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Porn Game Tropes: The good, the bad, and the fugly

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Segnbora

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Aug 30, 2017
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But also...is that what the market wants? If we look at the dead hand of market forces, realism and/or a healthy understanding of sexuality isn't present in any of the top earners. So, where is the drive for devs to go down that route?
So...

I've written several hundred thousand words of fiction in which the female protagonist has a robust and entirely consensual sexuality, because that's my preference no matter what the scenario, but I agree with you. I get praise, but I don't get clicks. Corruption of the innocent is where the $ lives. Women who look like Charlize Theron with breast implants but have the emotional sexuality of a 13-year-old Disney princess are the norm. It's...disturbing, to say the least.

Still, my point (as you obviously recognized) is that there's a completely unhealthy and not particularly realistic view of female sexuality in the vast majority of erotic games, and it's worth interrogating why that is.
 

DarthSeduction

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While I agree with you in almost every possible fashion, I'd like to take this in a somewhat tangential direction. Do you think that most games reflect a healthy understanding of sexuality? Especially female sexuality? Because I don't, and I think it's worth interrogating why that is.

I don't think the fact that dudes are writing the games is the entirety of the answer.
I also don't think it's about virginity though. My personal stance on the issue is broad, but this is a discussion about the inner workings of game design. Maybe, after collecting my thoughts, I can make a good metatrope out of it, because this is certainly something that bugs me. Something like PC made from an NPC or something.

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In summary, self insert characters, completely without their own non sex related goals, cannot form meaningful relationships. They'll always be shallow. So, you either need to give your character a goal that can be shared with the female characters, or stop writing self inserts. After that, it's totally possible to write deep characters who have their own motivations and desires that don't come off as shallow gold diggers, easily tricked prudes gone wild, or immature floosies.
 

Segnbora

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Aug 30, 2017
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I also don't think it's about virginity though.
Did I mention virginity?

Your main character is 99% of the time, designed to be a blank slate on which you insert yourself.
Well, my loathing of the "you're just an ordinary guy" trope should be more documented than it is, but trust me: it exists.

Note that I have never played, and never will play, Big Brother. My own personal rebellion, if you will.

don't make a self insert character
Agreed. Don't.
 

Segnbora

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Aug 30, 2017
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Look, that was unfair of me. You spent an immense amount of time defending a position with which I largely agree.

We both think that female MCs/NPCs should have reasons for exploring their sexuality. You want to gift them more agency than I'm willing to. That's fine. As long as they have agency, I'm cool with whatever. Personally, though, I'd like to see the reasons for the agency.
 

Deleted member 229118

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Oct 3, 2017
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I've written several hundred thousand words of fiction in which the female protagonist has a robust and entirely consensual sexuality, because that's my preference no matter what the scenario, but I agree with you. I get praise, but I don't get clicks. Corruption of the innocent is where the $ lives. Women who look like Charlize Theron with breast implants but have the emotional sexuality of a 13-year-old Disney princess are the norm. It's...disturbing, to say the least.

Still, my point (as you obviously recognized) is that there's a completely unhealthy and not particularly realistic view of female sexuality in the vast majority of erotic games, and it's worth interrogating why that is.
The answer is simple:
We play game's to carry out fantasies of stuff we dont do in real life.
The most common fantasy for men is the domination of females.
Enslavement, Rape, Incest, etc.
All are from the base desire to dominate, to control woman.
It is instinctual behavior.
 

Deleted member 229118

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You can't demonstrate or prove that and I don't think it's true.
From:


There is a great deal of variation in human behavior. Females are sometimes the dominant partner in an intimate hetero relationship (though few males appreciate this). In gay and lesbian relationships, one partner is still more likely to be dominant and the other more submissive, even though the same sex. Dominance and submission do not always follow the lines of biological sex.
However, the most common pattern is that men are dominant and women are submissive. The biological reason for this is that testosterone is the dominance hormone, and average adult men have a serum testosterone level 15 times higher than average adult women. In past generations, the difference was even greater. (Average testosterone levels are falling due to environmental and food-supply contaminants.)

From me:
Really just search any search engining.
They all say the same.
Most men are natural more dominate.
We want power, Control.
There are execptions.
There always are.
Beside look at the most popular porn games.
You will find they all share the same theme.
1 guy owning a harem of woman.

You dont have the like facts.
But they are facts.
 
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Segnbora

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Aug 30, 2017
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You understand that ludicrous yet published erotic fiction isn't science, right?

You understand that your fetishes aren't science, right?
 

Segnbora

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Aug 30, 2017
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It is a simple fact.
It is a simple invention of your rather creative mind. Kudos and good luck to you and your alternate reality.

While your delightful fantasy made me seek out and consume every red-tinted pill in my apartment, I have to say...

There have not been any such documentaries, you know you're lying, and your feigned authority as you lie about such documentaries isn't particularly sexy. Your likelihood of getting laid due to the raw masculine force of your arguments is diminishing by the minute.
 

Deleted member 229118

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Oct 3, 2017
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It is a simple invention of your rather creative mind. Kudos and good luck to you and your alternate reality.

There have not been any such documentaries, you know you're lying, and your feigned authority as you lie about such documentaries isn't particularly sexy. Your likelihood of getting laid due to the raw masculine force of your arguments is diminishing by the minute. That must be devastating for you.
Wow projecting much?
You might want to reconsider your attitude.
Self-righteous is an anoying trait to have.
 

RogueKnightUK

Co-Writer: Retrieving The Past
Game Developer
Jul 10, 2018
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... However, the most common pattern is that men are dominant and women are submissive. The biological reason for this is that testosterone is the dominance hormone, and average adult men have a serum testosterone level 15 times higher than average adult women. In past generations, the difference was even greater. (Average testosterone levels are falling due to environmental and food-supply contaminants.)
...
The problem there is one of misunderstanding. Studies of the sex industry have shown that the people most into being dominated are those who, in everyday life, are powerful and dominant. Judges, politicians, industry leaders, etc. are frequently the predominant client for high class dominatrixes. People don't fantasize about what they already have on tap every day. They fantasize the thing they can't easily get (for various reasons).

Thus the 'natural' tendency for males to be more dominant, through both drive (testosterone and social conditioning) and through availability (male dominated society and social 'norms') are the exact reason why men are, through that added common-place factor, more likely to seek submission in fantasy, not less.

Interestingly, of those who do have a fetish for domination, the market (broad group) is divided further into those who want to dominate completely, with people (or things) that can't even choose - necrophilia, bestiality, etc are all extreme and specialized forms of domination fantasy.

In similar vein, the 'submission' generic group is also broader with more variety and specializations than many suspect. The fetish for BBW (Big Women) is a very widespread and common form of submission fantasy, where the woman is literally made larger, and fed and pampered by her servile men. It doesn't have to involve physical acts of strength to be submission.
 

Deleted member 229118

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Links to the documentaries, please.
Coudnt find them.
Here is an other docementry:


The problem there is one of misunderstanding. Studies of the sex industry have shown that the people most into being dominated are those who, in everyday life, are powerful and dominant. Judges, politicians, industry leaders, etc. are frequently the predominant client for high class dominatrixes. People don't fantasize about what they already have on tap every day. They fantasize the thing they can't easily get (for various reasons).
True.

Thus the 'natural' tendency for males to be more dominant, through both drive (testosterone and social conditioning) and through availability (male dominated society and social 'norms') are the exact reason why men are, through that added common-place factor, more likely to seek submission in fantasy, not less.
False.
Men spend most of there time supressing or controling our more aminmalstic impulses.
It is also why we are more likely to cheat.
The need to spread our seed is very powerfull.
And as you said yoursef:
They fantasize the thing they can't easily get
And a entire harem of sex slaves isnt something your avarage guy has.

Interestingly, of those who do have a fetish for domination, the market (broad group) is divided further into those who want to dominate completely, with people (or things) that can't even choose - necrophilia, bestiality, etc are all extreme and specialized forms of domination fantasy.
True there is alot of difference's.
Rape porn is quiet populair as is incest(both are power fantasies).
Mind control is less populair as is necrophilia.

I myself draw the line at snuff.
I prefeer to keep sex and killing seperate.
Some are turned on by that.
But it is yet an other power fantasy.

In similar vein, the 'submission' generic group is also broader with more variety and specializations than many suspect. The fetish for BBW (Big Women) is a very widespread and common form of submission fantasy, where the woman is literally made larger, and fed and pampered by her servile men. It doesn't have to involve physical acts of strength to be submission.
Again true.
I said most men seek to dominate woman not all men.
But you didnt really pick a good example.
Big woman is popular because the woman entire entirely depended on the men.(food, moving, etc)
Again it is a we who have power over woman.

Most of us know the difference between fantasy and reality.
You have to keep in mind that molesters get killed in jail by there immate's.
That how low on the social pecking order rapists are.
That even there fellow criminals hate them.

Let me use myself as example:
I play games full of sexual slavery, mind control, incest and rape.
All to feed a desire to rule over woman, to dominate.

In real life doing any of the above things means i will kill you.
What seperate's humans from animals is our ability to control ourselves.
So yes there is a large amount of difference's between the kind of domination men seek.
But for most of us domination is at the very core of our prefert fetish.
 

RogueKnightUK

Co-Writer: Retrieving The Past
Game Developer
Jul 10, 2018
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Men spend most of there time supressing or controling our more aminmalstic impulses.
That depends on how one defines 'suppressing'. Sure, they don't act on them, but that is largely because they are afraid of the consequences, rather than because they are successfully suppressing the desire itself. I think 'resisting' is the word you are looking for.

Also, of course, we don't suppress all of our animalistic impulses - only those where we foresee consequences we fear, and since a fear response is about as base and animalistic impulse as exists, that too is merely succumbing to our base impulses.

Do you resist the impulse to sleep, to have sex with a willing mate, to eat? Only when some kind of fear is added.



It is also why we are more likely to cheat.
The need to spread our seed is very powerfull.
Not quite. That's simply an evolution-honed survival trait of a different order. Cheating and harems have nothing to do with domination. Showing off your harem to other men is, of course, a means to show dominance over those men. A true harem, of course, means providing food, housing, clothing, entertainment and satisfaction with life to multiple women at a time - and that is pretty expensive. A harem therefore demonstrated wealth - but that demonstration was to those outside of the harem.

In simple biological terms, one man can impregnate an entire village of women to preserve the species, should something kill off the other men. Meanwhile except for relatively rare situations of multiple ova being fertilized by more than one mate's semen, a woman gets pregnant by only one man at a time. There's no biological advantage to the woman who continues to mate with more than necessary to produce a child. But there is a biological advantage to the male that impregnates multiple women at a time - since there will be more of his genes in the next generation.

It has nothing to do with 'domination' or subservience, just breeding. It is therefore a red herring to any discussion of domination.


I said most men seek to dominate woman not all men.
I'm not sure where you got that statistic. I'm a marketer who's worked the adult industry in various niches, from regular porn in the 90s, through to sex toys, escorts, and dating, and I can tell you that it doesn't match the actual traffic data or customer profiles.


Big woman is popular because the woman entire entirely depended on the men.(food, moving, etc)
Again it is a we to have power over woman.
You've gone to the most extreme end of a very wide spectrum. However, you've also indicated there that you have never had a dependant - it is hard work and expensive. Wait til you have kids and see what the bills are like. :)

In much of the world, even today, and with literal millennia of history to match, the epitome of the wealthy man was the rotund, slightly over-fed one. We literally associate being a little overweight with wealth and pampering, while we associate skinniness with poverty, illness, and lack of care.

Buddha is generally portrayed as fat, the embodiment of wealth and happiness.
Santa is portrayed as fat and merry - just what earlier society expected someone who gave strangers gifts would look like.

That has been changing only really in the last 60 years, as more people have more time to spend in the gym, as advances in freight speeds and freezing foods have meant a diet can be far wider than just what is available from local producers, and as movies and magazines have changed what they display as a 'perfect' body.

Evolution doesn't work in decades. Most of our instincts are still designed for a prehistoric past where we needed to run away from beasts that could eat us, and where if we didn't breed young, (i.e. have a drive to breed at the earliest opportunity presented), we probably would never pass on our genes at all because of the mortality rate.
 

Deleted member 229118

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That depends on how one defines 'suppressing'. Sure, they don't act on them, but that is largely because they are afraid of the consequences, rather than because they are successfully suppressing the desire itself. I think 'resisting' is the word you are looking for.

Also, of course, we don't suppress all of our animalistic impulses - only those where we foresee consequences we fear, and since a fear response is about as base and animalistic impulse as exists, that too is merely succumbing to our base impulses.

Do you resist the impulse to sleep, to have sex with a willing mate, to eat? Only when some kind of fear is added.
Fair enough.
The words resist is indeed more accurate.
Thank you.


Not quite. That's simply an evolution-honed survival trait of a different order. Cheating and harems have nothing to do with domination. Showing off your harem to other men is, of course, a means to show dominance over those men. A true harem, of course, means providing food, housing, clothing, entertainment and satisfaction with life to multiple women at a time - and that is pretty expensive. A harem therefore demonstrated wealth - but that demonstration was to those outside of the harem.

In simple biological terms, one man can impregnate an entire village of women to preserve the species, should something kill off the other men. Meanwhile except for relatively rare situations of multiple ova being fertilized by more than one mate's semen, a woman gets pregnant by only one man at a time. There's no biological advantage to the woman who continues to mate with more than necessary to produce a child. But there is a biological advantage to the male that impregnates multiple women at a time - since there will be more of his genes in the next generation.

It has nothing to do with 'domination' or subservience, just breeding. It is therefore a red herring to any discussion of domination.
I think i found the problem.
In my point of view:
To dominate means to rule over, To show superiority, To be the one in control.
I would argue that the need to breed is what makes men dominant to ensure the have the wealth and status needed to be the breeder.
Sorry for the confusion.

I'm not sure where you got that statistic. I'm a marketer who's worked the adult industry in various niches, from regular porn in the 90s, through to sex toys, escorts, and dating, and I can tell you that it doesn't match the actual traffic data or customer profiles.
I got mine from years of reading up on human psychologie.
The need of men to be in control(aka dominate) is something that shows up in many different topic's.
It is never potrayed as bad just as a natural part of being a male.

Your data seems to be limted to people buying stuff.
There are alot of stuff that people use that arent legal.
Not to mention shared computer's, black markets, kill-these-people-on-sight rings, etc.

I think the problem we have is miscommunication.
I am talking about the male need to dominate, to rule, to be in control.
Not them showing it.
There is alot we hide from others after all.

You've gone to the most extreme end of a very wide spectrum. However, you've also indicated there that you have never had a dependant - it is hard work and expensive. Wait til you have kids and see what the bills are like. :)
I wish people would stop asuming.
I am aware of how expensive it is.
I am also aware of research being done on the subject and those men enjoy the fact the woman is depended on them.
And since having someone depended on you give you a certian feeling of control.
After all without you they are helpless.

In much of the world, even today, and with literal millennia of history to match, the epitome of the wealthy man was the rotund, slightly over-fed one. We literally associate being a little overweight with wealth and pampering, while we associate skinniness with poverty, illness, and lack of care.

Buddha is generally portrayed as fat, the embodiment of wealth and happiness.
Santa is portrayed as fat and merry - just what earlier society expected someone who gave strangers gifts would look like.
Thanks for the intel.
As added bonus i feel less bad about being fat.

That has been changing only really in the last 60 years, as more people have more time to spend in the gym, as advances in freight speeds and freezing foods have meant a diet can be far wider than just what is available from local producers, and as movies and magazines have changed what they display as a 'perfect' body.

Evolution doesn't work in decades. Most of our instincts are still designed for a prehistoric past where we needed to run away from beasts that could eat us, and where if we didn't breed young, (i.e. have a drive to breed at the earliest opportunity presented), we probably would never pass on our genes at all because of the mortality rate.
Agreed.
 

megaplayboy10k

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Apr 16, 2018
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Evo psych borders on pseudoscience much of the time. Limited evidence is used to justify overbroad theories.

In terms of NPCs with agency, a "compromise" approach is to characterize the things that motivate female characters--types of activities they like, forms of praise or encouragement they enjoy, even the types of sexual activity they like most. This would tend to create a model of gameplay where each conquest is different. OTOH if you have a harem building game, you're going to need to create a plausible scenario where all these women fall in love or lust or sexual submission to the main character, where they are not overburdened by feelings of jealousy or insecurity, or in the case of incestuous harems, shame, self-loathing or fear of discovery. Mind control or "corruption"/mindbreak looks a lot like "hitting the easy button" here.
 

Deleted member 229118

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In terms of NPCs with agency, a "compromise" approach is to characterize the things that motivate female characters--types of activities they like, forms of praise or encouragement they enjoy, even the types of sexual activity they like most. This would tend to create a model of gameplay where each conquest is different. OTOH if you have a harem building game, you're going to need to create a plausible scenario where all these women fall in love or lust or sexual submission to the main character, where they are not overburdened by feelings of jealousy or insecurity, or in the case of incestuous harems, shame, self-loathing or fear of discovery. Mind control or "corruption"/mindbreak looks a lot like "hitting the easy button" here.
True.
I find good mind control games extreemly rare.
Most are indeed just press the easy buttion.

One of the biggest reason i love superpowered so much is that mind control accauly feels like mind control.
Turning off there minds and having them do stuff i want is a huge turn on.
Most i agree with you and just use it as an easy shortcut to slutmode.
 
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megaplayboy10k

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Apr 16, 2018
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True.
I find good mind control games extreemly rare.
Most are indeed just press the easy buttion.

One of the biggest reason i love superpowered so much is that mind control accauly feels like mind control.
Turning off there minds and having them do stuff i want is a huge turn on.
Most i agree with you and just use it as an easy shortcut to slutmode.
It would be nice to see a mind control game with more nuance and subtlety in it. Perhaps early on you can give "nudges" to NPCs. Later you can manipulate or amplify their own urges and motives, alter their personality into something more pleasing but not ludicrously over the top (or have the ability to choose), or even give them a degree of agency in their own submission.
 

Deleted member 229118

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It would be nice to see a mind control game with more nuance and subtlety in it. Perhaps early on you can give "nudges" to NPCs. Later you can manipulate or amplify their own urges and motives, alter their personality into something more pleasing but not ludicrously over the top (or have the ability to choose), or even give them a degree of agency in their own submission.
I would suggest:

His storiest tent to be very well thought out.
Taking in stuff like risk of discovery, slow subtle change's, remembering there is a bigger world out there, etc.
Alot of writters can learn from him.

Personal i prefeer mind control to be different from normal corruption games by making the control total.
It doesnt need to be instant but it does need to be total.
For example:
Mind controling a woman into giving you money turns me on more then having a teenage slut ridding my dick.
Because control is a huge turn on(for me far more then most men)
Likewise i find that alot of mind control games are basicly just corruption games that skip the manipulation via mind control.
/yawn.
 
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