VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.6] [Eva Kiss]

[seaoflove]

I'm sorry but this is bullshit. Ivy offers Lena party drugs once. If Lena refuses, next time Ivy takes drugs herself the player has to make Lena ask for them (and burn a willpoint on it) because Ivy won't make the offer again. Furthermore, there's absolutely no basis to presume that because Ivy offers Lena's to choose if she wants some party drugs, then she'd just drug Holly without her knowledge -- Ivy clearly shows she understands and respects consent.


This game isn't GGGB and Eva has stated it's not going to be like GGGB in terms on content, but much more grounded. So if even in the "wilder" previous game you had this sort of content upfront and in the open, there's really no reason other than wishful thinking to expect this, much more tame game, will have this sort of shit cranked up even further, by making it a completely unannounced asspull.

I think it may be best for you to drop such hopes, or you'll only find yourself disappointed.

Ivy offers Lena drugs not once, but twice. Both times she did it was at the location where Ivy would need to spike Holly's drink. Just because she offers drugs doesn't mean she is going to spike Holly's drink that is true, but it doesn't mean it is outside of the realm of possibility. For you see Ivy may have more loyalties to Lena than she does to Holly as Ivy & Lena go way way back so she may have given Lena the choice, and not given Holly the choice. Because Ivy may feel Holly is a "bit of a square" and "Won't accept drugs." so she pushes that boudnary for her as a "Good Teacher".

It's obviously not GGGB, but a lot of elements from GGGB are also in ORS. There may be similar incidents and things that seem to cross over a bit. The fact that Jessica exists in ORS is proof they are in the same universe. In universe where Arthur will get Ashley to Spike Iris's drink it's well within the bounds of reality for Ivy to Spike Holly's drink.

 

[ffive]

Ivy offers Lena drugs not once, but twice. Both times she did it was at the location where Ivy would need to spike Holly's drink.

No, Ivy takes drugs twice. The second time, she only offers them to Lena if Lena has taken her up on the offer previously:

    "Ivy searched inside her purse and took out a small plastic bag filled with crystalline powder. I was already familiar with it."
    if lena_drugs:
        l "Oh, you're gonna do Molly tonight too?"
        v "Of course, it's my birthday! Want some?"
# ...
    else:
        l "You're gonna do Molly tonight too?"
        v "Of course, silly! It's my birthday!"
        v "In fact, I've already taken some a while ago, but I bet you didn't even notice. So spare me the cautionary advice..."
        v "I'd offer you some, but I know you're not into drugs."
# ...

So if you made your Lena a junkie, that's on you.

Just because she offers drugs doesn't mean she is going to spike Holly's drink that is true, but it doesn't mean it is outside of the realm of possibility.

It's significantly harder to believe when you see that Ivy is actually acting in the manner opposite to what you accuse her of.

Furthermore, there's absolutely zero indication in the game script that there's anything done to Holly's drink. Holly's behavior is fully driven by her _change variable, and Lena's actions (or lack thereof). Not by fantasies of evil Ivy nefariously scheming to destroy her maidenhood.

 

[seaoflove]

No, Ivy takes drugs twice. The second time, she only offers them to Lena if Lena has taken her up on the offer previously:

    "Ivy searched inside her purse and took out a small plastic bag filled with crystalline powder. I was already familiar with it."
    if lena_drugs:
        l "Oh, you're gonna do Molly tonight too?"
        v "Of course, it's my birthday! Want some?"
# ...
    else:
        l "You're gonna do Molly tonight too?"
        v "Of course, silly! It's my birthday!"
        v "In fact, I've already taken some a while ago, but I bet you didn't even notice. So spare me the cautionary advice..."
        v "I'd offer you some, but I know you're not into drugs."
# ...

So if you made your Lena a junkie, that's on you.


It's significantly harder to believe when you see that Ivy is actually acting in the manner opposite to what you accuse her of.

Furthermore, there's absolutely zero indication in the game script that there's anything done to Holly's drink. Holly's behavior is fully driven by her _change variable, and Lena's actions (or lack thereof). Not by fantasies of evil Ivy nefariously scheming to destroy her maidenhood.

Ivy is not acting in the opposite way of what I have said. Due to her deception in the past, and her offering drugs, and her highly sexual nature, plus her desire to corrupt Holly... She may do something shady to Holly. Even her instagram name is "VenomIvy". She is "Venomous" She is dangerous she is poisonous. It's her nature.

Ivy is like the illegitimate bastard child of Arthur from GGGB. She is just as bad as Arthur if not worse.

Then there is another prediction I got;

The photoshoot of Holly... That's all done on Stans camera. There is no mention of Lena taking the pictures off his camera so he has no access to them. At some point he is going to pick up his camera and see what images are in there. Especially because he has the option to take another photoshoot with Lena.

 

[Mythos079]

Then there is another prediction I got;

The photoshoot of Holly... That's all done on Stans camera. There is no mention of Lena taking the pictures off his camera so he has no access to them. At some point he is going to pick up his camera and see what images are in there. Especially because he has the option to take another photoshoot with Lena.

Actually Lena took the SD card with Holly's pictures from Stan's camera, just before Ivy's party.

 

[ffive]

Actually Lena took the SD card with Holly's pictures from Stan's camera, just before Ivy's party.

Yup; iirc this detail was added after people played the Alpha build of the episode and talked how Stan could potentially see those pictures. So there's definitely no intention on Eva's part for that to happen, seeing how it got explicitly blocked.

 

[RippedKegels]

No, Ivy takes drugs twice. The second time, she only offers them to Lena if Lena has taken her up on the offer previously:

    "Ivy searched inside her purse and took out a small plastic bag filled with crystalline powder. I was already familiar with it."
    if lena_drugs:
        l "Oh, you're gonna do Molly tonight too?"
        v "Of course, it's my birthday! Want some?"
# ...
    else:
        l "You're gonna do Molly tonight too?"
        v "Of course, silly! It's my birthday!"
        v "In fact, I've already taken some a while ago, but I bet you didn't even notice. So spare me the cautionary advice..."
        v "I'd offer you some, but I know you're not into drugs."
# ...

So if you made your Lena a junkie, that's on you.

This is incorrect. If you will read the next couple of lines in the script you will see that if Lena has a will point, she can elect to ask for some E in that scene on her own even if she rejected the previous opportunity.

Also, bit harsh deciding people who take party drugs from time to time are junkies.

 

[ffive]

Ivy is like the illegitimate bastard child of Arthur from GGGB. She is just as bad as Arthur if not worse.

Ivy has done nothing that'd even begin to compare to Arthur's behavior. You're so far off in that statement, it's not even funny.

 

[ffive]

This is incorrect. If you will the next couple of lines in the script you will see that if Lena has a will point, she can elect to ask for some E in that scene on her own.

How does it make what i said incorrect? Lena can ask to be given drugs. Ivy on her own won't offer drugs for the second time if once refused. It's actually exactly what i said originally:

Ivy offers Lena party drugs once. If Lena refuses, next time Ivy takes drugs herself the player has to make Lena ask for them (and burn a willpoint on it) because Ivy won't make the offer again.

 

[RippedKegels]

How does it make what i said incorrect? Lena can ask to be given drugs. Ivy on her own won't offer drugs for the second time if once refused. It's actually exactly what i said originally:

Ah ok. Didn't see that first post and then misinterpreted the one i quoted (as in she only offers them if Lena accepted the first time, even if asked). My mistake.

 

[seaoflove]

Ivy has done nothing that'd even begin to compare to Arthur's behavior. You're so far off in that statement, it's not even funny.

Okay, let's give it a few updates and return to this discussion.

 

[CassidyPRO]

Well, you have a very wrong idea about Warhammer and Sci-Fi novels. Warhammer is first and foremost a fantasy wargame, then it came the futuristic version and then the novels, based of course on the wargame setting. So no, Warhammer isn't the icon of a Sci-Fi novel, at all.

In every Sci-Fi story I can think about, the fight isn't the main conflict of the book, if there's a fight at all. If you want an idea of what a Sci-Fi book is, do a search in internet or look at this example list:

You must be registered to see the links

i think he is saying that the sci fi icon in ors is from warhammer lol

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

Well, you have a very wrong idea about Warhammer and Sci-Fi novels. Warhammer is first and foremost a fantasy wargame, then it came the futuristic version and then the novels, based of course on the wargame setting. So no, Warhammer isn't the icon of a Sci-Fi novel, at all.

In every Sci-Fi story I can think about, the fight isn't the main conflict of the book, if there's a fight at all. If you want an idea of what a Sci-Fi book is, do a search in internet or look at this example list:

You must be registered to see the links

You completely misunderstood me. I'm saying that the game obviously uses Warhammer imagery as the icon of its Sci-Fi genre, not the genre itself in real life. It's only fair to assume fight would be crucial for the genre in this game since it literally has Astartes there.

 

[Samuel Hidayat]

Actually Lena took the SD card with Holly's pictures from Stan's camera, just before Ivy's party.

Yup; iirc this detail was added after people played the Alpha build of the episode and talked how Stan could potentially see those pictures. So there's definitely no intention on Eva's part for that to happen, seeing how it got explicitly blocked.

And Lena will also need to buy and replace the SD card. If she's dead broke, there might be a path where Lena will have to do "things" to repay Stan.

Or another drama between Lena and Stan that could go in many ways.

 

[Gicoo]

Is there really any actual issue with the book building as it currently is?

Absolutely.

I'm not entirely satisfied with the book creation. Not every trope is properly hinted at.

For reference: https://f95zone.to/threads/our-red-string-v10-0-final-eva-kiss.48813/post-9673089


Fantasy: Chosen One, Dark Lord and Sage being clichees is mentioned by Holly. Anti-Hero being well and the Challenge is trickier, thoguh Holly points out to favor a dark, grim tone. Though Betrayal could fit as well.
I don't recall any hint regarding a romance. Why is metaphysical bad?
Ending is pointed out by Holly.

Sci-Fi: I recall that Holly says to shake things up, so Chosen One is important for a change. It sucks for voters of Call of Duty, which seems a solid choice. Dark Lord and Sage being bad may fall under clichees. Fight being a bad challenge seems fine, though there is no indicator. Love Interest being metaphysical makes sense for the genre.

History: Holly mentions to leave weird elements out of it, so Chosen One and Trickster shouldn't appear. Not using villain and using relativistic is on point for this genre. Treason being bad is pointed out by Holly. I find no indicator for Crude being bad. If anything, I would punish the choice of metaphysical, since this isn't a world of fiction. Minus points for Defeat is weird as well, since History is all about losing. Holly hammers in how important it is to not have a happy ending, so giving Victory a point and Defeat none is baffling.

Overall, there is no indicator for a Love Interest, Fight is a mostly useless choice that isn't even indicated to be bad and History is fairly difficult to get right.
I wouldn't mind in addition to Holly and Perry to have other characters help Ian. Lena is an avid reader, Seymour was a writer. Minerva and Victor are part of the jury, but with good relationships points, it isn't unfeasable if Ian gets their preferences out (especially corrupt, blackmailed Minerva).

 

[lucadiadis]

Well, you have a very wrong idea about Warhammer and Sci-Fi novels. Warhammer is first and foremost a fantasy wargame, then it came the futuristic version and then the novels, based of course on the wargame setting. So no, Warhammer isn't the icon of a Sci-Fi novel, at all.

In every Sci-Fi story I can think about, the fight isn't the main conflict of the book, if there's a fight at all. If you want an idea of what a Sci-Fi book is, do a search in internet or look at this example list:

You must be registered to see the links

Hard to imagine the second part of The Gods Themselves by Asimov with an antic fight between the Hardone, the Rationalone and the Sensitiveone.

 

[Mythos079]

Given it seems to be a problem, an easy and practical guide to achieve high results, and even the best one, in writing Ian's book.

You just have to choose: Vengeance, Relativistic, Anti-Hero, Doom, Metaphysical, Sacrifice.

In this way you'll achieve 8 points (aka perfect score) with a Historical book, and 7 points with a Fantasy or Sci-Fi book. To reach max points with those two you have to choose: for the Fantasy one Romantic or Crude, for the Sci-Fi one Chosen One. That's it.

To make it even simpler, just choose these for max score:
Fantasy: Vengeance, Relativistic, Anti-Hero, Doom, Romantic, Sacrifice.
Sci-Fi: Chosen One, Relativistic, Anti-Hero, Doom, Metaphysical, Sacrifice.
Historical: Vengeance, Relativistic, Anti-Hero, Doom, Metaphysical, Sacrifice.

If instead you want more freedom in choices, these alternatives will all give you the perfect score anyway:
Fantasy: Vengeance/Call Of Duty, Villain/Relativistic, Anti-Hero, Doom, Romantic/Crude, Victory/Sacrifice.
Sci-Fi: Chosen One, Villain/Relativistic, Trickster/Anti-Hero, Treason/Doom, Metaphysical, Sacrifice/Defeat.
Historical: Vengeance/Call Of Duty, Relativistic, Sage/Anti-Hero, Fight/Doom, Romantic/Metaphysical, Sacrifice.

 

[ffive]

Absolutely.

Hmm from your quote it appears the issues boil down to:

"Overall, there is no indicator for a Love Interest, Fight is a mostly useless choice that isn't even indicated to be bad and History is fairly difficult to get right."

Out of these, i'd only consider the lack of indicator an actual issue, however even if the player simply makes a guess here and fails the 33% chance to get it right, it is mitigated by the ability to change 2 of your choices in the end.

The other complaints are just "my opinion what should score well differs from the developer's" but i don't think this is really an issue -- if anything, it reflects the real life problem when it comes to writing, which is that guessing what people (and especially contest judges) will like/expect from award-winning works can be hard, because you can't simply rely on your own tastes and presumptions being the same as theirs.

 

[mommysboiii]

Actually Lena took the SD card with Holly's pictures from Stan's camera, just before Ivy's party.

you party pooper boooo hooo

 

[Gicoo]

however even if the player simply makes a guess here and fails the 33% chance to get it right, it is mitigated by the ability to change 2 of your choices in the end.

The ability to change hardly helps if you don't know what choice needs to be change. You could even lower the book score.

There was no indication that Crude is a bad romance option for History. And neither Holly nor Perrys advice can guide you on the right path for this.
There was no indication that Defeat is a bad ending option for History. In fact, taking Hollys advice, a bad ending should be rewarded and chosing a good ending should be punished.

The other complaints are just "my opinion what should score well differs from the developer's" but i don't think this is really an issue -- if anything, it reflects the real life problem when it comes to writing, which is that guessing what people (and especially contest judges) will like/expect from award-winning works can be hard, because you can't simply rely on your own tastes and presumptions being the same as theirs.

I don't mind following someonelses, in this case Evas, rules. However, aside from the fact that we have some common ground what tends to be good and bad objectively, they need to tell me what the rules are. Otherwise it is just arbitrary guesswork and has no purpose. A good chunk of them are explained in-game, so if I miss them, it is my fault. But if they aren't explained, it is the developers failing to convey a challenge that can be reasonable beaten through proper knowledge of the rules.

 

[ffive]

The ability to change hardly helps if you don't know what choice needs to be change. You could even lower the book score.

True, but if you are sure about some of your choices being right, then the remaining choices, like the one you picked blindly, are good candidates to tweak, wouldn't you agree?

There was no indication that Crude is a bad romance option for History. And neither Holly nor Perrys advice can guide you on the right path for this.

That's already mentioned, "there is no indicator for a Love Interest". Since it's a guess, it's a good candidate to tweak in case of poor score.

There was no indication that Defeat is a bad ending option for History. In fact, taking Hollys advice, a bad ending should be rewarded and chosing a good ending should be punished.

If you ask Perry for his opinion on the book he'll tell you whether your choice of ending was a good one. (for what's worth, according to him defeat as ending is "a bit too predictable" for history books)

However, aside from the fact that we have some common ground what tends to be good and bad objectively, they need to tell me what the rules are.

I disagree. This isn't a puzzle game, but a narrative game which uses creation of artistic content (books, music, photography) as part of its story. Writing books which will resonate with audience is hard and not something you get full explanation how to do it to achieve "perfect score", if you're a writer. To a certain extent it is guesswork. The game does good job portraying this, as part of its narrative.

You might as well complain that the lyric writing bit on Lena's side doesn't give you any real hints which of the provided words are the best picks, and yet these lyrics are also (secretly) scored at the end. The game does it this way because it's also not a challenge you're expected to beat simply through proper knowledge of the rules, but more of an approximation of actual writing experience.