VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Turret]

So you want to restore a broken relationship? Also how do you know Mina cares about the relationship in the same way Ian does? She admits to Edwin that she often (like Edwin) has to sort of guess how to feel about things and THIS IS HER FIRST RELATIONSHIP AT ALL. The only "relationship" she had prior were flings to relive sexual tension in her all girls school. So Mina someone who has to guess how to feel and has never been in a relationship really cares about Ian someone who has been cheating on her for the majority of their relationship? Their relationship is manipulative and emotionally abusive (BECAUSE IAN ADMITS TO CHEATING ON MINA WHERE SHE CAN SEE TO HURT HER SO SHE FEELS COMPELLED TO TRY HARDER IN BED) and it is all Ian doing that to Mina, when she finally cheats it is not with a random girl, or two, or a maid, or a prostitute it is with the first person to understand her having to act like a proper human.

Ian likes wild sex? Why did they ever only at best 1 for 1? Ian likes to use women (he gets points when Edwin says "I want to treat women as object during the birthday drinking game with Hana and Mina) not have wild, good, considerate, or equal sex. I mean when you refuse her first offer for a blowjob after you make her cum once she genuinely does not understand, she is not trying to be demure or innocent she really just does not think that is how "sex goes" (at least with Ian). So ask yourself why someone who is fine with making his childhood maid lick his cum off the floor, or fucking in front of 10+ old men, or someone who has had stuff shoved up his ass by kathleen would only be doing the same amount of stuff that Lucy and her husband do?

Think of how Ian treats EVERY GIRL (even Hana) at the club, he constantly berates and excretes his power over them. Felica's punishment game for the first exhibition is the best example of this: Of all the girls Felicia is most ok with being covered in cum, she isnt the happiest in the world but she maintains banter similar to her normal style no matter who is jacking off on her. Until Ian gets there.... At first she thinks nothing of it then he starts to tell her to shut the fuck up, calling her a whore, telling her how long he has been waiting to talk to her like this. Felicia's reaction to this is one of her most confused moments in the entire game even Edwin is like "bro wtf". Now imagine Mina exploring her bucket list is Ian going to help her do them? Maybe. Is Ian going to be supportive the whole time and help her actually explore her feelings about them? lol no. Is Ian going to call her a slut/whore everytime she wants to do anything he does not deem vanilla? absolutely.

Lastly a huge flaw I dont think you've noticed is who is going to be helping them get more clues to a "normal" relationship? Edwin? The character who is currently contemplating if monogamy is possible in his new line of work? If he can even have a girlfriend? That is the blind leading the blind asshole who is trying to stick his dick in any and every hole.

Sorry about the more anger fueld reply than most, I understand wanting to help a "bro" out or not caring about Mina but saying that she should go back to him is borderline illogical.

Edit: Also due to this being a game Edwin would likely have to watch, or be involved with Mina and Ian if we want to see her bucket list scenes, or we would have to watch one or multiple scenes with no Edwin involvement at all (no inner thoughts, no struggle,no growth as a character) just Ian calling Mina a whore for wanting to enjoy sex. (also this would summon a whole new world of NTR posts)

Hi! You are very cherrypicking with your examples and interpreting some sentences in just your way, esp. since we are rather certainly on different routes through the game which are not the same, but that is your choice.
We are discussing standpoints here, nothing more. I never said that repairing their relationship was easy, nor that it is guaranteed to function. Still, when you look at the whole story so far and not just the surface, you can see that Ian and Mina click. They actually made it this far, which is quite a feat considering how messed up relationshipwise current Ian is compared to old Ian and that they made one of the most common mistakes in a relationship: communicating not enough or with too much holding back about important topics.

I could put together some examples for my viewpoint here, which are from scenes and events which might not be quite the same text- and eventwise as the ones you played, but that is considering some of your other posts vergebliche Mühe (vain endavour).
It is quite obvious that you absolutely dislike/hate Ian and see him incapable of change, that is your option to see him so. But I do not need someone going Hulk on me for the Ian of his/her playthrough, which rather certainly is not quite the same Ian of my playthrough. Sorry if that sounded harsh, but as a German I am used to giving it straight.
I have no problems discussing it further, but let me tell you getting so angry over some VN characters is not good for your health. That we are passionate about these characters is good, it shows how well done they are, but you are building up a serious head of steam about it.

 

[Turret]

Spoiler: largely irrelevant for most people

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I would be very interested in some of this alternative scenes/text where Ian is redeemed is posted because after a playthrough with the Universal Ren'py mod (which allows you to see all text/paths/variables) I dont really recall there being much in that way beyond the phone call after the USB which doesn't have an alternative version of Ian it is just a scene where he is more vulnerable.

Spoiler: Irrelevant to most others answer

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As I wrote in a post before, you interpret some of the text very specifically, not necessarilly the whole situation. There are (correctly) scenes where Ian let out an unmitigated a..., behaviour, but there are also scenes where the in-between tones of the situation at hand count a lot.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

Hi! You are very cherrypicking with your examples and interpreting some sentences in just your way, esp. since we are rather certainly on different routes through the game which are not the same, but that is your choice.
We are discussing standpoints here, nothing more. I never said that repairing their relationship was easy, nor that it is guaranteed to function. Still, when you look at the whole story so far and not just the surface, you can see that Ian and Mina click. They actually made it this far, which is quite a feat considering how messed up relationshipwise current Ian is compared to old Ian and that they made one of the most common mistakes in a relationship: communicating not enough or with too much holding back about important topics.

I could put together some examples for my viewpoint here, which are from scenes and events which might not be quite the same text- and eventwise as the ones you played, but that is considering some of your other posts vergebliche Mühe (vain endavour).
It is quite obvious that you absolutely dislike/hate Ian and see him incapable of change, that is your option to see him so. But I do not need someone going Hulk on me for the Ian of his/her playthrough, which rather certainly is not quite the same Ian of my playthrough. Sorry if that sounded harsh, but as a German I am used to giving it straight.
I have no problems discussing it further, but let me tell you getting so angry over some VN characters is not good for your health. That we are passionate about these characters is good, it shows how well done they are, but you are building up a serious head of steam about it.

While I agree viewpoints can be different I have known plenty of relationships irl that lasted way longer than they should have - it does not mean the people 'clicked' its just that the relationships were abusive. And I personally think Ian and Mina's relationship was a bit abusive at least the way it is portrayed in the game. When you enter your first relationship, it is incredibly easy to be taken advantage of. You dont know your limits you dont know how to properly say no and you dont know how and where to draw the line. There is a lot more to relationships than just sexual compatibility - trust in your partner and not being emotionally manipulative/abusive is far far more important. While Mina was also willing to cheat on Ian with Edwin, I view it as a natural consequence of Ian's actions where he was a total dick to her for several months.

I think as with anything after the first couple of breakups you learn what worked and what did not and you apply what you learnt to future relationships going forward. There is of course the possibility that you may be lucky and you meet someone who is a good fit for you in your very first relationship but I think that when it comes to abusive relationships, someone who has dated and broken up in the past is more likely to stand up to their abusive partner and not be a doormat as compared to someone who is in their first relationship.

Your reasoning sounds extremely flawed to me but again - different viewpoints.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Going to have to agree with Simpgor here.
Ian is a sorry excuse for a human being no matter the player choices. Maybe in the future we will have the chance to help him change, likely by getting rid of "uncle" Chuck's influence, but so far the game paints a grim picture of him.

He is a shitty boyfriend who by Mina's own admission is never there to try to help her with anything unless there is a possibility of having sex with her. And on top of that he cheats right in front of Mina and even has the gall to let videos of his cheating in her house.
All in some effort to make her "try harder" on bed, according to his own words. A manipulative behaviour because Ian knows Mina is inexperienced in relationships (with men at least). Which is also a symptom of the way he treats every women he cross path with: as a piece of meat to be used, abused and discarded. Felicia being the third place in the first week exhibitions is a glaring example of this (as is the way he treats his mother's housekeep - her name escapes me right now).

So even if somehow Ian decides one day to become a decent person the damage he did to Mina is already done. I would not have Edwin help put Mina again in a relationship with someone who manipulated her like that, even if my Edwin isn't interested in Mina other than being friends. Abusive relationships are a no go to me.

 

[ename144]

It's been a while but we got a new dev diary today!

Spoiler: Dev Diary 43

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Sounds like we've made some good progress: in the 28 days since our last diary, TD and GIL have added 429 static renders, 13 animations, and 6990 words. That's an average of roughly 107 statics, 3.3 animations and 1748 words per week. Overall, they are now averaging ~113 statics, 2.2 animations and 2234 words per week since work on Chapter 4 Update 1 began. Here are the charts:

Spoiler: Distant Charts

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As you can see, using the art counts for Chapter 3 Update 1 as a benchmark we're currently looking at a release in the mid-late October timeframe, with animations being the bottleneck (and words having no direct point of comparison). Since TD says the current target is more of a mid-late September timeframe, that suggests the art counts are likely to be a bit lower than Ch3Up1. In theory we could also see a surge in the rendering rates to make up the difference; we have seen rates in the 170+ static/week and 8+ animation/week range in the past, and that would hit the Ch3Up1 numbers by the end of September. But normally one of those high rates comes at the expense of the other and in this case we'd need to redline both statics and animations to hit the target. So I think it's more likely the art count will be a little lower than anticipated and the rendering rates will only increase slightly.

That's my guess, anyway; we'll see how it turns out. Definitely looking forward to seeing Hana, and very curious to see what comes from spending time with Ian as well.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Any info on who else this update will be focused on other than Hana?

 

[TD1900]

Any info on who else this update will be focused on other than Hana?

Ian.

The update has 4 variable opening scenes, there's hanging out with Ian, and then there's Hana.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Ian.

The update has 4 variable opening scenes, there's hanging out with Ian, and then there's Hana.

So we can finally start influencing him to be less of a scumbag or will Edwin accompany him into some debauchery?

 

[ename144]

While I agree viewpoints can be different I have known plenty of relationships irl that lasted way longer than they should have - it does not mean the people 'clicked' its just that the relationships were abusive. And I personally think Ian and Mina's relationship was a bit abusive at least the way it is portrayed in the game. When you enter your first relationship, it is incredibly easy to be taken advantage of. You dont know your limits you dont know how to properly say no and you dont know how and where to draw the line. There is a lot more to relationships than just sexual compatibility - trust in your partner and not being emotionally manipulative/abusive is far far more important. While Mina was also willing to cheat on Ian with Edwin, I view it as a natural consequence of Ian's actions where he was a total dick to her for several months.

I think as with anything after the first couple of breakups you learn what worked and what did not and you apply what you learnt to future relationships going forward. There is of course the possibility that you may be lucky and you meet someone who is a good fit for you in your very first relationship but I think that when it comes to abusive relationships, someone who has dated and broken up in the past is more likely to stand up to their abusive partner and not be a doormat as compared to someone who is in their first relationship.

Your reasoning sounds extremely flawed to me but again - different viewpoints.

I don't think that anyone is debating that Ian has been a shitty boyfriend to Mina (or, for that matter, a relatively shitty person in general). The question is whether he can become something better.

We've seen that Ian wasn't always the toxic asshole he is now, and it seems pretty clear Chuck and the Carnation Club played a large role in why he changed. If negative reinforcement can turn Ian into a misogynistic playah, it seems plausible that positive reinforcement could cause him to develop a functional level of empathy - and the MC is one of the few people who Ian would potentially listen to.

Will that wind up happening? I don't know. Thus far in the story the MC has shown little interest in introspection in general, and no interest in trying to instill introspection in Ian. Still, it seems like introspection is on the menu with Chapter 4, and we know one of the first events will be hanging with our bro Ian. So I hold out hope the MC will finally be able to broach the topic with Ian directly. If so, we should have a much better idea whether repairing the Mina/Ian relationship is possible (or indeed a remotely good idea).

Having said all that, I do think there is one indication that patching up the relationship has always been a possibility - namely the fact that the Killian/Mina romance has a numerical counter in the first place. Ian's USB debacle is hardcoded, so it would seem that there'd be no need to track the variable. Indeed, AFAICT it plays no role in whether Mina will make her play for the MC in Chapter 3, either. Since it seems like the variable is still in play, I'm holding out hope that means we might be able to salvage something if we can get Ian's head screwed on straight and show him the error of his ways.

But that's just me, I've always been something of a hopeless romantic at heart.

Ian.

The update has 4 variable opening scenes, there's hanging out with Ian, and then there's Hana.

A day filled with with Veronica\Victoria, Ian and Hana! Sunday should be a good day. If only we could get both the Victoria and Veronica scenes I think it'd be just about ideal... depending on exactly what happens in those scenes, of course.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

A day filled with with Veronica\Victoria, Ian and Hana! Sunday should be a good day. If only we could get both the Victoria and Veronica scenes I think it'd be just about ideal... depending on exactly what happens in those scenes, of course.

Victoria and Veronica too? Nice.

ps: Hide your mom Edwin unless you want a new (step)mother.

 

[selberdreher]

There are a few trails of thought i wanted to reply to, so bear with me if i necro them at a later point. Right now i would like to contribute to this quite heated discussion.
As a disclaimer i think it's fair to say that i am like 95% in line with Simpgor, RC-1138 Boss, axeafxas, McGreed and starkj about Ian and his relationship to Mina.
Turret i hope you are aware, that i respect and appreciate your opinion highly, precisely because of your different view on this matter. Let me try to incorporate your reasoning into this post, because i don't think everything you said is completely outlandish.

Let's start with your main premise: Ian loves Mina
You said you need a bit of time to back your claim, that's okey take all the time you need. So for now lets keep this premise.

Another important premise of you is: Ian is a good friend to Edwin, there aren't too many good friends in a single lifetime, so cherish the few you have and help and support them, if they are in need.
Lets drop the question for now, whether or not Ian is really a good friend to Edwin or for Edwin, and just say he is.

So we should at least try to help him!

That's an honorable notion, which i can support: help a friend in need.

There is also a third premise we shouldn't overlook in this context:

Mina has become a friend quickly too.

Now i am starting to smell a conflict of interests:
Are you really convinced by helping Ian you do help Mina equally? Is it possible for Edwin to be an honest broker to them both?
Are the issues in this relationship not very one-sided? What exactly did Mina wrong in this relationship?

Let's say you succeed miraculously with this endeavour. How would you handle it? How much degradation and suffering, how many sacrifices should Mina undergo to save his relation to her? And why?

they made one of the most common mistakes in a relationship: communicating not enough or with too much holding back about important topics.

Well, we said you succeeded, they talked about their sexual preferences, realized they match well, and have now the sexlife they always dreamed of. Happy End.

Hmmmmm, No?
Because none of the other issues of Ian has been solved yet, not his Mothercomplex, not his misogynistic asshole attitude and also not his inability to commit to and to navigate in a relationship. Neither the more than unhealthy influence his 'Uncle' has on him.
Better sex does not solve these issues, nor does a heart to heart talk with his best friend.

If you want to be a true friend and really want to help him say:
"Bro, get a good therapist, work out those issues, and if you really love Mina try to win her back when you are ready for her. Don't let her shoulder your burden for the years to come, because this isn't solved in a few weeks. I will support you on your journey, you will always have me to talk to or to crash on my couch if you're lonely, or just to hang out and play a few games, if you don't feel like talking."

Nonetheless, go on and try, i will celebrate your success against all odds, and you will tell me if that was worth it.
But if you fail, and that risk is high and real, brace for multiples: "Told you so"

 

[selberdreher]

The question is whether he can become something better.

We've seen that Ian wasn't always the toxic asshole he is now, and it seems pretty clear Chuck and the Carnation Club played a large role in why he changed. If negative reinforcement can turn Ian into a misogynistic playah, it seems plausible that positive reinforcement could cause him to develop a functional level of empathy

Absolutely, it took 20 years of emotional neglect from his Mother, around 8+ years of influence from Chuck and ~3 years of CarnationClub to mold Ian into the young man he is today.
Victoria and Edwin battled these bad influences by being there for him for lets say 10 to 12+ (minus the last 3 years they hadn't much contact) years now. I think the result of this battle speaks for its own.

Yes, it's plausible that positive reinforcement may turn this around, but i don't believe it is possible in this short amount of time we are looking at in PaleCarnation. And it's not really plausible why we should involve Mina in this process.

In my opinion the right and honorable things to do would be:

• Don't start an affair with Mina, but push for a breakup. Ian is not ready for any relationship in his current condition.
• Get close to Grace and figure out her side of this strange relation she has with her son.
• Try to get Ian into college, to break his player lifestyle as a photographer, and to please Grace as a first step.
• Alienate Ian and his 'Uncle' by any means possible.
• Get Ian out of the Carnation Club by any means possible.
• and last but not least, as already mentioned, push for him to get professional help.

Having said all that, I do think there is one indication that patching up the relationship has always been a possibility - namely the fact that the Killian/Mina romance has a numerical counter in the first place.

The little help a 'patched up' relationship may provide to this steps doesn't outweigh the cost Mina has to pay, because she gains little for just as long as Ian needs to better himself, while still suffering from his personality during that time.
This is lost time she could spend instead with someone else with a healthy personality in a healthy relationship.

As we discussed the secondary stats of the carnations and our little angel and devil (it's up to you to decide who's the angel and who's the devil) we tended to focus on Minas bi-curious stat, whereas i think in truth her Killian Romance Score is more akin to Rosies Libido and Veros Horniness. I'll leave it to you, my fellow thread members, to ponder the implication of this statement.

In a nutshell, yes, it's possible to keep them together, yes, it may be possible to get Ians' head screwed straight, and which development you prefer depends also on your preferences and kinks, this is a porn game afterall.

At the moment i am torn between cucking the hell out of Ian, while Mina stays with him, and pushing for a breakup to officially claim her for MyEdwin as a Lover / Girlfriend.

 

[selberdreher]

To conclude this little trilogy, i'd like to focus on Mina, because sofar Ian was very prominent, while Mina was kind of a backdrop in most of the posts regarding their relationship.

The Question here would be: what course of action is in Minas best interest?

and without adding much more from myself,

i kind of like Machetes take on it here and there:

Nope. Because Mina broke up with Ian because he was a liar manwhore. So it makes not much sense for a white knighting MC to get with her when MC is also a liar manwhore.

in conjunction with axeafxas post on abusive relationships in general and how it can be applied to Mina x Ian. Worth a full repost in my opinion.

While I agree viewpoints can be different I have known plenty of relationships irl that lasted way longer than they should have - it does not mean the people 'clicked' its just that the relationships were abusive. And I personally think Ian and Mina's relationship was a bit abusive at least the way it is portrayed in the game. When you enter your first relationship, it is incredibly easy to be taken advantage of. You dont know your limits you dont know how to properly say no and you dont know how and where to draw the line. There is a lot more to relationships than just sexual compatibility - trust in your partner and not being emotionally manipulative/abusive is far far more important. While Mina was also willing to cheat on Ian with Edwin, I view it as a natural consequence of Ian's actions where he was a total dick to her for several months.

I think as with anything after the first couple of breakups you learn what worked and what did not and you apply what you learnt to future relationships going forward. There is of course the possibility that you may be lucky and you meet someone who is a good fit for you in your very first relationship but I think that when it comes to abusive relationships, someone who has dated and broken up in the past is more likely to stand up to their abusive partner and not be a doormat as compared to someone who is in their first relationship.

Bottomline is: as much as Ian is a threat to her well-being, choosing our MC over him is not necessarily better.

 

[Deleted member 4058859]

I don't think that anyone is debating that Ian has been a shitty boyfriend to Mina (or, for that matter, a relatively shitty person in general).

My post was in response to the statement saying Mina stayed with Ian for so long because they clicked and I disagreed with that viewpoint. I respect people's choices of wanting to explore alternate routes - I am doing that myself and exploring the asshole paths because I think the Kat route is very well written. My post was simply a general statement about relationships in response to the guy trying to justify Ian's behavior.

The right thing to do in my opinion is to give Mina her space and urge her to break up with Ian without taking advantage of her. My canon playthrough though is going to be different because 1) It is a game 2) I am a hypocrite, 3) I am a manwhore and 4) Mina is hot.

 

[Idontplay]

He will bring the club in Mina.

Poor Mina…

 

[ename144]

Absolutely, it took 20 years of emotional neglect from his Mother, around 8+ years of influence from Chuck and ~3 years of CarnationClub to mold Ian into the young man he is today.
Victoria and Edwin battled these bad influences by being there for him for lets say 10 to 12+ (minus the last 3 years they hadn't much contact) years now. I think the result of this battle speaks for its own.

Yes, it's plausible that positive reinforcement may turn this around, but i don't believe it is possible in this short amount of time we are looking at in PaleCarnation. And it's not really plausible why we should involve Mina in this process.

In my opinion the right and honorable things to do would be:

• Don't start an affair with Mina, but push for a breakup. Ian is not ready for any relationship in his current condition.
• Get close to Grace and figure out her side of this strange relation she has with her son.
• Try to get Ian into college, to break his player lifestyle as a photographer, and to please Grace as a first step.
• Alienate Ian and his 'Uncle' by any means possible.
• Get Ian out of the Carnation Club by any means possible.
• and last but not least, as already mentioned, push for him to get professional help.

The little help a 'patched up' relationship may provide to this steps doesn't outweigh the cost Mina has to pay, because she gains little for just as long as Ian needs to better himself, while still suffering from his personality during that time.
This is lost time she could spend instead with someone else with a healthy personality in a healthy relationship.

I'd say that's her choice to make, though. You said in a later post that what's in Mina's best interest is the important point, but I think that's only true if Mina is the one deciding what's in her interest. People keep saying we should encourage her to break up with Ian, but that skips the question of just why Mina hasn't already done so. It's not like she needs our help to realize dumping him is an option.

To me, the step that's missing from your list is to drill into why Mina is still so reluctant to end things with Ian. Sure, maybe she's the sheltered ingenue she seems to be on the surface (even though we've learned the initial impression wasn't accurate); if she's just nervous about finding someone else, then yeah, there's nothing here worth saving. But if Mina really does see something meaningful in Ian and still wants to make things work, it seems somewhat presumptuous to override her wishes on the assumption we know best based purely on the small snippet of their relationship that we've been shown.

It seems better to help Mina make sense of her feelings. Lay out the options, the stakes and the pitfalls, and let her decide for herself what she wants. If she still wants Ian, I'm not going to turn away a willing ally just because she might wind up being mistaken.

 

[selberdreher]

I'd say that's her choice to make, though.

Ultimately it's her choice, we can't break up for her, she will do this step or not (probably based on her Killian Romance Score).
It's not unusual to turn to friends or other persons of trust, if someone is faced with a hard decision. And instead of being ambiguous and basically saying you're on your own there (which you, ename144, don't, by showing her the pros and cons), i prefer to give an honest assessment of the situation (which is quite close to your approach) and a clear recommendation (which she can ignore or not). Especially in relationships where someone gets the short end of the stick, they often have a hard time to end things without any external input and push. Your approach is in my opinion the better one for less distinct situations.
I'd like to recall also (again) axeafxas

When you enter your first relationship, it is incredibly easy to be taken advantage of. You dont know your limits you dont know how to properly say no and you dont know how and where to draw the line.

Which i believe pinpoints the situation here.

Lay out the options, the stakes and the pitfalls, and let her decide for herself what she wants.

This works with a grown-up person and not a child, less exaggerated and more related to Mina: she is just too inexperienced and perhaps immature to make full use of your concept.

Just checked in my canon playthrough, MyEdwin chose to kiss her in the bathtub (Casual Lovers) and let her handle things at her own pace, trusting that her Killian Romance Score of zero will seal the deal. Don't really know if that fits into our two categories, but it's probably closer to mine.

 

[Ozygator]

Could be one of those "Japanese game show" videos where you cant see their face (because they are half in a wall) .

Or a bad end where they drug the hell out of the MC with some super-aphrodiasic and bring mom in to see just how much the drug kills any morals he might have. A truly bad end would be them both drugged and part of a giant orgy (or poor Victoria used by the entire club after Edwin has his way with her and the drug wears off for him). Not really sure how that end would occur unless he somehow tried to break the club and Kathleen found out about it and wanted to punish/nreak him.

 

[selberdreher]

To me, the step that's missing from your list is to drill into why Mina is still so reluctant to end things with Ian.

I wouldn't call her reluctant, afterall she just found the USB-Stick on Thursday, before this discovery she had no tangible proof of Ians infidelity. And don't forget her bucket list, her alledged first item was "I wanted to know what it felt like to be unfaithful."
Thursdays discovery gave her the justification for it, but she couldn't break up right there and then, if she wanted to act on it.

I try to imagine at the moment how much time i would need after i found out my girlfriend cheated on me until i gathered the guts to actually break-up with her. Stalling the decision for like 1-3 days doesn't seem too reluctant to me. Hm, probably would depend on how exactly i found out...

 

[selberdreher]

God, Simpgor slow down a bit, i know i write a lot, but it takes me hours!
Since i logged in hadn't the chance to reply to one of your post i wanted to and you posted already like 4 more!
Give me some time to catch up, will you?