VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Alfred the Fallen]

The Mina scene, on the other hand, was more about the internal state of the MC. Mina is just 'going along for the ride', so there isn't the need to create multiple branching paths because the story behind the sex is the fact that he's going to fuck his best friend's hot as fuck girlfriend. You don't need a more compelling narrative or branching stories for this.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

Mina isn't just a side chick you can fuck. She's an important character and a primary love interest. Her scenes deserve as much attention and care as the Carnations. There are a ton of choices in the game that allow us to shape our relationship with Mina, and they start before she's even introduced. So when we finally get a sex scene with Mina, it's not going be just because she's hot. And if the game treats it that way, it's going to feel wrong.

Which it did.

There's a brief moment in the middle of Mina's first sex scene where the main character has a bizarre monologue and imagines Mina strapped into some strange contraptions as if she were one of the Carnation's working girls. And it sticks out like a sore thumb if you are on the low toughness route where you have consistently voiced displeasure at what is going on at work. It completely pulled me out of that scene and really killed the mood. It wasted an otherwise great setup that had been building for a long while. If those thoughts were gated behind a high toughness score, then I wouldn't have seen them and the scene would've been perfect.

What makes it particularly odd, is that there is one brief moment in that scene gated behind a toughness score. Over 24 toughness and he'll think to himself "C'mon! Cum for me! One last time for me you dirty cunt!", while a lower score has him think "C'mon! Cum for me! One last time". A very small difference, but a very important one. It helps keep our character's actions consistent with what we have chosen in the past.

It's the small details that separate the good from the great. Little things like the difference between the MC being formal or informal with his boss, which is determined by a variable set by a choice you made early in the game. It helps make different playthroughs feel equally valid, and it shows that the developers care about each path equally.

 

[OsirianObsidian]

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

Mina isn't just a side chick you can fuck. She's an important character and a primary love interest. Her scenes deserve as much attention and care as the Carnations. There are a ton of choices in the game that allow us to shape our relationship with Mina, and they start before she's even introduced. So when we finally get a sex scene with Mina, it's not going be just because she's hot. And if the game treats it that way, it's going to feel wrong.

Which it did.

There's a brief moment in the middle of Mina's first sex scene where the main character has a bizarre monologue and imagines Mina strapped into some strange contraptions as if she were one of the Carnation's working girls. And it sticks out like a sore thumb if you are on the low toughness route where you have consistently voiced displeasure at what is going on at work. It completely pulled me out of that scene and really killed the mood. It wasted an otherwise great setup that had been building for a long while. If those thoughts were gated behind a high toughness score, then I wouldn't have seen them and the scene would've been perfect.

What makes it particularly odd, is that there is one brief moment in that scene gated behind a toughness score. Over 24 toughness and he'll think to himself "C'mon! Cum for me! One last time for me you dirty cunt!", while a lower score has him think "C'mon! Cum for me! One last time". A very small difference, but a very important one. It helps keep our character's actions consistent with what we have chosen in the past.

It's the small details that separate the good from the great. Little things like the difference between the MC being formal or informal with his boss, which is determined by a variable set by a choice you made early in the game. It helps make different playthroughs feel equally valid, and it shows that the developers care about each path equally.

This is fair enough - but again, what you are referring to is an internal state within the MC and it isn't a conscious choice. As you said, the scene would have worked well had that one image been gated behind a toughness score (I've never had a problem with it but then again, I've never tried to play a character that would have a problem with it). But I think you're missing my main point.

I'm not saying Mina doesn't deserve attention and care. Mina is my favourite and I want a great scene with her. I'm saying that girls like her and Hana are going to respond a lot differently to the MC doing certain things during sex because they are in a relationship outside of the competition, and that's going to limit what is possible to the point where it's almost a given that it will be more linear. There are things the MC can do to a Carnation and get away with because even if they don't like it, at the end of the day they are still in the competition to win, regardless if they think the MC is a cunt. That's why scenes with them can branch out in many different directions depending if you want to be nice or an asshole. They will be back at the club and doing tasks with the MC regardless. He can play it off that he was just doing his job, and the show goes on.

It would be a poor story if the MC did the same thing to either Mina or Hana and there wasn't any consequences to him doing something that they didn't consent to or they had a big problem with after the fact (but did in the heat of the moment). And that makes the actual mechanics of the game difficult because now you're going down the path of locking out Hana/Mina for any players who want to indulge their inner asshole and creating what is in a sense a bad ending to the story. So the creators are naturally limited to exactly what kind of choices they can have if they want to keep both Mina and Hana as main characters in the game, because their opinion/desire matters if the story is to continue.

Of course, they could go down the path of writing extra scenes for these bad situations (and then write the next sex scene the MC has with them as makeup/hate sex, which would be super hot), but the whole point of the original post was about reducing the amount of time that is being spent between updates, not increasing them.

 

[Takkatakka]

The core problem is, that a lot of people just want as many branches and decisions as possible. If you just have a finite amount of paths you can make, you should focus on what is most important. I honestly could do with less decisions during sex scenes if that is a step that would leave more development time to other things.

For me decisions like the one at the end of the current content are much more important than a decision between anal or vagina sex during a sex scene that might not really have any consequences outside of small dialogue changes and different animations and frames that both take time to make that could be used elsewhere.

Right now I have no idea, how many branches the developers want to make in the end. There seems to be an exclusive Hana path now and there probably will be an exclusive Mina path and maybe a path with both. But I don't know if there will also be a path for each of the three carnations or any mix between all five. There also seems to be a "Kathreen's lackey" path.

So obviously all these paths need development time and it will only get "worse" in terms of how much of the content in the game the player will actually see during one playthrough, so something might have to give, to keep updates at a steady pace.

 

[Zerorox]

I do love this game a lot (numero uno in my rating now) so please don't even try going all that "White knight" on me, beware, a bit of critics:
Tbh I'm a bit surprised 'bout all that foreplay style sex scenes' with Mina, we know she's not virgin, and we know her boyfriend (Who almost surely fucks her Hard), so it feels strange at least.
Like few days ago got Hard fucked by Ian, and now only teasing and foreplay games with Edwin. C'mon... adult People in real life aren't ending doin' sex on foreplay phase, they're having sex or not havin' sex.
Yeah I know, a bit of porn logic here, end of rant anyway.

Also I've seen a lot posts 'bout MC corrupting innocent Mina, omg open your eyes, she's seducing MC quite openly...
Veronica is smart, can't forget her words' bout Mina after first gym interactions. And how long she know Mina, like 1-1,5 hours))

Ok, Hana (dry humping fetishist) have a lot of excuses for that "slowburn" sex progression, explained at least, can't argue a lot.

 

[Takkatakka]

I do love this game a lot so please no "White knighting" on me, beware, a bit of critics:
Tbh I'm a bit surprised 'bout all that foreplay style sex scenes' with Mina, we know she's not virgin, and we know her boyfriend (Who almost surely fucks her Hard), so it feels strange at least.
Like few days ago got Hard fucked by Ian, and now only teasing and foreplay games with Edwin. C'mon... adult People in real life aren't ending doin' sex on foreplay phase, they're having sex or not havin' sex.
Yeah I know, a bit of porn logic here, end of rant anyway.

Also I've seen a lot posts 'bout MC corrupting innocent Mina, omg open your eyes, she's seducing MC quite openly...
Veronica is smart, can't forget her words' bout Mina after first gym interactions. And how long she know Mina, like 1-1,5 hours))

Ok, Hana (dry humping fetishist) have a lot of excuses for that "slowburn" sex progression, explained at least, can't argue a lot.

I think for Mina part of it is the fact that she is somewhat in control here for the first time. There really isn't even that much foreplay. You have like 2 scenes with one actually being missable. And of course there is also the simple fact that this is a game and you want to build-up to something and not give everything to the player right away.

I mean compared to Eternum PC really doesn't do much teasing.

 

[TD1900]

I do love this game a lot so please no "White knighting" on me, beware, a bit of critics:
Tbh I'm a bit surprised 'bout all that foreplay style sex scenes' with Mina, we know she's not virgin, and we know her boyfriend (Who almost surely fucks her Hard), so it feels strange at least.
Like few days ago got Hard fucked by Ian, and now only teasing and foreplay games with Edwin. C'mon... adult People in real life aren't ending doin' sex on foreplay phase, they're having sex or not havin' sex.
Yeah I know, a bit of porn logic here, end of rant anyway.

That's fair. I hate the whole stairway to heaven approach that some VNs take as well. If the only thing you can do to keep players around is to drip feed hj -> bj -> sex, then I think you should reconsider how you look at your scenario. People fuck, that's like the default.

With that one Mina scene, I was a bit apprehensive myself of it coming across that way, but after having her piss herself from going 10 rounds with Edwin's tongue and then getting one man bukkake blasted... it felt like a sufficient place to end it. In some ways, what they did seems more lewd than if they had just simply smashed.

 

[TheVengefulOne]

I do love this game a lot (numero uno in my rating now) so please don't even try going all that "White knight" on me, beware, a bit of critics:
Tbh I'm a bit surprised 'bout all that foreplay style sex scenes' with Mina, we know she's not virgin, and we know her boyfriend (Who almost surely fucks her Hard), so it feels strange at least.
Like few days ago got Hard fucked by Ian, and now only teasing and foreplay games with Edwin. C'mon... adult People in real life aren't ending doin' sex on foreplay phase, they're having sex or not havin' sex.
Yeah I know, a bit of porn logic here, end of rant anyway.

Also I've seen a lot posts 'bout MC corrupting innocent Mina, omg open your eyes, she's seducing MC quite openly...
Veronica is smart, can't forget her words' bout Mina after first gym interactions. And how long she know Mina, like 1-1,5 hours))

Ok, Hana (dry humping fetishist) have a lot of excuses for that "slowburn" sex progression, explained at least, can't argue a lot.

Think missing a bit of the point here clearly everyone can see Mina wanted to jump the MC's bones after the scene at the Club, however this is about the MC being reluctant to go down the rabbit hole of fucking his Best friend's girl.

And not just that when you see the dialogue about the Carnations as well in particular the motherly one, Rose? I think, maybe it was Rosalyn.
Anyways point is the MC is reluctant because he has unknowingly blinded himself about the nature of people. He clearly thinks that they would not do these sorts of things if they did not have to or wouldn't enjoy them.
But as the story progresses we can see that they clearly would and do enjoy these things.

And this all stems from him convincing himself that what his mother did was only for his benefit and would otherwise not do it. So we have to ask was it only for his benefit or did she enjoy it more than he realizes.

So it's a dilemma does he choose to see people for what they really are or try and bring out the best in them? And should he act the way he is supposed to, or give into his baser instincts? That is the question being asked here.

So the "slow burn" you're talking about actually makes a lot of sense story wise.

 

[BrockLanders]

That's fair. I hate the whole stairway to heaven approach that some VNs take as well. If the only thing you can do to keep players around is to drip feed hj -> bj -> sex, then I think you should reconsider how you look at your scenario. People fuck, that's like the default.

With that one Mina scene, I was a bit apprehensive myself of it coming across that way, but after having her piss herself from going 10 rounds with Edwin's tongue and then getting one man bukkake blasted... it felt like a sufficient place to end it. In some ways, what they did seems more lewd than if they had just simply smashed.

Considering Mina's mother's multiple marriages affecting her perception of men -after we watch her repeatedly get manipulated by Ian trying to be some perverted shell of an alpha male- I think of Mina as someone holding back greatly because of what she perceives others expect of her. She has a list of fantasies that she's been scared shitless to do more with other than simply consider acting on them. I get the impression that she knows she'd be good at embodying the streets/sheets metaphor but she doesn't quite know how to be that for someone correctly. Like she worries she'll give up her lewdest behavior to someone and they'll treat it as a going away present and leave her... but if she tells someone what she really feels, they'll stop respecting her as a lady. She feels she can't be both. She's scared of turning on the faucet because she doesn't know how to turn the handle between lady and woman to a manageable temperature that won't get so hot or cold as to make Edwin jump out of the shower (heh).

That's why I've head-canoned that she's overly cautious to her own sexual development's detriment. Look at how she acts as if she's doing something wrong if you have Edwin use his phone call with her. It's as if she feels guilty for preparing to masturbate thinking about him rather than just tell him she was when he calls and just continue... as if that wouldn't be something they both would enjoy. She throws the dildo aside as if he'll see it through the phone lol Which is crazy because she knows what he's capable of after he watered her bedroom with her.

She likes him and she's worried and unsure. She's a woman with needs and doesn't know how to come to terms with the idea that she can have those personal needs outside of her partner's purview and still be a submissive little slut drenched in cum just for that one guy she really likes. He did all that wonderful degradation and then became perfectly sensitive to her. Edwin wouldn't mind. And when she finally loses control, I'm sure he'll be there to dial her back in... I hope.

The lead up to that cunnilingus scene was amazingly sexy. Their chemistry was perfect, and as you already said, that was the sexiest, filthiest resolution you could possibly write, and then I would add that he treated her like a lady anyway. Even though I reside in Hana-stan I still like to travel to Mina-ville for fresh head pats.

 

[Zerorox]

It's very very small rant from me, and only cause my expectations are super high for PC, and I want it to be perfect to almost unhealthy degree, comparing to other games totally no reason to argue tbh)
And tbh Mina is friendzoned in the very end on "my canon" playthrough, thanks again for that scene, it give Me more satisfaction then all sex scenes together

And I like Mina as character with interesting personality and interactions but no warm feelings towards her, I'd rather go some dark route with her (and I'm often reluctant to "go dark" even with Evil bitches, that harm MC directly)

Just remember some Inc game (NMM) situation with sis...roommate, she gives MC second blowjob after many many chapters of Teasing but rejects a simple kiss cause it's too much

 

[RHFlash]

Wait a minute. TD is looking for feedback. Time for my magnum opus

 

[Zerorox]

Wait a minute. TD is looking for feedback. Time for my magnum opus View attachment 2429333

Ahah, this game surely provoke people to think and analize a lot, *walls of text" time

 

[ReservoirCreature]

Doing that i had all the friendship points necessary to give the hug Veronica needed after that scene.

I still got the hug despite not going all out on her. Good scene and it really bummed me out that Veronica tries to walk it back on you after the fact.

 

[fute8848]

It's very very small rant from me, and only cause my expectations are super high for PC, and I want it to be perfect to almost unhealthy degree, comparing to other games totally no reason to argue tbh)
And tbh Mina is friendzoned in the very end on "my canon" playthrough, thanks again for that scene, it give Me more satisfaction then all sex scenes together

And I like Mina as character with interesting personality and interactions but no warm feelings towards her, I'd rather go some dark route with her (and I'm often reluctant to "go dark" even with Evil bitches, that harm MC directly)

Just remember some Inc game (NMM) situation with sis...roommate, she gives MC second blowjob after many many chapters of Teasing but rejects a simple kiss cause it's too much

I played twice but i just realzied that i don't really understand the basic setting here .....could you enlighten me ??? Does the club client allowed to fuck our "carnation girls" , or thare are some other restristions?

 

[rippertipper]

Take two of my favorite scenes for example: the Felicia sex scene in Elias' office and Mina's "all you can eat buffet." The Felicia scene has a ton of branching: vaginal or anal, and then positional choices after that. The Mina one is a lot more straight forward, you just choose the kind of tone you take with her and how you finish. I love both these scenes, but there is an argument to be made that a more unified, singular Felicia scene would've been more potent than any individual branch while also taking less work.

Anyone got any thoughts on that?

I hate Felicia. I love hating Felicia. I also can't get enough of her. I love that Felicia, as a fictional character, provokes these deeply contradictory feelings in me. That scene with her was absolutely masterful, imho. The choices being available to the player for that scene mirrored well the actual relationship dynamics between Felicia and Edwin in a palpable extra-narrative sense and elevated what would still be a hot and sexual scene to a sensual and resonating scene, one I still often think back on. That being said, I'm not saying every scene needs such level of interactivity and choice. You had mentioned that 'balance is key', and I would humbly support your view on that. So far you and GIL seem to best understand how to craft meaningful and provocative story beats and scenes. In short, I think you two know what you're doing and also second-guessing oneself is natural and common. Seems most in this thread agree.

Like few days ago got Hard fucked by Ian, and now only teasing and foreplay games with Edwin. C'mon... adult People in real life aren't ending doin' sex on foreplay phase, they're having sex or not havin' sex.
Yeah I know, a bit of porn logic here, end of rant anyway.

Ehhhhh, I think you're missing something vital in that dynamic. Mina had been dating Ian for a long while, while sexually Edwin is new. She had most likely grown comfortable with Ian during that time. I have noticed, particularly if one person is looking for more than just a hookup/netflix and chill( or whatever kids call it these days), it isn't terribly uncommon to just engage in a little foreplay. Whether this is from an idea of someone "wanting to take things slowly" or from an idea of "leave them wanting more," who can say? Hell, sometimes even when reconnecting with an old lover, you enjoy the ride and stretch it out. Teasing someone is fun. Feeling desired is also fun. There are a lot of reasons you won't immediately knock boots with someone, no matter your sexual experience. So I at least found the scene made sense in that regard. Maybe I'm the only one. Maybe not.

 

[fute8848]

I hate Felicia. I love hating Felicia. I also can't get enough of her. I love that Felicia, as a fictional character, provokes these deeply contradictory feelings in me. That scene with her was absolutely masterful, imho. The choices being available to the player for that scene mirrored well the actual relationship dynamics between Felicia and Edwin in a palpable extra-narrative sense and elevated what would still be a hot and sexual scene to a sensual and resonating scene, one I still often think back on. That being said, I'm not saying every scene needs such level of interactivity and choice. You had mentioned that 'balance is key', and I would humbly support your view on that. So far you and GIL seem to best understand how to craft meaningful and provocative story beats and scenes. In short, I think you two know what you're doing and also second-guessing oneself is natural and common. Seems most in this thread agree.



Ehhhhh, I think you're missing something vital in that dynamic. Mina had been dating Ian for a long while, while sexually Edwin is new. She had most likely grown comfortable with Ian during that time. I have noticed, particularly if one person is looking for more than just a hookup/netflix and chill( or whatever kids call it these days), it isn't terribly uncommon to just engage in a little foreplay. Whether this is from an idea of someone "wanting to take things slowly" or from an idea of "leave them wanting more," who can say? Hell, sometimes even when reconnecting with an old lover, you enjoy the ride and stretch it out. Teasing someone is fun. Feeling desired is also fun. There are a lot of reasons you won't immediately knock boots with someone, no matter your sexual experience. So I at least found the scene made sense in that regard. Maybe I'm the only one. Maybe not.

Your logic is sound and reasonable , apart from wheather its the dev's intention to leave us hanging

 

[MartinKrpan]

I like this game because of the choices that are available. The more, the merrier just because this makes it more personal to me. And by that I don't mean faster/slower/change angle and cum. But actual choices that have or will have consequences.

 

[Kada_buwan]

Just in case. I got a feeling this will update soon....

 

[Takkatakka]

View attachment 2437345
Just in case. I got a feeling this will update soon....

Depends on what you mean with "soon". The soonest seems to be an update at around the beginning of April, most likely it will take until June or July.

 

[Gavin Ray]

To chime in another opinion about release frequency and story path complexity... I never even considered the fact that several years of development can have a detrimental effect on not only the players patience to hang around/keep supporting the project, but also the developers patience with the project itself. I'm not a huge creative myself, being more into the technical side of things, but I can appreciate the fact that working on a single project for 3+ years can be very mentally taxing, creatively. (Even though both Gil and TD remain confident in their attitude towards satisfactorily finishing the project)

While I appreciate the varied path options within PC, from an MC choice perspective, I also understand that each branch adds complexity (and thus time) to the overall development process. I agree with the sentiment that the detailed control over the destiny of the MC is one of the aspects that makes PC so amazing as a VN. However, I also don't replay the entire game each time a new update drops, nor do I have a half-dozen different save files on different paths/choices. This is of course a personal opinion, but I don't tend to grade VNs on their replayability. This might be because most A-tier VNs haven't yet "finished", narratively. I tend to play my MCs with an singular sequential strategy, and not stray from that linear strategy until I reach the end of the story (at which point I might replay the entire game using a different strategy). This style of consuming content tends to keep my MC perspective more focused and organized in how I experience the narrative and character arcs, instead of having all the unique pathways forming a jumbled mess in my head. eg. was I fucking this chick in this save? or was that my other save? do I have a save for that? etc. You'd almost need a damn spreadsheet to keep it all straight, as a player.

Im sure that I will be called lazy for this, but sometimes it can be a bit demoralizing as a player to read posts by others, in which they outline all the different saves they maintain and how each was progressed following every update. Naturally, I don't fault these players for this type of play style, but I also believe that a player shouldn't feel penalized in their experience because they chose to focus on one character over another, and not constantly maintain several different playstyle arcs. Perhaps this is just the inherent nature of the VN medium though... I think my own experiential view on VNs is more comparable to the idea that they should be customizable movies, rather than explicit video games (with 5 different unique paths/endings). I dunno, maybe this is what people love so much about VNs over more traditional forms of media...

All that being said, if given the choice between 1) ultra complex branching pathways and granular control over every MC decision OR 2) 3+ releases per year with less MC decision points (but still containing that guaranteed quality that TD and Gil exemplify )...I'm going to pick the higher release frequency, every time.

All thanks and credit to TD and Gil! Looking forward to Ch4Up2!

 

[TD1900]

Im sure that I will be called lazy for this, but sometimes it can be a bit demoralizing as a player to read posts by others, in which they outline all the different saves they maintain and how each was progressed following every update. Naturally, I don't fault these players for this type of play style, but I also believe that a player shouldn't feel penalized in their experience because they chose to focus on one character over another, and not constantly maintain several different playstyle arcs. Perhaps this is just the inherent nature of the VN medium though... I think my own experiential view on VNs is more comparable to the idea that they should be customizable movies, rather than explicit video games (with 5 different unique paths/endings). I dunno, maybe this is what people love so much about VNs over more traditional forms of media...

Yeah, that's a whole other question of design that the update-by-update model makes turns into a consideration. If you have a Hana update, people who don't like Hana are fucked. Ideally updates would be designed in a way that people get a little bit of everything, but doing that meaningfully is easier said than done, although some of that issue is alleviated thanks to the club stuff being omni-present.

However, with the more branch-focused updates, I do worry about "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" syndrome that might impact player's satisfaction with an individual update. Big picture, none of that worries in the long run when the game is complete, but there are unique considerations to keeping players interested in a game like you would an episodic TV show.