Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread

[DarthSeduction]

This is not an analogous poll to the one that aweriel posted. His poll asked about fetishes in general, while your poll only asks about characters in one game. The results of your poll could come down to which character has a better model or story, and actually say nothing about people's preference for incest, while the poll aweriel cited directly gets at that question.

Sure, there are more votes in your poll, but the number of votes doesn't make it more valid in answering questions for which that poll didn't directly address. The other poll actually asked and answered the question of which fetishes people preferred, which makes it a far better indicator of preference.

Furthermore, the poll you posted has the daughter at a very strong second place, getting more votes than all of the girls in the game combined, other than the first place winner.

I'm sorry, but that poll doesn't counter the claim that incest is popular, and it actually helps disprove that it's unpopular.

To expand on this, having played the game 2 months ago, trying as hard as I could to get the daughter, I can say for sure that Meghan is the better line. The fact that given the hotness of the other characters Meghan and the daughter come out so far on top proves that people like shy awkward girls with great stories, and incest, because there's nothing more or less redeemable about the daughter's line than any of the others. If anything it was simply more frustrating as it was the most repetitive line.

that is your opinion, which you are entitled to, same as am entitled to mine.

Ok, I don't know how to get you to understand, but I based all of everything I said on evidence. I'm not talking about my personal feelings on incest, I'm talking about how incest is represented by the market. The market data supports my assetion. That makes what I've said fact. An opinion is a personal believe, it requires nothing more than faith. A fact is observable. You yourself have observed exactly what I've said multiple times throughout this thread. However, you refuse to understand how market economics work, and instead relegate anything you don't understand to opinion.

In closing, as long as you continue to refuse to accept knowledge that disputes your opinion, you are choosing to remain ignorant. Do you like being ignorant? Do you like when someone reads what you say and laughs because you're so willfully ignoring the data? If not, I suggest you change. If so, continue in ignorance. If your response to this is anything other than, "you know what, you're right, I've been choosing not to listen to reason." I'll just block you. So choose now, be willing to learn, and change, or continue in ignorance, and become irrelevant.

 

[aweriel]

that is your opinion, which you are entitled to, same as am entitled to mine.

Ok, we are incest forum ( I can life with, I like incest).
MrDots before and after DmD (although Melody), Ppl voting selves money



vox populi - vox Dei

 

[Notretsam]

Ok, I don't know how to get you to understand, but I based all of everything I said on evidence. I'm not talking about my personal feelings on incest, I'm talking about how incest is represented by the market. The market data supports my assetion. That makes what I've said fact. An opinion is a personal believe, it requires nothing more than faith. A fact is observable. You yourself have observed exactly what I've said multiple times throughout this thread. However, you refuse to understand how market economics work, and instead relegate anything you don't understand to opinion.

In closing, as long as you continue to refuse to accept knowledge that disputes your opinion, you are choosing to remain ignorant. Do you like being ignorant? Do you like when someone reads what you say and laughs because you're so willfully ignoring the data? If not, I suggest you change. If so, continue in ignorance. If your response to this is anything other than, "you know what, you're right, I've been choosing not to listen to reason." I'll just block you. So choose now, be willing to learn, and change, or continue in ignorance, and become irrelevant.

if you think for one second that there is more people in this world that support incest over people that don't, then you are the one that is being ignorant.

I already stated my opinion, no point in me repeating myself.

 

[DarthSeduction]

if you think for one second that there is more people in this world that support incest over people that don't, then you are the one that is being ignorant.

Because you still miss the point I'll give you one more chance.

Incest - will almost definitely look into

BDSM - not interested

Female Protag (corruption) - will play

Female Protag (molestation) - won't play

Teacher/student - might play

MILF - not interested

Harem - might play

Trainer - not interested

Corruption - low interest

Rape - won't play

Voyeurism - won't play

Monster - probably won't play (could be a minor fetish in a larger game)

Shota - probably won't play (could be convinced if someone I trust liked it)

Loli - might play

Meet & Fuck - won't play

Romance - might play

Futa - probably will play

NTR - probably won't play (unless its a stretch of the tag, for instance romantic rivalry or polyamory game)

Now, I don't expect anyone's list to be identical to mine, but it illustrates my point. There is no genre of game that is a catch all. It doesn't matter what genre your game is, there will be a large group of people who aren't interested in your game, and as you see, there are plenty that I'm mildly interested in, but not guaranteed to play.

Incest doesn't have to be popular with the majority of humanity. It just has to be popular enough that its more popular than the rest of the kinks. Even if we were to assign an exact equal percentage value to every single fetish the point would still stand, that changing to another genre would not be a guarantee of garnering more interest. However, the data, supported on all media platforms, shows that incest is exceedingly popular. People have voted with their dollars and their time to put all those incest games in the most popular section.

So yes, you could still have an industry without incest, however, taking incest in particular away won't cause a developer to do better, because incest has already proven to have a larger share of the market value. You can argue that the majority of people don't like incest all you want, the fact of the matter is incest is liked by enough people that it makes more money than any other genre. Your entire argument is based on this flawed view of what majority means in relation to a group of more than two options. Incest doesn't need to be 75% or 50%. It can be 10%, as long as the rest of the genre are less than 10% incest will have the greatest market value.

 

[Notretsam]

Because you still miss the point I'll give you one more chance.

Incest - will almost definitely look into

BDSM - not interested

Female Protag (corruption) - will play

Female Protag (molestation) - won't play

Teacher/student - might play

MILF - not interested

Harem - might play

Trainer - not interested

Corruption - low interest

Rape - won't play

Voyeurism - won't play

Monster - probably won't play (could be a minor fetish in a larger game)

Shota - probably won't play (could be convinced if someone I trust liked it)

Loli - might play

Meet & Fuck - won't play

Romance - might play

Futa - probably will play

NTR - probably won't play (unless its a stretch of the tag, for instance romantic rivalry or polyamory game)

Now, I don't expect anyone's list to be identical to mine, but it illustrates my point. There is no genre of game that is a catch all. It doesn't matter what genre your game is, there will be a large group of people who aren't interested in your game, and as you see, there are plenty that I'm mildly interested in, but not guaranteed to play.

Incest doesn't have to be popular with the majority of humanity. It just has to be popular enough that its more popular than the rest of the kinks. Even if we were to assign an exact equal percentage value to every single fetish the point would still stand, that changing to another genre would not be a guarantee of garnering more interest. However, the data, supported on all media platforms, shows that incest is exceedingly popular. People have voted with their dollars and their time to put all those incest games in the most popular section.

So yes, you could still have an industry without incest, however, taking incest in particular away won't cause a developer to do better, because incest has already proven to have a larger share of the market value. You can argue that the majority of people don't like incest all you want, the fact of the matter is incest is liked by enough people that it makes more money than any other genre. Your entire argument is based on this flawed view of what majority means in relation to a group of more than two options. Incest doesn't need to be 75% or 50%. It can be 10%, as long as the rest of the genre are less than 10% incest will have the greatest market value.

you can try and dictate to me all you want, my answer is always the same to you from now on, that is your opinion

 

[DarthSeduction]

you can try and dictate to me all you want, my answer is always the same to you from now on, that is your opinion

I was trying to teach you, but it seems you prefer ignorance, enjoy your block.

 

[Ark Thompson]

Over all those posts I retained only one thing: Step is considered incest? I mean, "normal dictionnary" probably does, but do you guys do to? Incest is already close to vanilla stuff in itself, if people are not blood-related, how can you find that taboo anymore since it's just a relationship between two non blood-related people? (Keep in mind that I'm not talking about situations where the family has been reunited at the very beginning of some of their member's life, but more the case where there's a re-marriage and most family members are adults or close to it)

 

[Notretsam]

Ok, we are incest forum ( I can life with, I like incest).
MrDots before and after DmD (although Melody), Ppl voting selves money

View attachment 87926

vox populi - vox Dei

No idea why you posting that, my quote you linked was a reply to darthseduction and not you, below was my reply to you.

lol that was lame, you just showed a poll that has higher percentage voting for incest , its not a incest forum but most people here support it.

 

[Notretsam]

I was trying to teach you, but it seems you prefer ignorance, enjoy your block.

what you consider ignorance, I consider my opinion which differs from you

 

[Notretsam]

Over all those posts I retained only one thing: Step is considered incest? I mean, "normal dictionnary" probably does, but do you guys do to? Incest is already close to vanilla stuff in itself, if people are not blood-related, how can you find that taboo anymore since it's just a relationship between two non blood-related people? (Keep in mind that I'm not talking about situations where the family has been reunited at the very beginning of some of their member's life, but more the case where there's a re-marriage and most family members are adults or close to it)

I agree, I stated that step is not incest, but was told I was wrong.

if your parents get divorced when you 19, then your father remarries when you 22. up until your father remarried, you could have sex with the woman he remarried without it being a problem, so its same afterwards.

yet again, this is my opinion but am most likely being ignorant again, as apparently am not allowed to have my own opinion based on facts from my own experience.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Over all those posts I retained only one thing: Step is considered incest? I mean, "normal dictionnary" probably does, but do you guys do to? Incest is already close to vanilla stuff in itself, if people are not blood-related, how can you find that taboo anymore since it's just a relationship between two non blood-related people? (Keep in mind that I'm not talking about situations where the family has been reunited at the very beginning of some of their member's life, but more the case where there's a re-marriage and most family members are adults or close to it)

Patreon does. And lets take a look at it seriously, if a step father or mother attempts to seduce their step daughter the only reason this is less fucked up than incest is because there's a 1.5% lower chance of birth defects as a result of their coupling. The power dynamics of a parent fucking their child is still there. Even with step siblings there's the possibility of the manipulation of their definition of love and the proper expression of. And that is the real reason the world is against incest. 1.5% is a lower addition to the chances of birth defects than alcohol, cigarettes, or being a woman over 35. In fact, its merely twice the 1.5% latent chance. The real problem that society has with incest isn't the children, its the question of consent.

 

[Ark Thompson]

Patreon does. And lets take a look at it seriously, if a step father or mother attempts to seduce their step daughter the only reason this is less fucked up than incest is because there's a 1.5% lower chance of birth defects as a result of their coupling. The power dynamics of a parent fucking their child is still there. Even with step siblings there's the possibility of the manipulation of their definition of love and the proper expression of. And that is the real reason the world is against incest. 1.5% is a lower addition to the chances of birth defects than alcohol, cigarettes, or being a woman over 35. In fact, its merely twice the 1.5% latent chance. The real problem that society has with incest isn't the children, its the question of consent.

No, wait, I'm not talking reality-wise, I'm talking fantasy-wise. I may have worded it wrong ^^' My question was more "Since you play a game to see fantasy stuff why would you 'lower' a fetish's potential (aka putting only steps instead of really blood-related people)". I can understand in some cases where the story really needs to have steps more than actual bonds, but overall, isn't it more interesting to have the most taboo thing right off the bat? To me it's like liking BDSM but saying "I won't do you anything more than tying your hands".

The reason I'm asking this is because I feel (though I'm maybe wrong) that there are more step stuff than actual blood-related stuff on the market (also, bear with me please, I mainly follow the Japanese market so I'm less aware of what's available on the west).

 

[DarthSeduction]

No, wait, I'm not talking reality-wise, I'm talking fantasy-wise. I may have worded it wrong ^^' My question was more "Since you play a game to see fantasy stuff why would you 'lower' a fetish's potential (aka putting only steps instead of really blood-related people)". I can understand in some cases where the story really needs to have steps more than actual bonds, but overall, isn't it more interesting to have the most taboo thing right off the bat? To me it's like liking BDSM but saying "I won't do you anything more than tying your hands".

The reason I'm asking this is because I feel (though I'm maybe wrong) that there are more step stuff than actual blood-related stuff on the market (also, bear with me please, I mainly follow the Japanese market so I'm less aware of what's available on the west).

Well, I don't play many japanese VN though I've never had an issue with finding full on incest when I have. Specifically from japan, I read a lot of incest manga, so I've never heard of this being a problem, however, it could be, like with the western market, that some companies are trying to put a kibosh on blood incest for a poorly executed market value assumption. In the west, for instance, there's plenty of porn, from games, to comics, to literature that have real incest content, but these are largely indie projects. Real porn ran into the financial sector much earlier, and as a result almost all real porn incest is step related.

Personally I get off on the taboo in general. Blood relation works better, but I can get a similar kink from childhood friends, teacher student relations, and roleplay. Childhood friends has to be written correctly though, there has to be a force that would disapprove of their coupling. Teacher student fills almost the exact same power dynamic kink as daddy daughter and mom son, and proper roleplay, like the redhead in Depraved awakening who calls you daddy because she's got daddy issues is hot as fuck.

 

[Delmach]

While I can enjoy something without incest in it, and certainly didnt join this forum because of that particular thing, coming from another forum where it wasnt in anyway as relevant as here, I still openly welcome any addition to a story that adds different "flavors".

And while the latest discussion was nearly all about incest, someone mentioned earlier that they are also against, as they call, it "hard to distinguish from non consensual content", which some might translate into many, many things. So far I did not see or hear any of it being problematic for anyone but the creators, as in, so far only the creators took out the harshest forms of "substances" on their own volition, without anyone actually forcing them to. Basically self censoring to avoid being targeted.

And that, with the addition of more unwanted content, is the main concern for me. The less ingredients you have available, the less variety you can create. Mix in fear/uncertainty of a topic being "safe" enough to include into your work, and you have more self censoring, more of "lets just leave it out". Which, in my opinion, leads to more of the same, more of vanilla.
And thats definitely not something I have fantasy for, to have it sometimes even less spicy than reality. But thats just my outlook on it so far.

Oh and kinda related, with many rendered graphics and people sometimes stating they recognize the character from a different game, I wonder how that would influence the future of content even more. Banned topics and in a few years games where most of the characters might look the same, over and over again. So people coming for the graphic might be bored, and people coming for the story would suffer the same. But bear in mind that this last paragraph is just some speculation of my own, doesnt have to be like that. And hopefully doesnt come to it.

 

[hamlet17]

Maybe the lovers of incest are just more inclined to pay for their fetish than other lovers of adult games, for some reason, which is also an important fact for developers.

 

[smnb]

My question was more "Since you play a game to see fantasy stuff why would you 'lower' a fetish's potential (aka putting only steps instead of really blood-related people)".

The question is, whether incest itself is what attracts people to incest games. And IMHO it's not necessarily the case.

I for one am into it mainly for the forbidden part, and blood-related or not doesn't make much difference. And by forbidden part I don't mean "frowned upon by society", boohoo, who cares about that. I mean the actual immediate danger, e.g. "the parents will kill us if they find out". So as you might suspect, I tend to be dissapointed all the time, because incest games don't have this aspect as much as one could expect. And something like "if mother catches me fucking the sister, she will punish me for that by not fucking me herself" really isn't what I'm after. Or some secret generations-long incest clubs, everyone fucking everyone, no thanks.

I may be wrong, but I think quite a lot of people might have the same view, because incest is just perfect for this kind of forbidden. You don't need to invent any complicated scenarios, just take a regular family, let two members be attracted to each other (father with mother excluded) and you have everything you need. You can have forbidden relationships in other settings, but it's much more complicated.

 

[DarthSeduction]

The question is, whether incest itself is what attracts people to incest games. And IMHO it's not necessarily the case.

I for one am into it mainly for the forbidden part, and blood-related or not doesn't make much difference. And by forbidden part I don't mean "frowned upon by society", boohoo, who cares about that. I mean the actual immediate danger, e.g. "the parents will kill us if they find out". So as you might suspect, I tend to be dissapointed all the time, because incest games don't have this aspect as much as one could expect. And something like "if mother catches me fucking the sister, she will punish me for that by not fucking me herself" really isn't what I'm after. Or some secret generations-long incest clubs, everyone fucking everyone, no thanks.

I may be wrong, but I think quite a lot of people might have the same view, because incest is just perfect for this kind of forbidden. You don't need to invent any complicated scenarios, just take a regular family, let two members be attracted to each other (father with mother excluded) and you have everything you need. You can have forbidden relationships in other settings, but it's much more complicated.

I enjoy my incest harems as much as I do my incest with only one character, the problem usually, is that there are very few siscon games. Plenty of Daddy daughter games, and not many m/s games that are solo m/s. I really can't think of one where the adult children are living at home and hiding something from their parents. The closest I've seen is actually a really terrible example, My summer with Mom and Sis, which does both, but with dad in the picture getting caught is bad. However, its not a story game, its an arcade adventure game. And so as a result there's barely enough substance to make it playable.

So, while I do also get enjoyment from the hidden nature of the story, I think blood relation, or at least the implication that "we shouldn't be doing this, we're related" is all I really need.

 

[smnb]

I really can't think of one where the adult children are living at home and hiding something from their parents.

That's another problem, this forbidden part works much better with younger characters, because there the threat of getting caught it believable. When the siblings are thirty, it loses a lot of potential. It may still be forbidden, but parents as threat are pretty much out. At that point, it's really only for true fans of incest.

 

[Ignazzio]

It's hard to argue that incest is highly popular amongst gamers that play erotic games. Such people are not even close to being a mainstream minority but their number is high enough to attract attention of everyone in a porn business. But I think you're wrong about popularity of incest @DarthSeduction . It's definitely one of the most popular fetishes on the internet but I doubt it's even close to rape. Western society is rich but it's much, much smaller than asian and rape is dominant out there. Another thing is that it's hard to expect it's only paypal's fault with Patreon ban. That's just a marketing move and paypal might be one of the reasons. No sane person will deal with things like incest or rape if it's not in a porn business and it aims for more reach. I can't imagine worse marketing-wise move than attracting bunch of extreme porn creators that deals with a niche that might disgust people who don't play such games at all. Try to talk about such things with people who aren't into porn and you'll be barely able to talk as it's almost on a same level a necrophilia for them. Tabbos are tabbos for a reason and I can't see a logical way that could make them work in a mainstream market. Patreon actions are logical tho they should do it much clearer and faster. It's bad for us and our market but good for them. It's quite sad that our whole market depends on 1 site that's not even a real distribution platform.

 

[DarthSeduction]

It's hard to argue that incest is highly popular amongst gamers that play erotic games. Such people are not even close to being a mainstream minority but their number is high enough to attract attention of everyone in a porn business. But I think you're wrong about popularity of incest @DarthSeduction . It's definitely one of the most popular fetishes on the internet but I doubt it's even close to rape. Western society is rich but it's much, much smaller than asian and rape is dominant out there. Another thing is that it's hard to expect it's only paypal's fault with Patreon ban. That's just a marketing move and paypal might be one of the reasons. No sane person will deal with things like incest or rape if it's not in a porn business and it aims for more reach. I can't imagine worse marketing-wise move than attracting bunch of extreme porn creators that deals with a niche that might disgust people who don't play such games at all. Try to talk about such things with people who aren't into porn and you'll be barely able to talk as it's almost on a same level a necrophilia for them. Tabbos are tabbos for a reason and I can't see a logical way that could make them work in a mainstream market. Patreon actions are logical tho they should do it much clearer and faster. It's bad for us and our market but good for them. It's quite sad that our whole market depends on 1 site that's not even a real distribution platform.

From a marketing standpoint, however, patreon's entire adult lineup is essentially secret. The games are removed from the search feature, and even if they weren't patreon's public image is that of a basic content creator funding platform. They aren't marketing the porn. No, it's not about marketing, it's about the higher risk involved in successfully processing payments from such extreme fetishes. That's why its paypal. The types of people that would be so shocked to find out a platform that does allow pornography also allowed taboo content are so miniscule in our society that they don't have the voice to kill the content outright, without also killing porn. It makes sense only in the guise of high risk. And in that, I'd like to see some evidence to support the idea that incest, rape, and bestiality are such a significantly higher risk as to be disallowed outright.