Patreon is taking away Adult Creators creative freedom with there new guidelines.

anne O'nymous

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About Patreon not being responsible if a guy is selling child pornography on their site, I can't see how this can be a real thing.
Yet it would be the way thing would goes.

This said, can you, please, stop talking about the area we care the less and which, anyway, is banned since years on Patreon, child pornography ? What concern us here is the ban on incest depiction, bestiality depiction (including furry), none consensual sex depiction, and I think I miss one but I don't remember which.
 

stoper

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@anne O'nymous , I gave you the real example of torrent trackers and you just choose to ignore it. There are no passive intermediaries in this business. You are responsible for what is being sold on your platform.

The one you're missing is exactly "sexual depiction of minors". At least that's what @Palanto Games listed.
 

anne O'nymous

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I gave you the real example of torrent trackers and you just choose to ignore it. There are no passive intermediaries in this business.
I ignored it because it's, both technically and legally speaking, a none sense.
There's a lot of fully passive intermediaries on internet. ISP, emails providers, files hosting services, payment providers, and NNTP providers are some of them. A lot of them are implied in "this business" ; in my list, only NNTP providers aren't, but they are a good example of the said "none sense".

NNTP providers won a lot of cases in the past, and still would do if Usenet were still a thing. The content is hosted on their platform, it's their platform which give you access to it, and still they aren't legally responsible because what they do is just unfiltered replication of raw content. It's both the notion of "raw content" and the absence of filtering which legally discharge them of any responsibility and let them won in justice. They stopped to win the day they started to filter the content to remove spams. It wasn't anymore raw content, they weren't anymore passive because filtering is an active thing.
I talk about them because Torrent trackers do the exact opposite. They host nothing, but they give you filtered access to the content. Not only they know exactly what the content is, but they also provide you an easy way to access it. And that's why they can be targeted and are hit. If they were just providers of a raw list of trackers, without any filtering capabilities, except name searching, in their interface, they would own no responsibility since they would just offer a replication of the "network index". But well, in this case they also would be completely useless.

Files hosting services are implied in "this business". Whatever you create, as long as it's numerical, you need a file hosting service. It can be one like youtube, which present directly usable content, or one like mega, which present indirectly usable content. In both case, the only responsibility they own is the obligation to respond to legal notifications.
Mega can legally offer access to incest games, youtube can legally host incest videos, as long as it's an unfiltered access and they remove the content when notified of it's illegality. That's why megaupload failed. They offered the same kind of services, but some paying customers had access to a filtering feature ; they stopped to be passive because of this sole thing. Oh, by the way, they also failed to remove the illegal content and still offered access to it for their staff members and part of they paying customers, it wasn't a good idea either.

And the same exact thing apply to Patreon. They are (well in fact they were) a passive intermediary, as well as the payment providers. This even with their ToS stating that you can't use their services for this or that. Why do you think that banks don't care what you do with your money, except when the Law state that they must ? It's because it discharge them to all responsibility.
When opening your account, you agreed to their ToS, so you agreed to not use their services to do illegal things. As long as they don't care what you do, you are just a liar and you abused them ; it's your responsibility, not their. The instant they start looking what you do, it become their responsibility because they now are aware that you lied. You don't abuse them anymore, they are silent accomplices.
That's where Patreon stopped to be a passive intermediary. As long as their ToS were something like, "if you create adult content, you must flag it", and, "you must follow the law of your country", they owned no responsibility. Even with them actively enforcing the "adult content" flag, their responsibility weren't implied. But the instant they started to ban content and track it, they became active, and so now own responsibility over the content. Now, if there's an incest game available from a country where it's illegal, they failed in their filtering activity and are responsible of this failure. Still they aren't responsible of the fact that the game depict incest.


You are responsible for what is being sold on your platform.
Of what you sell, yes. But Patreon sell nothing. Amazon isn't sentenced when illegal content is sold using their services, they are sentenced when they know that it's sold and do nothing against it.
 

stoper

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@anne O'nymous , so are you arguing my point, or defending it? Because you just wrote that they are legally responsible for not filtering the content, not removing it. And that was what I myself was saying - they can get in trouble for your illegal activities on their platform.
 

xןʞ

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The reality is eventually Patreon is gonna do what they have to to make "regular" content creators turn on the adult content creators to save their own skin, whether it be with threats to shut down any non PG content or whatever.

So they'll have the so-called normal people run out the adult devs and bill it as we're cleaning up our own house and kicking out the scum perverts!
 

anne O'nymous

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Because you just wrote that they are legally responsible for not filtering the content, not removing it.
No, I said that they decided to be legally responsible, it's totally different.

Legally, as long as they weren't hosting, selling, or filtering the content, they weren't legally responsible of what was funded using their service. But the fact is that they now actively filter the content, which make them responsible since the instant they started acting.
They haven't choose to enforce their guidelines by kicking out, or at least temporary suspending, creators who were reported because they don't comply to their rules. Same they haven't choose a passive filtering way, like youtube and their running algorithm who detect that "this" is a copyrighted content. No, instead they choose to enforce these rules by themselves, actively going, by themselves, against creators of this content, actively asking them to change their content if they don't want to be kicked out. And so they voluntarily choose to endorse the responsibility of all the content.

The difference is subtle, but subtle is the Law. Basically speaking, "we will kick you out if you don't comply to our rules", mean that the service isn't responsible, you are the one who don't comply. But, "comply to our rules, or we kick you out", mean the opposite. They now are the ones who are responsible in case they failed to enforce their rules and the law.
 

stoper

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@anne O'nymous , they were forced to moderate to some degree, otherwise PayPal wouldn't have worked with them. How much of that moderation is now making them responsible for the content, or when was the line crossed, I cannot say, I'm not an expert.
 

xןʞ

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I mean paypal is against all adult content so the idea of getting rid of the "big 4" to appease paypal would only last so long unless the end game is to get rid of EVERYTHING porny to save paypal. There basically has to be another reason than just "but mah paypalz."

Of course a lot of independent porn creators and super shady ass people skirt paypal rules by making the paypal payment into something "completely unrelated" as a personal payment to said person.

Which a lot of devs could do but that system is basically built on trust since there is no real company middleman in-between to make sure everyone gets what they paid for, so yeah there would probably be about 5-10 adult devs people would actually trust just randomally giving a paypal payment to with no outside accountability.
 

anne O'nymous

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they were forced to moderate to some degree, otherwise PayPal wouldn't have worked with them. [...]
I mean paypal is against all adult content so the idea of getting rid of the "big 4" to appease paypal would only last so long unless the end game is to get rid of EVERYTHING porny to save paypal.[...]
Except that what both of you say is the opposite of the truth.


Patreon fought hard, and for a long time, to reach a compromise with Paypal. They achieved this one and half a year ago. On Patreon, and on Patreon only, creators of adult content can use the services of a subsidiary company of Paypal.
So, stating that all this is a big move to appease Paypal is meaningless. It's not like they just discovered that there's adult content on Patreon. They know this since years, they heard about it each time they've meet Jack Conte, and they probably even know it since the very first day of their collaboration with Patreon.

Anyway, it's not the fact that it's adult content or porn which is the problem, but the fact that for an online payment provided, it mean too many frauds. And guess who have to pay the refund ? It's not your bank, neither Patreon, nor the creator, it's the payment provider.
Paypal don't use a subsidiary company only to protect their reputation, but also to protect their annual balance sheet. It need to be as stable as possible to reassure the banks, which isn't possible if you deal too much with adult content. That's also why payment providers working with the adult industry have high fees. They need them to compensate the loss due to the frauds.

Now, can have Paypal changed its mind ? I'm sure that it's not the case. Patreon is less risky, even with adult content, and the growth of Patreon during the last year is mostly due to the adult content. Paypal have found a new source of earning, it's not to let it go now.
Plus, Patreon don't go against porn. There's a lot of cam girls and attention whores selling nudes and live action on Patreon ; apparently there's even some who sell more than that if you live near enough to them. And they aren't (yet at least) targeted, while they should have been the first one if it was a real campaign against pornography, especially if it was to reassure their partners like Paypal.
In the end, it really have all of a moral campaign and nothing else. With a little part of, "please just change what you make but stay with us, we need you and your money".[/user]
 

stoper

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@anne O'nymous , you're just constantly twisting my words. I never said the recent changes are to please PayPal. I said the initial moderation (yes, more than a year ago) was due to their work with PayPal. So your claim about an unmoderated, wild west platform, where everyone does what they want and Patreon are not held responsible for what happens, is not possible. Because PayPal would never work with some site, where everyone and his dog is making bestiality vids.
But lets just end this pointless conversation by stating that whatever it is that you're saying is in fact the undeniable truth.
 

fauxplayer

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And Patreon is run by Jews. Maybe in the future you'll all admit that /pol/ is right and move to Hatreon.

Seriouslly literal Nazis are less likely to censor you than almost every single modern tech company.
Sure, you're not likely to be censored by Nazis assuming you are a white, protestant male. And if you also share their vile views on "other" races and ethnicities being inferior. And also are not shy about voicing those opinions and encouraging others to actively discriminate against these inferior races.

Seriously, shut the fuck up you Nazi-sympathizing piece of shit.
 
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gunderson

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Public opinion and profit margins are king here.

You can talk about legality or illegality until you're blue in the face, but even if something is technically illegal that won't necessarily stop a business from doing it.

I don't know who Patreon got into bed with who wants this change, but if Patreon is convinced that the potential profits of the porn industry are worth the various risks, they'll try to make us happy.

For now, the most important things for us to do are to raise a stink about this new change (petitions, articles, comments, phone calls, etc.) and stop supporting creators who censor their own content in compliance with these new rules.

That last one, the boycott, is crucial. We have to show Patreon that this change will directly cost them money. I'm sure it's tempting to side with creators just trying to make a living, but I'm ultimately supporting whoever I support because I like what they make, not because I like who they are.
 

Burt Reynolds Mustache

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Signed of course, but it won't change a thing. The four areas they banned had to be banned even if they wouldn't want that.

bestiality, incest, sexual depiction of minors, and suggestive sexual violence

Those are the four areas they banned, and that is because they are banned by law on the whole planet. There isn't much they can do about it. It's banned in reality as in fiction (in fiction not everything / everywhere "yet"), since they're an american company they have to abide by american law and there those four categories are banned as fiction too.

So I for myself knew that this day would come...
Just to clear this up, as I didn't see any posts that did. Those categories are NOT banned as fiction in the United States, in fact nothing is banned as fiction in the United States due to a specific amendment in the American Constitution preventing it. It's why the US can only ban pornography that has actual identifiable victims like **********. I'm fine with that, because I understand like 99% of the population, that real CP is sick shit. Bestiality itself is illegal in most states in the US, but as far as I can find, bestiality porn, even real bestiality porn is not. (Christ, I can't believe I looked this shit up. :confused:)

Depictions of fictional incest are most certainly not illegal as it's the fastest growing market in porn right now. Depictions of sexual violence are not illegal in the US either, though of course a film depicting an actual rape would be.

Edit: I went into detail about the US constitution because I realize that a lot of people here are not from the US, so there is a good chance they would not know the laws here.
 

Re-4Andrew

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Public opinion and profit margins are king here.

You can talk about legality or illegality until you're blue in the face, but even if something is technically illegal that won't necessarily stop a business from doing it.

I don't know who Patreon got into bed with who wants this change, but if Patreon is convinced that the potential profits of the porn industry are worth the various risks, they'll try to make us happy.

For now, the most important things for us to do are to raise a stink about this new change (petitions, articles, comments, phone calls, etc.) and stop supporting creators who censor their own content in compliance with these new rules.

That last one, the boycott, is crucial. We have to show Patreon that this change will directly cost them money. I'm sure it's tempting to side with creators just trying to make a living, but I'm ultimately supporting whoever I support because I like what they make, not because I like who they are.
I get what your saying but the creators have left there games open for mods as a work around. So you can download a game from Patreon come on F95 and get a mod to revert the game back to its original format, or the devs original vision.
Of course that's supposing someone created a mod.

And a number of devs I talk to on Patreon aren't going to change their games content, only what or how they post content on Patreon. Due to Patreons popularity devs would lose out trying to switch to another site. Creators get a very low percent of funding. A majority have other jobs, it is unrealistic to think they rely on the pathetic small percentage of funding they receive to live of off, let alone using it to hire on more people, and upgrade their computers hardware/software!

I even called some devs sell outs, for changing content and as you would expect I got blasted for it. I understand their position, either lose out on what is really nothing more then a hobby of love, or conform for the time being until another site is created, and game creators are a brother/sisterhood community, their teaming up to get another site that is exclusively for content now banned on patreon.

And I say this in a goodhearted way, be no means I'm I attacking you. I agree that both Patreon and Creators should be treated equally for their actions.
 

Re-4Andrew

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Just to clear this up, as I didn't see any posts that did. Those categories are NOT banned as fiction in the United States, in fact nothing is banned as fiction in the United States due to a specific amendment in the American Constitution preventing it. It's why the US can only ban pornography that has actual identifiable victims like **********. I'm fine with that, because I understand like 99% of the population, that real CP is sick shit. Bestiality itself is illegal in most states in the US, but as far as I can find, bestiality porn, even real bestiality porn is not. (Christ, I can't believe I looked this shit up. :confused:)

Depictions of fictional incest are most certainly not illegal as it's the fastest growing market in porn right now. Depictions of sexual violence are not illegal in the US either, though of course a film depicting an actual rape would be.

Edit: I went into detail about the US constitution because I realize that a lot of people here are not from the US, so there is a good chance they would not know the laws here.
I'm from the US and the constitution means jack sh*t unless it comes to religion or guns, then everyone throws their hands up. The reason most of the taboo subjects aren't illegal is because they are labeled taboo, most assume it must be illegal. To the funny part, if bestiality porn was as popular as the usual porn then you would see a nationwide law passed, people do not want see kind of porn, so its not a concern. I could sit here and give millions of government files that defile the constitution, and your freedoms.

They tried this several times with anal, vaginal even oral porn despite it being straight or gay. What they consider acceptable would be the junk you find on HBO, CineMAX and Showtime. And high percentage of CP arrests are from Anime and Hentai, so its not just the real life CP that law enforcement is going after.
 

Burt Reynolds Mustache

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I'm from the US and the constitution means jack sh*t unless it comes to religion or guns, then everyone throws their hands up. The reason most of the taboo subjects aren't illegal is because they are labeled taboo, most assume it must be illegal. To the funny part, if bestiality porn was as popular as the usual porn then you would see a nationwide law passed, people do not want see kind of porn, so its not a concern. I could sit here and give millions of government files that defile the constitution, and your freedoms.

They tried this several times with anal, vaginal even oral porn despite it being straight or gay. What they consider acceptable would be the junk you find on HBO, CineMAX and Showtime. And high percentage of CP arrests are from Anime and Hentai, so its not just the real life CP that law enforcement is going after.
As to the first, line, it's factually untrue, but I'll leave it at that. While flawed, the free speech protections in the US are pretty much the strongest in the world when it comes to this shit. The Supreme Court ruled that a law banning the depiction of child sex was in fact unconstitutional. The same goes for incest, NC, bestiality and the like (again, depictions, not the real thing. In theory a nationwide law banning actual bestiality porn could feasibly make it through congress, and be upheld by the Supreme Court when it came up. One based on simple depictions? The court would strike it down, HARD, because they already have in the past.

I also do not get how you think that a high percentage of CP arrests are from Anime and Hentai? Looking for those kinds of cases in particular, I've found a grand total of four that have occurred in the last 15 years or so. A few others had anime and manga as part of the arrest but the suspect also had real cp on their computer, and in all of those cases the possesion charges based on drawn CP were thrown out. There are about 3-5,000 CP arrests made in the US each year. 4 convictions (none which actually went to trial, and all of which ended up circumventing the unconstitutional law) in 15 years does not a high percentage make.

Now I totally might have missed something. If you've got something that shows that anime and manga porn arrests are a big part of this whole mess let me know.

But it's not like this is all that relevant to the matter at hand. As none of the games we are talking about are depicting loli or shota content. None of what they do is illegal under federal law. Hell, I can't find where it would be illegal under any state laws either.
 

3Bliksems

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Seeing so many devs having their pages put under review for incest content lately, I can't help but think that whoever is doing the enforcing of the Patreon community guidelines are turning a blind eye to some creators.

Case in point would be Animopron. While I love his work, and I'm happy that his page is still live, I find it strange that Patreon haven't put his page under review yet. Lets face it, his latest work with Quiet pretty much breaks the first two guideline rules for adult content on the site:

...We have zero tolerance when it comes to the glorification of sexual violence which includes bestiality, rape...
Zero tolerance my ass, they target some creators while completely ignoring others.
 
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Seeing so many devs having their pages put under review for incest content lately, I can't help but think that whoever is doing the enforcing of the Patreon community guidelines are turning a blind eye to some creators.

Case in point would be Animopron. While I love his work, and I'm happy that his page is still live, I find it strange that Patreon haven't put his page under review yet. Lets face it, his latest work with Quiet pretty much breaks the first two guideline rules for adult content on the site:



Zero tolerance my ass, they target some creators while completely ignoring others.
Yeah, same thing with studio fow. I mean they make entire movie about gangrape. :p