VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[sunaboz]

Great post as always ename144 , you single-handedly gave us material to discuss for weeks :]. I'll reply to some small portion of it since it would take way too much time to address everything.

I'll start with the thing that somehow only you pointed out and that is - Rosalind scamming old people. I figured that no one besides me would care and was waiting for you to mention it. In my eyes people like Rosalind are human trash and that "character development" was a mistake. Before that revelation I really liked Rosalind (since you don't like her that didn't change much in your case) but now she's at the bottom of carnation's hierarchy and I want her to lose.

That decision by TD has made things much less interesting for me because as of now I'll be rooting for Felicia only (and before this update I wanted Rosalind to win despite being Felicia fan). At least she's ashamed of it and stopped doing it but the bitter taste remains.

(...)
Right off the bat, the whole premise is very weird to me. Why would the MC invite the Carnations to the concert? I know he's committed to uniting them, but this seems like a strange way to do it, and he clearly has no gameplan when they arrive. Plus, as Felicia notes, it's very last minute. More importantly, the MC knows Mina will be there. The implications of that were blindingly obvious to me, but apparently the MC somehow missed them because he doesn't even bother to coordinate a cover story with Hana, much less worry about who else might show up. The end result is that the event feels decidedly artificial even before it starts. (...)

IMO this could be strange only in the Mina-girlfriend route. Otherwise I don't see why would a healthy young man not want to be surrounded by 10/10 beauties with tits twice as big as Grace's. If that would make things slightly awkward then who cares, he knows Mina for 3 weeks only. Besides, I can see how his sadistic side might enjoy seeing how the fire that he started spreads :]. As for this being last minute... If they wouldn't come then no harm done.

Personally I found this very probable, especially since everyone was so busy earlier that they didn't have time to do the usual gathering of all carnations and this was the perfect (or should I say: last) opportunity to do it. So yeah, he didn't have the plan, so what? I see nothing wrong with TD's decision here.

(...)
As I implied above, I think this scene probably should have been gated by Mina seducing Veronica; Mina's actions seem a little too bold without that experience under her belt (...)

I strongly disagree, how is Mina seducing Veronica much different from Mina seducing Hana? Why that second scenario should be gated when for all we know Hana is more hot in Mina's eyes? You're a Veronica fan so I can understand why you would think that but your idea IMO is much worse than what TD did.

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And judging by the above, if anything Hana would be second on her women-to-do-list since they were more intimate than her with Veronica (unless there was some shower action in the gym that we didn't see).

 

[Takkatakka]

Man, the game has never looked better; you can tell where most of the time is spent on the development, as the girls actually look like they've been motion captured with how expressive their faces are, and the background details actually make the world look lived in, like characters going about their business in the background, or just cars passing by when characters are by or on a road. Even when you skip through a scene, it's like you're fast forwarding a movie rather than rapidly flipping through a bunch of static images. This really is one of the best looking games out there and it doesn't get enough credit in that area I feel like.

I pretty much wrote the same thing just the other day. It actually is a good idea to skip through the scenes after you read them completely at least once. The amount of fluid movement GIL3D can convey with a few static render is like...well...I don't know any other VN that does it this well.

Or all the little subtle (and less subtle) expressions that just add so much story and convey so much information on their own, like this one for example:

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He also makes some of the best "WTF" faces:

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[TD1900]

I strongly disagree, how is Mina seducing Veronica much different from Mina seducing Hana?

I don't want to put words into ename's mouth, but I do think it's a perception of nuance. Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold.

That distinction was in part intentional, but I was worried about how it would be read. There's a lot of Mina only scenes in this update, and without the crutch of a running narration, I can see how the latter might feel incongruent or out of character. So I can understand the thinking that flirting with Veronica could bridge those two states like a set of sapphic training wheels, but it's a question of what's to come in the future.

This might seem silly... but I was hoping playing the Veronica + Mina route would inform / give insight to the Hana + Mina path.

 

[ename144]

Does anyone know how to get the last Misc Scene where it says to Ignore everyone? i literally ignore everyone and i just get the Mina Scene ive even tried replaying the game from my Save before i started the Chapter does anyone know what Values I have to change to get the scene?

In order to eventually flirt with the bartender, I believe the MC needs to ignore Ian when he's sulking on his own. You can do this by either choosing not to go to him, or by not getting him to introspect in the first place. You also must not be officially dating Hana. If you meet those requirements you should get the option to hang out with Eve after the MC decides not to bro it up with Ian and Jacob.

Number two - What's the name of the BGM playing in the pork chops cooking scene? I could swear I heard it before, like, decades ago, but that's just me being senile, right?

If you open the Memories screen during a scene and click on the "Music" button, it will actually highlight which song is playing. According to the game, the song is "Mourning Dove" by Zachariah Hickman.

Sorry if im late to the party, but i need to ask: are there any advantages to making Hana your GF?

Sort of, but probably not the ones you're looking for. GF Hana allows the MC to avoid certain options on the grounds that he has a girlfriend. He can, for example, attend the art expo without having to fuck Felicia at the end. This is a rather niche reward to put it mildly, but it does provide some unique content.

It's likely the path will eventually get a unique scene or two with Hana that won't be available if you keep things casual, but for now it's mostly about roleplay options.

- Nicolette is "on loan" as much as Andrea (from Otto, August's fellow gangster);

Nico says she's "under new management;" that sounds a little more direct than merely being "on loan."

Regardless, my point is that the girls might have more or less freedom at the Club based on the specific terms of their loan. We know Nico is a 'special interest,' and that is apparently a real ordeal. It would stand to reason a girl could be a sort of 'anti-special interest' and have a relatively easier time of it in the Club. But this is just speculation on my part.

Hey, we also learned that Edwin is literally second guy ever Rose has had sex with in her life, which is highly unexpected but potentially very pleasing development to some players.

Point of order! That's only true if the MC has sex with Rose. If you turn down her deal and let Ian take your place in the second Exhibition, then Ian would get the number two slot. If the MC then reversed course and slept with Rose after her dinner in this update, he'd only be number three.

I'm glad we were able to iron out this crucial detail!

I think he did, but given this new bit of information it's an open question if he was speaking from actual experience, or if it was just casual misogynistic shit based on nothing but "well she's frumpy single mom so she's probably boring in bed too". Plus, if Ian fucked Rose before she shows up at the club to meet Edwin then her apprehension about that event, something she mentions during the dinner talk, would be a bit off.

It's certainly suggested that Ian did something to take advantage of Rose prior to her meeting the MC since he explicitly refutes the idea that he was "kind" to her. But that evidently stopped short of full intercourse. That doesn't seem implausible given that an MC who initially "takes advantage of Rose" will settle for stripping, groping and face fucking her.

I'll start with the thing that somehow only you pointed out and that is - Rosalind scamming old people. I figured that no one besides me would care and was waiting for you to mention it. In my eyes people like Rosalind are human trash and that "character development" was a mistake. Before that revelation I really liked Rosalind (since you don't like her that didn't change much in your case) but now she's at the bottom of carnation's hierarchy and I want her to lose.

That decision by TD has made things much less interesting for me because as of now I'll be rooting for Felicia only (and before this update I wanted Rosalind to win despite being Felicia fan). At least she's ashamed of it and stopped doing it but the bitter taste remains.

That's a valid point, this does erode Roslaind's "moral superiority" over the other Carnations a little bit. That could have been an interesting avenue to explore.

IMO this could be strange only in the Mina-girlfriend route. Otherwise I don't see why would a healthy young man not want to be surrounded by 10/10 beauties with tits twice as big as Grace's. If that would make things slightly awkward then who cares, he knows Mina for 3 weeks only. Besides, I can see how his sadistic side might enjoy seeing how the fire that he started spreads :]. As for this being last minute... If they wouldn't come then no harm done.

Eh, there's more to life than just being surrounded by eye candy. More importantly, the MC is the one insisting the Carnations bond over their own objections. Dragging them to a concert with no further game plan seems like a bad way to go about that. Mina being there just makes it worse, since she's an extra ball he'll need to juggle. Even if he doesn't really care about Mina, he's the one responsible if she learns about the Club and reacts badly.

I strongly disagree, how is Mina seducing Veronica much different from Mina seducing Hana? Why that second scenario should be gated when for all we know Hana is more hot in Mina's eyes? You're a Veronica fan so I can understand why you would think that but your idea IMO is much worse than what TD did.

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And judging by the above, if anything Hana would be second on her women-to-do-list since they were more intimate than her with Veronica (unless there was some shower action in the gym that we didn't see).

To me the key difference is that Hana is the one instigating the action on the MC's birthday, whereas Mina is not only instigating the action on her own this time, she's taking it to whole other level. Hana was just goofing around, whereas Mina is flat out trying to sleep with Hana.

I'm definitely not saying Mina wouldn't be interested in Hana. She absolutely would, especially if you triggered that scene in the NHIE game. But as we know, just because Mina has fantasies that doesn't mean she's ready to act on them all on her own. I just feel like she needed some more experience (or a push from someone else) before she was ready to take this particular plunge.

And I doubt my interest in Veronica is influencing my opinion here since I have no desire to share her with Mina.

 

[danieldam]

First off why the fuck is the veronica and mina scenes different routes for hana ? it makes no sense at all to me. Then i gotta say after replaying all the routes for solo events with some i wish that we would actually feel closer than if we just did a manwhore route. My mc who always picked veronica shouldn't be the same level as manwhore mc whos nice to her. Also mad that the mina and hana situation teased was just a kiss . Besides these complaints writing is still the best in its genre imo and models are hot af.World building is getting even better. Also wish we actually could have the mc fall in love with kathleen in the route

 

[Garen]

Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold.

I figured you were going for that when their kiss had Mina's theme playing. Almost obnoxiously when I was expecting something more demure and seductive.

I know some guys view Mina and Hana separately from the carnations but honestly I think they're all built of the same stock. Hana has been strikingly accepting of the darker side of the Club in everything she's been exposed to and Mina has always had a crazy streak to her which was simply never in the limelight because of her genuinely bubbly personality.

I knew she was off her rocker right from this scene. It was unnerving.

 

[IndigoHawk]

Great update! I played through once picking whatever I wanted, then checked with a mod to see what other branches there are. I feel like I glimpsed madness at the rock concert. There are so many branches! I worry about the sanity of the developers.

I like how many small different scenes there are even though it's getting really tough to have a canon playthrough. As always I enjoy how much character expressions change during a scene, even a small conversation. It's a good idea to CTRL through old scenes to get a sense of how much variation there is. If there's a character in the background and they are listening in, their expression will change. It's crazy. I think the funniest option was Rosalind dancing up on the bar in her sweater after checking after the bouncer wouldn't let her in and seeing how people respond. (But seriously no bouncer is turning her away haha). Maybe my canonical playthrough is the multiverse one where I'm in multiple states at the same time.

Perhaps the only real complaint I had about the rock concert is that I felt it should have more content on the Hana path, simply because it was her concert. But there is a lot of content here and it's definitely worth checking out. We learn more about side characters (the bartender, the Club girls, etc) but only if we take those routes. That's kind of why it's a shame that so many paths are exclusive. The players know a lot more about these characters than MC does in any playthrough, and some players know a lot more than others depending on how many saves they have and whether they cheat.

Ian deserves more credit. I feel this update again shows his good side. He saved the Carnation Social Hour by bringing in some weed and it created a funny smoky scene (visually it looked great!) with everyone lying to Mina while spilling details. Oh and she had a callback to her earlier run in with the police. She had another good moment earlier when she questions if MC is more popular than she is since he knows so many people, haha. Anyway, even though Ian saved party, he still had to leave it. Sure Ian deserves to be in the doghouse for what he did to Mina but I feel like that's starting to be old history because Mina is doing more or less fine now.

I understand from a porn game design perspective why Ian gets sidelined so much (brought in then booted out of scenes so MC can shine without another guy there) but it does feel a bit unnatural from the story perspective of Ian and MC being so close.

I think my biggest complaint about the update overall is that the MC needs to stop being a little bitch. So his mom calls up, and he immediately drops what he's doing and takes Ian to go check out what's going on. That's great.

Then he gets there. His mom's a mess. And what is his first thought? He's freaking out because his worlds are colliding and he's worried that his mom will fall off her pedestal and he (and Ian) will see his mom as a slut, like the women they're treating like dirt at the club. So he stops her from saying anything and puts her to bed and leaves. His focus seems mostly on how this is impacting him, not what's going on with his mom. He said some of the right things in his speech but dropped the ball. And he's hoping she'll forget in the morning? Pathetic.

Sure, just let her sleep it off. Or maybe stay with her, sleep on the couch. Reinforce that MC is there for her and isn't going to run off. Stop acting like there's some problem with his mom doing porn to keep a roof over his head. And even if she has some dark secret, like she enjoyed herself while making porn, stop acting like it matters. Who cares. Have some loyalty and respect for her. Maybe tell her thank you and that she's a great mom. Oh and also stop lying to her and being a patronizing asshole acting like his mom can't handle the truth but the MC is so much better than her when he's being used as a tool for laughs by the club. From what we've seen, his mom (and the Carnations) have more agency than the MC. He drifted along and got roped into this for no reason at all really whereas they made tough choices. MC is a privileged tourist.

The big choice at the end is whether MC is going to focus on the porn Victoria made and violate his image of her as a mother of if he's going to man up and delete it.

Seems like an easy choice although I feel the canonical path is that MC has zero respect for himself or his mom and keeps pursuing the videos. Anyway to be clear this isn't a complaint about the writing. I like that the MC is his own character and this is what he's been struggling with for years and that as the player I'm disgusted with how weak he is sometimes.

Also MC did that thing where he says "I know" instead of letting his mom talk, so we don't actually know what Victoria was upset about. But I do know that Grace has gone from "she's hot but out of respect for Ian MC wouldn't" to "Ian better tell Grace to shut her mouth before MC shuts it for her and deals with the consequences later".

As a bit of an aside, I am curious if it makes sense what Grace said. It doesn't seem like Victoria was refusing to help or that Victoria has some special leverage to make Ian comply. It felt like Grace went nuclear for no reason, more to drive drama than anything else. Looking at the scene again, maybe Grace is frustrated with Ian and lashed out when Victoria tried to keep the lie going, like Grace has bigger things on her plate than protecting Victoria's image so she's just going to lash out and call her a whore and demand she help rather than remain civil. So I think I'd like to see more of Grace's total lack of grace in dealing with situations and how that's making her life worse.

I think my last thought on that is that as the club starts to become a more personal threat to his real life, MC needs to reevaluate what his priorities are and why he's even doing this. His mom is crying and drinking herself to sleep. It's time to pull the plug. Wrap up the Carnation contest, sell the house, move. We've seen some of this problem growing earlier, like Kathleen invading his life. I'm hoping that this night with Victoria is enough to wake him up.

Aside from that, I was thinking about the domestic life scenes with Rosalind. I feel that the similar scenes with Veronica and Felicia had more emotional impact but those were tough acts to follow. I still feel it was pretty good, especially with Rosalind being so enthusiastic once she gets going, with her on the couch riding him. I also feel that Rosalind gets shortchanged a little because she's always been the character that's most blurred with MC's mom. So there's a certain amount of Rosalind is the mom character more than her own character. This is reinforced by having blurred memories of his mom's videos seeping through while having the date with Rosalind. So I feel it's kind of a conscious choice from the writing to blur Rosalind with Victoria, which just means she doesn't stand as much as a character on her own. So I think that's why I liked seeing more of Rose's traits, like she when she's high and overshares and when she's drunk and gets a bit wild.

Also Andrea is dumb but she's a good egg. Ha! I like how the music is used as a cue, like picking the more flirty options, the scene music changes.

Going back to Mina, I like this approach that she's becoming more active, like Veronica encouraging her to take charge (again shoutout to Veronica as such a good switch), and now Mina is the one approaching Hana. She's quickly becoming unleashed with a growing appetite. A couple updates ago Mina was feeling a bit blah once she was no longer the forbidden fruit and was game for anything. I wasn't sure where she could go from there that was interesting. Personally even her threesome with Felicia felt a bit meh, like it was visually great but wasn't that compelling for her character or story, and was the least meaningful of the options for Felicia's night. But now I'm feeling more on board. It's probably just because Mina was making out with a hesitant Hana but I don't see a problem with that. Also I like that Hana is a bit more hesitant and that it fits with her character based on what we know of her past.

Lastly sometimes I find that with these long running porn games that I kind of a reach a point where it's difficult to get reinvested in what's happening. There's just a moment where it's too much effort to get back into the story after the long wait between updates. Fortunately Pale Carnations is still going strong. Great job, and happy new year!

 

[Doggor]

I don't want to put words into ename's mouth, but I do think it's a perception of nuance. Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold.

That distinction was in part intentional, but I was worried about how it would be read. There's a lot of Mina only scenes in this update, and without the crutch of a running narration, I can see how the latter might feel incongruent or out of character. So I can understand the thinking that flirting with Veronica could bridge those two states like a set of sapphic training wheels, but it's a question of what's to come in the future.

This might seem silly... but I was hoping playing the Veronica + Mina route would inform / give insight to the Hana + Mina path.

I might actually pass out when the Mina x Hana stuff happens in future updates.
Genuinely looking forward to it like a giddy child waiting for christmas, despite knowing it's a way's away.

Just wanted to tell you to keep it up with the Lesbian scenes boss man, Good shit.

 

[sunaboz]

Seems strange to argue with the author himself, but...

(...)
Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold. (...)

That's because Veronica is imposing and so far the only intimate relations she's had with Mina was when she was touching her professionally during their exercises. We have no reason to believe that Veronica herself has taken the initiative and shown interest in Mina and if not for Edwin she wouldn't even know that Veronica might want to "play for the other team" (same goes for Veronica).

We also have this bit:
"Despite her egregious flirting at the gym, she likely wrote Mina off as an improbability. This was my chance to give the gals a little push."
Before that push Mina didn't read Veronica's touching as flirting since Veronica herself was very subtle about it and didn't even think there was a chance she could get further with her.

Meanwhile Hana and Mina had already had some steamy action and Hana herself admitted she had lesbian sex so Mina wanting a piece of action is much more probable in my eyes than Mina going after Veronica, who - for all she knows, Edwin knows worse than Mina does (since he barely goes to the gym). This is especially true if Mina had a threesome with Felicia.

(...)
Eh, there's more to life than just being surrounded by eye candy. More importantly, the MC is the one insisting the Carnations bond over their own objections. Dragging them to a concert with no further game plan seems like a bad way to go about that. (...)

There certainly is but for Edwin this might be the last chance to truly let loose before he'll have to study, study and study some more (medicine is no joke, besides physics probably the hardest thing to study). So I find it very likely that he would want to use the situation to his advantage and use his leverage while he can (after all, when 4 weeks are over carnations should have no reason to spend time with Edwin).

As for no game plan - I see inviting them to a concert much more appealing and fun (and well thought out) to do than their usual diner-talks as if they were at a wake. And all of them could have refused or say that it's too sudden just like Felicia did but they didn't (which I find very probable, even in Rosalind's case who had nothing better to do other than reading another book).

As for Hana-Mina thing see my response to TD.

 

[ffive]

This might seem silly... but I was hoping playing the Veronica + Mina route would inform / give insight to the Hana + Mina path.

For what little it's worth, the game makes it very obvious that bi-curious Mina is totally into Hana, so that she'd make a bold move like that while stoned was completely plausible to me without anything taking place between Veronica+Mina at the club; especially given Mina shows similar glimpses of being able to go for what she wants earlier with Edwin. Double so if Mina has the threesome with Edwin and Felicia under her belt.

 

[Biscardone]

Disclaimer: I haven't played this update yet. I'm tragically short on time and I plan to play the public release as soon as I'll be able to. So I can't comment on the update itself - but I'd like to throw my two cents in about the rest.
Also, disclaimer: wall of text incoming.

Honestly, judging the pacing of a serialized release against the big picture is something I don't feel very adept at. I feel like I'm just hoping for the best most of the time. I mean, I try to base each update around some central theme or scenario (this one was Victoria, and there's the through line about "truth" that filters down from that to the other characters), but it's hard to say what moments should be dwelled on or sped past from the perspective of someone sequentially playing through the scenes without hitting a thanks for playing brick wall. There's probably a lot of unneeded repetition in Edwin's thoughts and narration because of that. If it happens to all bleed together in satisfying manner, I consider myself lucky as the focus is usually on making a single update have a rise and fall that is satisfying.

Still, episodic releases both keep things fresh as a developer, but it also kinda skews your perspective. So, yeah, I'm happy that you think everything's fitting.

Here's some food for thoughts: the writing of an AVN with a long development cycle has lots in common with that of long-form literature and cinema (you know, three-act-structure and all that jazz). To continue with the similitude, such an AVN could be compared to a single tome, or a series / cycle of books; to a single movie (albeit a long one), or to an episodic serial. So, the delicate balancing act between a single release and the whole game could lean towards an extreme or the other: thematic episodes vs "the big picture". Personally, I prefer a skew towards the latter, but I completely understand if the monumental effort of releasing a game as complex as Pale Carnation makes you sway towards the former. In the worst case, you can also thighten up some parts of the script in a single revision at the end of the development, when the overall picture is clearer. Just, please, ignore the occasional chorus of "no content for my favorite character, worst update ever" - it doesn't contribute much to the discussion.

I do think ename brings up some good points. Mainly because some of the stuff he highlights (like the contrivance of the rock show) also crossed my mind. The tricky thing is a lot of doubt crosses your mind as an author. How I manage that is taking note when (enough) people pick up on those sore spots. There's actually a ton of things I'm unhappy with that never get mentioned, so I usually file those away as "being my own biggest critic."

(And when people pick on something I'm happy with, I usually just ignore it.)

Here's another tightrope with a delicate balance: the author's view, and the outside view. In my opinion the author's vision should always prevail, because trying to please everyone is (generally speaking) a sure-fire way to produce the lowest common denominator, blandes experiences possible - and the uniqueness of Pale Carnations is one of the reasons of its greatness. At the same time, while the author has the privilege of a bird's eye view on its work, working on a single scene for a long period of time may induce tunnel vision, and some of the player's observation may hold merit even in the author's eye. So, here's a suggestion, for what it's worth. Remember the "Van Doren fix"? If you think that implementing some observations suggested by the players may improve the overall picture, and it's feasible in a reasonable amount of time, it may be worth to apply some touch-ups to past content - it doesn't necessary need to be a branch, maybe just specific revisions are enough (a couple dialog lines, quick internal monologue to change perspective and color a scene etc). However, this should only be done if you, the authors, think the game would benefit from it, not only for the outside opinion's sake. Hell, the game's development is already an arduous process, and I'm willing to bet it's also becoming more difficult as time goes by, due to branching path shenanigans and overall complexity: stalling the development to correct "past mistakes" is bound to pave the way to madness. I'll also repeat myself: if the worst comes to the worst, and you really feel some sections of the game need to be rewritten, that's something that can be left for a future update, maybe even a final revision at the end of the development cycle, when you have the benefit of hindsight.

(No disrespect meant to ename, of course. Maybe I'll completely agree with him after my playthrough - but the above still stands, in my opinion)

Splitting a single day into two updates... ugh, that sounds like a nightmare. We already stress out about spending 3 years on a single week and what's gonna go into the last remaining one. Honestly, it might not be a bad idea. They'll be some lead up into the event of course, what with the aftermath of Ch4Up5's ending and the pre-exhibition stuff. I could see how you could build a cliffhanger on the event starting, but we'll see.

It'd feel kinda backwards finally getting back to a multi day update to doing our first "half day" update, but... I dunno. More frequent releases have always been our goal and we just get worse at it.

And here's the last balancing act. In my opinion, it's not a problem if the development time of single updates tend to grow as time passes by, but I also understand the frustration of an author seeing the finish line getting further and further away, and the feeling of "I have nothing to show for my efforts". So both choices (splitting a release or not) are perfectly acceptable, as long as you're confortable with them and they make sense to you.

For this point, and all the previous ones, I think you (the game's authors) should be a little "egotistical", and make choices that benefit you first. Not to be lazy, or complacent: but as we know yours is already a huge undertaking, perfection is the enemy of good, and you deserve to be satisfied by the process of creation as much as by the "product" itself. Pale Carnation is first of all a story: it is not your duty, your responsibility, or your job. This is a passion project, and it should never become a burden to you. We're only humans, and if cutting some slack ends up making the game slip from a 10/10 to a 9, or even an 8, so be it: I don't want to become exceedingly sappy, but you've already done more that most of us here can, and you deserve not burning out because of it.

This x1000000.

GIL's the fucking backbone of the project. He sells and elevates my inanity as fell as I'm concerned.

Let me wax poetic a little. In my opinion, you're two columns supporting the roof of a temple. Each one of you help and complement the other, and the building needs both to stand.

(Oh, and congrats for the release, of course!)

 

[ename144]

Seems strange to argue with the author himself, but...

That's because Veronica is imposing and so far the only intimate relations she's had with Mina was when she was touching her professionally during their exercises. We have no reason to believe that Veronica herself has taken the initiative and shown interest in Mina and if not for Edwin she wouldn't even know that Veronica might want to "play for the other team" (same goes for Veronica).

We also have this bit:
"Despite her egregious flirting at the gym, she likely wrote Mina off as an improbability. This was my chance to give the gals a little push."
Before that push Mina didn't read Veronica's touching as flirting since Veronica herself was very subtle about it and didn't even think there was a chance she could get further with her.

Meanwhile Hana and Mina had already had some steamy action and Hana herself admitted she had lesbian sex so Mina wanting a piece of action is much more probable in my eyes than Mina going after Veronica, who - for all she knows, Edwin knows worse than Mina does (since he barely goes to the gym). This is especially true if Mina had a threesome with Felicia.

Hana admitted she had sex with "fucking Zara Tessman," a crucial part of the story! She makes it clear that was a one-time exception from her normal tastes, and Mina is not Zara Tessman. Not that this detail would dampen Mina's curiosity in the slightest, but I think it would more than offset any confidence she got from having Hana's hands on her.

 

[ffive]

As a bit of an aside, I am curious if it makes sense what Grace said. It doesn't seem like Victoria was refusing to help or that Victoria has some special leverage to make Ian comply. It felt like Grace went nuclear for no reason, more to drive drama than anything else.

It seemed to me that Victoria was very much like "Well, i gave you my advice how to reason with your son, if you're not willing to hear it then i guess i'm just going to leave" and that's what caused Grace to change tack and go for blackmail to get what she wanted. It's not for drama, but simply because Grace wants things to be her way and only her way.

 

[Ottoeight]

I pretty much wrote the same thing just the other day. It actually is a good idea to skip through the scenes after you read them completely at least once. The amount of fluid movement GIL3D can convey with a few static render is like...well...I don't know any other VN that does it this well.

Or all the little subtle (and less subtle) expressions that just add so much story and convey so much information on their own, like this one for example:

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He also makes some of the best "WTF" faces:

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My favourite facial expressions are Hana's: how she raises and lowers her eyebrows is pure gold.

Nico says she's "under new management;" that sounds a little more direct than merely being "on loan."

Regardless, my point is that the girls might have more or less freedom at the Club based on the specific terms of their loan. We know Nico is a 'special interest,' and that is apparently a real ordeal. It would stand to reason a girl could be a sort of 'anti-special interest' and have a relatively easier time of it in the Club. But this is just speculation on my part.

Her "special interest" is Samson. She was hired because Samson wanna bang tattooed girls and he was only banging Harper.

Every "major" Patron we see at the Club has a kink and favourite girls. Nicolette was hired for Samson.

See my guide (btw, I'm gonna update them after Mr Bubu's walkthrough come out):

Samson's favourites are Harper and Nicolette because they have tattooes. His kink is M-F-M threesomes: he is bisex (as he told Edwin).

Andrea's special interest is the tenor, Vincenzo Bianchi.

 

[Takkatakka]

I'm definitely not saying Mina wouldn't be interested in Hana. She absolutely would, especially if you triggered that scene in the NHIE game. But as we know, just because Mina has fantasies that doesn't mean she's ready to act on them all on her own. I just feel like she needed some more experience (or a push from someone else) before she was ready to take this particular plunge.

And I doubt my interest in Veronica is influencing my opinion here since I have no desire to share her with Mina.

Well...I'm not sure if that is how TD intended the scene, but Mina going for Hana on her own makes sense compared to needing to be prodded to go after Veronica.

With Veronica she doesn't feel like she might be losing something (at least as long as not getting something can't be considered losing something).

With Hana she feels pressured by the kiss between Edwin and Hana to do...SOMETHING to not lose both to each other in a way. So in this scene she got prodded to act as well, just in a different way by Edwin (at least potentially) just kissing her and by Hana just kissing Edwin.

 

[sunaboz]

Hana admitted she had sex with "fucking Zara Tessman," a crucial part of the story! She makes it clear that was a one-time exception from her normal tastes, and Mina is not Zara Tessman.

One-time and yet to illustrate it Hana touched Mina in a way no mother should touch their daughter. Also, Hana's exact words were:

"So, that's the story of the first and so far only time I've ever gotten down with a woman."

 

[ModiThorrson]

Also mad that the mina and hana situation teased was just a kiss .

eh, while it would have been nice, at least the devs aren't leaving us wondering if it'll be an option. I would bet there is a scene either between them or all 3, at the very least a conversation.


My new desktop lol

 

[Takkatakka]

Honestly after the ending of Ch. 5 I can't stop thinking that there is a version of PC in a parallel universe in which neither the MC nor the player know of Vicky's porn past and in which she seems like the pure and perfect mother and how much the reveal would've hit then.

 

[ModiThorrson]

Honestly after the ending of Ch. 5 I can't stop thinking that there is a version of PC in a parallel universe in which neither the MC nor the player know of Vicky's porn past and in which she seems like the pure and perfect mother and how much the reveal would've hit then.

In that universe Edwin never would have gotten his shit together and would likely be worse than Kathleen.

 

[ename144]

It seemed to me that Victoria was very much like "Well, i gave you my advice how to reason with your son, if you're not willing to hear it then i guess i'm just going to leave" and that's what caused Grace to change tack and go for blackmail to get what she wanted. It's not for drama, but simply because Grace wants things to be her way and only her way.

I mostly agree, but there is one curious bit to the conversation: why did Grace bring up learning "everything" from Chuck unprompted? Victoria was at least playing along with Grace up until that point. We don't know the details yet, but given how Vicky reacted it's hard to see how Grace thought this would be productive. Maybe she assumed the mere implication she could blackmail Victoria would bring her into line, but that's a surprisingly dumb thought for someone as supposedly calculating as Grace. It's not like she needed an excuse to casually mention Chuck, Grace made it clear she's perfectly happy to bludgeon Victoria into submission if that's what it takes. So why bring it up before Victoria tried to walk away?

Well...I'm not sure if that is how TD intended the scene, but Mina going for Hana on her own makes sense compared to needing to be prodded to go after Veronica.

With Veronica she doesn't feel like she might be losing something (at least as long as not getting something can't be considered losing something).

With Hana she feels pressured by the kiss between Edwin and Hana to do...SOMETHING to not lose both to each other in a way. So in this scene she got prodded to act as well, just in a different way by Edwin (at least potentially) just kissing her and by Hana just kissing Edwin.

That's a valid point, there is more of a ticking clock with Hana. And as ffive noted, Mina was likely stoned. I still think it's a bit sudden, but not as much as I initially thought.

Thinking about it, the simplest way to explain it might be if Felicia encouraged Mina (deliberately or unknowingly) to make the move on Hana. It wouldn't be too hard to have Felicia see some minor spark between them in the after party (assuming the conditions are met), and it's totally in character to help her protege fan the flames.