VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[hellasz]

I'm under no illusion that we won't eventually leak; I know what this site is about, I was a member of it before I started a project, and I'm one of the few insane devs who enjoys F95's community. We owe a significant amount of our traction and popularity to this site and we wouldn't be where we are without it. So I don't get mad when it does inevitably leak.

I say please enjoy and am happy that people are clamoring to play our work.

HOWEVER, you can't blame me for not wanting it to leak. We are two people splitting the income from this project, and believe it or not, the number of people who will impulse buy an early release because they can't find it free isn't zero. Even if it's just 4-5 people over the course of a day... that's not insignificant to us and I'm grateful we've made it this far without anyone spilling the beans.

...and obviously I can't condone it out of respect for our patrons who support us month after month.

i think it would be dishonest to claim otherwise. id say quite a lot of such games gets popular because of this site, which practically becomes an advertisement of the game, while otherwise you might create a good game and no one knows about it. so pirating is just a fact of life here, give and take.
on the other hand, when youre creating the game, you would much prefer if it wasnt leaked, since any extra money you earn you can put it into the project. and of course, im sure it feels bad for both the developers and supporters when you are selling or buying early access as a benefit for supporting the game, but because of leaks others get it for free. it would be a betrayal of your supporters if you just said "go ahead and pirate it".
this is a pretty grey area in my opinion, and i just try to accept whatever happens. to me, i wait for a leak or if there isnt one ,"buy" it when it drops into the price range i can afford to "lose"(theres only so many i can support) even if it would get leaked soon after, thats just life. my money is still going to support the project i like, so its not a true loss, i wont feel bad about it.

i pray for the success of this project.

 

[Ottoeight]

I live in Brazil, it is almost impossible to support the developers of the games I play, because the local currency is very devalued against the dollar. Today 1 dollar is equivalent to 6 Real (Brazilian currency), a minimum wage is 1500 Real.

Even the lowest levels become expensive for this. An example of the highest level of Patteon costs me equivalent to $285 for an American and the lowest level - almost $20.

In short, I depend on this site to play the games.

i think it would be dishonest to claim otherwise. id say quite a lot of such games gets popular because of this site, which practically becomes an advertisement of the game, while otherwise you might create a good game and no one knows about it. so pirating is just a fact of life here, give and take.
on the other hand, when youre creating the game, you would much prefer if it wasnt leaked, since any extra money you earn you can put it into the project. and of course, im sure it feels bad for both the developers and supporters when you are selling or buying early access as a benefit for supporting the game, but because of leaks others get it for free. it would be a betrayal of your supporters if you just said "go ahead and pirate it".
this is a pretty grey area in my opinion, and i just try to accept whatever happens. to me, i wait for a leak or if there isnt one ,"buy" it when it drops into the price range i can afford to "lose"(theres only so many i can support) even if it would get leaked soon after, thats just life. my money is still going to support the project i like, so its not a true loss, i wont feel bad about it.

i pray for the success of this project.

As I've just pointed out, the Authors are smart, therefore they always release a complete public free version in a couple of weeks.

Back in the early days, when Patreon started, devs were smarter and always released public versions after a few weeks/a month.

That's one of the main reasons why Summertime Saga is the most funded AVN ever: it's always been public and free since day 1, and that's one the main reasons why this game is successful as well, in my opinion.

 

[Momo321]

I live in Brazil, it is almost impossible to support the developers of the games I play, because the local currency is very devalued against the dollar. Today 1 dollar is equivalent to 6 Real (Brazilian currency), a minimum wage is 1500 Real.

Even the lowest levels become expensive for this. An example of the highest level of Patteon costs me equivalent to $285 for an American and the lowest level - almost $20.

In short, I depend on this site to play the games.

I mean here 1 dollar is about R20 (ZAR) so it does become difficult to financially support Devs but a kind word of encouragement and a good review does help too

 

[TD1900]

I live in Brazil, it is almost impossible to support the developers of the games I play, because the local currency is very devalued against the dollar. Today 1 dollar is equivalent to 6 Real (Brazilian currency), a minimum wage is 1500 Real.

Even the lowest levels become expensive for this. An example of the highest level of Patteon costs me equivalent to $285 for an American and the lowest level - almost $20.

In short, I depend on this site to play the games.

Yeah, and that last part is awesome. I wouldn't love adult games like I do if it weren't for Newgounds, Hongfire, Fuwanovel, or F95. It's kinda embarassing that I find it so hard to put into words, but there's somethin so cool that talentless, next-to-no experience horny idiots being able to make something and find an audience for their unique brand of inanity. There's something warm and nostalgic about people getting together to share shitty doujins games, VNs, or whatever.

If this was prompted by what I said though, the thing is, we are making a free game. It's not permanently behind a paywall and we even have a pretty short period between early release and our public one. Now, I'm not saying any of this because I think it'll dissuade a leak. Like I said, it's an eventuality, and we're fortunate to be popular enough that it does happen.

Just saying playing it early just means the next update is that much longer away. So hey, think about that.

 

[Itsuki_desu]

I'm under no illusion that we won't eventually leak; I know what this site is about, I was a member of it before I started a project, and I'm one of the few insane devs who enjoys F95's community. We owe a significant amount of our traction and popularity to this site and we wouldn't be where we are without it. So I don't get mad when it does inevitably leak.

I say please enjoy and am happy that people are clamoring to play our work.

HOWEVER, you can't blame me for not wanting it to leak. We are two people splitting the income from this project, and believe it or not, the number of people who will impulse buy an early release because they're looking to goon on a weekend and can't find it free isn't zero. Even if it's just 4-5 people over the course of a day... that's not insignificant to us and I'm grateful we've made it this far without anyone spilling the beans.

...and obviously I can't condone it out of respect for our patrons who support us month after month.

I absolutely get what you're saying, however.
At this point, the AVN economy has gotten funny. No other game or a Patreon project has this kind of economy.
For video games, you pay $60 once and you get the game forever. For lewd Pateon pics, you get a new batch every month you pay. But for AVNs, you can pay as much as $60 per month to explicitly not get anything but a dev diary with excuses about why they did nothing in the last 2 weeks (not talking about you, obviously, just in general).
Now, I get it that EVENTUALLY, there is a free release. But you do realise that a whole two weeks of early access is playing into FOMO-ness of it, you admit as much. Video games have become savvy to it as well, with all the "advanced access" shit they're pulling for more money.
I genuinely hate these dark patterns made for making money out of people with weak impulse control, and on top of that, no AVN is worth $50 per update.
If it was about $15-20, I'd think about it as a gesture of goodwill, but $50 is just funny.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

If it was about $15-20, I'd think about it as a gesture of goodwill, but $50 is just funny.

It's only $50 for like 3-4 days, then $30 for another 3-4 days then it is $12, then..........free.

 

[Itsuki_desu]

It's only $50 for like 3-4 days, then $30 for another 3-4 days then it is $12, then..........free.

Yeah, and that new game on Steam is $100 only for 3-4 days, and then it's $60. FOMO is FOMO, and it's a massive tool.

 

[reeroll]

It's only $50 for like 3-4 days, then $30 for another 3-4 days then it is $12, then..........free.

bro some like me waited for this update for 2 years

 

[Darreau91]

It's only $50 for like 3-4 days, then $30 for another 3-4 days then it is $12, then..........free.

Feeling highly disrespected as a 7 dollar gold member right now.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

bro some like me waited for this update for 2 years

And so have a lot of other people, a few hours, to a few more days isn't going to make your pecker fall off

Feeling highly disrespected as a 7 dollar gold member right now.

It literally tells you when the release comes out for each tier, not sure how when it tells you right front and center...

 

[TD1900]

t this point, the AVN economy has gotten funny. No other game or a Patreon project has thisnkind of economy.
For video games, you pay $60 once and you get the game forever. For lewd Pateon pics, you get a new batch every month you pay. But for AVNs, you can pay as much as $60 per month to explicitly not get anything but a dev diary with excuses about why they did nothing in the last 2 weeks (not talking about you, obviously, just in general).
Now, I get it that EVENTUALLY, there is a free release. But you do realise that a whole two weeks of early access is playing into FOMO-ness of it, you admit as much. Video games have become savvy to it as well, with all the "advanced access" shit they're pulling for more money.

I mean... I don't know. It's a question of what people can afford. It's not necessarily a matter of "material worth" either, since a core aspect of Patreon is patronage. You're aiding artists to create with your support, ideally because you vibe with what they do and like the warm fuzzy feelings of contributing to things being made. Believe it or not, there's people who stay at the $50 tier outside of release months. That's a triple A game every month for a project that release every six-to-nine. It's sounds absurd, I know, but people value things differently. I'd like to think people who can't afford it aren't blowing 50 bucks they don't have to get a free porn game 7 days early.

I get what you're getting at though. The subscription model itself has a ton of negatives. It forces VNs to release serially even if it's sub optimal for the story,encourages devs to drag there feet, and there's not really any accountability beyond stopping support and people strangely don't seem to do that even under the most egregious cases for some reason. Yet, at the same time, guys like me and GIL wouldn't be able to spend this much time (5 years at this point) working on our passion project. You wouldn't really have the glut of games out there (largely abandoned and unfinished as they are) without it. For better and worse.

 

[Ragnar]

Yeah, and that last part is awesome. I wouldn't love adult games like I do if it weren't for Newgounds, Hongfire, Fuwanovel, or F95. It's kinda embarassing that I find it so hard to put into words, but there's somethin so cool that talentless, next-to-no experience horny idiots being able to make something and find an audience for their unique brand of inanity. There's something warm and nostalgic about people getting together to share shitty doujins games, VNs, or whatever.

If this was prompted by what I said though, the thing is, we are making a free game. It's not permanently behind a paywall and we even have a pretty short period between early release and our public one. Now, I'm not saying any of this because I think it'll dissuade a leak. Like I said, it's an eventuality, and we're fortunate to be popular enough that it does happen.

Just saying playing it early just means the next update is that much longer away. So hey, think about that.

So many memories.

 

[packor]

I absolutely get what you're saying, however.
At this point, the AVN economy has gotten funny. No other game or a Patreon project has this kind of economy.
For video games, you pay $60 once and you get the game forever. For lewd Pateon pics, you get a new batch every month you pay. But for AVNs, you can pay as much as $60 per month to explicitly not get anything but a dev diary with excuses about why they did nothing in the last 2 weeks (not talking about you, obviously, just in general).
Now, I get it that EVENTUALLY, there is a free release. But you do realise that a whole two weeks of early access is playing into FOMO-ness of it, you admit as much. Video games have become savvy to it as well, with all the "advanced access" shit they're pulling for more money.
I genuinely hate these dark patterns made for making money out of people with weak impulse control, and on top of that, no AVN is worth $50 per update.
If it was about $15-20, I'd think about it as a gesture of goodwill, but $50 is just funny.

It's because these "donations" are required for the livelihood of the developers of the project. Those other non-"AVN" projects have an idea of how much they may need and they try to hit that goal, and then they do their thing. Lots more people buy into them than these "AVN"'s because these "AVN"'s are quite niche.

It'd be impossible to sustain these projects without continuous donations, the dev. won't be able to make a living, but I do agree that they're absolutely not worth that much money, but some people are willing to pay it. It is what it is.

 

[DarkLords00]

As for me, as I currently don't have the means or stable income to support the devs financially I have no trouble in waiting for the public relase. Hell, I'll probably still will regardless if it were to leak if merely due to respect to the developers and of course those who suppport the game financially.

I genuinely hate these dark patterns made for making money out of people with weak impulse control, and on top of that, no AVN is worth $50 per update.

That's more on each consumer fault if I'm being honest . No developer be it from AVN or triple A games is responsible for their customers money, it's up to them how much and on what they spent it. As long as they are not being swindled it's not like other people that want to sell you stuff are responsible for your money.

 

[Biscardone]

Yet, at the same time, guys like me and GIL wouldn't be able to spend this much time (5 years at this point) working on our passion project. You wouldn't really have the glut of games out there (largely abandoned and unfinished as they are) without it. For better and worse.

That's the core point to me. Yes, Patreon is a system that can be gamed and leveraged to promote, as you said, lazyness and lack of responsibility from authors. At the same time, it allows and incentivizes quality gems of a game like Pale Carnations to exist - because the alternative of a single payment at the end of the production cycle would be untenable.
So, to me, Patreon is a net positive. Of course, I also advocate cautiousness on the patrons' side: be savvy, inform yourself, get to know the authors if possible, reward only people you think deserve it and so on. But I think the effort is more than worthy in the end, as Pale Carnations proves - just ignore the pile of cruft on the bottom, and aim for the better experiences.

 

[Itsuki_desu]

It's a question of what people can afford. It's not necessarily a matter of "material worth" either, since a core aspect of Patreon is patronage. You're aiding artists to create with your support, ideally because you vibe with what they do and like the warm fuzzy feelings of contributing to things being made.

Patreon is mainly a tool that helps, not an answer to hows and whys. Not many people go, "Patreon's core aspect is patronage, so I'm now okay with paying X for nothing."
That said, I am aware of this. I've been subscribed to your Patreon for a non-insignificant number of months for $5 (it says $7 now for some reason, so I may be misremembering the amount), but I stopped because after thinking about it, I deemed that my support was "enough," and because I find early access for more money highly disagreeable.
And while I agree that it's not necessarily a matter of "material worth," it's a two-way street. I can afford $50, many can. But you're simply not providing enough value to justify it.
That said, adding people to the credits is a nice first step. Providing something meaningful is what higher tiers should do, in my opinion, not induce FOMO.

I get what you're getting at though. The subscription model itself has a ton of negatives. It forces VNs to release serially even if it's sub optimal for the story,encourages devs to drag there feet, and there's not really any accountability beyond stopping support and people strangely don't seem to do that even under the most egregious cases for some reason. Yet, at the same time, guys like me and GIL wouldn't be able to spend this much time (5 years at this point) working on our passion project. You wouldn't really have the glut of games out there (largely abandoned and unfinished as they are) without it. For better and worse.

As a user, it gives me nothing but negatives. When I buy a game, I can enjoy a complete product, start to finish. If I subscribe to an ongoing game, I do so in knowing that it has core available content, then some more will be added in the future, and, at some point, it will stop.
But with AVNs, it's like you said - there is no accountability. One famous developer of two popular games hasn't released an update to either of them in a year. And he can outright stop and no one will be able to do anything about it. He got people invested in his story and his characters, and he can simply stop because on paper, he has no obligations to anyone. And we know how people treat moral obligations.
So yeah, pardon me for disliking the model, even though I like you, your game, and wish you success. But also pardon me for wanting it get leaked early.

 

[Itsuki_desu]

That's more on each consumer fault if I'm being honest . No developer be it from AVN or triple A games is responsible for their customers money, it's up to them how much and on what they spent it. As long as they are not being swindled it's not like other people that want to sell you stuff are responsible for your money.

That's almost victim-blaming. Dark patterns are called that for a reason, they're there because people who came up with them know human psyche and know how to manipulate it.

 

[devplayer123]

In order to contain the moods/anxiety, should you or someone who is already playing the update, tell you which girls are getting obscene scenes this time?

 

[Sneaky Heresiarch]

That's almost victim-blaming. Dark patterns are called that for a reason, they're there because people who came up with them know human psyche and know how to manipulate it.

Likewise you could argue the contrary and say that you are patronizing people cause you know better than them how to spend their money.

I support 6 games even on off-release months because I enjoy the community around them, the discords, the fact that I can have access to chat with people with the same kinks gathered around the same place and because the devs are great people.

I don't feel like being swindled cause I don't consider that "nothing". By contrast, I never subscribe to access all games from someone like Paradox because all I'm interested in is the HoI4 singleplayer and I don't need to give them funding on a monthly basis. So I just buy it once and play.

It's fine to pirate and be on f95. It creates traffic and marketing. But it's also fine to support devs on Patreon. Neither model is inherently bad cause people have agency to decide what to do. So I would use the vitriol sparingly imho.

 

[Itsuki_desu]

Likewise you could argue the contrary and say that you are patronizing people cause you know better than them how to spend their money.

I support 6 games even on off-release months because I enjoy the community around them, the discords, the fact that I can have access to chat with people with the same kinks gathered around the same place and because the devs are great people.

I don't feel like being swindled cause I don't consider that "nothing". By contrast, I never subscribe to access all games from someone like Paradox because all I'm interested in is the HoI4 singleplayer and I don't need to give them funding on a monthly basis. So I just buy it once and play.

It's fine to pirate and be on f95. It creates traffic and marketing. But it's also fine to support devs on Patreon. Neither model is inherently bad cause people have agency to decide what to do. So I would use the vitriol sparingly imho.

Nah, feel free to do whatever you want, of course. I'm just saying that there should be baseline value that's provided. If you want to do something on top of that - great!