- Jun 10, 2017
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I don't know. What if in fact the problem isn't that some people in the staff enforce the rule with too much enthusiasm, but with too few, letting people pass when they shouldn't have ?
Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread
- Thread starter OhWee
- Start date
It sounds funny but its not at all uncommon. Indie devs of all medias have been "leaking" there own content for decades now.
I think there more likely to enforce it more imo. I think all the ambiguity is because they want to show that there taking a strong stance on the subject while not actually removing potential revenue. However, if pressed, they would be more likely to double down on there already committed statements. I know it can be stressful for devs not knowing when or if the banhammer will fall but I believe it better not to push Patreon into a corner and just use the time you have left to find a ship that isnt sinking.
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I have suggested it in other threads, but another tactic for buying time (or even a permanent one) wouldn't be just devs setting up their own sites? I mean, with the stuff about not being able to talk about the game's content in their pages already makes a devblog or something necessary to advertise their game and attract new players in the first place. Might as well give the public builds there.
I'm skeptical if people simply link their devsite on the patreon page, and this site doesn't have anything explicit in the banner, they'll go through the trouble of checking out the links provided in the download section to see if it's forbidden content. First, it's off Patreon, they can't take blame for it. Second, it's one step too many to be feasible for extended periods of time given Patreon's size.
People are having problems because they're posting the game itself, right? I mean, the inconsistent enforcing would still be a problem, but a lot of people would dodge the bulled already (as it doesn't seem the majority is being bothered by their patron-only content, only public)
I'm skeptical if people simply link their devsite on the patreon page, and this site doesn't have anything explicit in the banner, they'll go through the trouble of checking out the links provided in the download section to see if it's forbidden content. First, it's off Patreon, they can't take blame for it. Second, it's one step too many to be feasible for extended periods of time given Patreon's size.
People are having problems because they're posting the game itself, right? I mean, the inconsistent enforcing would still be a problem, but a lot of people would dodge the bulled already (as it doesn't seem the majority is being bothered by their patron-only content, only public)
- Jun 10, 2017
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Yes and not. I think it's lewlabs who shared the information, they also ban any link to content banned by their guidelines. So if you do this, you'll still need to hide it a little because they'll click on the link... but perhaps not go further than the first page.
This said, I agree with @HollowJoints . So many days now, and all of our favorite perversion providers are still on Patreon. I see it as a status quo. They changed their rules, cleaned the site and even seemed really offensive since some pages where offline for days. But that's all...
They said that they'll test games and ban if they see some forbidden content. But almost all the main creators have had an update, the content is the same most of the time, and no one have been banned. If they have to, it will probably be without warning, but it really looks like they aren't this ready to start an open war against potentially 20% of their content and incomes. And with kickstarter making their own patreon-like site, they'll probably be even less ready in the future. It's not a new player, thousands of people already trust them and will trust their new service.
As long as they are alone on the market, they can make the rules. Creators will have to adapt or take the risk to loose everything. But the instant an alternative rise, if a creator feel insecure or unhappy, he will just use the said alternative and Patreon will loose their 5%. Worse, the said alternative can be better or easier to use. Then the word will start to spread, "Patreon is such an ass, but hey, now that I changed I even make more money, take less time to do this part of the job, sleep well and they even bring me coffee each morning, so do it you too".
There's a world of difference between directly linking content and linking a place that may have content if you look around.
That will give a lot more leeway unless they get stuck with a really stubborn staff member.
It's not a good solution but it's better than the alternatives of just hoping they don't check the gamelink (or that their reviewer isn't bothered by it) or, as some patreon devs already are doing, removing content to appease the thought police.
- Jun 10, 2017
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I messed my words. They explicitly said that the blog (in the case it's a blog) you link to, from your Patreon page, must be free of any content forbidden by their guidelines. It's late and I'm hungry, so I'll not search it, but it's somewhere in the previous pages.
And I'm doubting they'll follow throught cheking the whole blog if the page linked is just the main page, not the downloads section containing the games. It's better to keep the banner clean I guess, but I really don't think Patreon will spend the time and workforce in hunting down evidence of whether or not this blog that is linked provides games with forbidden content. I think at least for a while it's one step too many.
Again, this is not a good or definitive solution, but for the time being it is better than leaving the game link on Patreon and hoping you get reviewed by someone reasonable who is reading the guidelines as "not having the content explicitly in the first page". Adding more layers of protection is always a good thing.
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- Aug 22, 2017
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You're right, Patreon probably wouldn't waste time and effort checking linked sites but sometimes it is enough if one asshole makes a report to Patreon. At their current stance I don't think they would ignore it.
Also I don't get why so many people, like you, seem hellbent on circumventing the rules. A lot of devs really need the donations from Patreon and you want them to be at constant risk of loosing that money. Yeah, this whole incident sucks, nevertheless I don't want any dev to be at risk of loosing money because that would make them stop releasing content.
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And what you're proposing exactly? Because it sounds like you want devs to change their content, and if that's the case, I don't understand why anyone supports that. It may sound heartless, but if a dev simpy goes and betrays his player base changing the content they've supported him for because he's scared and doesn't want to try taking risks, he fucking deserves to lose. People always talk about how it's unfair to devs but it also is unfair to the people who have supported them in hopes of getting more content.
If you mean that people should consider leaving Patreon, I agree, but there's nowhere to leave. With this shitstorm probably some new venue will show up but people need to circumvent the rules for the time being or else they will lose their income and stop releasing content regardless.
- May 30, 2017
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Many dev's rely on patreon for their livelihood though. You can say they betraying the people who have supported them, but anyone unhappy with changes can simply stop pledging and move on. The basic model of patreon is your not buying content, your supporting the dev. For the dev's its not that simple, if patreon banned them and they lost their income for a month or longer until they either found a replacement or got a new job it could have all kind of knock on effects. If your using the patreon money to pay your rent, your landlord isn't going to let you off the hook coz you got caught breaking the rules n patreon banned you. As said all it takes is one person to report a dev for violating the rules and they screwed.
- Aug 22, 2017
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I don't want the devs to change their content but I they have to in order to keep their content alive they should do it.
Simply put it's either:
circumvent rules and risk getting banned -> get banned and loose income -> can no longer create content -> dev and patrons unhappy
or:
comply to the rules -> don't get banned -> have income and create new content -> dev and patrons happy
Devs may loose some income when changing content but they will loose all income in case Patreon starts kicking people out. The choice is clear. No, they don't need to circumvent the rules for the time being, they have to follow them. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?
I don't think this discussion can go anywhere because we have brutally different views on this.
First off, as a supporter, and this is true for a lot of supporters out there, if the dev stops making the content I want in the first place, that's as good as if he stopped making contnet in general. I will not keep supporting. And if we're talking about someone whose main shtick was the things Patreon now deems wrong, I don't see many sticking with them. I would be willing to support them off patreon, I would be willing to put up with how many tricks they need to pull to circumvent Patreon's rules (like, for example, releasing a version of the game without the forbidden content on Patreon and then elsewhere giving out a patch that puts the content back in. Some people who sell h-games on steam do this, for crying out loud, it is NOT something that would likely get them in trouble). I am not willing with sticking with them if they drop the content I support them for because they are too afraid of losing their income. Money in a crowdfunding environment comes from their fanbase. They should not disregard the fanbase in order to try staying in a platform that doesn't want them. The fact people encourage them to do this is fucking unbelievable to me.
If making games represents most of their income, these people should have been looking for alternatives to stop depending on Patreon long ago. Just like Youtube, relying on a third party platform who has no compromise with you always keeping the rules unchanging is stupid. This is not the first time Patreon has made very clear they are against erotic games, first they made them impossible to find through search, now they are enforcing rules about not publicly disclosing the pornographic nature of the content on the front page and policing what you can and can't do porn about. If you really think it will stop there, and that the devs changing to appease Patreon you make them stop, you are a fool. They'll keep taking and taking until they successfully wiped out this disgusting porn problem that keeps embarassing them in front of their partners. They are forcing the devs to stop or to drop the content they were supposedly passionate about and that got them a fanbase little by little, because they know people like you will always look for a compromise and think things won't get worse. Devs who are going along with it and supporters who keep encouraging it are being the useful idiots Patreon needs right now.
I don't know what the people trying to defend and say that they should adapt to whatever the tought police wants them to are into, but I guarantee you, you are coming next in their list of problematic things to get rid off.
Now lastly, about how crowdfunding works. Yes, you are not buying content but supporting the creator. But it baffles me how people will do whatever mental gymnastics and semantic hair-splitting necessary to relieve the creator of any kind of responsability towards his patrons. Especially when we're talking about the model people use for porn games, where updates come gradually, building up to a full game some day. It's just contradictory to argue that the people aren't supporting the dev because they want him to keep working in the production of that game. Just like you support an artist so they can keep doing art. You are helping him with monetary incentive so he keeps doing something that otherwise they would need to stop doing because they'd need to earn that money in another way. While the platform does give them the freedom to change and drop projects whenever he wants, that is just a cheap move after being supported by those people's money for so long. I really can't call people tryint to shut down anyone pointing this out and saying the devs shouldn't have obligations, that you are paying for the (incomplete) contnet that already exists and shouldn't hope for anything more, and other similar accusations, anything but intelectual dishonesty.
First off, as a supporter, and this is true for a lot of supporters out there, if the dev stops making the content I want in the first place, that's as good as if he stopped making contnet in general. I will not keep supporting. And if we're talking about someone whose main shtick was the things Patreon now deems wrong, I don't see many sticking with them. I would be willing to support them off patreon, I would be willing to put up with how many tricks they need to pull to circumvent Patreon's rules (like, for example, releasing a version of the game without the forbidden content on Patreon and then elsewhere giving out a patch that puts the content back in. Some people who sell h-games on steam do this, for crying out loud, it is NOT something that would likely get them in trouble). I am not willing with sticking with them if they drop the content I support them for because they are too afraid of losing their income. Money in a crowdfunding environment comes from their fanbase. They should not disregard the fanbase in order to try staying in a platform that doesn't want them. The fact people encourage them to do this is fucking unbelievable to me.
If making games represents most of their income, these people should have been looking for alternatives to stop depending on Patreon long ago. Just like Youtube, relying on a third party platform who has no compromise with you always keeping the rules unchanging is stupid. This is not the first time Patreon has made very clear they are against erotic games, first they made them impossible to find through search, now they are enforcing rules about not publicly disclosing the pornographic nature of the content on the front page and policing what you can and can't do porn about. If you really think it will stop there, and that the devs changing to appease Patreon you make them stop, you are a fool. They'll keep taking and taking until they successfully wiped out this disgusting porn problem that keeps embarassing them in front of their partners. They are forcing the devs to stop or to drop the content they were supposedly passionate about and that got them a fanbase little by little, because they know people like you will always look for a compromise and think things won't get worse. Devs who are going along with it and supporters who keep encouraging it are being the useful idiots Patreon needs right now.
I don't know what the people trying to defend and say that they should adapt to whatever the tought police wants them to are into, but I guarantee you, you are coming next in their list of problematic things to get rid off.
Now lastly, about how crowdfunding works. Yes, you are not buying content but supporting the creator. But it baffles me how people will do whatever mental gymnastics and semantic hair-splitting necessary to relieve the creator of any kind of responsability towards his patrons. Especially when we're talking about the model people use for porn games, where updates come gradually, building up to a full game some day. It's just contradictory to argue that the people aren't supporting the dev because they want him to keep working in the production of that game. Just like you support an artist so they can keep doing art. You are helping him with monetary incentive so he keeps doing something that otherwise they would need to stop doing because they'd need to earn that money in another way. While the platform does give them the freedom to change and drop projects whenever he wants, that is just a cheap move after being supported by those people's money for so long. I really can't call people tryint to shut down anyone pointing this out and saying the devs shouldn't have obligations, that you are paying for the (incomplete) contnet that already exists and shouldn't hope for anything more, and other similar accusations, anything but intelectual dishonesty.
One more thought about the new paywall thing in Patreon.
I'm still working on my demo version (rendering takes hours and hours on our lame machines, so it will take time) but when it's complete, where should we put it?
On Patreon it has to be put behind the paywall. So, no public demo, no patrons-to-be to watch it, no one could ever leak it.
So I considered to put it here myself. But... then I've read the upload rules (yes, I did, really!)
I would put the original Mega-link in the posting, but I surely won't put every release on four other download sites.
Any solution for this problem? I got stuck between the sheriff and the bandit. Both give me rules I don't like.
I'm still working on my demo version (rendering takes hours and hours on our lame machines, so it will take time) but when it's complete, where should we put it?
On Patreon it has to be put behind the paywall. So, no public demo, no patrons-to-be to watch it, no one could ever leak it.
So I considered to put it here myself. But... then I've read the upload rules (yes, I did, really!)
I would put the original Mega-link in the posting, but I surely won't put every release on four other download sites.
Any solution for this problem? I got stuck between the sheriff and the bandit. Both give me rules I don't like.
- Aug 22, 2017
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Agreed.
One question: Do you have several jobs just in case you get fired from one?
I don't. But I don't see how this is a fair comparison. As I've said, people whose main livelyhood comes from their games or other art, they should have a contingency plan in case they need to leave. Patreon is not an employer, it's a third party service that can throw you away as soon as they want. I thought this shit happening on a smaller scale on youtube would already make people savier about this.
You are not going to make a lifelong livelyhood out of a service like this, period. People who manage to get a substantial following and decent enough support they consider that their main income, they need to start looking into ways of not depending on Patreon anymore. I don't understand what's so baffling about this.
And this wasn't even my main point anyway.
Also if you want to make an employer analogy (which I find a bit unwarranted because we're talking about independed game developement), then it's not patreon who's the employer in this situation, it's the supporters. They are the ones giving their money, not Patreon itself. Supporters who enjoy your work will mostly follow you elsewhere if you need. Changing what you do to fit your current platform will alienate these supporters instead, affecting their income. So if you really want to talk about money and what the safest thing to do is, sticking with your guns that earned your support is the right call.
Also your talk about "having two jobs" makes no sense, I was talking about people moving away from Patreon once they already have a sizable number of fans and are getting decent money. For the people who are stuck getting 300 dollars a month or something, that's not possible, probably, but the people getting 2 thousand bucks or more each month should have just used it to launch themselves on their own site and keep patreon as a support only, ready to just sell their games if Patreon kicked them out, that sort of thing. They had the money, but they took Patreon for granted.
Also the little guy making $300, while he can't leave Patreon, I think changing his content is a far riskier move than trying to circumvent the rules (and let's keep in mind that despite people like you keeping the fearmongering strategy of "you WILL get banned for doing this" despite no one having been banned for this yet) even if they do have a chance of beinmg told to stop again. The big buys usually have enough people who will stick with them through change, even if they lose a bit of their money as you pointed out. The little guys will just die as any $50 that stops flowing in is already a big part of what they earned.
Also your talk about "having two jobs" makes no sense, I was talking about people moving away from Patreon once they already have a sizable number of fans and are getting decent money. For the people who are stuck getting 300 dollars a month or something, that's not possible, probably, but the people getting 2 thousand bucks or more each month should have just used it to launch themselves on their own site and keep patreon as a support only, ready to just sell their games if Patreon kicked them out, that sort of thing. They had the money, but they took Patreon for granted.
Also the little guy making $300, while he can't leave Patreon, I think changing his content is a far riskier move than trying to circumvent the rules (and let's keep in mind that despite people like you keeping the fearmongering strategy of "you WILL get banned for doing this" despite no one having been banned for this yet) even if they do have a chance of beinmg told to stop again. The big buys usually have enough people who will stick with them through change, even if they lose a bit of their money as you pointed out. The little guys will just die as any $50 that stops flowing in is already a big part of what they earned.
Is Patreon really needed?
To me it seems like it does not provide the service either side wants (creators and patrons) anymore, when it comes to adult content. I have been following adult games for well over a decade and for the most part creators had their own website (with varying professionality) that simply had a Donate button that let "patrons" (donors) send any amount of money to the creators online bank (usually PayPal) if they wanted to show support.
Then Patreon came along that looked like a well organized site that will lay down groundrules so both sides can feel safe and protected, all while taking a % of the profit of course.
However while their system has rules, it is not like the law will really back it up, thus easy to exploit. And it has been mostly exploited by the content creators. Most of them have a patron system that is like a monthly subscription while nothing really forces them to abide any kind of scheduled updates. We have all seen the cliché excuses for lack of updates or any real content when the update finally comes. Not to mention the fact that nothing stops the creator from completely dropping the game or entirely changing the direction of it, thus betraying the patrons without any kind of reprocussion.
One could say the patron is entitled to stop supporting but that won't make the money spent come back. And let's be real here, these games do not worth the money patrons spend on them. A new AAA title is sold for $60 while an adult game on Patreon developed for roughly the same amount of time (a couple of years, as dragging it out as much as possible is a good way to milk the patrons who want the niche product) will cost around twice as much after pledging a mere $5 a month. All while obviously lacking the quality, content and replayability of a lot of AAA title.
My point here is that Patreon became a money milking platform that exploits the lack of mainstream support of such content and the desire of a small group of people to have the niche product at all costs. While this is generally how capitalism works, it does not make it ethical or fair considering the system of Patreon and the anonymity of the internet makes punishing the betrayer all but impossible. Loss of patrons is not a real threat if a person can just create a new Patreon under a different persona and do it all over again.
And finally the current problem with Patreon itself: in the end it is a private company that can set any rules they want. They are allowed to act irrational and erratic. Their own slogans about letting creators focus on making stuff without limit is also no longer true. These new rules mean they very much limit the creators.
Patreon interferes with creative freedom, does not protect the patrons, mostly operate a by now automated system where their human staff (as always) seems to be the biggest source of errors while also happily taking away that 5% cut. It is really worth using?
Sites like this (F95zone) offer way better exposure (I don't think I ever searched for adult content on Patreon itself while I regularly check the Latest Updates page here). The community pretty much ensures multiple download mirrors (some people even make lighter versions for people with slower internet) so the games easily reach everyone. That means a site like this takes on exposure and distribution. So the only thing remains is the money problem which can be sold by the aforementioned "Donate" button linked to a PayPal account (or other similar service) on the most simple website of the creator. Since Patreon does not provide any real "customer" protection, the good ol' donation system wouldn't be any more risky for the people spending the money. On the other hand it might mean less income for the creators because they might need to actually do some scheduled work (gasp) if they want to get income. But at that point natural selection should do the trick: the devs who work and provide quality will make money, those who don't will not.
Or nothing changes on that front but the very least hypocritical people will not tell you "No, you are not allowed to make a game where the main character bangs his sister. Incest is bad. What? Why is Game of Thrones content is allowed then? That is totally different. Super different."
To finish off here's a tinfoil-hat theory:
If you depend on a site like Patreon as a creator you allow complete strangers (the human staff) to sabotage your income with any kind of bullsh*t reasoning. Currently certain devs are having ridiculous problems while others who are providing the same type of content are sailing free. The possiblity of collaboration between a few staff members and a few devs to sabotage others' work (their direct competition) is not unlikely. It has happened before on multiple content sharing site.
To me it seems like it does not provide the service either side wants (creators and patrons) anymore, when it comes to adult content. I have been following adult games for well over a decade and for the most part creators had their own website (with varying professionality) that simply had a Donate button that let "patrons" (donors) send any amount of money to the creators online bank (usually PayPal) if they wanted to show support.
Then Patreon came along that looked like a well organized site that will lay down groundrules so both sides can feel safe and protected, all while taking a % of the profit of course.
However while their system has rules, it is not like the law will really back it up, thus easy to exploit. And it has been mostly exploited by the content creators. Most of them have a patron system that is like a monthly subscription while nothing really forces them to abide any kind of scheduled updates. We have all seen the cliché excuses for lack of updates or any real content when the update finally comes. Not to mention the fact that nothing stops the creator from completely dropping the game or entirely changing the direction of it, thus betraying the patrons without any kind of reprocussion.
One could say the patron is entitled to stop supporting but that won't make the money spent come back. And let's be real here, these games do not worth the money patrons spend on them. A new AAA title is sold for $60 while an adult game on Patreon developed for roughly the same amount of time (a couple of years, as dragging it out as much as possible is a good way to milk the patrons who want the niche product) will cost around twice as much after pledging a mere $5 a month. All while obviously lacking the quality, content and replayability of a lot of AAA title.
My point here is that Patreon became a money milking platform that exploits the lack of mainstream support of such content and the desire of a small group of people to have the niche product at all costs. While this is generally how capitalism works, it does not make it ethical or fair considering the system of Patreon and the anonymity of the internet makes punishing the betrayer all but impossible. Loss of patrons is not a real threat if a person can just create a new Patreon under a different persona and do it all over again.
And finally the current problem with Patreon itself: in the end it is a private company that can set any rules they want. They are allowed to act irrational and erratic. Their own slogans about letting creators focus on making stuff without limit is also no longer true. These new rules mean they very much limit the creators.
Patreon interferes with creative freedom, does not protect the patrons, mostly operate a by now automated system where their human staff (as always) seems to be the biggest source of errors while also happily taking away that 5% cut. It is really worth using?
Sites like this (F95zone) offer way better exposure (I don't think I ever searched for adult content on Patreon itself while I regularly check the Latest Updates page here). The community pretty much ensures multiple download mirrors (some people even make lighter versions for people with slower internet) so the games easily reach everyone. That means a site like this takes on exposure and distribution. So the only thing remains is the money problem which can be sold by the aforementioned "Donate" button linked to a PayPal account (or other similar service) on the most simple website of the creator. Since Patreon does not provide any real "customer" protection, the good ol' donation system wouldn't be any more risky for the people spending the money. On the other hand it might mean less income for the creators because they might need to actually do some scheduled work (gasp) if they want to get income. But at that point natural selection should do the trick: the devs who work and provide quality will make money, those who don't will not.
Or nothing changes on that front but the very least hypocritical people will not tell you "No, you are not allowed to make a game where the main character bangs his sister. Incest is bad. What? Why is Game of Thrones content is allowed then? That is totally different. Super different."
To finish off here's a tinfoil-hat theory:
If you depend on a site like Patreon as a creator you allow complete strangers (the human staff) to sabotage your income with any kind of bullsh*t reasoning. Currently certain devs are having ridiculous problems while others who are providing the same type of content are sailing free. The possiblity of collaboration between a few staff members and a few devs to sabotage others' work (their direct competition) is not unlikely. It has happened before on multiple content sharing site.
- Aug 22, 2017
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You're right. I already noticed that this was not a very good comparison, even before you replied. My apologies.
I think that is very unlikely, even the big devs don't have the kind of money and influence to pull this off. And honestly, I don't think many would bother.
But you said yourself this is a tinfoil hat theory, so I think you're aware of that.
I agree wholeheartedly with the points you discuss in the rest of your post.
An alternative to just going back to a Donate button (which doesn't really help with the shcedule releases, as most people donate independent of releases) would be doing a patreon-style early access where people who donate can get the game a few weeks ahead, with people who wish to donating every time a new locked build comes out. Or just selling full games while allowing donors to play alpha and beta builds. People into niche content would go there and do this the same way they do in Patreon. There's nothing stopping people from applying what they learned with Patreon on their own sites. You could argue they have less exposure, but Patreon already removed all exposure adult game producers once had there.
OBS: I reposted because I edited this a lot to make stuff clearer and fear someone is already typing an answer. This way, if that's the case, they got a notification again. I'm sorry, won't do this again as I know it's annoying. The previous post was deleted.
- May 30, 2017
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@Ryel Patreon only takes a 5% cut of donations for themselves rest of the money goes to the dev. Paypal's ToS is even more stringent than patreons, or so I've read. So dev's can't put up their own websites and a paypal donate option as anything patreons ToS bans you can be sure paypals will to. Their are other payment processors but they all take a much larger percentage. As to your comments about mainstream games, yes they still $60 to buy the actual game, but with inflation the cost of creating that game has jumped alot. Hence why now a growing portion of AAA games are crammed full of micro transations, dlc, season pass, special editions etc.