- Apr 25, 2020
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Romance can take multiple forms, even the most unexpected ones. I don't see why MC can't end up with a carnation. Best love stories are the ones where the odds are against the protagonists.
- Thread starter GIL3D
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- Sep 20, 2018
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Speaking as someone who's here for the romance more than the torment, I don't think the two have clashed to either's detriment thus far. If anything, I think the interplay has benefited both of them. The torments make us worry about the characters, but the romantic moments (sexual or platonic) give us a reason to hope in the face of those threats. Too many stories, IMHO, botch that last element by inflating the threats to such a degree that hope feels like a delusional afterthought. Giving both their proper time in the spotlight is essential.
Obviously the balance will get harder as we progress and the ending will be the acid test, but as I said I think there are ways to pay off the romances with a 'happy' ending that don't invalidate the torments - assuming we choose to go in that direction, of course. I have faith you and GIL will stick the landing with style.
No pressure.
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I very much agree with this.
I very much disagree with this. Both for the (1) goal and the (2) reasoning.
1) I want a lot of romance in my stories, and I want happy endings involving a relationship.
2) The first fragment I quoted IS a big problem in a lot of non-hentai VNs, but it generally pushes things away from romance. "Corruption" is big (god I hate that word), strife and competition over girls is big, but things like holding hands, kissing, joking, stroking? Yeah not so much. Everything under the umbrella of flirting or foreplay tends to be oddly absent.
Agreed on Sophia, they feel like two puzzle pieces together and fit well in conversation.
Also your analysis of Felicia is a big part of what I'm so sympathetic to her; despite her facade of blonde bimbo, she hints at being both intelligent and altruistic, the latter an extremely rare trait in the PaleCanations universe.
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- Oct 18, 2017
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I get really annoyed by people coming in here and bitching about NTR, sharing, harems, demaning a romantic ending etc. Go play a moege if you're looking for a sweet romance. Pale Carnations is first and foremost a story about sexual perversion and the dark side of people's sexuality. Vast majority of the characters are fundamentally broken people incapable of having a healthy relationship, forced by various circumstances to participate in the club. I feel like most endings will be bittersweet, and demanding "good" romantic endings just misses the point of the whole game. Most of these people were broken by the club, or were already broken. Some people will never get their happy ending, and I think it's obvious that most of these characters will meet a bad end one way or the other.
While I can see where you're coming from, you may want to read TD's post just below mine, and adjust your expectations accordingly.
I'll just repeat myself: I'm quite confident in TD's and GIL's writing chops, and their skills in balancing two extremes (hope and despair) in a tonally coherent ensemble. To me, given the good screenwriting we've seen so far, narrative coherence trumps all other aspects. In other words: I'm in for the ride, wherever it lands.
Thank you!
For Sophia: Definitely, they really are like two fitting puzzle pieces and I think this is not by chance. You know I hope that we will get a Sophia path in PC, despite her being a "latecomer" in the game as far as interesting women go. Hopefully TD and GIL see the potential here, romancing such an amoral and eccentric girl as Doc Sophia is would be a very different tasty experience, hardly the typical dating we see in VNs.
For Felicia: If you play her route just a little bit it becomes obvious that Felicia has the "biggest" facade of all 3 Carnations. Her outside is a Holly Golightly persona, inside she is an intelligent woman artist with more altruism than most in the Pale Carnations universe. She is in PC to gain influence/money to save her old school, if you ask her for money for Rosi, she will give it to you. What might be also overlooked, Feli is the one Carnation we met before the Club and she knows us players a bit better than Rosi or Veronika do. We can make a good impression on her quite early and if keeping to it that shows when we go to Feli´s special place and agree to go with her to the art exhibition. It is clear she is developing feelings for Edwin.
Among the Carnations Felicia is the one who can see beyond Edwin being their "handler" the easiest.
- Apr 16, 2017
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Ya know... Not every bad person gets that karmic backlash. Some of them tend to be Karmic Houdinis that escape the bad ending they look to dish out.
But I'd argue that Pale Carnations takes a LOT of influence from Alice in Wonderland and the look at two sides of the coin in its duality. In order to know the light side, you have to be able to look into the dark side.
Even then, some of the darkest characters can bring out a LOT from those depths that some people aren't quite willing to go. Really, the story is built up on this where you won't learn as much about the Carnations unless you push them. Even then, Kathleen (arguably the darkest character in the Club) brings about MORE that you can chew on. I know I've talked about Veronica being such a pervert right along with how Kathleen hits her with a receipt while also knowing how one tracked that girl is (ex: she insisted on talking to Kathleen with a bad plan right before getting stung for it with the tasers) but once you crack her center, she really shows how fragile she can be when it's not something she's used to. Each character brings so much to the table and I find the relationships interesting as the VN expands.
- Mar 13, 2021
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Question to everybody: is Kathleen the darkest/worst character?
I'm not so sure: how about Warren? August? how about that member who beat a girl and she got hospitalised?
What do you think?
Yes.
August at least seems to live by a creed. Warren is just a dime a dozen thug.
I would bet on Uncle Chuck being the worst. Everyone else has a dark side that is not a big secret at all: Warren is a violent thug, August is a mob boss, Kathleen is a sadist. Uncle Chuck is an amicable college professor who lets you in on a secret that his dark side is being a co-proprietor of an exclusive brothel. After this the shutters go up and you continue to interact with fundamentally the same mask of his as before. He's just a libertine and a bon vivant, too deep in pussy to notice that the club is about destroying people's lives and souls.
- Dec 6, 2021
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So far she seems like the worst person, I don't care what the doctor says she is the lesser evil.
Warren is just a thug who would put a bullet between his eyes without hesitation.
August as a mobster has surely done a lot of terrible things, but if we stick to the current time he would say that at least he has principles and values family.
Uncle Chuck is difficult to classify because I have a feeling he may be very dark, my only conclusion so far is that the club is his amusement park and he sees all women as dolls for his entertainment without caring in the slightest about their well-being, which which he makes very clear when Edwin goes to him to ask for help with Rosalind's situation, but the worst thing is how he is expressing his twisted vision of the world to his nephew.
- Apr 16, 2017
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Her character really sells it.
We know she's full blown psychosadist.
August has a certain set of standards that you can get behind or leave behind. Remember that he stopped a young recruit from getting his tongue burned.
Chuck is only accepting of family being harmed in which he'll do harm. But he's not above darkness as his games with Sophia show.
Warren is a gun to be directed while Jacob has a bit of compassion and can take care of things as muscle. But Jacob's secret is his empathy which can mean he's easier to be controlled as the entire Emma episode showed. Warren is basically ruthless and the wolf comes out of him.
For the most part, the patrons are darkness and the Club enables it but you have certain people that have something in them that motivates them to care outside of money. Ian, August do care about the girls a bit more. Meanwhile, Chuck and Kathleen just want to pursue their interests. But the reason this one works comes to, again, Kathleen. Honest about her intentions, high class, side deals and hustles... I point to Kathleen because that's where you go from brothel ideas of Chuck and August to forcing expired sperm down the gullet of Veronica and screwing her by forcing a tarantula on her back which is *chef's kiss* for "We aren't in Kansas anymore"
I've been going back and forth on whether or not to post this for some time, but I will make the clearly controversial statement that Kathleen is not "evil", rather she is a libertarian crossed with the civilian equivalent of a drill sergeant, and in many ways a life coach, which might be part of the reason she and Veronica have the greatest animosity to each other as they're essentially the same profession using extremely different philosophies to achieve their goals.
Let's look at her background. We know that Kathleen, like all other sadist/BDSM adults, had to discover this facet of her character, and in this discovery, she realized how "freeing" this epiphany was to learn what/who she truly is, and decided to embrace it whole-heartedly. However, she quickly learned that her "true self" was not socially acceptable, thus she was ostracized, and learned that she had to wear a mask, and hide her true self. Over time, as she naturally sought out "compatible" partners/playthings, she also discovered that most, and eventually everybody, also wears a mask, hiding their true selves. I describe her as a libertarian because she eventually forms the philosophy that society requiring everyone to always wear a mask is not only a fabricated society that enforces lies is logically bad/evil, but that a good society would permit everyone to openly live as they see fit, provided of course no actual/non-consenual harm is brought on another party. Given her "alpha" character, she naturally seeks to then be the agent of societal change. Her husband doesn't seem to be compatible with her BDSM desires, so I believe she married him as a means to enact societal change, or to increase her own power standing to provide enough resources to construct her own little "perfect society", which she has found, to an extent, at the Club, though August, Chuck, and the patrons, don't let her fully embrace herself, so she takes what she can.
Moving up to her "modus operandi," although she may appear heartless, that's part of her act that I'll get to in a second, she genuinely cares, as we see with her concern over the well-being of the house girls, and how she sends Edwin after Hana. If she was truly a sadistic heartless bitch, she would have gleamed at the thought of Hana stewing and growing angrier, especially if this wrankled August's plans. Like any life coach, driven by the philosophy that everyone would be happier and healthier if they just all dropped their masks, Kathleen seeks to improve the livelihoods of those whom she influences. However, while typical life coaches as Veronica use encouragement to drive their clients to the goal, Kathleen, like a drill sergeant, uses antagonism to drive the person, which some will claim is more effective, as we can see with Veronica. Through the competition so far, Edwin has taken the encouraging route with Veronica, which is effective in getting her out of a glum, but doesn't actually motivate her to win; rather it is the thought of taking down/beating Kathleen that envigorates Veronica to not just survive, but to dominate. Veronica would not feel this way if Kathleen treated her the same way Edwin does, or Hana would, thus she might run out of resolve before the finish line. The other thing that good life coaches and all drill sergeants do is push an individual beyond their perceived limits and discover their true limits, which are also pushed further with time, and this is what Kathleen is doing by pressing the Carnations' fears, anxieties, inhibitions, and resiliency. The last exhibition particularly pushed Veronica beyond what she previously thought she could handle, forced Felicia to admit and have a better understanding of her own self, and tested Rosalind's own resolve. The secret to drill sergeants, that every military recruit discovers months or years later, is that the drill sergeant was actually their strongest ally on their road to success, but that he/she must always maintain a facade of "the enemy" in order to create the animosity, that "fire that refines and reforges the metal", to make them stronger, and that is exactly what Kathleen is doing. The counter-argument to this type of training is of course the emotional scars it creates, and this is an accurate objection, but one can't deny that the Carnations are stronger in Week 3 than they were in Week 0. No, she's not doing this out of altruism for the Carnations, but again out of her belief that this will make a better society, even if that society does not extend beyond the walls of the Club. Her influencing of Edwin does better solidify said culture in the Club, as the Carnations are temporary, and even a little outside if Edwin does indeed become a successful doctor. Now, Kathleen is also a realist. Although she is not a fan of the patrons' extreme treatments of the house girls, she knows that everything she's permitted to be and do is dependent on the Club doing financially well, so she tolerates as much as possible, but tries to place fail-safes (like giving Dahlia such autonomy to watch out for the girls and do necessary staffing swaps, and praising Edwin for "occupying" one of the girls). However, the threat of becoming a house girl helps her in motivating Carnations to push harder for victory.
Is she bad? Yes if you hate anyone who uses that "drill sergeant" tactic; No if you consider "bad" as pure nihilist. I consider August dangerous, and does a lot of bad things (actual crime), but he's not "evil", as he doesn't have any destructive goals. Warren is a typical selfish thug with no true power, so his personality dictates compensation via undisciplined dominance, thus he is "bad". Girl-beating patron is definitely evil as in BDSM 1) any physical strikes must be consenual and 2) know where the threshold of too much damage is and NEVER cross it (a la Edwin's treatment of Harper on his birthday). Comparatively Kathleen is definitely in the good category as all the Carnations have given general consent, her spider thing with Veronica actually did no physical damage to her whatsoever, and she even got Veronica's consent for the big dildo. Now one can argue that the consent was forced, but this was a question of Veronica's priorities: did she take the actual painful dildo, or the harmless spider, and she chose pain over fear (with the spider, I can't say that I blame her as I always skip those frames to "get it off" as fast as possible).
- Mar 13, 2021
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Sorry bro, but you've lost me.
Being born and raised and lived in Continental Europe, I have totally no clue of what a libertarian might be.
I actually did explain it, to an extent: let everyone live the way they want to live, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, or jeopardize another's personal liberty, then no society or government has the right to keep you from doing that. If you want to be religious, agnostic, atheist, or practice a fringe belief, you can. If you want to be single, open, committed, monogamous, or polygamous, you can. If you want take or abstain drugs or engage/neglect prostitution, you can. There is no legal or moral standard beyond "personal liberty" and "do no harm".
- Mar 13, 2021
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Well, let me disagree, then. She's only a sadist and a narcisist sociopath.
It's the political ideology of "hands off" government. The benefits are generally thought of as more privacy and less invasion into people's personal and business life, the downsides are generally thought of as less assistance into people's lives that need it.
This is crap.
Don't take that as a simple put down of your analysis, I was very entertained reading it and I appreciate you putting in the effort. These kinds of analysis posts make the forums worthwhile.
But the end theory is crap. It's always from the position of power that one would seek to justify their behavior as "for the greater good" and stuff like
Ironically, that type of hands-on violation is about as far from libertarianism as you could get, she loves her cabal, abusing her power, and taking it out on those with less power in that arena. Do the people who she's "helping" want that kind of help? If not, it doesn't really matter if they're better off for it in the long run, as improving a person through no choice/free will of their own isn't so much instilling change as creating a learned response to her tyranny.
Again, people confuse fetishes with reality. Kathleen beating up and torturing her employees isn't a "BDSM fetish", it's nothing more than an angry old woman physically abusing people. These actions are often done outside the fetish context of stuff like bedroom play. To refer to her as "discovering her BDSM side" disperses responsibility and the severity of her actions.