Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

[Ignazzio]

From a marketing standpoint, however, patreon's entire adult lineup is essentially secret. The games are removed from the search feature, and even if they weren't patreon's public image is that of a basic content creator funding platform. They aren't marketing the porn. No, it's not about marketing, it's about the higher risk involved in successfully processing payments from such extreme fetishes. That's why its paypal. The types of people that would be so shocked to find out a platform that does allow pornography also allowed taboo content are so miniscule in our society that they don't have the voice to kill the content outright, without also killing porn. It makes sense only in the guise of high risk. And in that, I'd like to see some evidence to support the idea that incest, rape, and bestiality are such a significantly higher risk as to be disallowed outright.

Paypal is a reason and that's for sure but in my opinion just a minor one. There is no such thing as a secret distribution. If there was Steam would distribute porn as well. When all porn links lead to one site it gains its reputation. With huge success of a few first titles that happened to be incest Patreon has been flooded by such games. Regardless of popularity of incest Patreon is extremaly non-representative as I'm sure it's more than 90% of its games and none fetish is as popular. With such number basically anyone who will find anything porn-related connected with Patreon will find incest game and that's terrible for their reputation. You can easily defend some relatively tame vanilla games but whole adult section flooded with extreme content is definitely something I wouldn't wish for as a Patreon CEO. Devs overdid that a lot I guess

 

[HiEv]

It's hard to argue that incest is highly popular amongst gamers that play erotic games. Such people are not even close to being a mainstream minority but their number is high enough to attract attention of everyone in a porn business. But I think you're wrong about popularity of incest @DarthSeduction . It's definitely one of the most popular fetishes on the internet but I doubt it's even close to rape.

That's your personal opinion, but where's your objective evidence supporting that opinion?

While rape roleplay may be a popular fetish in real life, incest appears to be more popular than rape in fiction. Here's yet another example proving this point using objective data. If you look at the number of stories in different categories at

You must be registered to see the links

you'll see that the top 10 (out of 32 categories) are:

1. Erotic Couplings - 52,615 stories
2. Incest/Taboo - 41,825 stories
   
3. BDSM - 32,222 stories
4. Loving Wives - 29,450 stories
   
5. NonConsent/Reluctance - 22,129 stories
6. Group Sex - 22,122 stories
7. Exhibitionist & Voyeur - 18,599 stories
8. Gay Male - 17,796 stories
9. Romance - 16,105 stories
10. Sci-Fi & Fantasy - 15,876 stories

So, "Incest/Taboo" is second only to vanilla sex, and has more than double the number of stories of 26 of the 32 categories there. Meanwhile, NonConsent/Reluctance has only a bit over half as many stories as there are in the Incest/Taboo category.

Considering this and the "

You must be registered to see the links

" shown earlier in this thread, the incest genre is pretty popular any way you slice it. Even more popular than the rape genre, at least in the English speaking parts of the world.

 

[Ignazzio]

That's your personal opinion, but where is your objective evidence supporting that opinion?

While rape roleplay may be a popular fetish in real life, incest appears to be more popular than rape in fiction. Here's yet another example proving this point using objective data. If you look at the number of stories in different categories at

You must be registered to see the links

you'll see that the top 10 (out of 32 categories) are:

1. Erotic Couplings - 52,615 stories
2. Incest/Taboo - 41,825 stories
   
3. BDSM - 32,222 stories
4. Loving Wives - 29,450 stories
   
5. NonConsent/Reluctance - 22,129 stories
6. Group Sex - 22,122 stories
7. Exhibitionist & Voyeur - 18,599 stories
8. Gay Male - 17,796 stories
9. Romance - 16,105 stories
10. Sci-Fi & Fantasy - 15,876 stories

So, "Incest/Taboo" is second only to vanilla sex, and has more than double the number of stories of 26 of the 32 categories there. Meanwhile, NonConsent/Reluctance has only a bit over half as many stories as there are in the Incest/Taboo category.

Considering this and the "

You must be registered to see the links

" shown earlier in this thread, the incest genre is pretty popular any way you slice it. Even more popular than the rape genre, at least in the English speaking parts of the world.

Ofc it's more popular in western society. I was talking about Asia: mostly Japan and China. These players aren't present on a western, english-speaking sites and we like it or not there is more of them. If you're looking for a factual data my opinion is based on my experience with Japanese market which I observe for years as a person who can play games in Japanese. Incest is popular everywhere as an extreme fetish but rape is just much stronger there. They have almost no-restrictions when it comes to their content and it still dominates. I don't wish to diss incest or whatever but to point the fact that there are other extreme fetishes on a same or even greater level of popularity as incest. English-speaking people are rich and therefore much more active on the internet but to be honest Asia will most likely dominate our markets.

 

[xןʞ]

You seem to underestimate how popular incest porn is in Japan as well.

Legit 50-60% of hentai manga are incest based or have incest elements in them.

A lot of the major AV houses make their living on incest plots.(whats up Rocket, DANDY, Art Body, yadda yadda yadda)

Hell if anything incest roleplay became popular in the west because they realized how big it was in Japan's AV market.

Just because the games are mostly rape games doesn't mean most of the actual porn videos and stuff are.

 

[DarthSeduction]

but in my opinion

Ding!

When all porn links lead to one site it gains its reputation. With huge success of a few first titles that happened to be incest Patreon has been flooded by such games.

Just googled my game, even when I added the word adult game I only found 4 links on googles first page that were relevant and none of them actually took us to our patreon page. So, I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from, but it's flawed.

Regardless of popularity of incest Patreon is extremaly non-representative as I'm sure it's more than 90% of its games and none fetish is as popular.

You're sure, in spite of the orgy of evidence to the contrary on this website. Yes, the most popular games are incest, but there is plenty of non incest content, far too much for your hyperbolic number to be accurate.

With such number basically anyone who will find anything porn-related connected with Patreon will find incest game and that's terrible for their reputation.

So this statement is based on not one but two flawed assumptions. You aren't going to stumble upon adult games on Patreon. If you do, you out of personal interest in adult games, stumbled upon adult games on patreon. You in this scenario aren't the type of person to start an anti incest crusade. And while its likely they'll land on one of the more popular incest titles, again, they have to have made the choice to find that title in the first place because you can't just google it, so you had to find a place like this or a r/lewdgames or fenoxo(popular games site that isn't incest based) or SVS etc.

(You in this being the person apparently stumbling on patreon incest games.)

You can easily defend some relatively tame vanilla games but whole adult section flooded with extreme content is definitely something I wouldn't wish for as a Patreon CEO. Devs overdid that a lot I guess

Again, this entire statment is based on your opinion and a number of flawed assumptions about how the market and society at large will react to porn having taboo content. Is incest everyones kink? No. But having a sister complex or a mommy or daddy kink are so commonplace that they're all over our culture. People aren't as opposed to incest as you seem to think, at least not in a fictional context. Its a different story when you get into actual people actually committing incest, then your argument might hold water, but there's no evidence to support this implied anti incest crusade that you're somehow saying must exist. Patreon had a scare in '16. After that they assured creators they had no intention of censoring them. That is their choice before the interference of Paypal, who could affect their bottom line, as losing them would lose them content providers.

Japan and China. These players aren't present on a western, english-speaking sites and we like it or not there is more of them

So, your argument that incest isn't mainstream in this market is based on you ignoring this market and paying all your attention to the japanese market, for which incest is also a popular fetish, I might add, though maybe not as popular as noncon.

 

[Notretsam]

That's your personal opinion, but where's your objective evidence supporting that opinion?

While rape roleplay may be a popular fetish in real life, incest appears to be more popular than rape in fiction. Here's yet another example proving this point using objective data. If you look at the number of stories in different categories at

You must be registered to see the links

you'll see that the top 10 (out of 32 categories) are:

1. Erotic Couplings - 52,615 stories
2. Incest/Taboo - 41,825 stories
   
3. BDSM - 32,222 stories
4. Loving Wives - 29,450 stories
   
5. NonConsent/Reluctance - 22,129 stories
6. Group Sex - 22,122 stories
7. Exhibitionist & Voyeur - 18,599 stories
8. Gay Male - 17,796 stories
9. Romance - 16,105 stories
10. Sci-Fi & Fantasy - 15,876 stories

So, "Incest/Taboo" is second only to vanilla sex, and has more than double the number of stories of 26 of the 32 categories there. Meanwhile, NonConsent/Reluctance has only a bit over half as many stories as there are in the Incest/Taboo category.

Considering this and the "

You must be registered to see the links

" shown earlier in this thread, the incest genre is pretty popular any way you slice it. Even more popular than the rape genre, at least in the English speaking parts of the world.

that is a better evidence than what you last showed as evidence in reply to me.

however, it has Incest/Taboo, why taboo?

taboo is not just Incest I would have thought, so odd it has taboo listed with incest.

 

[Ignazzio]

Ding!

Everything I say is just my opinion. The same goes for you.

You're sure, in spite of the orgy of evidence to the contrary on this website. Yes, the most popular games are incest, but there is plenty of non incest content, far too much for your hyperbolic number to be accurate.

Man, I don't want to count but I would be highly surprised if it's not at least 80% of our games here that have incest elements. You're long enough here to know that and I'm too lazy to actually spend my time on this matter. If you wish to diss this fact that's fine. Comparisons with Japanese market are on point as it's the only real market with thousands of porn games and barely any restriction. No fetish can dominate with its popularity all others - it's just impossible. It's Patreon's model and few succesful first games that made this dominance so obvious. Incest is popular and would be probably the strongest fetish on our market but I can't see how anyone wish to defend theory that it's popular enough to completely dominate every other. I know you'll pick on my lack of actual data so you can check number of patrons of incest creators. First generation of games was incredible succesful, second was mostly succesful but right now incest creators can barely reach 2-3k as market is overflooded. It happens in a mainstream gaming market (most of moba types were failures as market was overflooded.)

So this statement is based on not one but two flawed assumptions. You aren't going to stumble upon adult games on Patreon. If you do, you out of personal interest in adult games, stumbled upon adult games on patreon. You in this scenario aren't the type of person to start an anti incest crusade. And while its likely they'll land on one of the more popular incest titles, again, they have to have made the choice to find that title in the first place because you can't just google it, so you had to find a place like this or a r/lewdgames or fenoxo(popular games site that isn't incest based) or SVS etc.

(You in this being the person apparently stumbling on patreon incest games.)

You don't have to stumble on anything to gain information about it. Reputation doesn't work like that. Media and words do their work and Patreon is big enough for being covered by media. I've never seen camwhore's patreon site but I know there is a ton of them there. And you can easily find links to Patreon even if you're not looking for them. Most people aren't so invested in porn to have their fetishes but porn is something every guy is looking for at some point. Write erotic games out of curiosity and some links will lead you to Patreon.

Again, this entire statment is based on your opinion and a number of flawed assumptions about how the market and society at large will react to porn having taboo content. Is incest everyones kink? No. But having a sister complex or a mommy or daddy kink are so commonplace that they're all over our culture. People aren't as opposed to incest as you seem to think, at least not in a fictional context. Its a different story when you get into actual people actually committing incest, then your argument might hold water, but there's no evidence to support this implied anti incest crusade that you're somehow saying must exist. Patreon had a scare in '16. After that they assured creators they had no intention of censoring them. That is their choice before the interference of Paypal, who could affect their bottom line, as losing them would lose them content providers.

I can only disagree and write back your first sentence. Fictional context is fine - rape, incest and every other fetish is allowed there. But in our culture porn is not a fictional context for mainstream. Japan has long tradition of erotic depictions and it's normal for them but on the west we have fixation about porn so we're actively looking for underage porn games to shut them down even tho it logically makes no sense. I remember how vocal and messy was Rapelay release (I've read about it on a mainstream gaming site) on the west and it's really just a typical japanese game. Western people don't consider fictional porn as just a fiction - at least not entirely.

So, your argument that incest isn't mainstream in this market is based on you ignoring this market and paying all your attention to the japanese market, for which incest is also a popular fetish, I might add, though maybe not as popular as noncon.

As I said previously it was just to prove my point that it's not the only extreme fetish with huge popularity. Ofc it's popular. Our market isn't mainstream so incest is not mainstream as well - that's it. Tho I admit I have some troubles to call 1 site with a couple of finished games a market.
I guess we won't agree on that matter. I don't wish to attack incest or say it's not popular. It is. My opinion is that it has no real place in mainstream and it's (similiar like other extremes) terrible for any company's reputation. I didn't expect anyone to defend theory that our market isn't overflooded with it as it's mentioned in almost any thread with it and numbers are quite convincing but it's pointless to throw words at each other if we can't agree on it.

 

[Notretsam]

Everything I say is just my opinion. The same goes for you.

said same thing to darthseduction and got blocked and told I was being ignorant, hope you have better luck talking with him than I did

I guess we won't agree on that matter. I don't wish to attack incest or say it's not popular. It is. My opinion is that it has no real place in mainstream and it's (similiar like other extremes) terrible for any company's reputation. I didn't expect anyone to defend theory that our market isn't overflooded with it as it's mentioned in almost any thread with it and numbers are quite convincing but it's pointless to throw words at each other if we can't agree on it.

*terrible for any company's reputation.* <<< that part pretty much covers what I been saying, the same reason why people like incest, is the same reason why it gets banned.

Incest is popular in some places for sure, but most people in the world frown upon it, so its always risky for a company or a game developer to risk there reputation by making games with incest.

That is why I said that there a bigger market for non incest games, there always going to be a wider audience for non incest than incest. however if you break that audience down into specific groups/forums, then yes incest is more likely to be more popular in "some areas". like this forum for example, as Ignazzio also stated, most of the games listed in popular games do have elements of incest.

 

[Ignazzio]

said same thing to darthseduction and got blocked and told I was being ignorant, hope you have better luck talking with him than I did

It's a forum and there is no point in being emotional over anything. It's all about our opinions and we all can be wrong. I can be wrong and my opinion has the same value as others. That's just how dialogue works.

*terrible for any company's reputation.* <<< that part pretty much covers what I been saying, the same reason why people like incest, is the same reason why it gets banned.

Incest is popular in some places for sure, but most people in the world frown upon it, so its always risky for a company or a game developer to risk there reputation by making games with incest.

That is why I said that there a bigger market for non incest games, there always going to be a wider audience for non incest than incest. however if you break that audience down into specific groups/forums, then yes incest is more likely to be more popular in "some areas". like this forum for example, as Ignazzio also stated, most of the games listed in popular games do have elements of incest.

I agree with first part but second part is difficult. I won't say non-incest games would be more popular than incest if our market was larger just like japanese as people who play these games tend to look for extremes. I think you're right - most japanese games are vanilla love stories - but this kind of market is really tricky so it's hard to predict anything. Rape is extremaly popular there, other fetishes like incest are also popular so it's rather unpredictable. I doubt we will know it at all as our society is really bad when it comes to reception of fictional porn and real market might never start to exist. I hope I'm wrong tho

 

[Notretsam]

It's a forum and there is no point in being emotional over anything. It's all about our opinions and we all can be wrong. I can be wrong and my opinion has the same value as others. That's just how dialogue works.

agreed, no 2 people are going agree all the time, sadly "some others" in this thread need to learn that.

I agree with first part but second part is difficult. I won't say non-incest games would be more popular than incest if our market was larger just like japanese as people who play these games tend to look for extremes. I think you're right - most japanese games are vanilla love stories - but this kind of market is really tricky so it's hard to predict anything. Rape is extremaly popular there, other fetishes like incest are also popular so it's rather unpredictable. I doubt we will know it at all as our society is really bad when it comes to reception of fictional porn and real market might never start to exist. I hope I'm wrong tho

its safe to say there no real guarantee , everything is just opinion, I just think that in general more people will be against incest than for it, so therefore non incest games would have a bigger market.

end of day, if developers spend time to change there games to match new patreon rules, like summertime saga appear to be doing, I really do not think that developers will lose money. If anything, I think they will make more with no incest.

guess time will tell for sure, am so interested to see the next summertime saga release, see if they have removed incest completely, and if so, how the game does afterwards.

 

[Ignazzio]

its safe to say there no real guarantee , everything is just opinion, I just think that in general more people will be against incest than for it, so therefore non incest games would have a bigger market.

end of day, if developers spend time to change there games to match new patreon rules, like summertime saga appear to be doing, I really do not think that developers will lose money. If anything, I think they will make more with no incest.

guess time will tell for sure, am so interested to see the next summertime saga release, see if they have removed incest completely, and if so, how the game does afterwards.

I think there are other mechanisms that work with our games that prevent them from losing attention. Real measure would be some huge, open, non-restrictive market to properly judge that. We won't get that sadly. I also doubt SS or most of the other creators will lose much with removal of incest. But I think it's a harmful for these games and developers even tho I don't really like it myself. Censorship is terrible for any market

 

[Notretsam]

I think there are other mechanisms that work with our games that prevent them from losing attention. Real measure would be some huge, open, non-restrictive market to properly judge that. We won't get that sadly. I also doubt SS or most of the other creators will lose much with removal of incest. But I think it's a harmful for these games and developers even tho I don't really like it myself. Censorship is terrible for any market

I agree that censorship is bad for any market, but no-one should be surprised that incest is being censored, its always been one of the most despised taboos.

 

[ASLPro3D]

As a creator on Patreon, I don't have a problem with Patreon looking to be inclusive and supportive to a community of individuals who have, for a long time, been ostracized and treated with disgust and ridicule... they deserve support and the same kindness that everyone else is awarded in life.

Unlike "incest", homosexuality isn't as taboo as it had once been considered as while I was growing up. I still remember a time when even being homosexual while was bad, still wasn't as bad as being born black...

..."incest", however, is still steeped in scorn, distaste and buried under a stigma that traces back hundreds of years... and it is a topic on the watch list of credit card companies to deny service to those that support that subject.

As a straight guy who has many friends who are homosexual or in a state of transition, I support Patreon's desire to be inclusive to a population of individuals who have fought long and hard to have a place in a world that has done everything it could to keep them from being viewed as normal human beings.

 

[Delmach]

If im not horribly mistaken, there are still plenty of countries where homosexuality is indeed banned/illegal. And go back a few decades and there were plenty more.

And about incest, well theres really plenty of ways countries handle that. From saying step relationships are ok, or just saying vaginal penetration is forbidden, anything else is fine.

But the main fact about the incest theme is in the end, always the genetic disorders through inbreeding.

Now, how can one say its fair that any two people with a genetic disease can produce offspring, which does indeed have more proven risk of having an "unwanted" effect on the children. While at the same time prohibit family members from having sexual intercourse that, even if it would spawn offspring, has less risk of a disorder (in the first generation). And maybe those family members did not even want to produce offspring. For me its nonsense, like many human views/laws that are only very slightly in the past.

 

[redknight00]

Pretty wrong, look up countries where its illegal. Some even have death penalty for same sex relationships.

People tend to forget that the world is very divided, and we as a human species are really not as refined/far developed as we might want to think.

And Patreon/Paypal are private corporations based on places where it's legal, they don't need to cater to every place, only to the people they want to reach.

 

[Rando Civ]

This whole "debate" is idiotic as hell.

 

[smnb]

... and it is a topic on the watch list of credit card companies to deny service to those that support that subject.

Then kingdom for a credit card company without morals and interested solely in money! All those conspiracy theories about dark forces running the world, going after money and power, corrupting innocents along the way, wreck the good values of simple men, ... and yet you can't even get paid for an innocent incest game. They are slacking off, lazy bastards.

 

[itsyeboii]

Btw incest has been around for centuries in both humans and animals.

 

[itsyeboii]

Why are people getting salty in this debate? We are just sharing opinions boys.

 

[itsyeboii]

Read his posts.

Not talking about anyone in particular, just overall.