VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[satirious]

This is greatly misinterpreting the story at multiple points...

You're right about Chuck, I haven't played the most recent one but the character is what I'm going to respond to:

Chuck thinks about what's best for Edwin. Making connections in the club, pushing those forward, growing from the experience. Some of that is going to be with August and Kathleen. Who Chuck has known for a long time. As it stands, he believes their connections will benefit the budding doctor to be in Edwin. Remember his personal philosophy: hedonism to your personal benefit which has influence with Ian and even Edwin to an extent.

Kathleen knows about Edwin's past. Even called his mother. And she resonates with the sadistic side of him. Remember her tale. The place is for him to express himself. In short, Kathleen and Chuck are tempering Edwin to fall into their image with their influence. And no, he wasn't gonna get physical unless YOU got physical and he needed to. That's what the Strongman route is about in that Edwin does have strength and power on his side but uses it to protect Mina in the club scene or have that as a plus in certain scenes. But that's not the only thing of the character by no means.

People are not looking at this club issue properly. You're most likely not going to destroy the club or burn it down. You're possibly deciding who is ultimately in control and what happens as a result. Folks, the Bunny Ranch in Vegas still exists even if Hugh Hefner was funding it and he's long gone. Go to Vegas and the owner might change and it changes the personnel and staff and the shape of the place. So the place would change based on the choices you've made from how Kathleen would run it as the Queen of the place versus August versus Chuck... Or Hana...

And even then, there's Edwin. A result based on the decisions you did to come to that end.

All of which is fine if Edwin is the nerdy little wall flower that can be molded and groomed into their perfect little future monster like they want. Like Edwin is for the vast majority of TD's story. Never have contradicted any of that. And it's clear as day that's how it will proceed for the remaining time. That's why Victoria's reveal isn't that big of a deal outside cliffhanger bait.

It's his back story, that Chuck and Kathleen are obviously aware of, which makes it not real smart for them to even start him down that road. That is the part that keeps getting jumped over and ignored. It's Chekov's gun. TD's story is pretty fucking tight on plot lines. So, is Edwin's past just flavor text for no good reason? If it's not just filler, then Chuck and Kathleen took a volatile substance and decided to play catch with it.

 

[Ottoeight]

What does Chuck treating a house girl as furniture have to do with making amends to someone he thinks of as almost family? Does he consider the house girl family? People can still be assholes to others but make amends to those they consider friends/family.

MoBy28: "Uncle Chuck, you are making amends to Edwin, aren't you?"

Uncle Chuck: "Making amends?!?! I have nothing to amend, son. My only regret is that I started 'having fun' only after I retired."

 

[Ungawa]

All of which is fine if Edwin is the nerdy little wall flower that can be molded and groomed into their perfect little future monster like they want. Like Edwin is for the vast majority of TD's story. Never have contradicted any of that. And it's clear as day that's how it will proceed for the remaining time. That's why Victoria's reveal isn't that big of a deal outside cliffhanger bait.

It's his back story, that Chuck and Kathleen are obviously aware of, which makes it not real smart for them to even start him down that road. That is the part that keeps getting jumped over and ignored. It's Chekov's gun. TD's story is pretty fucking tight on plot lines. So, is Edwin's past just flavor text for no good reason? If it's not just filler, then Chuck and Kathleen took a volatile substance and decided to play catch with it.

Sure, they decided that they can control the chaos in the club. Let's take that for a reason as to why:

Chuck, through personal family ties, thinks that the boy can be molded in his own image. Been that way since the get-go. You know him as Uncle Chuck, it's a big thing that you knew him for the years past and he wants you growing as a hedonistic perv just like him. That's his idea. You see how it works for Ian.

For Kathleen, she's more leery but eventually comes around to you even with her misgivings. You decide if that's something you wanna see or not. And the Edwin of that image reflects on it. From the personal sadism that leads to boning her to trying to bring out that sadistic side and opening up to it. Personal relationships are formed, forged, and tempered based on the actions you take Edwin into.

That kind of gets us back into this:

As for the now versus future problem. It became a now issue and not a tomorrow issue the second Kathleen dialed Victoria's number that first time. That is, if Edwin actually gives two shits about his mother. So, VanD's plan to one day take down the club is fine if you don't care that Chuck, Kathleen, August, Warren, Jacob etc. will target Victoria with violence if they get a whiff that Edwin plans to help VanD do what he is doing.

Emphasis is mine. The point of my criticism, and the point I need to stress is that the game gives us multiple ways to solve a problem which make sense for the characters involved. Different avenues and results and none are going to be easy and all have consequences to their actions. That's more or less the point I'm saying here. All of these characters have more than one facet to them and while we think one way is going to make sense, there's still other ways it may be resolved. So it may be a bit early to think that one plan will succeed or fail when we don't have enough info to consider what other possibilities may await us.

 

[Ottoeight]

I'd have to disagree seeing as how any of the Carnations can willingly bow out of the competition at any time.

Anybody can do anything, BUT they have to face the consequences.

Now imagine the consequences on Felicia, Rosalind or Veronica if they bow out of the competion. And imagine the consequences on Edwin.

First of all, it won't happen because the story would end before the 4th exhibition night.

 

[Turret]

I keep seeing this repeated idea that the club could be run by Ian, Hana and Edwin. Ian couldn't run shit without bankrupting it from abusing his own product. Hana has a year as a reluctant bartender and one week of maybe kinda sorta giving two shits about how the place operates. As you said, Edwin hopes to be heading to Med School.

Which of these three "I'd rather be anywhere else" 20 somethings are suddenly going to know how to manage a business and keep the current clientele in check while doing so?

Pardon me, but you overlook a few points. A) It seems that the current leaders want to groom the three to be their successors in a couple years. So the Club will go on when they retire. That is one possible route, if you stick with the current bosses.
B) If you side with Abel and Sophia the leadership change will come A LOT sooner, but they have a whole medical Empire behind them. It certainly would be unproblematic for Abel and Sophia to bring some managers in who would stem most of the work until e.g. Hana is ready. Also Dalia is certainly not clueless how to run the Club and can help. Last but not least we know that August´s credo is always making the smart choice. He is the only one of the current leadership who could survive a hostile takeover of the Club in kind of influential position, at least temporarily until Hana is ready.

 

[satirious]

Sure, they decided that they can control the chaos in the club. Let's take that for a reason as to why:

Chuck, through personal family ties, thinks that the boy can be molded in his own image. Been that way since the get-go. You know him as Uncle Chuck, it's a big thing that you knew him for the years past and he wants you growing as a hedonistic perv just like him. That's his idea. You see how it works for Ian.

For Kathleen, she's more leery but eventually comes around to you even with her misgivings. You decide if that's something you wanna see or not. And the Edwin of that image reflects on it. From the personal sadism that leads to boning her to trying to bring out that sadistic side and opening up to it. Personal relationships are formed, forged, and tempered based on the actions you take Edwin into.

That kind of gets us back into this:



Emphasis is mine. The point of my criticism, and the point I need to stress is that the game gives us multiple ways to solve a problem which make sense for the characters involved. Different avenues and results and none are going to be easy and all have consequences to their actions. That's more or less the point I'm saying here. All of these characters have more than one facet to them and while we think one way is going to make sense, there's still other ways it may be resolved. So it may be a bit early to think that one plan will succeed or fail when we don't have enough info to consider what other possibilities may await us.

All true enough and Edwin isn't pursuing any of them when Kathleen has made it clear she's willing to target his mother (the one he supposedly cares about) if he isn't a good little boy. His most extreme reaction thus far is "fuck you". Then he tucks tail and waddles away. Just as he'll do with whatever information he learns about Victoria/Chuck.

In even the most generous to Chuck scenario possible, Edwin should have a major axe to grind if Victoria means anything to him and his personal history is as written.

Chuck knows Kath and her methods. He certainly has to at least entertain that idea she will use Vic as leverage. He has to be smart enough to at least consider that it could result in Victoria making noise to Edwin and/or Ian. The same Victoria he has some negative history with, is the object of his dear nephews affections and the mother of that same nephews best friend and protector.

That's a convenient win for all that to be on the table with Edwin's known history and there be zero loss on their part. So is Chuck careless and stupid or too arrogant and heartless to care if it blows up in his face?

 

[fred9320]

Latest Pale Carnations update [Ch4.Up5] is out now! Happy Fucking New Year ladies and gents!

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my dreams

 

[satirious]

Pardon me, but you overlook a few points. A) It seems that the current leaders want to groom the three to be their successors in a couple years. So the Club will go on when they retire. That is one possible route, if you stick with the current bosses.
B) If you side with Abel and Sophia the leadership change will come A LOT sooner, but they have a whole medical Empire behind them. It certainly would be unproblematic for Abel and Sophia to bring some managers in who would stem most of the work until e.g. Hana is ready. Also Dalia is certainly not clueless how to run the Club and can help. Last but not least we know that August´s credo is always making the smart choice. He is the only one of the current leadership who could survive a hostile takeover of the Club in kind of influential position, at least temporarily until Hana is ready.

The grooming them to be leaders part isn't actually part of the story.

August forced Hana in to the club to build bridges with his daughter. He's just now got her to even consider taking over for him in the future. Two weeks at best, while she still spends much of her time doing other shit (like her band and possible fucking Edwin) is a very short training period. So that is at least one of them.

Ian isn't being groomed as a future boss. Chuck is letting him run wild and sow his oats. Ian's on any path still more interested in playing Prince than learning how to rule.

Edwin is supposed to head off to Med school



Sure Dalia knows how to work the girls. That's great if the club turns into just a whore house and you get rid of all of the "extras" the p[lace offers.

 

[Ungawa]

All true enough and Edwin isn't pursuing any of them when Kathleen has made it clear she's willing to target his mother (the one he supposedly cares about) if he isn't a good little boy. His most extreme reaction thus far is "fuck you". Then he tucks tail and waddles away. Just as he'll do with whatever information he learns about Victoria/Chuck.

He's in no position to question Kathleen, especially as he finds out more about Darius and how he disappeared. The point of a noir setting is that there is danger in a misstep and others have done it so you go into a dangerous setting with your wits about you.

In even the most generous to Chuck scenario possible, Edwin should have a major axe to grind if Victoria means anything to him and his personal history is as written.

Okay, and you can go to punch him in the face but that's not what you're doing here. You gotta play the cards you're dealt and sometimes you gotta fold when you get a bad hand.

Chuck knows Kath and her methods. He certainly has to at least entertain that idea she will use Vic as leverage. He has to be smart enough to at least consider that it could result in Victoria making noise to Edwin and/or Ian. The same Victoria he has some negative history with, is the object of his dear nephews affections and the mother of that same nephews best friend and protector.

And vice versa. Kath knows Chuck and what he's capable of in a sordid cathouse. No matter how you slice it, everyone's in the darkness here.

That's a convenient win for all that to be on the table with Edwin's known history and there be zero loss on their part. So is Chuck careless and stupid or too arrogant and heartless to care if it blows up in his face?

If anything, you can see that Chuck is far from careless or stupid. He has the things he does well as well as strengths and weaknesses of character. Ruthless, cunning, and deep down a monster.

The character has a lot going on and perhaps there's a blind spot or two. But I don't think that diminishes what they can do should missteps be taken in the future.

 

[fred9320]

Pejoratively yes, because she's disgusted and/or annoyed by her but I wouldn't say that she used that word so that Vicky would do what she wanted. That's what blackmail was for.

Anyway, saying that she's doing it for herself/for appearances is overinterpretation. I would argue that wanting her son to be more responsible and successful is a sign of more caring about him than Victoria's hedonistic approach where she says "let him have fun while he's young". That's easy for her to say when she has a successful and intelligent son who's to become a doctor while Grace's son wastes his time on whores/sluts with some photography on top. What mother (who isn't a whore) would like her son to be a leech/parasite that thinks about sex only?

If she really was the person you claim she is, she would have never allowed Ian to go to a public school (imagine what other snobs would say when they would learn Grace's son wouldn't get best education available) or for Ian to be friends with Edwin or for Edwin to come with them on vacations or for letting Victoria a whore to come to Thanksgiving even though she clearly despised her (the answer here is obvious, Ian asked her to invite Victoria so she did because she loves his son). Nothing adds up here unless we assume that she loves her son (she even says so and I see no reason to doubt that considering the above).

Grace had plenty of chances to tell Victoria what she thought about her but she didn't until she felt she had no choice. She was amicable the whole time when talking to her except for that one outburst (but she quickly recovered herself and became calm again) which I interpret as a sign of love (maybe warped but definitely love, she's clearly jealous of Victoria).

As for August, again it's overinterpretation. From where I stand it seems to me that August wants a successor and since he doesn't have the alternative (AFAWK) he went with Hana. He had appeared only recently ignoring her daughter most of her life. I'm not saying he's not genuinely pursuing her affection (he obviously is and he cares about her) but that "entire game" that you mentioned is what...? A year + 3 weeks (at best since we don't know when his pursuit started)? Meanwhile Grace cared for her son his entire life, that it wasn't what Ian wanted is irrelevant.

Not to mention that if letting your daughter work in the brothel dressed up like this is an affection of love then I have bad news for Hana:

You must be registered to see the links

And it was August's idea...

P.S.
BTW, I wonder what fluids of Hana did August use to test for DNA to see whether Hana is his (I refuse to believe that he used her hair) :]. Because let's be honest, knowing the industry Hana's mother was in I'm sure he wouldn't go by Hana's mother word only.

the best girl hannnaaa

 

[satirious]

He's in no position to question Kathleen, especially as he finds out more about Darius and how he disappeared. The point of a noir setting is that there is danger in a misstep and others have done it so you go into a dangerous setting with your wits about you.



Okay, and you can go to punch him in the face but that's not what you're doing here. You gotta play the cards you're dealt and sometimes you gotta fold when you get a bad hand.



And vice versa. Kath knows Chuck and what he's capable of in a sordid cathouse. No matter how you slice it, everyone's in the darkness here.



If anything, you can see that Chuck is far from careless or stupid. He has the things he does well as well as strengths and weaknesses of character. Ruthless, cunning, and deep down a monster.

The character has a lot going on and perhaps there's a blind spot or two. But I don't think that diminishes what they can do should missteps be taken in the future.

Because the only way to deal with Chuck or Kathleen is punch them in the nose. Exactly the response expected if Edwin were a knuckle dragging meathead. Only he isn't that at all. He's supposedly smart enough to know you don't kick a tiger if you aren't equipped to put it down. Just as Chuck is supposed to be. Yet, here we are.

Clearly the establishing facts of Edwin were flavor text if he's no threat and Chuck was never in the least bit worried about how any of this scenario could color his relationship with Ian or Edwin.

 

[Ungawa]

Because the only way to deal with Chuck or Kathleen is punch them in the nose. Exactly the response expected if Edwin were a knuckle dragging meathead. Only he isn't that at all. He's supposedly smart enough to know you don't kick a tiger if you aren't equipped to put it down. Just as Chuck is supposed to be. Yet, here we are.

Clearly the establishing facts of Edwin were flavor text if he's no threat and Chuck was never in the least bit worried about how any of this scenario could color his relationship with Ian or Edwin.

I mean, if that's how Edwin should do it in your story, then I'm not going to stop you.

My point is merely that other players will decide that for themselves and how they deal with the situation as they see fit in their own games. It won't break the character to have different ways people do just like they align with people differently in the game.

 

[fred9320]

Yeah, that was one of my favourite lines. Same goes for this one:

kil "...coming in! Hope no one's decent!"
kil "--oh, it's just you two."
hana "You stole the words right out of my mouth."

Spoiler: image from newest update

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So? We're getting Veronica x Mina scenes or Felicia x Mina (we could just observe for the most part of the threesome if we wanted to), we're seeing Victoria getting railed, Sophia, Felicia with her husband (1 image, but still...), etc. Point is people besides Edwin have sex all the time and we're made aware of that (even if off-screen, like it was with Mina x Ian case).

Besides, in this very update Hana advises Mina to fuck Ian so that will happen for sure:

Spoiler

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In my eyes they mix perfectly. If I didn't know any better I would think that their conversations are lover's quarrels (not your typical lovers but lovers nonetheless and as they say: the quarrel of lovers is the renewal of love). And IMO four weeks is enough for Hana to change her mind about Ian now that she got to know him better.

Previously she only saw him as the rich pervert who treats women like whores (so whores like whores) which she didn't like. Now not only she saw a different side of him but she also changed after becoming a co-owner. Her perspective changed a lot and things that would be out of the question 3 weeks ago now she considers herself.

Besides, she's known him for at least a year and she's seen him at his worst, Edwin on the other hand came around only 3 weeks ago. I don't see how relationship with him is any more probable than with Ian when she barely knows Edwin and yet she's dating him (or is fuckbuddies with him).

Anyway, I'm not saying it will happen but that I can see it happening. I think the way Mina and Ian interact with each other leaves a room for interpretation and TD does it deliberately because their every conversation looks like this when they're face to face but when Ian isn't present Hana can say something nice about him and when Hana isn't present Ian can say something nice about Hana.

AMD drivers might be the problem (I assume you do have an AMD card?).

hanna is too hot

 

[slobber]

satirious I think you're extrapolating on small details a little bit enthusiastically. MC's history of 'violence' sounds like a tough single-parent childhood that might have still been grieving over loss (his father whom he loved dearly) and a developing moral compass (like any child). To me, the whole point of putting in that past was for 2 reasons.
1) to show how he matured when he saw the consequences of his actions (how it impacted Vicky)
2) to show how valuable Vicky is to MC

MC doesn't strike me as a psychopath. Yes there's supposed to be hints he has sadistic tendencies on the eroticism level but he's not going to be your next guy shooting up a school since he has Vicky as his anchor and all the values she instilled in his growing up (behind the scenes).

MC is meant to be pretty 'normal' in that 'he does not want to dirty his hands with murder' and I believe he does become unsettled when he learns about Warren's past. Not to mention, I think Vicky's safety is too important to MC. He'd probably do almost anything to keep her safe. Getting in the hitlist for a swarm of the city's (and country's, in some ways) most powerful men would do the opposite of keeping her safe.

 

[Turret]

The grooming them to be leaders part isn't actually part of the story.

August forced Hana in to the club to build bridges with his daughter. He's just now got her to even consider taking over for him in the future. Two weeks at best, while she still spends much of her time doing other shit (like her band and possible fucking Edwin) is a very short training period. So that is at least one of them.
Ian isn't being groomed as a future boss. Chuck is letting him run wild and sow his oats. Ian's on any path still more interested in playing Prince than learning how to rule.
Edwin is supposed to head off to Med school
Sure Dalia knows how to work the girls. That's great if the club turns into just a whore house and you get rid of all of the "extras" the p[lace offers.

As I wrote, the current bosses want them as successors in a couple years when they retire (there are quite a number of hints throughout th game into this direction), if you keep some modicum of connection and not go full adversary. Enough time to get knowledgable. That Hana for instance has currently just two weeks experience is simply not important.
In one scenario, the 3 should be ready in a couple years(!) when the old bosses retire. In the other scenario helping Abel and Sophia with a hostile takeover, it is no problem bringing in managers either fulltime or until Hana and Co. are ready.

 

[satirious]

satirious I think you're extrapolating on small details a little bit enthusiastically. MC's history of 'violence' sounds like a tough single-parent childhood that might have still been grieving over loss (his father whom he loved dearly) and a developing moral compass (like any child). To me, the whole point of putting in that past was for 2 reasons.
1) to show how he matured when he saw the consequences of his actions (how it impacted Vicky)
2) to show how valuable Vicky is to MC

MC doesn't strike me as a psychopath. Yes there's supposed to be hints he has sadistic tendencies on the eroticism level but he's not going to be your next guy shooting up a school since he has Vicky as his anchor and all the values she instilled in his growing up (behind the scenes).

MC is meant to be pretty 'normal' in that 'he does not want to dirty his hands with murder' and I believe he does become unsettled when he learns about Warren's past. Not to mention, I think Vicky's safety is too important to MC. He'd probably do almost anything to keep her safe. Getting in the hitlist for a swarm of the city's (and country's, in some ways) most powerful men would do the opposite of keeping her safe.

And you're throwing around psychopath like it equals violence. It doesn't.

Doing what needs to be done to protect someone you actually care about doesn't make you a psychopath. It certainly helps people sleep better at night to dehumanize others that way and rationalize their own inaction. Either he cares about Victoria's well being or he doesn't. You aren't going to stop Kathleen, Chuck, August or any of their henchmen from harming her with a strongly worded letter to HR.

THAT is the point. He isn't going to do shit about anything precisely because he doesn't care enough about her or anyone else. His history demonstrates he isn't a coward. So, his inaction is "don't care" or his back story is fluff. That's been my point all along. Not that he should shoot up a school. He either directly deals with those responsible in what ever means necessary or he doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything outside his free ride to Med School.

 

[slobber]

satirious Why do you think the club execs will harm Vicky? There is no reasonable cause for them to harm Vicky and it's pretty reasonable for Vicky to be in the 'safe-list' unless someone wishes to step on Chuck's toes. Your mention of how MC is powerless to stop the execs is also exactly the reason why he needs to stay in their good graces.

I mean... half his internal monologue about Vicky is pretty much how much he cares about her. Whether he made a "sound" decision for her future is questionable but that's relatively realistic given the circumstances. Med school ain't cheap in the states to my knowledge.

Please remember: The MC is not invincible. The MC is not a genius. The MC is not omnipotent. The MC is not Rambo. The MC is just a young man with mommy issues who possibly made an unwise decision to procure a good future for himself and his mother (you might want to play the game from the start again to notice MC actually turned down the offer at the start)

 

[Ungawa]

That's kind of it...

You're putting the story in a binary. Is or is not. Do or don't. That's not the story being told. You decide what kind of person Edwin IS.

Whether he sides with Chuck, Kathleen or whomever, who he fancies, etc.

And you live out the consequences of all your actions. You go through the story and events. That shapes Edwin's journey in this story. Nothing more or less.

 

[maped]

https://f95zone.to/threads/universal-gallery-unlocker-2024-01-24-zlzk.136812/

---

Or the attached script I just wrote. Place under game folder.

dont work (

 

[slobber]

I mean, I don't think we're griping over the proper details TBH. I'm still jelly over MC being able to interview Elias coherently while Felicia was giving him the show. Did you see his vocab? That's insane levels of multi-tasking IMO. Broke my immersion