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TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
789
7,352
But I wonder, how far the "dom" points influence the scenes/interactions? I mean, my MC has about 30pts and is more or less struggling with the ethical side of his job as my choices made it so... but during the scenes he is definitly... well ruthless? Mina's dialogue actually pointed that to me, how gentle and caring he was compared to his aggressiveness during scenes. So i wonder if it's actually just the story that made him that way or if it's due to my choices during the game?
Hey, thanks for playing and taking the time to share your thoughts.

To answer your question, toughness is primarily used to flavor the player character's thoughts and dialogue (although admittingly, not as much as I originally intended). It's not so much "dom points" as it reflects his callousness.

To the point of Edwin seeming ruthless, that is somewhat true. He has a ride-the-line personality by design, written as a sadist by nature at odds with the unethical premise of the club. During scenes, you can steer him away from the more degrading stuff, but he's still being coaxed into indulging his base nature under the guise of practical, selfish, and perhaps self-deluding reasons. Eventually things will come to a head and he'll either start to embrace the club or want out, but for the early to mid game, he's gotta be a bit wishy-washy for the game's hook to land.

...or so that's my line of thinking.
 

Cybland

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
15
40
Hey, thanks for playing and taking the time to share your thoughts.

To answer your question, toughness is primarily used to flavor the player character's thoughts and dialogue (although admittingly, not as much as I originally intended). It's not so much "dom points" as it reflects his callousness.

To the point of Edwin seeming ruthless, that is somewhat true. He has a ride-the-line personality by design, written as a sadist by nature at odds with the unethical premise of the club. During scenes, you can steer him away from the more degrading stuff, but he's still being coaxed into indulging his base nature under the guise of practical, selfish, and perhaps self-deluding reasons. Eventually things will come to a head and he'll either start to embrace the club or want out, but for the early to mid game, he's gotta be a bit wishy-washy for the game's hook to land.

...or so that's my line of thinking.
Thanks for the input. I've been meaning to write a review of this game here and been struggling for the past two weeks with defining my impressions. Have went through 4 playthroughs, shaping MC in various ways, and my impressions of the game, or better said rating derived from them, was ranging from two to four stars. Considering that exploitation of human misfortune makes my stomach turn I had to question my objectivity in rating this game. On the other hand, the fact that something drove me to go through this game 4 times says that there is something within it beyond this dark theme. Currently my rating is somewhere between 3.5 and 4 stars. Let me explain.

This game is a VN, which puts emphasis on the story, and that causes MC motives to become too bland and basic. The whole nature vs nurture thing, with former being declared a winner by this game, doesn't sit well with me. Problem, as I see it, lie in the fact that prologue is too short, not detailed enough, not explaining MC's psychological profile very well. It does a poor job in explaining MC's motives to accept the job at the Club, after initially refusing. What changed his mind? Rose encounter is not convincing enough if you don't accept that MC is a person who blindly follows his nature, base urges and desires. But, if you accept that, than why would he refuse initial offer? All this is additionally weighted by some illogical details (e.g. why would someone, who want to become an MD, study physics instead of chemistry or biology). I presume there was a "need" to get to the "good stuff" quickly but this prologue has badly colored my experience of the game from the start. For a great story, basis of the excellent VN, convincing character motives are paramount, starting with the main story character. I have gained more insight into MC from quoted comment than from the whole prologue.

Even after reading a.m. comment I still have a problem with dialogue/action choices left to players. As an example let's say that our MC is sadist by nature but, concerned with his public image and motivated by his wish for gaining public respect (original voiced reasons to refuse initial job offer), he chooses to act as a "good guy". This type of MC would miss out on a lot of LI's stories by closing their paths early on. Rose is a perfect example, her whole path depending on a single choice very early in the game.

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After all those playthroughs I have realized that, to be able to read all character's stories and understand their motives, I have no choice but to accept that MC is a simple creature, guided by his birth given nature, his urges and desires, who embraces opportunity to indulge in his desires with impunity that Club provides. But then, sheer amount of mental monologues MC has, expressing his discomforts, reservations and doubts, emphasized by all the tip-toeing of "supporting" characters, portray him as out of tune, childish, borderline schizophrenic person. Kat's birthday present scene illustrates this perfectly. I can only hope that this, obviously preferred type of MC, will become more realistic later on, possibly if/when we learn that his deceased, altruistic father was not his biological father, and that his mother's friend, MC's namesake, is in fact the biological father and the reason for MC's sadistic nature. Maybe that can be somewhat logical explanation of MC's internal struggle between his inherited nature and upbringing received from his parent(s).

In the end I have decided to hold off my review and rating of this game for at least until later stages of development. This game's story is not even at the halfway point, at least I hope it's not. There is huge potential for truly magnificent game but I feel that, to achieve this, prologue has to be redone.
 
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selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
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Considering that exploitation of human misfortune makes my stomach turn I had to question my objectivity in rating this game. (...) Currently my rating is somewhere between 3.5 and 4 stars. Let me explain.
And i am glad you did. One of my long standing qualms with ratings in general and specifically on this site is, that people often dont even try to give a somewhat objective rating, but instead dish out or detract Stars purely based on their own subjective opinion.
Let me explain:

Of course it is impossible to give a completely objective Rating, if this was the case there would be exactly one unanimous Rating shared by all Reviewers, which would match the rated Object perfectly.

It is, however, my honest opinion that any Rating lower than 4 Stars (Good) for PaleCarnation would fail to try to be somewhat objective and therefore should be disregarded as mere expression of personal preference with no impact whatsoever.

For example there are quite a lot "good" or "excellent" Movies which i personally think are overrated or would rate based on my personal enjoyment with 1 ("terrible") or 2 ("poor") Stars. Movies like Titanic, The Shining or Apocalypse Now and literally all Marvel Superheroes Movies of the past 15 Years.
But if i try to take more objective criterias like acting, production value, camera work, lighting and story into account, i have to acknowledge that some of those arent bad at all (Superheroes Movies remain terrible */jk).

And ofc you also have to take into account the general background the industry provides at a certain point of time.
Alfred Hitchcock movies for instance look nowadays often outdated and are considered "too slow"; Test views with random contemporary audiences show that those often are really appreciated only by cinephiles and cineasts, and not by the broader "normal" public. Or some dated Sci-Fi movies whose CGIs or special effects were top notch and considered "excellent" at their time and are only "meh" nowadays.

With all this said, and since there isnt a 6 Star ("Perfect") rating available, if you rate PaleCarnation based on its story, writing, production value, camera work, visuals and genre AND compare it with the backdrop of the competition the Adult Visual Novel Industry provides (meaning other VNs on this site), in my humble opinion you cant justify an "average" or lower rating.

Of course PaleCarnation is not perfect, and you mentioned some points which doesnt sit well with you (infact the Rosie Date issue was already criticized by other members, and even TD1900 considered to rewrite/clarify it at some point), leading to a somewhat subpar impression on your side.

I would like to address one or two of your concerns:
First and foremost Edwins change of mind to accept the job at the Club. He was working as a Tutor for children, a job he strongly dislikes. He gets a job offer from a former well-known aquaintance of him, Uncle of his Friend and someone he considered a Mentor like Figure back then. Of course he will check that offer and of course he is in a way appalled when he learns what the job entails.
Reality shows that people are willing to get into much worse, like prostitute themselves, join the Porn Industry or doing Drugs, when recommended by friends and/or people they trust AND this particular deal is sweetened by an offer any US-american student cant really refuse: to pay their university tuition. Guys join the army to fight and die in foreign countries for this. So honestly this motivation works for me even without porn-logic.
Second you mentioned some illogical details namely the physics class at his college, which is in my opinion a bit nitpicky, but to be honest i stumbled over this also. But since this can be changed by one single word (e.g. "biology") i didnt put much weight into it. Infact there are other inconsistencies i wanted to point out to the Dev, which i consider errors or overlookings, but nothing which cant be fixed with minor effort, and i just havent found the time yet.

So to conclude this:
You dont want to give 5 Stars? Fair enough, if you consider Edwins characterization too poor for your taste and you discovered plotholes you can not overlook.
You want to hold back your final assessment until you get a bigger picture with later releases? Even better, more members on this site should do this instead of judging prematurely.
Lets remember that honest, substantial, respectful and valid critics pointing out weaknesses in a game or plot, actually can help a Dev creating a better Game and therefore should be welcomed by the community.

Please share your thoughts on future releases of PaleCarnations.
 
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TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
789
7,352
Hey, thanks for the food for thought!

Normally, I try not to explain my reasoning for things, since writing should speak for itself and I believe any unaligned interpretation of events is usually the fault of the text, but I guess I'm feeling frisky the past couple of days. :p

What changed his mind? Rose encounter is not convincing enough if you don't accept that MC is a person who blindly follows his nature, base urges and desires. But, if you accept that, than why would he refuse initial offer?
What I said in your quoted post does make it seem matter-of-fact, but I wouldn't say he's characterized as blindly following his base nature. There, I was speaking specifically to why he seems to be able to dive into the sex scenes so easily, despite his misgivings.

He refuses the initial offer, but accepts chuck's second one for a simple and practical reason: he adds the condition that he'll pay for Edwin's tuition. He doesn't immediately jump at it, sure. He first jumps through the hoop Chuck dangles to visit the club, maybe in hopes of finding a less self-serving reason, but he later explicitly states that "Truth be told, in my heart, I had decided to take the job the moment he offered to pay for my tuition."

All this is additionally weighted by some illogical details (e.g. why would someone, who want to become an MD, study physics instead of chemistry or biology).
I'm 100%, absolutely sure there are plenty of other gaps in logic in the prologue, but for this particular cited detail: believe it or not, people do study physics as their undergrad degree before entering into med school. It overlaps with a lot of the pre-requisites you need to hit to apply, and Edwin has a particular love for the field, opted to do it as something he enjoyed.

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Asking her out was the push she needed to try and seduce Edwin. She takes him turning her down as kindness / apologizing as weakness, and seeing Edwin take a further active interest, decides to swing for the fences.

Admittingly, having two points where you can jump off a heroine's route early in the story is probably a questionable design choice, but there is an underlying logic to that particular set of events.

But then, sheer amount of mental monologues MC has, expressing his discomforts, reservations and doubts, emphasized by all the tip-toeing of "supporting" characters, portray him as out of tune, childish, borderline schizophrenic person. Kat's birthday present scene illustrates this perfectly. I can only hope that this, obviously preferred type of MC, will become more realistic later on...
Well, that's true. Edwin IS very much intentionally out-of-tune.

The game does have a(n extremely) heightened sense of porn-reality, but I think people hypocritically acting against what they believe is right, is realistic. In this case, perhaps it's done in a too extreme, heavy-handed way for Edwin to be relatable or likable to the reader.

----

My specific nit-picky answers aside, I do sort of agree with you about the prologue. It's got a different sense of pace than the rest of the game. Probably a by-product of wanting to just get the project off the ground when GIL and I was unsure if it would even fly.

Again, thanks for helping me introspect.
 
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selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
943
Hey, thanks for the food for thought!
Hey TD1900, since you are online atm, i would like to bring to your attention an inconstitency you are probably already aware of, but i will do it anyways real quick.

The time-/datestamps on the flashbacks of Edwin of his mothers video in Rosies Gonzo scene are wrong. I will try to include screenshots to point out which excactly i refer to.
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As far as i know there are two shots which show a time-/ date stamp and the Feb 27 2009 one is the yellowish one in the intro. Whereas i call this one the grey one which happens at Jan 08 2009.
 
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TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
789
7,352
Hey TD1900, since you are online atm, i would like to bring to your attention an inconstitency you are probably already aware of, but i will do it anyways real quick.

The time-/datestamps on the flashbacks of Edwin of his mothers video in Rosies Gonzo scene are wrong. I will try to include screenshots to point out which excactly i refer to.
I'd appreciate it. Pretty sure I still have the PSD files, so it would be an easy and quick fix. Feel free to DM me?

EDIT:
Disregard that last part, my dumbass missed that you included the example in your post.
 
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thisguy420

Newbie
Aug 9, 2021
21
114
And i am glad you did. One of my long standing qualms with ratings in general and specifically on this site is, that people often dont even try to give a somewhat objective rating, but instead dish out or detract Stars purely based on their own subjective opinion.
Let me explain:

Of course it is impossible to give a completely objective Rating, if this was the case there would be exactly one unanimous Rating shared by all Reviewers, which would match the rated Object perfectly.

It is, however, my honest opinion that any Rating lower than 4 Stars (Good) for PaleCarnation would fail to try to be somewhat objective and therefore should be disregarded as mere expression of personal preference with no impact whatsoever.

For example there are quite a lot "good" or "excellent" Movies which i personally think are overrated or would rate based on my personal enjoyment with 1 ("terrible") or 2 ("poor") Stars. Movies like Titanic, The Shining or Apocalypse Now and literally all Marvel Superheroes Movies of the past 15 Years.
But if i try to take more objective criterias like acting, production value, camera work, lighting and story into account, i have to acknowledge that some of those arent bad at all (Superheroes Movies remain terrible */jk).

And ofc you also have to take into account the general background the industry provides at a certain point of time.
Alfred Hitchcock movies for instance look nowadays often outdated and are considered "too slow"; Test views with a random contemporary audiences show that those often are really appreciated only by cinephiles and cineasts, and not by the broader "normal" public. Or some dated Sci-Fi movies whose CGIs or special effects were top notch and considered "excellent" at their time and are only "meh" nowadays.

With all this said, and since there isnt a 6 Star ("Perfect") rating available, if you rate PaleCarnation based on its story, writing, production value, camera work, visuals and genre AND compare it with the backdrop of the competition the Adult Visual Novel Industry provides (meaning other VNs on this site), in my humble opinion you cant justify an "average" or lower rating.

Of course PaleCarnation is not perfect, and you mentioned some points which doesnt sit well with you (infact the Rosie Date issue was already criticized by other members, and even TD1900 considered to rewrite/clarify it at some point), leading to a somewhat subpar impression on your side.

I would like to address one or two of your concerns:
First and foremost Edwins change of mind to accept the job at the Club. He was working as a Tutor for children, a job he strongly dislikes. He gets a job offer from a former well-known aquaintance of him, Uncle of his Friend and a figure he considered a Mentor like Figure back then. Of course he will check that offer and of course he is in a way appalled when he learns what the job entails.
Reality shows that people are willing to get into much worse, like prostitute themselves, join the Porn Industry or doing Drugs, when recommended by friends and/or people they trust AND this particular deal is sweetened by an offer any US-american student cant really refuse: to pay their university tuition. Guys join the army to fight and die in foreign countries for this. So honestly this motivation works for me even without porn-logic.
Second you mentioned some illogical details namely the physics class at his college, which is in my opinion a bit nitpicky, but to be honest i stumbled over this also. But since this can be changed by one single word (e.g. "biology") i didnt put much weight into it. Infact there are other inconsistencies i wanted to point out to the Dev, which i consider errors or overlookings, but nothing which cant be fixed with minor effort, and i just havent found the time yet.

So to conclude this:
You dont want to give 5 Stars? Fair enough, if you consider Edwins characterization too poor for your taste and you discovered plotholes you can not overlook.
You want to hold back your final assessment until you get a bigger picture with later releases? Even better, more members on this site should do this instead of judging prematurely.
Lets remember that honest, substantial, respectful and valid critics pointing out weaknesses in a game or plot, actually can help a Dev creating a better Game and therefore should be welcomed by the community.

Please share your thoughts on future releases of PaleCarnations.
I agree that objectively this game is far above average. However I also think that Being A DIK blows everything out of the water. I try to keep my evaluations objective, but my scoring is always going to be relative. As such I find it hard to rate anything a 5 because that game exists. If it didn't I would definitely give this, and a handful of other games, a 5. Instead I have to give them all a 4 which means practically everything else on this site is a 3 or less.

On the other hand I feel slightly uncomfortable that I can only rate things from 1-5 on this site, and my argument above decreases that range even further. Do you think my logic is flawed? Should I just rate all the 'top tier' games a 5 despite the fact that I objectively feel #1 to be the top by far?
 
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selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
943
I agree that objectively this game is far above average. However I also think that Being A DIK blows everything out of the water. I try to keep my evaluations objective, but my scoring is always going to be relative. As such I find it hard to rate anything a 5 because that game exists. If it didn't I would definitely give this, and a handful of other games, a 5. Instead I have to give them all a 4 which means practically everything else on this site is a 3 or less.

On the other hand I feel slightly uncomfortable that I can only rate things from 1-5 on this site, and my argument above decreases that range even further. Do you think my logic is flawed? Should I just rate all the 'top tier' games a 5 despite the fact that I objectively feel #1 to be the top by far?
Yes, i think since there isnt a 6 Star ("Perfect") Rating, you should rate the Top 10 or Top 10% of the games here with a 5 Star review. You can still express your opinion in your post that this one particular game is your personal number one, which you would like to rate higher. Remember the ratings are "Good" and "Excellent", so if you can reasonably rate a game 5 Stars you should do so.
 

Kinky Bully

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2020
1,262
9,526
Why is there only 233 pages (in this f95 threads)? This game is way better (quality and quantity) most games out there. This game deserves more!!!
That's because the website is filled with beta cucks that can't handle realism. They feel insecure about playing a porn game if other guys than MC have a dick. They want to simp to their 2d/3d waifu.
 
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Cybland

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
15
40
I would like to address one or two of your concerns:
First and foremost Edwins change of mind to accept the job at the Club. He was working as a Tutor for children, a job he strongly dislikes. He gets a job offer from a former well-known aquaintance of him, Uncle of his Friend and a figure he considered a Mentor like Figure back then. Of course he will check that offer and of course he is in a way appalled when he learns what the job entails.
Reality shows that people are willing to get into much worse, like prostitute themselves, join the Porn Industry or doing Drugs, when recommended by friends and/or people they trust AND this particular deal is sweetened by an offer any US-american student cant really refuse: to pay their university tuition. Guys join the army to fight and die in foreign countries for this. So honestly this motivation works for me even without porn-logic.
Hey, thanks for your kind words, really appreciate it. I have taken into account that I might have lessened the impact of tuition offer on MC's reasoning, coming from the place where university education is largely subsidized and therefore is extremely affordable. Nevertheless, I couldn't find anything in prologue that would strike a strong note of necessity for MC to accept that offer. As you said, Chuck is MC's mentor, almost a father figure, but my impression was that Chuck's impact on MC's decision making has been hugely reduced by MC's disbelief or even disappointment in Chuck, after learning that Chuck was one of Club owners. Maybe I'm just projecting my own character onto MC, if put in the same situation where I have found out that my (childhood) idol is involved in something I distaste, my view and trust in that person would be very damaged. As you have said yourself, MC already has a job, admittedly one he strongly dislikes, but that kind of job is sort-of inline with his upbringing. He is not really pressured to accept Club job, there are other ways to get that tuition. I apologize for mentioning other game in this thread but, solution(s) to tuition "problem" presented in Being a DIK are more "acceptable" for me.

Second you mentioned some illogical details namely the physics class at his college, which is in my opinion a bit nitpicky, but to be honest i stumbled over this also. But since this can be changed by one single word (e.g. "biology") i didnt put much weight into it.
It might have seemed like nitpicky, but it is an important story detail. MC studies physics, therefore comes in contact with Chuck. Chuck is a physicist who has earned a lot of money creating weapons, which in turn has enabled him to become a part owner of the Club and have some very significant and dubious connections, August being first to come to mind. My gripe with this detail comes from the reasoning that Chuck could have easily been a chemist, for example, and earn money and connections in the same way. Even as biologist it would be doable, although his connection to August would have been less obvious in this case. Maybe Chuck as a chemist is not viable due to a potential clash with van Doren but, as things are now, it would be even more convincing for MC that he has made a right decision. His first "idol" has pushed him to accept a job that brings him a lot of (moral) doubts. There he meets his second "idol", van Doren, and that brings him some sense of normalcy and acceptance.

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I am eagerly waiting for continuation of this story, as I have already said, it has huge potential to be a true gem.
 
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selberdreher

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Dec 29, 2017
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You will remember this, i came to this exact conclusion, when i was trying to trace the timeline of the events, and i was too afraid to reveal to this audience, because if it were true it would be one of the biggest spoiler in the game.
Please keep our fellow players blissfull ignorant about this.
 
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Cybland

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
15
40
Hey, thanks for the food for thought!

Normally, I try not to explain my reasoning for things, since writing should speak for itself and I believe any unaligned interpretation of events is usually the fault of the text, but I guess I'm feeling frisky the past couple of days. :p



What I said in your quoted post does make it seem matter-of-fact, but I wouldn't say he's characterized as blindly following his base nature. There, I was speaking specifically to why he seems to be able to dive into the sex scenes so easily, despite his misgivings.

He refuses the initial offer, but accepts chuck's second one for a simple and practical reason: he adds the condition that he'll pay for Edwin's tuition. He doesn't immediately jump at it, sure. He first jumps through the hoop Chuck dangles to visit the club, maybe in hopes of finding a less self-serving reason, but he later explicitly states that "Truth be told, in my heart, I had decided to take the job the moment he offered to pay for my tuition."



I'm 100%, absolutely sure there are plenty of other gaps in logic in the prologue, but for this particular cited detail: believe it or not, people do study physics as their undergrad degree before entering into med school. It overlaps with a lot of the pre-requisites you need to hit to apply, and Edwin has a particular love for the field, opted to do it as something he enjoyed.



Asking her out was the push she needed to try and seduce Edwin. She takes him turning her down as kindness / apologizing as weakness, and seeing Edwin take a further active interest, decides to swing for the fences.

Admittingly, having two points where you can jump off a heroine's route early in the story is probably a questionable design choice, but there is an underlying logic to that particular set of events.



Well, that's true. Edwin IS very much intentionally out-of-tune.

The game does have a(n extremely) heightened sense of porn-reality, but I think people hypocritically acting against what they believe is right, is realistic. In this case, perhaps it's done in a too extreme, heavy-handed way for Edwin to be relatable or likable to the reader.

----

My specific nit-picky answers aside, I do sort of agree with you about the prologue. It's got a different sense of pace than the rest of the game. Probably a by-product of wanting to just get the project off the ground when GIL and I was unsure if it would even fly.

Again, thanks for helping me introspect.
Hey TD, thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. You have give me insight into your line of thinking and I'm thankful for it, and for taking your valuable time to even reply to my comment. Don't want to repeat my previous comment and some points expressed within just want to say sorry if it has done some unintentional "damage" to the story.

Thanks again for your effort to bring this game to life, can hardly wait for future updates.
 

selberdreher

Member
Dec 29, 2017
448
943
It might have seemed like nitpicky, but it is an important story detail. MC studies physics, therefore comes in contact with Chuck.
Yes, this is an important detail you sadly got wrong. Edwin came into contact with Chuck long before he started studying physics, infact he (Kohler) was mentoring the physics club at his (Edwins) High School, they havent had contact for a few years now, until Kohler reaches out again to Edwin with his job offer. His love for physics made Edwin join the Physics club, meeting Chuck at a quite young age and probably even introduced him to his mother in some way (!).
Surely the only reason such a renowned, hardworking and busy physicist such as Dr Charles Kohler, who owns a thriving company, working with kids at a school in his free time, is just to spark their interest in physics and feed their young brains with the amazing wonders the world of physic provides...

As far as Physics is a viable choice for upcoming Med Schoolers, TD1900 already got into this in their reply-post to you.
people do study physics as their undergrad degree before entering into med school. It overlaps with a lot of the pre-requisites you need to hit to apply, and Edwin has a particular love for the field
 
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Cybland

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
15
40
You will remember this, i came to this exact conclusion, when i was trying to trace the timeline of the events, and i was too afraid to reveal to this audience, because if it were true it would be one of the biggest spoiler in the game.
Please keep our fellow players blissfull ignorant about this.
Thanks for suggestion, I have edited my comment. :)
 
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Cybland

Newbie
Aug 15, 2021
15
40
Yes, this is an important detail you sadly got wrong. Edwin came into contact with Chuck long before he started studying physics, infact he (Kohler) was mentoring the physics club at his (Edwins) High School, they havent had contact for a few years now, until Kohler reaches out again to Edwin with his job offer. His love for physics made Edwin join the Physics club, meeting Chuck at a quite young age and probably even introduced him to his mother in some way (!).
Surely the only reason such a renowned, hardworking and busy physicist such as Dr Charles Kohler, who owns a thriving company, is working with kids at a school in his free time, is just to spark their interest in physics and feed their young brains with the amazing wonders the world of physic provides...

As far as Physics is a viable choice for upcoming Med Schoolers, TD1900 already got into this in their reply-post to you.
I stand corrected, it was in fact in high school physics club and now, after your and TD's comments, physics makes lot more sense to me. Even mothers reservation to Chuck, when MC mentioned him, now makes more sense. Thank you for clarifying this. :)
 
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4.90 star(s) 502 Votes