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Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

lynx33

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Jun 7, 2017
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Sure no worries guys. Here are some fun facts about San Francisco. It's the most leftist city in the U.S. It was the heart of the hippy movement in the 60's ( ), the starting point of the gay rights movement in America, and is one of the least politically diverse cities in the U.S. with Republican support under 9% of the population. This is not a Mike Pence (I knew who lynx33 really meant) / "ultra-conservatives" problem. Patreon has been overtly political for months now. Just do some googling on Jack Conte statements and interviews. Silicon Valley has had a "anti-free speech" problem festering for a while now. It is highly likely that the Patreon's Trust and Safety council are composed of people who would delete the U.S. President's Twitter account out of spite instead of debating the fine points the 1st amendment with a "dirty pornographer."
I'm quite aware of SF's sociopolitical history. But you seem to think just cause a company has a liberal CEO and is based in a liberal city, they might not face outside pressure from investors and other people. I mean, we're living in 2017. The world is pretty globalized. In fairness, I think both left and right-wing values actually are parts of the pressure here. It's most of all part of society's uneasy relation with porn.

(In fairness, while I think taking down the president's twitter account would be wrong and most of all bad for the people cause it's a newsworthy account, he has broken their rules enough to be banned and then some).
 

DSSAlex

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Aug 19, 2017
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Thinking this is a directly political SJW thing is kinda goofy. It's about money, like everything from a tech company. Patreon expects the PR headache from hosting extreme porn will lose them money in some manner.

Its also pretty goofy to color everyone on the right and left with one brush. Ask a trot or ancom or tankie or Bernie Bro what porn should be verboten you'll get different answers. Ask a NeoNazi that hates Jews, a NeoNazi that thinks Jews are white now, a teacot and a 3%er the same question and you'll get different answers every single time.

A tech company like Patreon will absolutely have people from both poles working for them. I would bet mostly Bernie Bros and Hillarymen, but you're kidding yourself if you think they don't have some scientific racists fondling their head callipers.
 

Ark Thompson

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Oct 3, 2016
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I'm more balanced. But it's because I live in a country (France) more opened to this kind of art and, more globally, on eroticism and pornography.
In case my avatar wasn't explicit enough, I'm French too x) And while I do agree with you on the fact that we're far from being the worst county when it comes to pornography, we're still regressing. Look at the legislation around it for these 20 past years and it wasn't made of openings, but mainly of closings. Because as you stated, we are silent. A minority scream, the majority remains silent and this is how everything starts to fall apart (it's REALLY true in France cause this doesn't apply to porn only but to a lot of other fields). Because fuck common sense. You go outside and claim "fight for pornography to remain" in front of 10 people, even if 8 agree with you, barely 2 will join you and the other 8 will be against you because "Dude, you can't say out loud you defend pornography, even if everyone watch some"... Transposing this problem into the current social climate reminds me why I try to stay away from the news: To avoid shooting me in the head in front of the stupidity of mankind... -_-
 
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constantine

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Jul 1, 2017
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Their intend behind the exemption is to make a difference between "art" and "pornography". A difference needed since they've so many artists on their site. So technically, and in their own mind, they are neither inconsistent nor hypocrite.
But you are right, in the end it will only depend of who will review the game. What is now seen as art, like "Lolita" which they take as other example, was mostly censored in the past. Same for things like " " from Gustave Courbet, which was seen as pornographic before it become a world wide knew piece of art. And what to say about paintings depicting Pan, which are seen as art, but are also part bestiality...

And, here, they become hypocrites, because "pornography" and "art" share the same ambiguity and have both a blurred definition. A definition which not only evolve with the time, but also change depending of the persons. But their main hypocrisy is that, when asked to remove any blur in their guidelines, by defining what "pornography" is, they answered with : Is pornography whatever is not art.
This mean that they just don't answered at all. Alright, we now know what is pornography, so now can they please define what is "art" ? And if possible not as whatever is not pornography.
Haven't been following the thread closely, so late to the discussion, but wanted to weigh in on the topic of art vs. porn. With Game of Thrones you can remove the sex and incest, and you'd still have a story. The sex is only used as part of the story, but the story isn't dependent on it. But with porn, sex is the main point. If something has sex, but you can appreciate that thing regardless of the sex, it could be considered art. But if something has sex, and all you do is appreciate the sex, it could be considered as porn.

If, for example, there's a XXX-rated film with really beautiful cinematography, it could be called art because of the cinematography, because you're appreciating the film not just for the sex, but for the film-making. Of course, it depends on whether you can appreciate the film-making or not. If you don't, and only see it for the sex, than it isn't art--it's porn. Likewise for a book. If you appreciate Lolita not for the sexual content, but story and writing, it therefore has value as art.

In the case of Patreon and incest, most adult games with incest on Patreon (I assume) depends on the incest as the point of the content. Dreaming of Dana without the incest doesn't work, because the point of the story is they need another person to help them hide their incestuous romance. The incest isn't incidental like in GoT, rather it's the primary objective of the game's content. Now, could Dreaming of Dana be called art? Personally, I'd say no. I wouldn't play it without the sex. Nor could I appreciate the story without the sex. And the assets (renders) aren't exceptionally crafted enough to be appreciated as art.

Another thing people have to keep in mind, is that GoT is R-rated (tv show, not sure if the book is more explicit). The games we're talking about here depict hardcore sex with CG visuals. If these games were just R-rated, maybe Patreon wouldn't be so strict? But because they're hardcore, it makes it less tolerable for them.

For me, it doen't matter if something is considered art or porn. Each has value in their own way. Porn doesn't have to be artistic in order to prove its merit. If you make porn, make the best porn you can and don't compromise your work trying to prove that your porn is actually art. Conversely, if you make art and people view it as porn, don't compromise your art trying to prove that your art isn't porn.
 

anne O'nymous

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Haven't been following the thread closely, so late to the discussion, but wanted to weigh in on the topic of art vs. porn. With Game of Thrones you can remove the sex and incest, and you'd still have a story. The sex is only used as part of the story, but the story isn't dependent on it. But with porn, sex is the main point.
Except that you can't just use one example to define something as complex as this. I understood what you said, but now drop Game of Thrones. In place of it, take the books from Sade. Sex isn't just part of his stories, it is his stories. You can't remove the incest, rape, torture, pedophilia and corruption from his stories and still have something coherent. However some of his books are seen as masterpiece of french literary, and as art.


Dreaming of Dana without the incest doesn't work, because the point of the story is they need another person to help them hide their incestuous romance.
Are you sure about this ? Let's say he's black and she's white, or his Christian and she's Muslim. You can also follow the full redneck path and make a modern porn country version of Romeo and Juliet (side note: I'll totally play such a game). The story will work as well as the incest version.
On the opposite, take a game like Dating my Daughter. Remove the incest from the story, and there's nothing. He fell in love with her, she feel the same, they have sex, end. It's because of the incest, that the story have a meaning and that the relation need all this time to grow. Without the incest, it would just be a boring story of two peoples in love with each other but too shy/coward/stupid to make a move. But, because of the incest, it's a great story (at least for those who like it).
Still, neither are art, and Dating my Daughter isn't pornography either. There's sexual content, but its purely secondary. For now it's more because the author need something to hook his public the time for the main story to reach the point where both characters will have sex together.

This lead to the main question, which apply both for your comment and Patreon actual guidelines...

Now, could Dreaming of Dana be called art?
Why should it be called art ?
I know that I'm the one who opposed pornography and art, but as an explanation of Patreon intend, as well as their failure to remove the blur in their guidelines. It doesn't mean that things should be split in this binary way.
It's a game with content for adult, it doesn't mean that it must be art, nor it mean that, if it's not art, it can only be seen as pornography. Whatever the depiction of sex is softcore or hardcore, visual or not, before everything else it's a game. And it's a thing that Patreon seem to have forgot. Hey, you can even enjoy a game with a cheap story and poor CG but a great gameplay.
You can fap on a "porn" game, but most of the time you don't play it for this sole purpose. No, it's just that you want to play a game and feel like playing a "porn" one more than playing a regular one. What you expect is not to achieve an orgasm, neither to be full hard/wet at the end of the game. You want to pass a good time enjoying a game and, why not, end the mind full of lust and some kinky moves to try this night with you partner, but it's secondary.
And this oppose "porn" games to porn movies. You don't go suddenly and say, "I have some time to spend, why not watch a porn movie for the sole purpose to watch a movie". You watch a porn movie because you want to fap or as preliminary to the following sex with your partner. Porn is the sole reason you watch it, while most of the time porn isn't the main reason you play a "porn"game.

So, when you say that :
If something has sex, but you can appreciate that thing regardless of the sex, it could be considered art. But if something has sex, and all you do is appreciate the sex, it could be considered as porn.
You, as well as Patreon, forgot that we are talking about games. And so, to stick to your definition, if a game has sex, but you can appreciate the story, and/or the CG, and/or the gameplay, and/or just the game by itself, regardless of the sex, it must be considered as a game and not as pornography. Or, if you prefer, if when you close the game, you feel like you kinda enjoyed the time spent, it must be considered as a game and not as pornography. By so, whatever its content, whatever it's an incest game, whatever it have bestiality in it or none-consensual sex, it's pure fiction, perhaps a new kind of art or not, but clearly not something that have to be banned.
And like the appreciation part vary depending of who play the game, it must apply to every single one of these games, whatever you personally appreciate it or not.

For me, it's where Patreon failed, putting together movies, camwhores, attention whores and games, when games are a totally different kind of things.
 

Heinz Becker

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Jun 4, 2017
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I'm very disappointed.
I recently discovered Patreon and considered it a vessel to make some money (yes SOME money, not some MONEY) to be able to turn the story I wrote into a visual novel. Me and a friend of mine have invested a lot of time so far, many nights in his basement working with countless models in DAZ3D, I spent money to buy content in the DAZ store, all was going well... and now this shit.
Sorry, my story is incest based. It won't work with some "step" here and some "roommate" there. I don't have the bad big brother corrupting his sisters and his mom. In fact, they're all really nice people and I really like them. If I remove the incest stuff, there is pure nonsense left. Incest is essential for the storytelling.
So as Patreon decided to censor me and others, I decided to strike back. Today I suspended any Patreon activity regarding my own hardly developed page (yeah, they don't give a damn) and also canceled all pledges. I'm aware I'm hitting creators I like with this, but it's the only weapon I have and I intend to use it.
I'm stubborn. I will turn my story into a VN. I really started to like this kind of art. Yes, I consider it a kind of art. It will take much more time without money to buy a faster PC or a decent GPU, but it will happen. And there always will be a place to publish it.
Ffffff.... steam released....
 

Ignazzio

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May 8, 2017
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I'm very disappointed.
I recently discovered Patreon and considered it a vessel to make some money (yes SOME money, not some MONEY) to be able to turn the story I wrote into a visual novel. Me and a friend of mine have invested a lot of time so far, many nights in his basement working with countless models in DAZ3D, I spent money to buy content in the DAZ store, all was going well... and now this shit.
Sorry, my story is incest based. It won't work with some "step" here and some "roommate" there. I don't have the bad big brother corrupting his sisters and his mom. In fact, they're all really nice people and I really like them. If I remove the incest stuff, there is pure nonsense left. Incest is essential for the storytelling.
So as Patreon decided to censor me and others, I decided to strike back. Today I suspended any Patreon activity regarding my own hardly developed page (yeah, they don't give a damn) and also canceled all pledges. I'm aware I'm hitting creators I like with this, but it's the only weapon I have and I intend to use it.
I'm stubborn. I will turn my story into a VN. I really started to like this kind of art. Yes, I consider it a kind of art. It will take much more time without money to buy a faster PC or a decent GPU, but it will happen. And there always will be a place to publish it.
Ffffff.... steam released....
If I was in your place I would just hide it in a simple way and develop it as you wish. It's been weeks since it all started but they're not banning or even suspending devs. It doesn't look so bad. Patreon doesn't give a damn about those rules. Too many devs would fall. Simple removal of incest word on a main page works at this point.
 
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constantine

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Except that you can't just use one example to define something as complex as this. I understood what you said, but now drop Game of Thrones. In place of it, take the books from Sade. Sex isn't just part of his stories, it is his stories. You can't remove the incest, rape, torture, pedophilia and corruption from his stories and still have something coherent. However some of his books are seen as masterpiece of french literary, and as art.
For sure. I only used GoT because it was previously mentioned. Of course, you have to look at things accordingly. Not everything can be viewed in the same way. But I boiled it down to the simplest I could make it for brevity sake. Not going to write an entire essay on the matter, but wanted to give a response, because I think the topic is worth discussing.

I think people appreciate Sade as literature/art because of the boldness of his ideas about sex. He wrote about sex in a way that people deemed artistic because nobody at the time wrote about sex that way. It's art not because of content (the sex) but how it's written about? Which doesn't contradict my argument because as I said if you can appreciate how it's written, and not just the sex, it could be considered art. [/QUOTE]

Are you sure about this ? Let's say he's black and she's white, or his Christian and she's Muslim. You can also follow the full redneck path and make a modern porn country version of Romeo and Juliet (side note: I'll totally play such a game). The story will work as well as the incest version.
On the opposite, take a game like Dating my Daughter. Remove the incest from the story, and there's nothing. He fell in love with her, she feel the same, they have sex, end. It's because of the incest, that the story have a meaning and that the relation need all this time to grow. Without the incest, it would just be a boring story of two peoples in love with each other but too shy/coward/stupid to make a move. But, because of the incest, it's a great story (at least for those who like it).
Still, neither are art, and Dating my Daughter isn't pornography either. There's sexual content, but its purely secondary. For now it's more because the author need something to hook his public the time for the main story to reach the point where both characters will have sex together.
Am I sure? No. I'm always willing to hear people and change my mind. But with Dreaming of Dana I still feel like incest is integral to that story. Sure, you can make a similar story, but not the exact same story. I could make an Alien movie with no xenomorph. But then I couldn't call it an Alien movie. I could write another The Hobbit with no hobbits, but it wouldn't be The Hobbit. How could it be? It would be the same story, but I would be missing a key piece that defines those story--xenomorphs and hobbits. Or do you think xenomorphs are secondary in an Alien movie or hobbits are secondary in The Hobbit? So would I play a similar story to Dana without incestuous sex? Maybe. But I wouldn't play Dreaming of Dana without it.

I've not played Dating My Daughter, so can't comment on story, but from what I read aren't people frustrated because it lacks sex? Don't people want to have sex with the daughter? Would you play DMD without any sex?

This lead to the main question, which apply both for your comment and Patreon actual guidelines...



Why should it be called art ?
I know that I'm the one who opposed pornography and art, but as an explanation of Patreon intend, as well as their failure to remove the blur in their guidelines. It doesn't mean that things should be split in this binary way.
It's a game with content for adult, it doesn't mean that it must be art, nor it mean that, if it's not art, it can only be seen as pornography. Whatever the depiction of sex is softcore or hardcore, visual or not, before everything else it's a game. And it's a thing that Patreon seem to have forgot. Hey, you can even enjoy a game with a cheap story and poor CG but a great gameplay.
You can fap on a "porn" game, but most of the time you don't play it for this sole purpose. No, it's just that you want to play a game and feel like playing a "porn" one more than playing a regular one. What you expect is not to achieve an orgasm, neither to be full hard/wet at the end of the game. You want to pass a good time enjoying a game and, why not, end the mind full of lust and some kinky moves to try this night with you partner, but it's secondary.
And this oppose "porn" games to porn movies. You don't go suddenly and say, "I have some time to spend, why not watch a porn movie for the sole purpose to watch a movie". You watch a porn movie because you want to fap or as preliminary to the following sex with your partner. Porn is the sole reason you watch it, while most of the time porn isn't the main reason you play a "porn"game.

So, when you say that :


You, as well as Patreon, forgot that we are talking about games. And so, to stick to your definition, if a game has sex, but you can appreciate the story, and/or the CG, and/or the gameplay, and/or just the game by itself, regardless of the sex, it must be considered as a game and not as pornography. Or, if you prefer, if when you close the game, you feel like you kinda enjoyed the time spent, it must be considered as a game and not as pornography. By so, whatever its content, whatever it's an incest game, whatever it have bestiality in it or none-consensual sex, it's pure fiction, perhaps a new kind of art or not, but clearly not something that have to be banned.
And like the appreciation part vary depending of who play the game, it must apply to every single one of these games, whatever you personally appreciate it or not.

For me, it's where Patreon failed, putting together movies, camwhores, attention whores and games, when games are a totally different kind of things.
I think I understand what you're saying here. I didn't mean to make things come across as binary. Again, i'm simplifying things, because I would go on for too long if I had to get into the finer and more nuanced points. I'm trying to make my point as short and easy to digest as I can, because talking about the meaning of art and porn is complex and there's no definitive answers, nor am I trying to say my opinion is definitive.

If you can appreciate an adult game for something other than sex, by all means you don't need to call it porn. I don't think I ever said anyone had to. Just pointing out what distinguishes something as porn. I mean, it's still up to the eye of the beholder. It is subjective after all. But if you advertise your game for its sex, how is Patreon not going to think it's porn? If you go to a stripclub and you appreciate the furniture, doesn't mean that its no longer a stripclub to the other customers. You may read Playboy for articles doesn't mean Playboy doesn't have naked women in it.

Are people on this forum to look for games, or are they on this forum to look for games with sex? Personally, I'm not here for games for story or graphics, I'm here for games that have sex. If I want story and graphics I'm playing Uncharted 4, and I'm not pretending to play Dreaming of Dana for the same reason I'm playing Uncharted 4. Why should I pretend I'm playing it for the same reason? You cant tell me to play Dreaming of Dana because I have to appreciate it as a game. If I want to appreciate it as porn, let me. Likewise, you want to appreciate it as a game, regardless of the sex, then please do so.

Just to make it clear I don't agree with Patreon's ban, but I can see why they'd have issue with a game like Dreaming of Dana and not Game of Thrones. You seem to think that Patreon should not see a difference between the two, regardless of sex, because stories are stories, art is art, games are games, etc., and ought to treated as such, without sex, incest, etc. being a focus. But to me, they are different, and I tried explaining why I think they're different, and why sex does matter, and why its an integral part that can't just be tossed aside.

I don't want Patreon to ban anything, rather I want them to let people decide for themselves if it's something they want. If I want porn on Patreon let me, and I don't need to justify it as anything else other than porn. You seem to be saying that porn is also something else (art, literature, game), and that something else should makes Patreon's ban unjustified. While, I believe porn can just be porn, and Patreon shoudn't ban porn because porn doesn't have to be something else to have value, imo. I hope I've made my thoughts clear, whether we agree or not, I appreciate discussing this.
 

anne O'nymous

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Just to make it clear I don't agree with Patreon's ban, but I can see why they'd have issue with a game like Dreaming of Dana and not Game of Thrones. You seem to think that Patreon should not see a difference between the two, regardless of sex, because stories are stories, art is art, games are games, etc., and ought to treated as such, without sex, incest, etc. being a focus.
No. I say that, whatever they want to see adult content as a simple opposition between "art with adult content" and "none art with adult content", they shouldn't consider that everything falling into the "none art" category are the same and that they can look at them in the same way. This simply because it's a none sense.
To be good, a "porn" book must feed your imagination, while a "porn" movie must feed your primal sexual instinct. They are two different things and works in two different ways. So they also need to be judged according to two different kinds of criteria. And it's the same whatever it's a book, a movie, some audio track, a game, a live show, an educational content or whatever else can be possibly seen as "porn". In fact, I will even go further, the definition of "pornography" is completely dependent to the support of the content.

If it's a book, just writing about the intercourse itself and making more than generic description of the body, make it pornographic. Note, by "writing about the intercourse", I obviously don't refer to sentence like, "they had torrid sex", it need to be a little more specific.
But a movie like Top Gun, which have a torrid (at least in my memory) sex scene, isn't a porn movie. Depicting this scene in a book would have make it pornographic, but showing it in a movie isn't enough. Same for a lot of movies with (full or not) frontal nudity in them. They can be R-rated, but they'll not be XXX-rated. To be seen as pornographic, a movie must not only show the genitalia and the act, but it must also show the genitalia during the act.
This said, in the same time an educational movie can show the genitalia during the act, and still not be pornographic. Same for an educational book with detailed depiction of a human body. So it's not only the support which must be take in count. The intend and purpose also change the way the content must be judged.
And so, what about games ?

By nature they are way more statics than a movie. What can work for an eroticism or regular movie, two people laying naked in a bed in what seem to be missionary position, can't works in a game. In the movie you've what miss in a game, the motion. Two/three frames can't depict an intercourse with such a scene. Are they having sex ? Or perhaps an agitated sleep ? Oh, no, I know, they share the same nightmare, is it that ?
While a movie have the help of the motion and sound to depict the scene, a game rely on the (almost) sole static visual. Because of this, even softcore games needs to be more explicit. But, is the fact that they look more like a pornographic movie, enough to make them pornographic games ? To me the answer is clearly: no.

There's a difference between the average indie porn game and the "fuck her like you want, all in PoV" games made by the porn industry. And it's not in the fact that the latter use live characters, but in the intend and purpose of the game. In indie games, sex is a part of the story, whatever it's a good or a bad one, but the main purpose is still the game. There's a story playing in front of you, and you are part of it since you take some decision which influence the way both the story and the game progress.
At the opposite, in games from the porn industry, sex is the only purpose, while the game is just a pretext. You have only one choice, "how to fuck her now". In the end, you don't just see the difference will playing the game, you also feel it. You'll close the game and say that you had a good fap, not that you enjoyed playing this game.
They clearly are two different kind of games, despite the fact that they both talk about sex and show a lot of sex scenes. So, unlike Patreon, and apparently also you, seem to think, you can't just define pornography in a global way. You need to separate not only the supports (book, movie, game, whatever) and have separated criteria according to them, but you also need to separate the purpose/intend and yet have separated criteria according to them.


You seem to be saying that porn is also something else (art, literature, game), and that something else should makes Patreon's ban unjustified.
It is always something else since pornography isn't a thing by itself but just a genre. As well as you have polar or SF movies/books/games, you have pornographic movies/books/games. So, like I said, you simply can't use the same definition of pornography to judge them all.
In a way, the problem is that the sentence, "I know porn when I see it" (and so qualifying something as pornographic), can only works when you know what you talk about. Puritans from the Victorian era would say that eroticism movies are pornographic... until they show their first porn movie and say, "no, in fact it's THIS which is pornography, the previous ones were just pervert".
And it's the same for "porn" games. If you only know games like the ones Winged Cloud make, you'll say that they are kind of pornographic. Then you play any average western "porn" game and say that, in fact, it's them which are pornographic, while Winged Cloud make eroticism games. Then you play some fucked asian games and change once again.
And it continue until you've seen all the different kinds of "porn" games. Just because now you have a better understanding of how things can be depicted in this particular support and how the intend and purpose are rendered.


I hope I've made my thoughts clear, whether we agree or not, I appreciate discussing this.
Same here. This said, I'm not sure that we still are on the initial intend of this thread.
 
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Ignazzio

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WhiteRaven who was in a patrecon wrote:
"We had a lunch with the patreon staff for adult content, as you may know they've updated the policy for adult content and wanted to get our feedback. If you're a creator and reading this feel free to message me if you're curious about the stuff that we talked about!

Basically there's no change in the policy, they only have a team that enforce the policy now."
Seems like it can be ignored
 

Ignazzio

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Mail from Patreon to MuseX (Farmer's Dreams):
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
Definitely a different attitude this time. Clearly aimed at Patreon public site and not a content
 
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constantine

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No. I say that, whatever they want to see adult content as a simple opposition between "art with adult content" and "none art with adult content", they shouldn't consider that everything falling into the "none art" category are the same and that they can look at them in the same way. This simply because it's a none sense.
To be good, a "porn" book must feed your imagination, while a "porn" movie must feed your primal sexual instinct. They are two different things and works in two different ways. So they also need to be judged according to two different kinds of criteria. And it's the same whatever it's a book, a movie, some audio track, a game, a live show, an educational content or whatever else can be possibly seen as "porn". In fact, I will even go further, the definition of "pornography" is completely dependent to the support of the content.
I agree with this.

If it's a book, just writing about the intercourse itself and making more than generic description of the body, make it pornographic. Note, by "writing about the intercourse", I obviously don't refer to sentence like, "they had torrid sex", it need to be a little more specific.
But a movie like Top Gun, which have a torrid (at least in my memory) sex scene, isn't a porn movie. Depicting this scene in a book would have make it pornographic, but showing it in a movie isn't enough. Same for a lot of movies with (full or not) frontal nudity in them. They can be R-rated, but they'll not be XXX-rated. To be seen as pornographic, a movie must not only show the genitalia and the act, but it must also show the genitalia during the act.
This said, in the same time an educational movie can show the genitalia during the act, and still not be pornographic. Same for an educational book with detailed depiction of a human body. So it's not only the support which must be take in count. The intend and purpose also change the way the content must be judged.
Yeah, I don't know if I agree with having to show genitalia. Japanese porn censors genitalia, but I'd still call it porn. Also hentai with tentacles. But I agree that intent and purpose change things. There are many factors to be considered for sure.

And so, what about games ?

By nature they are way more statics than a movie. What can work for an eroticism or regular movie, two people laying naked in a bed in what seem to be missionary position, can't works in a game. In the movie you've what miss in a game, the motion. Two/three frames can't depict an intercourse with such a scene. Are they having sex ? Or perhaps an agitated sleep ? Oh, no, I know, they share the same nightmare, is it that ?
While a movie have the help of the motion and sound to depict the scene, a game rely on the (almost) sole static visual. Because of this, even softcore games needs to be more explicit. But, is the fact that they look more like a pornographic movie, enough to make them pornographic games ? To me the answer is clearly: no.

There's a difference between the average indie porn game and the "fuck her like you want, all in PoV" games made by the porn industry. And it's not in the fact that the latter use live characters, but in the intend and purpose of the game. In indie games, sex is a part of the story, whatever it's a good or a bad one, but the main purpose is still the game. There's a story playing in front of you, and you are part of it since you take some decision which influence the way both the story and the game progress.
At the opposite, in games from the porn industry, sex is the only purpose, while the game is just a pretext. You have only one choice, "how to fuck her now". In the end, you don't just see the difference will playing the game, you also feel it. You'll close the game and say that you had a good fap, not that you enjoyed playing this game.
They clearly are two different kind of games, despite the fact that they both talk about sex and show a lot of sex scenes. So, unlike Patreon, and apparently also you, seem to think, you can't just define pornography in a global way. You need to separate not only the supports (book, movie, game, whatever) and have separated criteria according to them, but you also need to separate the purpose/intend and yet have separated criteria according to them.
You make valid points: that the choice these games give you offer you an experience outside of the sex, unlike POV games which are less interactive. And it's true, but to me, these choices are mostly about who you choose to have sex with anyways. Do I pick Andrea or Maria or Jessica? Do I choose the mom or the daughter. But yeah there are differences, but it's mostly in presentation. I do agree purpose/intent matters, and you can't just put everything in the same basket, but I still believe there is also a global definition. Just like there are different shades of colors, yet there is a global view of what the color blue is. You can have light blue, dark blue, but that doesn't change it being called blue. I suppose I feel about porn the same way. Porn can have many shades, but it still remains porn. But if you add another color to porn, then porn can also become something else. Blue can become purple if you add red, then porn can be a game if you add more gamey stuff to it.

It is always something else since pornography isn't a thing by itself but just a genre. As well as you have polar or SF movies/books/games, you have pornographic movies/books/games. So, like I said, you simply can't use the same definition of pornography to judge them all.
In a way, the problem is that the sentence, "I know porn when I see it" (and so qualifying something as pornographic), can only works when you know what you talk about. Puritans from the Victorian era would say that eroticism movies are pornographic... until they show their first porn movie and say, "no, in fact it's THIS which is pornography, the previous ones were just pervert".
And it's the same for "porn" games. If you only know games like the ones Winged Cloud make, you'll say that they are kind of pornographic. Then you play any average western "porn" game and say that, in fact, it's them which are pornographic, while Winged Cloud make eroticism games. Then you play some fucked asian games and change once again.
And it continue until you've seen all the different kinds of "porn" games. Just because now you have a better understanding of how things can be depicted in this particular support and how the intend and purpose are rendered.
I don't agree that porn isn't a thing by itself. Putting it in a film/book/game is just the form it's being presented in. I can watch two people have sex without it being in a movie/book/game. But, sure, people's perception of porn can change over time and experience, or what culture you're in. Beliefs are fluid, and even now, my beliefs about porn is being shaped by this discussion. I won't say I have the right ideas or the wrong ideas, I'm just trying to figure it out for myself.



Same here. This said, I'm not sure that we still are on the initial intend of this thread.
Cheers!
 

Deleted member 95950

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Definitely a different attitude this time. Clearly aimed at Patreon public site and not a content
Their rules have always been that no adult content can be publicly visible. They just didn't really enforce it. This is separate from the newly tightened restrictions, IMO.
 

Heinz Becker

Member
Jun 4, 2017
109
162
It's about adult content in general, not about incest.
But this would mean there will be no uncensored public demos anymore.
Pity...
How do you get patrons without a demo?
 

Ignazzio

Engaged Member
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May 8, 2017
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It's about adult content in general, not about incest.
But this would mean there will be no uncensored public demos anymore.
Pity...
How do you get patrons without a demo?
The same way they did before - thru leaked versions. Piracy makes devs alive and those demos aren't really significant. But that's a problem ofc. Who knows what will be forbidden next.
 

Heinz Becker

Member
Jun 4, 2017
109
162
The same way they did before - thru leaked versions. Piracy makes devs alive and those demos aren't really significant. But that's a problem ofc. Who knows what will be forbidden next.
I agree. But to leak it, someone has to HAVE it first. If everything, even the demo, is behind a paywall and you don't have any patrons yet, noone is there to download and leak.
Ok, once we got our own demo up, we could leak it ourselves here on f95.
Quite funny, the only way for a creator to get patrons will be becoming a pirate himself.
Crazy world.
 

Ignazzio

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May 8, 2017
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I agree. But to leak it, someone has to HAVE it first. If everything, even the demo, is behind a paywall and you don't have any patrons yet, noone is there to download and leak.
Ok, once we got our own demo up, we could leak it ourselves here on f95.
Quite funny, the only way for a creator to get patrons will be becoming a pirate himself.
Crazy world.
Yeah. Some devs hate it and say something about stealing etc. but they wouldn't exist at all without piracy. First versions are usually free and if they have enough potential they're shared. Seems like this forum might be much more useful for devs in a future
 

muttdoggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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Is there a way to get a hold of patreon? We need the developers to ask "What's with all these different standards?? Why are some are let off easy with minor word changes and some are told their games cannot contain that content even behind a paywall?"
Say it appears that they don't have cohesive rules and apparently some of their staff have gone rogue. It needs to be brought to their attention.. and I would also caution them that blogs and journalists are catching wind of this situation.
Edited.. bonus points for using the analogy of the business being an airplane, the CEO is the Captain and the new team is the co-pilot. Is the plane going to stay aloft when the Captain has the controls going one way but the co-pilot is pulling the other direction or even pushing it further than the Captain is.?
 
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Caligula

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Aug 22, 2017
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Is there a way to get a hold of patreon? We need the developers to ask "What's with all these different standards?? Why are some are let off easy with minor word changes and some are told their games cannot contain that content even behind a paywall?"
Say it appears that they don't have cohesive rules and apparently some of their staff have gone rogue. It needs to be brought to their attention.. and I would also caution them that blogs and journalists are catching wind of this situation.
Edited.. bonus points for using the analogy of the business being an airplane, the CEO is the Captain and the new team is the co-pilot. Is the plane going to stay aloft when the Captain has the controls going one way but the co-pilot is pulling the other direction or even pushing it further than the Captain is.?
Yes, it's annoying that there is no consistent enforcing of their rules through their employees but I don't know if it would be a good idea to point that out to them. Might work well or they finally decide to enforce their TOS the hard way and start kicking people off their platform. Could go either way.