wants to repeat(hence why Stan has the trait of being an actual creep unlike them). Any growth would probably focus on his personality, Photography and just his relationship with Lena where they learn more about each other and get closer, which can develop from there into something Voyeur-like(focusing on Lena's kink of being watched/desired) or wholesome.


I would be open to your change as long as it's an option parallel to the options above, though i don't think it will happen as each character seems to exist within a certain bubble and focus on specific kinks.

 

[slightchance]

Problem with your idea is it would change Stan too much and he would loose much of his "unique charm" becoming just like the other dudes.

Eva has written Stan into a corner, sadly, and went overboard with his neckbeard vibes. It's very unlikely that a guy with his character traits shares a flat with two girls when one of them outright hates him. Making him a mute was a mistake.

 

[dogedoge]

Imagine if, after this timeskip that's meant to happen (providing it's a decent chunk of time), Stan does an almost complete 180 turn. Tired of being overlooked or pitied by the girls around him, and somewhat disgusted with his position in life, he decides on some self-improvement. He moves out (for the surprise factor later), starts going to the gym, makes some friends who aren't total nerds, and gets a makeover. By the time he comes back he's a big improvement from what he once was, and with his new look and more confidence, someone who could be worth considering by some girls.

Since Eva hasn't posted Stan's card yet, I'm starting to think he's not going to go far in the story.

 

[Wtershee]

....I don't think anyone was overlooking the "basic facts and traits of the character"; none of these things are exactly hidden or hard to decipher (and we've discussed them in the past anyway) - but execution matters a lot. .....
....Of course, nobody is expecting Eva to read and ruminate over a ton of books on philosophy or what have you, but that's why less detail and writing cleverly is so important. Give Seymour the illusion of intelligence by alluding to it indirectly. He doesn't need to talk like a big brain, and he's probably unlikely to get that technical in the presence of people 'beneath him' (or outside of his ruthless world) anyway, considering his desire to appeal to them on their level and so manipulate them effectively......

yes, saw the posts
.....no doing a tldr....its more too much to respond to and gonna just respond to the selected parts

......you're basically saying what im saying in a more broaden manner. Yeah, it aint hard; yeah, execution matter (but that is more subjective on how effective it was carried out).

As to the overlooking; there are some, wouldn't have posted if it wasn't.
That lot of them hyper focused and critical on the idea of him being fake or display of 'illusion' of intelligence and generally on the idea how that dialogue on philosophy. Arguing more on the position of the readers or viewers of the real world and of that to the characters or the world of the story being peered into.

.....less detail and writing cleverly....Wouldn't bother with people beneath him....
that argument is more subjective determination for readers and Lena wouldn't get the whole philosophical dialogue.
Its a handful of dialogue between the main antagonist and the main female protagonist for about a quarter of the scene. Any lesser and it be a footnote mention 'I like X for Y and you?' then moving on after response and not this guy is measuring Lena and doing his personal peacock act. It mainly serves for the reader to understand right from the back that Seymour likes to show off his mental prowess to gauge people and get over on them.

Appeal to them? People who think they are better then others, and manipulates them to their will, don't appease them to a level that they look down toward. That is weakness and goes against how Seymour views things. Especially considering the plot development thus far regarding with the whole housing development controversy.

 

[Echbert]

Eva has written Stan into a corner, sadly, and went overboard with his neckbeard vibes. It's very unlikely that a guy with his character traits shares a flat with two girls when one of them outright hates him. Making him a mute was a mistake.

unlikely in situation where it's two normally experienced girls, and they have agency, but other than that not all that unlikely:
it's unlikely in a situation where it's two women with normal life experience, and they have agency, but other than that you would be surprised how common it can be:

• their both in their early-mid twenties, living in a fairly well of city, and largely working low end jobs, rent is going to be expensive, so their going to take any nice place they can get, especially since it's temporary.
• Louise might hate him, but she doesn't seem to have much choice finance wise
• The landlord is largely going to determine who lives there, and unless they know them personally their not going to have much say in the matter.
• In a scenario where they do have agency they might be so desperate for another roomate, and Stan was one of the only ppl willing to pay the rent.
• Lena is pretty naive(very similar to Ash from GGGB but a bit more mature), while a normal woman would see Stan as a threat, Lena sees him as sad and feels sorry for him.
• Stan is very subdued so while he gives creep vibes he comes of as more pathetic anyway.

I don't think he was straight up written into a corner, but do think him getting caught "rubbing a couple out" to Lena's pics was a bad idea, i just don't see a scenario in which she would be okay with working with him again, unless she's kind of slutty or into dangerous situations(should have been implied instead, with a bit of dramatic irony). Nonetheless Eva's pretty much established him in the story, and even confronted some of the issues narratively(Lena having a "everybody does it i guess" appraoch to them catching him), so she can move forward with him without worrying about all of this.

What do you mean making him mute?

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

unlikely in situation where it's two normally experienced girls, and they have agency, but other than that not all that unlikely:
it's unlikely in a situation where it's two women with normal life experience, and they have agency, but other than that you would be surprised how common it can be:

• their both in their early-mid twenties, living in a fairly well of city, and largely working low end jobs, rent is going to be expensive, so their going to take any nice place they can get, especially since it's temporary.
• Louise might hate him, but she doesn't seem to have much choice finance wise
• The landlord is largely going to determine who lives there, and unless they know them personally their not going to have much say in the matter.
• In a scenario where they do have agency they might be so desperate for another roomate, and Stan was one of the only ppl willing to pay the rent.
• Lena is pretty naive(very similar to Ash from GGGB but a bit more mature), while a normal woman would see Stan as a threat, Lena sees him as sad and feels sorry for him.
• Stan is very subdued so while he gives creep vibes he comes of as more pathetic anyway.

I don't think he was straight up written into a corner, but do think him getting caught "rubbing a couple out" to Lena's pics was a bad idea, i just don't see a scenario in which she would be okay with working with him again, unless she's kind of slutty or into dangerous situations(should have been implied instead, with a bit of dramatic irony). Nonetheless Eva's pretty much established him in the story, and even confronted some of the issues narratively(Lena having a "everybody does it i guess" appraoch to them catching him), so she can move forward with him without worrying about all of this.

What do you mean making him mute?

Agreed. But

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[Zedire]

I don't think Stan was written into a corner; absolutely anyone can have their 'wake up'/moment of revelation leading to a proactive change, providing they actually have the true desire and will to change - willpower is everything. Often that moment only comes when said person has sunken to certain low, following repeated failures, and they finally see themselves for what they are and can't deny it anymore.

In the context of writing that moment of revelation is often referred to as 'meeting the goddess' - the pivotal point for change where the truth is laid bare. Following that point they either head for change because they don't want to live this way anymore, or they decide they can't be bothered putting in the effort and go absolutely nowhere. In stories that realization and the desire to change can come too late to 'save' some characters (a character's 'tragic' plot-line - their dreams go unfulfilled). Technically it's still early days in Stan's story though, so that doesn't apply here yet.

Interestingly, that proactive change can work for both Stan's 'reform' path AND a 'depraved' path - it's just a matter of how Stan chooses direct his energy. The depraved path differs from the opportunistic perv/voyeur because Stan chooses to actually take some control of his situation rather then just taking whatever scraps are thrown his way like a totally pathetic loser. Both paths would require Stan to gain a little more confidence though - perhaps by going further down the friendship path with Lena.

Do I think that will happen, all things considered? Probably not, but it would be nice for Stan to have a chance for something better though (IMO).

 

[Badboll]

That doesn't make any sense

It makes perfect sense to me, though I might be a little bit biased considering where I am from

 

[Badboll]

unlikely in situation where it's two normally experienced girls, and they have agency, but other than that not all that unlikely:
it's unlikely in a situation where it's two women with normal life experience, and they have agency, but other than that you would be surprised how common it can be:

• their both in their early-mid twenties, living in a fairly well of city, and largely working low end jobs, rent is going to be expensive, so their going to take any nice place they can get, especially since it's temporary.
• Louise might hate him, but she doesn't seem to have much choice finance wise
• The landlord is largely going to determine who lives there, and unless they know them personally their not going to have much say in the matter.
• In a scenario where they do have agency they might be so desperate for another roommate, and Stan was one of the only ppl willing to pay the rent.
• Lena is pretty naive(very similar to Ash from GGGB but a bit more mature), while a normal woman would see Stan as a threat, Lena sees him as sad and feels sorry for him.
• Stan is very subdued so while he gives creep vibes he comes of as more pathetic anyway.

I don't think he was straight up written into a corner, but do think him getting caught "rubbing a couple out" to Lena's pics was a bad idea, i just don't see a scenario in which she would be okay with working with him again, unless she's kind of slutty or into dangerous situations(should have been implied instead, with a bit of dramatic irony). Nonetheless Eva's pretty much established him in the story, and even confronted some of the issues narratively(Lena having a "everybody does it i guess" approach to them catching him), so she can move forward with him without worrying about all of this.

What do you mean making him mute?

I always thought Stan was the owner of the apartment and the girls are renting from him and then he pays the bills. I don't know if that's been cleared up, but it would make sense to me. At least he's the one whos name is on the contract. I mean the other loser in the game is the mayors son

 

[BloodyMares]

I always thought Stan was the owner of the apartment and the girls are renting from him and then he pays the bills. I don't know if that's been cleared up, but it would make sense to me. At least he's the one whos name is on the contract. I mean the other loser in the game is the mayors son

It's unclear if he's actually the owner, but he's definitely the one renting the place to them (perhaps he wanted someone to help with the rent and lucked out on having Lena and Louise willing to live with him. That's why they can't just kick him out (unless they personally know the owner who might side with them) even though Louise would love that, but they can't really afford to move out for now (unless each of them finds a stable boyfriend who has their own place).

 

[LazyName]

I think Stan is just supposed to be the stereotypical tech nerd who has a high paying job so he can more than afford rent which is contrasted with Lena who doesnt have the best or most stable income and Louise who is a college student. Whether he owns the apartment or not Stan is definitely the one who can most reliably afford the bills.

 

[Badboll]

It's unclear if he's actually the owner, but he's definitely the one renting the place to them (perhaps he wanted someone to help with the rent and lucked out on having Lena and Louise willing to live with him. That's why they can't just kick him out (unless they personally know the owner who might side with them) even though Louise would love that, but they can't really afford to move out for now (unless each of them finds a stable boyfriend who has their own place).

Well at the current version of the game, Lena could 100% move out, Ian, Axel and Robert would take her in depending on how you play Lena and Ian. Louise is for sure in a tighter spot with only Jeremy who would ditch her as fast as she tries to say can i move in