aris666
Member
- Jan 6, 2020
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Meh.. a lot of other simple female MC corruption games (Japanese). ORS is something a bit different at least (with two MCs)
- Thread starter Eva Kiss
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CoalPhelps
Active Member
- Aug 19, 2018
- 550
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Jeez, okay, I give up, this Canto dude is really some kind of alien AI or whatever.
- Aug 5, 2016
- 5,231
- 14,603
I doubt she will do something similar to GGGB again. GGGB was her first game, she was full of ideas and without any creative barriers. ORS is a more ambitious project, from the beginning it has been a product for Steam and other platforms.
Steam can ban your game for any bullshit they don't want in their platform, so devs must be careful with their content. Also to appeal to the mass market you have to water down your work.
dolfe67
Forum Fanatic
- Apr 25, 2020
- 5,421
- 15,138
It would be a shame if she self-censored for this reason... at least without patch. Incest ok, but could the blackmail with Seymour be toned down because of steam? and the drug gang plot line in gggb is not steam compatible for ex?
- Aug 5, 2016
- 5,231
- 14,603
In GGGB you can play as a damsel in distress in some rapey situations while here Lena plays an active role accepting or rejecting Seymour advances.
Still Idk about how Steam evaluate games because they can ban some vanilla games just because the tits are small or some other idiocy.
_Zebra_
Member
- Jun 24, 2017
- 198
- 831
That is also a good a bad thing. GGGB was not a linear game, it had plenty of options but each update had a constant development cycle. Each month there was something new. Sure, sometimes you would get a scene with good Ash and other times with Gang Ash. Was anyone bother by that? Probably not. Now why do I think finishing GGGB can be considered a bad thing. Because you already proved that you can handle this type of game. If she successfully managed that game variables, she can do the same with this one.
Do you think the variables rebel against their creator and that is why you need to control them? What do you find so difficult to change a boolean variable or to increment the value of the numerical ones(lust, charm, etc)? Ok ... this wasn't very polite, but this narrative that "people have no idea what they are talking about and that the game is more COMPLEX" is starting to get to me. Nobody has to go through the game in order to find out what variable did what. They are all listed in the master_script.rpy file with comments that clearly explain what they do.
Guys yes, complex looks like a good argument, but it's really not. I started this message by talking about GGGB and it's not fare to compare the too games. You can't expect an update every month because the art has improved, the writing is better and you also have 2 MC. But let's compare ORS with ORS. More exactly Chapter 6 with Chapter 9. Chapter 6 was advanced enough that nobody will say that it was linear like the first chapter (even though I don't agree at all with the statement that chapter one was an easy chapter; that is where each character was drawn and created), so let's compare the scenes.
Legend: Green = full scene, Yellow = minor scene, Red = no scene
Ian x Alison - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ian x Cherry - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ian x Cindy - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9 (x2 photo shoot & bedroom)
Ian x Emma - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ian x Holly - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ian x Minerva - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ian x Lena - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Lena x Axel - Chapter 6(2nd part of photo shoot) - Chapter 9 (x2 photo shoot & bedroom)
Lena x Seymour - Chapter 6(1st part of photo shoot) - Chapter 9
Lena x Mike - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Lena x Robert - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Lena x Holly - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Lena x Louise - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Lena Solo - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Jeremy x Alison - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Jeremy x Emma - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Jeremy x Louise - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Lena Stalkfap - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ivy Stalkfap - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
Ivy x Holly - Chapter 6 - Chapter 9
P.S. Yes I know that some scenes were added later, after the final version of the chapters was initially released; for example Jeremy x Louise in Ch 6 and Lena Stalkfap in Ch 9)
Total
Chapter 6 => around 12 scenes with at least 2-3 images
Chapter 9 => around 14 scenes with at least 2-3 images
I don't try to say that chapter 9 wasn't bigger, but not by much in terms of scenes. The idea that it's normal to take twice as much time to develop it is wrong. The story moved forward just as much and almost both chapter touched upon each game path.
So please stop promoting this false idea that the game is more complex now than it was at the end of 2020. Use something else, say that is harder to write because of writer block or say that each chapter got bigger even though it was not needed. Or go batshit crazy and throw something like: maybe Eva became a mother last year and she had to spend time with a new born. I don't know!
If you think I am not right, by all means, show me that I am wrong.
I sometimes want to know or if I think about not really
want to know who rates games at Steam for publishing. We see this with adult/18+ games for German Steam, which is all over the place what becomes available. For instance, the second part of "Max bigger bust" has no sex, is very tame and a comic art VN, since it is a spoof, but is unavailable on German steam! Luckily "Hitman"(where you play an assassin) and "AIShoujo" are available, but "Honey Select" (same base as AiS) is not. There are two japanese VNs with even unpatched rather hot stuff in them and no problem getting these. On the other hand games like "Deliverance" or "Living with Temptation" are not available too. Completely over the place on Steam what is acceptable and what is not.
JohnnyKiss
Active Member
- Oct 1, 2017
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It's kinda wild to think that there might be a 2 years difference between the releases of Chapter 9 (2021) and Chapter 10 (2023).
You seem to think VNs are basically the summation of their scenes or something. You realize there are things like game states to consider in a story that has this many calls for the variables/flags and interconnected characters?
Just based on the story, Chapter 9 has way more plot altering situations and variations than Chapter 6. The story could more or less just march forward regardless of your choices (minor variations or skip scene is enough) in the earlier parts. That's because the game didn't commit to anything significant yet. Everything was in the courting or FWB phase.
Now at the end of Chapter 9, we have the culmination of important character/story affecting decisions that all reached a convergence point. Ian x Lena couple or not. Possible cheating on either side. Lena falling for Seymour vs blackmail. Then there are a huge amount of individual couplings for Ian and Lena that reached a point of commitment. These are things that you can't just skip and continue the story if you are not on their route or something. It impacts the overall game state and needs to be planned out meticulously.
Like seriously, just take a second and try to brainstorm an overall scenario going forward and how you will account for all the different combinations of choices from 2 protagonists. You can't. Because your whole focus is on the number of scenes. It was obvious that Eva herself was having trouble reigning it in. That's why the remaster seemed appropriate to her. And that's probably why it's taking forever. Just planning, brainstorming, storyboarding, and paving the path forward is a huge logical puzzle. Not to mention the actual implementation of it.
Reducing the chapters to the number of scenes is really something else lol. If you want mindless sex scenes, there are other games. You presumably like this game for something more than just a scene gallery. The art and writing for the sex scenes are probably the easiest parts for this development cycle. Planning the routes and pruning the unnecessary bits while keeping the consistency of the characters and plot in all the various game states seems like a goddamn nightmare. I wouldn't even be surprised if she got writer's block and/or analysis paralysis for a while there.
It's certainly taking longer than one might expect, but the development of most games that enables a large number of game states slows down at some point. And this one is doing it with 2 protagonists with their own POVs.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Major choices create new paths Eva has to work into new chapters even if no sex scene is available since the MCs interact with everybody. I'm not trying to defend Eva by any means necessary but the criticism gets a bit harsh sometimes (not talking about you). Kudos for your scene list, would be interesting to see one for all chapters!
Eponym
Newbie
- Nov 13, 2018
- 40
- 31
I get that development can have issues pop up. Excited for my art to be in the game.
RoboticCatDogHybrid
Member
- Jul 13, 2022
- 220
- 359
Just like Dave Chapelle was like come on titty, come on titty in that one car commercial bro. I'm like the same way for the next chapter for this game being released this year bros haha.
_Zebra_
Member
- Jun 24, 2017
- 198
- 831
I talked about the major scenes because they are driven by the major choices of the game. Of course there are other variables that slightly change the tone and the dialog of a scene. They were present in each chapter ever since chapter 2. It's not like in chapter 6 we got this mindless sex scenes, that were straight forward and easy to write, while in chapter 9 we got something completely different. I won't try to do in depth comparison between the two. What would be the point? Just to write this incredible and detailed post that will be forgotten in a day after another page of "any news?" and "happy to wait" comments appears.
Also I don't choose to ignore the fact that in chapter 9 there are more variables available. It's normal to have more, but not all of them are used. Some are relevant in the next chapter and after that are completely forgotten. Or not forgotten. They are replaced by something else. Someone pointed out to me a while ago, and rightful so , that there is small to none chance that a decision made in chapter 2 will have a great impact on something that will happen in chapter 12 for example.
How do you know that I can't do that? As a general rule, it's better to not assume things about people that you don't know. Anyway. Let's think at a scene that will most likely be part of the next chapter: Ian x Alison x Jeremy. I said most likely because it could also be Emma. How would you manage this scene ? I would proceed like this: I would write the first variation, where Ian and Alison have a serious relationship. After that I will go back and change a few thing here and there for the casual relationship scenario and so on for other stuff (creampie in ch9, Ian relationships with other character Lena, Cherry, etc.). You always go back and change some things without overdoing it. Usually it's one extra line there, 4-5 someplace else.
This is an example for a larger scene, but what about the others. Why do you think that you can't ignore the deal with Seymour in the next update? A phone call between the two or some inner thoughts are enough. Same can be said about other characters. Lena could go to a movie with Robert in chapter 10 and only that. There is no need to have a sex scene with him in each chapter. Same can be said about Ian and Holly or Cherry or even Lena. I know that they are the MCs, but with the exception of the park scene, the others are more or less the same. Would it be the end of the world if we wouldn't get something in a chapter, just so the workload can be managed? Keep it simple! (p.s. simple doesn't mean mindless)
One last thing, you view chapter 9 as a chapter that opened so many other paths without taking into consideration that it closed some of them too. You can't have a relationship with Lena if she showed interest in Jeremy. You can't have a serious relationship with Cherry if you are with Lena. Or with Mike, or with Cindy, or with Holly... Danny is pretty out of the game, or that other guy. List goes on. Eva did a great job to make sure that she won't have an endless list of scenarios. Why would it be a nightmare to keep track of things ? Especially when you have the previous experience of doing exactly this.
Canto Forte
Post Pro
- Jul 10, 2017
- 21,897
- 27,159
Jeremy does not do relationships, the guy shags and forgets,
so interest is just a shag and bye.
Bartender shag a lot love you not.
we will get a continuation for the adventures, that is for certain.
so interest is just a shag and bye.
Bartender shag a lot love you not.
Too late for no content: Dev has already finished half the content already,
we will get a continuation for the adventures, that is for certain.
Amahl Farouk
Well-Known Member
- May 13, 2018
- 1,374
- 2,536
This huge delay was predicted right from the moment it was announced that there would be 2 playable protagonists
Eva is maybe the best, or certainly very close to it, developer currently making games.
I wish she would just split the game into two pieces, one for each character, I really feel for her in this situation because it is turning into a witch hunt, if the majority of folks had any idea just how hard it is to put this together and keep it working they would be a whole lot more patient, but in the end the concept is flawed and it is this that is making the development time go insane
Eva is maybe the best, or certainly very close to it, developer currently making games.
I wish she would just split the game into two pieces, one for each character, I really feel for her in this situation because it is turning into a witch hunt, if the majority of folks had any idea just how hard it is to put this together and keep it working they would be a whole lot more patient, but in the end the concept is flawed and it is this that is making the development time go insane
Doppelgang
Member
- Jul 5, 2022
- 149
- 840
I'm all for Eva being pragmatic and keeping things as simple as possible within what's reasonable, but I think you're oversimplifying a bit here. Not everyone needs a scene, that's true. And it's easy to either not include Robert or give him a scene that doesn't impact any of the other paths. (That, however, depends on whether Eva keeps to what seems to be the plan, that Robert is out of the picture if Lena and Ian are in a relationship. And I think it's generally better if some of the sex scenes are mutually exclusive, which makes our choices more important and impactful. But yes, he can be kept out of the episode, or he can have a sex scene that doesn't significantly affect the rest of story.)
But what about Seymour? Eva can limit his interaction with Lena to a phone call and some interior monologue on her part afterwards. I don't think anyone is arguing that every character needs a scene in each chapter, but still it would just delay things until chapter 11. And in that case Eva will probably also have to tip-toe her way around the issue when writing chapter 10, because of how important it is to the story—which could eventually lead to more work than if she just starts dealing with it now.
The thing is that Lena's deal with Seymour doesn't just affect the relationship between the two of them. It also affects Lena's relationship to all the other photographers, and her job at the café, the restaurant and on Stalkfap. And Seymour's threaths also involve Ian and his career at the magazine and the writing contest. And if Lena rejects the deal, it will probably open up some other work related options that won't otherwise be available. (How could she otherwise afford a tramp stamp, nipple piercings and more horse sized dildos?
)Also it will probably affect the relationship between Lena and Ian. Does she tell him about the deal with Seymour? And if so, how does Ian react? Will it differ depending on whether the relationship is open or exclusive? And if Lena doesn't tell him about it, will he eventually find out? Or will Seymour even tell him about it, to show his dominance and clear away one of the obstacles that stands between him and Lena?
It's not like all of these issues have to be handled in chapter 10, but eventually I think they will, and to me that sounds extremely complex, and something that demands some serious planning on how it will all play out, in which order, and how one thing affects the other. Looking at the variations of a particular scene is useful, but it's not even close to illustrating the overall complexity of putting everything together.
Deleted member 1255551
Member
- Feb 26, 2019
- 150
- 256
Seeing the discussions about probable censorship and taming the content to adapt to Steam's rules reminds me of when I saw some people asking for rape in the early days after the game's first release
I think the reason GGGB didn't have any rape (and ORS likely won't have any either) is because Eva's games are somewhat realistic (as realistic as a sex VN can get without being boring), and realistically, rape isn't sexy
inb4: "real apha sigma chads rape women"
I think the reason GGGB didn't have any rape (and ORS likely won't have any either) is because Eva's games are somewhat realistic (as realistic as a sex VN can get without being boring), and realistically, rape isn't sexy
inb4: "real apha sigma chads rape women"
dolfe67
Forum Fanatic
- Apr 25, 2020
- 5,421
- 15,138
If she likes it in the end, it's not rape. Source: japanese gamesSeeing the discussions about probable censorship and taming the content to adapt to Steam's rules reminds me of when I saw some people asking for rape in the early days after the game's first release
I think the reason GGGB didn't have any rape (and ORS likely won't have any either) is because Eva's games are somewhat realistic (as realistic as a sex VN can get without being boring), and realistically, rape isn't sexy
inb4: "real apha sigma chads rape women"
_Zebra_
Member
- Jun 24, 2017
- 198
- 831
Even after reading your message twice, I am still unable to see the impact of Seymour as something more than just moving the story forward. There are 3 options: "ignore him", "there no other choice work with him" and "yes daddy". Some dialog will be different, but I bet it won't be by much. Only time will tell, I will check the scripts once ch10 will be out.I'm all for Eva being pragmatic and keeping things as simple as possible within what's reasonable, but I think you're oversimplifying a bit here. Not everyone needs a scene, that's true. And it's easy to either not include Robert or give him a scene that doesn't impact any of the other paths. (That, however, depends on whether Eva keeps to what seems to be the plan, that Robert is out of the picture if Lena and Ian are in a relationship. And I think it's generally better if some of the sex scenes are mutually exclusive, which makes our choices more important and impactful. But yes, he can be kept out of the episode, or he can have a sex scene that doesn't significantly affect the rest of story.)
But what about Seymour? Eva can limit his interaction with Lena to a phone call and some interior monologue on her part afterwards. I don't think anyone is arguing that every character needs a scene in each chapter, but still it would just delay things until chapter 11. And in that case Eva will probably also have to tip-toe her way around the issue when writing chapter 10, because of how important it is to the story—which could eventually lead to more work than if she just starts dealing with it now.
The thing is that Lena's deal with Seymour doesn't just affect the relationship between the two of them. It also affects Lena's relationship to all the other photographers, and her job at the café, the restaurant and on Stalkfap. And Seymour's threaths also involve Ian and his career at the magazine and the writing contest. And if Lena rejects the deal, it will probably open up some other work related options that won't otherwise be available. (How could she otherwise afford a tramp stamp, nipple piercings and more horse sized dildos?
Also it will probably affect the relationship between Lena and Ian. Does she tell him about the deal with Seymour? And if so, how does Ian react? Will it differ depending on whether the relationship is open or exclusive? And if Lena doesn't tell him about it, will he eventually find out? Or will Seymour even tell him about it, to show his dominance and clear away one of the obstacles that stands between him and Lena?
It's not like all of these issues have to be handled in chapter 10, but eventually I think they will, and to me that sounds extremely complex, and something that demands some serious planning on how it will all play out, in which order, and how one thing affects the other. Looking at the variations of a particular scene is useful, but it's not even close to illustrating the overall complexity of putting everything together.
I really tried to think of a reason why the development time evolved the way it did. The most basic comparison shows me that chapter 6 has 18 460 lines, while chapter 9 has 21 781 lines. The development time of chapter 6 was ~2 months but I will say 3 because some stuff was added later on. The development time of chapter 9 was ~5 months, but again I will say 6 because some new art appeared after the remaster. Now I will be a bit lazy, chapter 6 has 279 image files, while chapter 9 has 400. There a lot of overlays and images that might have been created in previous chapters (stalkfap content) so I will cut everything in half 140 v 200. Beside this data, I already talked about how an equal amount of paths have content. Basically a period that was twice as long generated 25% more content.
Chapter 10 is not out yet, but if we look at chapter 5 we can see that it had only 12 245 lines, but in two days we'll reach the 4 months of development mark. If you also add the months in which the remaster took place (5.5 months), in which you could plan ahead at least 2 chapters, we end up with some strange numbers.
So what happened ? It's a mystery, but for me, the complexity argument is not the answer. Maybe I just need to find something else to do, instead of popping around here every other day to see if there is any new "weekly" update. Even the communication has changed. In the last 8 weeks, there were 2 "weekly" updates.