Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

[dunhill]

so i've read the new rules on Patreon and now apparently in addition to asking the adult game devs to remove any NSFW images from their page and public post, remove "incest, rape, mind control, blackmail, murder, abuse" tag from the page, also switching them to adult creator (which removes them from searches making it extremely hard to find on Patreon even if you type in the game dev name), they Patreon is now forcing game devs to change their games to Patreon new rules.... this means that if they think the charters look underage they'll ban you (even if you base the charter on some porn you saw on PornHub they don't care) there can't be any inappropriate relations anymore (so no incest in the game, even step relatives isn't allowed, teacher/ student is also banned, and i could see boss/ employee also falling under this category and many more)..... they don't care if its fiction or not... oh btw games that where you can practice polygamy will also be banned (harem style games and any game with 3ways or group sex or orgy)

NOW HERE IS THE KICKER!!! apparently they're allowing Game of Thrones which is incest, blackmail, underage, rape, mind control, murder, abuse, maybe even other fetishes that will be illegal in real life.... what Patreon is doing is trying to make things very difficult for adult game devs because they no longer want them on the platform, as soon as the game devs adjust and make changes to the game Patreon will make up new rules until the adult game devs leave the platform....

 

[FahrenheitArchivist]

so i've read the new rules on Patreon and now apparently in addition to asking the adult game devs to remove any NSFW images from their page and public post, remove "incest, rape, mind control, blackmail, murder, abuse" tag from the page, also switching them to adult creator (which removes them from searches making it extremely hard to find on Patreon even if you type in the game dev name), they Patreon is now forcing game devs to change their games to Patreon new rules.... this means that if they think the charters look underage they'll ban you (even if you base the charter on some porn you saw on PornHub they don't care) there can't be any inappropriate relations anymore (so no incest in the game, even step relatives isn't allowed, teacher/ student is also banned, and i could see boss/ employee also falling under this category and many more)..... they don't care if its fiction or not... oh btw games that where you can practice polygamy will also be banned (harem style games and any game with 3ways or group sex or orgy)

NOW HERE IS THE KICKER!!! apparently they're allowing Game of Thrones which is incest, blackmail, underage, rape, mind control, murder, abuse, maybe even other fetishes that will be illegal in real life.... what Patreon is doing is trying to make things very difficult for adult game devs because they no longer want them on the platform, as soon as the game devs adjust and make changes to the game Patreon will make up new rules until the adult game devs leave the platform....

It's frustrating but ultimately unsurprising what Patreon is doing. I mean, just look at what Twitter, Tumblr, and Youtube have already been doing on their end.

Here's hoping, however, that creators and the various adult communities can rally towards a more reliable alternative service soon. As there will always be a market for adult content and it will persist with or without Patreon.

Doesn't mean it's not frustrating as all hell though.

 

[hironhiron]

Have to say I'm confused. EVERY major porn site does step family stuff now, some are specifically about that niche. Loads of stuff on one of the biggest clip sales site where they use family terms in the videos...

So....what's the problem in a game....? It's as much fiction as a book is.

 

[kzk0987]

I don't agree with Japan and Elf situation as in my opinion it's much more complex than Patreon's guideline issue. Japan has a real gaming industry and our western one can be called as such only because of lack of a proper term. It's totally different model of distribution and it's highly dependable on both Patreon and monthly patrons. You are right ofc that playerbase will bite devs to some extent and it might be serious for individual devs but not for a whole market as players have nowhere to go as well as devs. Devs will adapt into something within rules and people will take it as they won't find anything else of the same quality. That's just one of the possibilities ofc and I find it rather likely to happen. You're right about other fetishes as well (not NTR - it can be easily consensual). If that was all about incest it wouldn't really bother me as it's specified. Non-consensual is what bothers me as it's such a term you can use to ban anything in adult games. Next year will probably show how far they go with these guidelines. In this pace it might take them years to remove all incest games. They could easily hit all biggest devs (DoD, DMD,BB,SS) at same time and look at the other panicking devs.

You are partially right. Because I feel like you forget to account for the fact a lot of people in a fetish game playerbase are fetishists of that specific kink. You seem to assume everyone will stick with a game stripped of the content they like (be it incest, mind control, sexual training or whatever Patreon decides to go after next) because there are no other porn games in the western market. That is a wrong assumption. Yes there are people who will check out games no matter what they cover, but if a person likes corruption and the game removes the corruption element, they will walk away. That is the part that really may bite, especially with minor devs.

And the thing about Elf was just an example of how even a big company on a big market can be hit by a disappointed/revolted fanbase. The destructive potential is actually potentialized the smaller the niches are. Again, because people want a game with their fetish, not just a game. Not all games will suffer this, DoD for instance I think will be fine as there are many other draws and crowds playing it, but that's not the case for the majority of games, most cater to their niche and that's it.

Have to say I'm confused. EVERY major porn site does step family stuff now, some are specifically about that niche. Loads of stuff on one of the biggest clip sales site where they use family terms in the videos...

So....what's the problem in a game....? It's as much fiction as a book is.

Patreon can change their rules to whatever they like without any need for it to make sense, and without really needing to answer to anyone. They're a private company.

Honestly, I think this is only the beginning. People need to find a Patreon alternative fast, but they seem more interested in complying and just praying Patreon won't change the game again. I risk sounding like a doomsayer, but I think there's real danger of what little western erotic game scene/market has flourished in the past few years will be completely destroyed by na combination of overdependence on patreon and their hardening of rules clearly meant to weed out any problematic and risky stuff.

 

[Ignazzio]

You are partially right. Because I feel like you forget to account for the fact a lot of people in a fetish game playerbase are fetishists of that specific kink. You seem to assume everyone will stick with a game stripped of the content they like (be it incest, mind control, sexual training or whatever Patreon decides to go after next) because there are no other porn games in the western market. That is a wrong assumption. Yes there are people who will check out games no matter what they cover, but if a person likes corruption and the game removes the corruption element, they will walk away. That is the part that really may bite, especially with minor devs.

And the thing about Elf was just an example of how even a big company on a big market can be hit by a disappointed/revolted fanbase. The destructive potential is actually potentialized the smaller the niches are. Again, because people want a game with their fetish, not just a game. Not all games will suffer this, DoD for instance I think will be fine as there are many other draws and crowds playing it, but that's not the case for the majority of games, most cater to their niche and that's it.

Ofc you are right. People are into something so they play specific type of games. But in my opinion (I can't prove it in any way) most people don't have any specific internet fetish and they play games out of different reasons (quality of renders, gameplay etc.). I dare to say that even 80% of total playerbase that's on Patreon doesn't have their own fetish. But that's just my assumptions. The truth is that it will hit devs - only scale is unknown.

 

[PayneToTheMax]

Have to say I'm confused. EVERY major porn site does step family stuff now, some are specifically about that niche. Loads of stuff on one of the biggest clip sales site where they use family terms in the videos...

So....what's the problem in a game....? It's as much fiction as a book is.

It doesn't fit into the worldview of the people in control?

 

[kzk0987]

Ofc you are right. People are into something so they play specific type of games. But in my opinion (I can't prove it in any way) most people don't have any specific internet fetish and they play games out of different reasons (quality of renders, gameplay etc.). I dare to say that even 80% of total playerbase that's on Patreon doesn't have their own fetish. But that's just my assumptions. The truth is that it will hit devs - only scale is unknown.

For the really big patreon games that's probably true, but let's be honest here, the majority of games, especially smaller ones, don't have high quality anything. They use basic renders and assets, they don't have particularly good writing and either no gameplay or just a stat grind. The thing they do well is catering to their feitsh. The fetish related writing and visuals are good, do it for the fetishists, and that's the support they get. A game like Corruption by Mr.C makes 3.500 a month probably based on an entire audience of corruption fetishists, and also incest ones. It's not a good game by any other criteria other than how it uses it's fetishes. And I love that game by the way. I feel that's the reality of most the low and mid tier patreons. Even a relatively big one like CypressZeta, for his current game Snow Daze most of the playerbase is MC fetishists and incest fetishists. Just see the backlash the game gets from people who are not into it for its writing and content. And that's all things considered one of the best in the technical aspects and in achieving a professional look.

So I really don't think the majority of people on Patreon are chance players drawn in by graphics or gameplay, because most gamers deliver much more in fetish appeal than in those departments. Even more so now that Patreon gives then zero exposure, as Adult games can't be found by search. So an unnassuming player won't really stumble on it. People will need to go to these games through communities such as this one, which are often segmented into fetishes as well.

 

[Ignazzio]

For the really big patreon games that's probably true, but let's be honest here, the majority of games, especially smaller ones, don't have high quality anything. They use basic renders and assets, they don't have particularly good writing and either no gameplay or just a stat grind. The thing they do well is catering to their feitsh. The fetish related writing and visuals are good, do it for the fetishists, and that's the support they get. A game like Corruption by Mr.C makes 3.500 a month probably based on an entire audience of corruption fetishists, and also incest ones. It's not a good game by any other criteria other than how it uses it's fetishes. And I love that game by the way. I feel that's the reality of most the low and mid tier patreons. Even a relatively big one like CypressZeta, for his current game Snow Daze most of the playerbase is MC fetishists and incest fetishists. Just see the backlash the game gets from people who are not into it for its writing and content. And that's all things considered one of the best in the technical aspects and in achieving a professional look.

So I really don't think the majority of people on Patreon are chance players drawn in by graphics or gameplay, because most gamers deliver much more in fetish appeal than in those departments. Even more so now that Patreon gives then zero exposure, as Adult games can't be found by search. So an unnassuming player won't really stumble on it. People will need to go to these games through communities such as this one, which are often segmented into fetishes as well.

So let's say we won't agree on this one. In mainstream gaming industry it's proven that only about 20% are engaged gamers which are writings on forums, look for informations about game etc. Rest are just casuals that play whatever market brings. I really doubt it's different here. With smaller devs that's sure, but I'm highly sceptical that any fetish on Patreon could gather more than 3k$ on its own. Such a financial abbarations like DoD, DMD or BB just can't fall whatever their devs will do. That's just my opinion ofc. Time will verify it. Future on Patreon surely dosn't look good for them

 

[kzk0987]

So let's say we won't agree on this one. In mainstream gaming industry it's proven that only about 20% are engaged gamers which are writings on forums, look for informations about game etc. Rest are just casuals that play whatever market brings. I really doubt it's different here. With smaller devs that's sure, but I'm highly sceptical that any fetish on Patreon could gather more than 3k$ on its own. Such a financial abbarations like DoD, DMD or BB just can't fall whatever their devs will do. That's just my opinion ofc. Time will verify it. Future on Patreon surely dosn't look good for them

Yes I agree the guys that are already big enough won't lose much. But it's not healthy for the market when only super big developers exist. And it actually makes it hard for other people to also make it big, as even if most of their players are causal, dedicated fans are the ones who made noise and popularized it in the first place.
I don't think everything will be ok just because half a dozen won't be that affected.

And also, the real problem with Patreon is that they can change the rules again whenever they want and make it harder and harder for people to make adult content at all.

 

[MegaV]

Okay so Patreon is hardening up its rules even further regarding adult content, which is bad news for the developers here. One thing on all of this that has been bugging me recently is some laws I read up on while in college, which is kinda interesting in this case (I'm trying hard to find these laws right now but its like a needle in a haystack). The laws I'm looking at is 1) The obscenity laws that exist in most western countries only apply to real life (audio, video, movies and television) persons and does not in any way include the medium of animation (not sure myself if you can class the new 3D arts as animations here), and the majority (excluding depictions of minors in sexual scenarios) of these obscenity laws do not apply to animation. 2) As these development projects are definitely art forms in themselves then I'm also looking into freedom of expression laws in different countries, as stated above some of these projects should be protected under these basic laws (again with the exception of minors), like incest and stuff the actual laws in place only criminalise real people, not computer generated or hand drawn depictions of art.

There is a few laws that could help here and if the devs could call Patreon on these, then chances are they could back down, especially if their policies violate the freedom of expression laws.

Anyway, I'm still looking for these texts and will update as soon as I have an answer.

 

[kzk0987]

Okay so Patreon is hardening up its rules even further regarding adult content, which is bad news for the developers here. One thing on all of this that has been bugging me recently is some laws I read up on while in college, which is kinda interesting in this case (I'm trying hard to find these laws right now but its like a needle in a haystack). The laws I'm looking at is 1) The obscenity laws that exist in most western countries only apply to real life (audio, video, movies and television) persons and does not in any way include the medium of animation (not sure myself if you can class the new 3D arts as animations here), and the majority (excluding depictions of minors in sexual scenarios) of these obscenity laws do not apply to animation. 2) As these development projects are definitely art forms in themselves then I'm also looking into freedom of expression laws in different countries, as stated above some of these projects should be protected under these basic laws (again with the exception of minors), like incest and stuff the actual laws in place only criminalise real people, not computer generated or hand drawn depictions of art.

There is a few laws that could help here and if the devs could call Patreon on these, then chances are they could back down, especially if their policies violate the freedom of expression laws.
d
Anyway, I'm still looking for these texts and will update as soon as I have an answer.

The problem is that Patreon can put whatever rules they want in place and their users can either adequate or leave. Fighting them legally would be an uphill battle and most certainly result in Patreon's win.
You are right about the laws, and if someone where to sue the devs on one of those allegations, they would probably be able to fight it off no problem. The problem lies with the fact the company the devs are subscribed to and accepted to follow regulations from, changed their regulations. They have no legal grounds to complain because it's a service they can leave at any time, not their employer.

 

[MegaV]

The problem is that Patreon can put whatever rules they want in place and their users can either adequate or leave. Fighting them legally would be an uphill battle and most certainly result in Patreon's win.
You are right about the laws, and if someone where to sue the devs on one of those allegations, they would probably be able to fight it off no problem. The problem lies with the fact the company the devs are subscribed to and accepted to follow regulations from, changed their regulations. They have no legal grounds to complain because it's a service they can leave at any time, not their employer.

Apparently not if their policies in any way violate the rights of "freedom of expression" which is a basic human right, and Patreon would have to cave in under risk of violating a developers human rights. Obviously this varies from country to country, anyone know the country where Patreon is based??

 

[kzk0987]

Apparently not if their policies in any way violate the rights of "freedom of expression" which is a basic human right, and Patreon would have to cave in under risk of violating a developers human rights. Obviously this varies from country to country, anyone know the country where Patreon is based??

It's in the united states I think.
But the problem in this situation is that the user has agreed with complying to Patreon rules. They are not having their rights violated, because Patreon doesn't need to be ok with anything the dev wants to make, and they agreed to this when they signed up.

Also, there's the human factor. Few judges would want to be seen as someone who decided in favor of someone's right to make incest rape porn while talking about freedom of expression and human rights. That is potentially carreer-ending, especially since, from what I understand, american judges in the lower courts are elected.

 

[Studio Errilhl]

Okay so Patreon is hardening up its rules even further regarding adult content, which is bad news for the developers here. One thing on all of this that has been bugging me recently is some laws I read up on while in college, which is kinda interesting in this case (I'm trying hard to find these laws right now but its like a needle in a haystack). The laws I'm looking at is 1) The obscenity laws that exist in most western countries only apply to real life (audio, video, movies and television) persons and does not in any way include the medium of animation (not sure myself if you can class the new 3D arts as animations here), and the majority (excluding depictions of minors in sexual scenarios) of these obscenity laws do not apply to animation. 2) As these development projects are definitely art forms in themselves then I'm also looking into freedom of expression laws in different countries, as stated above some of these projects should be protected under these basic laws (again with the exception of minors), like incest and stuff the actual laws in place only criminalise real people, not computer generated or hand drawn depictions of art.

There is a few laws that could help here and if the devs could call Patreon on these, then chances are they could back down, especially if their policies violate the freedom of expression laws.

Anyway, I'm still looking for these texts and will update as soon as I have an answer.

Most likely not. Private companies are not bound by freedom of expression-laws, AFAIK. Those are meant to protect private citizens from government interference and abuse, and Patreon is free to censor whatever content they want.

 

[boingo]

i swear...it feels like someone really has some bad issues and now they are implementing this crap SOOOOOOOOO bad. like holy crap man chill.

can someone just....

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and then tell them...

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[muttdoggy]

One thing I can think of is to scour the Patreon TOS for anything regarding outside arbitration. If they don't prohibit it or otherwise prevent it, arbitration is an option. That can force Patreon to seek a middle road. If the Developer has already complied and doesn't like the new push to alter their creative content, they could try to find favor with the arbiter saying they have been cooperating and they feel that this is a witch hunt brought on by an individual.

 

[DSSAlex]

Patreon is an American company. In general America tends to have more permissive free speech laws than other western countries, to be honest. In much of Europe open race supremacist speech is blanket banned while absolutely legal in America. Obscenity is indeed the legal construct used to prosecute most illicit content. Mostly the government only seems to go after simulated **********, the most notable example of this being their prosecution of Max Hardcore. A few years before that a guy named Mike Diana was prosecuted on a local level for some pretty gross zines/minicomics. IIRC his "Boiled Angel" had some sexual violence peppered in too, though I've never managed to get my hands on a copy.

Basically, in America a work can be obscene if it depicts sexual activity in a prurient and offensive manner and it's devoid of artistic, literary, scientific or political value. Technically this is all balanced on whether a community would find it offensive, but that's kind out the window in the internet age. Basically that means artistic works where the sole focus is on providing sexual gratification can be regulated.

In general prosecutions are rare nowadays. Things like "Howl" by Allen Ginsburg or "Naked Lunch" by William S. Burroughs were the target of a ton of lawsuits in the 50's and 60's. They're largely the reason we have even semi-firm rules on what qualifies as legally obscene.

The thing is Patreon can pick and choose what they want to publish on their platform. This has nothing to do with obscenity. They are exercising their right to free speech by restricting what content can be available on their platform. There's a few reasons they would want to do this; optics, PR, legitimacy or they I guess they could fear running afoul of obscenity (probably not).

The real problem is the ecosystem and community of adult games has grown out and around Patreon. I'd rather somebody else step up and create a new ecosystem for adult games but even if it materializes it would face systemic problems. The inertia surrounding Patreon is huge but at least it doesn't keep the same kind of contractual stranglehold Amazon holds on it's Kindle author's throats. Thus far there haven't been any serious competitors to Patreon but we'll see.

 

[boingo]

One thing I can think of is to scour the Patreon TOS for anything regarding outside arbitration. If they don't prohibit it or otherwise prevent it, arbitration is an option. That can force Patreon to seek a middle road. If the Developer has already complied and doesn't like the new push to alter their creative content, they could try to find favor with the arbiter saying they have been cooperating and they feel that this is a witch hunt brought on by an individual.

i love your mod monicker just have to point that out...

 

[smnb]

Try a "discrimination approach", e.g. "not allowing creators of incest games to use Patreon is like not allowing black people to use a bus". Of course it's a bluff, because making incest games is a decision, while being black is not, so you'll probably need to use something like "people wearing blue jeans" instead, and the message will lose the power. Also Patreon is not exactly public in a same sense as bus, although it depends...

But scratch that all, it's pretty clear - their server, their rules. And they don't like porn, so take a hint and go elsewhere. You can hide, you can fight, but it's no good, they have the last say if you'll have an account or not. I hate them very much for doing this, but it's their right...

 

[rs6.igg.biz]

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This page has a list of other crowd-funding sites. I haven't looked at any of them so you guys will have to read up on them yourselves. It's a pretty decently sized list so maybe there's something in there for us. That's about all I got.

Also here are some news about Patreon Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines:

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