Porn Game Tropes: The good, the bad, and the fugly

5.00 star(s) 2 Votes

Ceesko

Engaged Member
Jun 3, 2017
2,215
5,652
The Master and his dogs: Girls will automatically coagulate to the MC the moment he appears on the screen and will show him a hilarious level of attention and caring for no apparent reason. Said girls cannot be snarky or make roast jokes (not to hurt MC feelings despite that snarkiness and roasting each other is the one the best sign of healthy relationships). Thus the girls behave like canine pets, like dogs running towards their master when he appears in the room. WVM is practically guilty of this.
 

Proto Persona

Active Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
723
Guys,its a game,why you guys take it too serious..:rolleyes:
It's not about taking something too seriously. Personally, I can't just turn my brain off and passively experience something. In the moment I can be still and quiet, but after it's over I think about it. This thread is just people doing that and noticing some very similar stuff cropping up, over and over. It's harmless discussion, no different than what goes on at , the inspiration for this thread.
 

Genji

Engaged Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,845
3,179
It's not about taking something too seriously. Personally, I can't just turn my brain off and passively experience something. In the moment I can be still and quiet, but after it's over I think about it. This thread is just people doing that and noticing some very similar stuff cropping up, over and over. It's harmless discussion, no different than what goes on at , the inspiration for this thread.
I see,but i think there is no point making this discussion though.
 

GNVE

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
724
1,182
I see,but i think there is no point making this discussion though.
I see it as harmless fun and as an (aspiring) developer it also gives information about potential themes that have been done to death. That does not mean I'll have to avoid them at all costs but being aware of them allows me to make sure that if I delve into a trope I must try to set it apart in some way to skirt on the edge of the well trodden path rather than right through the middle (or if I do I do go through the middle I'll do it knowingly and with clear intent.) You can't make your game stand out (okay it's hard not impossible) if you don't know what else is out there.
 

joecoe

Member
Jun 14, 2018
323
289
It may be considered part of McMansion Magical Economics, but I consider it a separate chapter.
Cleaning freaks
The character may be an unemployed drunk using drugs, but the character's house looks like someone polishes every object, floor, and every piece of furniture several times a day. Everything is clean and shiny, especially where DAZ is used to create renders.
 
Last edited:

mecha_froggy

Active Member
Oct 17, 2018
913
1,665
Every Illusion Game Ever:

MC is totally generic, boring, faceless average high school kid in black pants with a white button up shirt, mop hair and (for no explainable reason) a dick the size of the Eiffel Tower.

1st character you meet is the Loli. She is petite, has a squeaky voice, acts hyper. Also the most obviously Japanese looking.

2nd character is the Tomboy. She is average height and has a Tsundare personality. Probably a redhead.

3rd character is the oldest daughter or MC's best friend/cousin. More often than not, though, all three of the girls will be sisters. This one will be blond, quiet, withdrawn, and have the personality and charm of a ball of lint.

Final character will always be the MILF, and she will invariably some Japanese loser's idea of what all American women look like: She's six feet tall, has giant torpedo shaped tits, and fawns all over the MC because rather than just have be a regular cougar she has to be either divorced/widowed and just randomly felt like having the MC live in her house with her, rent free, for some reason that either absolutely, unbelievably contrived or, more often, simply never explained in the first place. She is, of course, the mother of the three previously mentioned daughters.

The only possible variation is that #1 might be replaced with a blond, air-headed ditz who is supposed to be "cutesy" but in reality you just want to slap her for being such a nitwit.

These five characters are the only archetypes that Japan has managed to come up with in 30+ years of making porn. Sad, isn't it?


Every Japanese Fantasy Game Ever:

The MC is blond, has big hair, and is an unexplainable chick-magnet despite having the IQ of algae.

His best friend is what Japanese losers think Goths are like: Tall, skinny, sulky, with long black hair. He's easily a hundred times more stylish, more interesting and more attractive than the MC yet women ignore him because fuck logic.

The 1st girl in the party will invariably be a mage and a healer and serve no other function except as an end-game sex conquest who finally caves in and hooks up with the MC after watching him burn through fifty other women like Kleenex. Why? Because she'll be different. She's special... or something.

The 2nd girl will be a skinny, feisty cat-girl. No exceptions.

Despite already having a mage-healer, at some point a nympho nun will be introduced. Never mind this is a world loosely based of Tolkein Lore, let's just throw in some random Catholic shit because sexy costume > making any goddamn sense whatssomever.

All elves will basically be Japanese girls with blond hair and giant tits. Also instead of pointing up their ears will point out straight horizontally from their heads and be at least two feet long.

All orcs will be just green elves (i.e. Japanese girls will giant tits). They will have no visible muscle definition, because the idea of a female who can lift more than 25lbs comfortably makes Japanese loser game devs cry and piss themselves.

All goblins are just short orcs.

Dwarf women will lack beards (I'm actually OK with this) but will not be stocky nor strong (see above). Instead they will, like all other women, be rail thin and and effeminate as daffodils. They won't even drink ale because they're just that frail. Tee-hee, look how cute and adorable she is!

Male orcs, in sharp contrast, will basically be hogs that walk upright. They will also be fat, rather than muscular, because again bladder issues.

At some point the party will be forced to acquire some kind of ridiculous mascot animal/creature that is completely out of place with the rest of the universe. 4-to-5 odds it will transform into a hot girl at some point in the story and fuck the MC.

In other words, every Japanese fantasy game has been desperately trying to copy/paste everything possible from Final Fantasy for over 30+ years and just sort of glossing over the Western stuff, using it like spray paint over a bunch of generic, standard issue Japanese girls with breast implants.

Universal Rule of All Japanese Games:

Nobody has parents. The only parents allowed are MILFs that the MC can fuck. No one else in their universe has ever reproduced, or if they did they aren't alive or around to tell about. You will never meet the parents of any of the girls that your fuck, ever, unless it involved a MILF that you can fuck. None of them have fathers. Maybe one in a thousand has a brother. They all have sisters and all of them want to fuck the MC, too. Grandparents don't exist. Cousins and siblings of the MC on exist if the game has an incest theme.

Nobody has pets. If animals exist as pets for anybody they are, invariably, magically transformed hot chicks who will change back into hot chicks at some point to fuck the MC. No exceptions.

Nobody goes to work at their job unless it's a game where you're managing a store that only employs girls who want to fuck the MC. They might talk about having a job, but they never actually go to work. Every hour of every day they'll be wandering around your house or your neighborhood.

Nobody owns a car. Seriously, think about it. What was the last time you saw a Japanese game where the MC got into a car to go someplace that wasn't a cut-scene?
 

K18

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2018
1,031
7,242
Excuse me if something similar or the same was already mentioned.

Matchmaker or Match-Breaker / Wingman or Not to Wingman.
MC is tasked with the option of helping his friend get laid with a certain girl. That certain girl might be the friend’s own mother, a teacher, etc. Most reasons the friend ask the MC for help is either because he knows the MC is popular/a ladies man or knows the MC possess hypnosis/mind controlling powers. The MC also could just get the girl solely for himself and without issues from the friend. Although, there are instances where whether MC plays wingman or not might affect the outcome of certain routes/paths altering them or the ending of the entire story in the game.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Friend’s Hot Mom.
The MC’s friend’s (or someone close to MC) attractive mom who is a possible love interest romance and/or sexual encounter for the MC. How the relationship started can be of various scenarios. Instant mutual attraction, MC pursuing the mother, a promiscuous mother initiating the affair, etc. Some mothers may also fall into the neglected and sexually-frustrated housewife cliche.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Female Harem Seeker Supporter/Advocate.
A female character who’s positive and supportive of the protagonist being in a harem/polyamorous relationship with multiple lovers, sharing his love all around. If already the protagonist’s girlfriend or main lover, she is not only accepting and cool with the idea of the protagonist being with multiple women, she encourages him to get intimate with them and is mingling with the other women and persuading them on the relationship. High chance she may get intimate with some the women. Of course, with everybody being happy and comfortable in the harem play a factor.
Or if the female character isn’t initially full-on intimate with the protagonist (yet). They likely have agreed to a deal that benefits one another. With the deal including her assisting him getting with other multiple women, by guiding him and/or nudging the girls.
The Female Harem Seeker Supporter may or may not overlap with her being a Cuckquean, a woman who’s aroused by seeing her man have sex with other women.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Cucked Dad (or other close relative of MC).
More or less a sub-trope for Netori (Protagonist taking someone’s else lover as his own lover. Usually with the protagonist actually caring about the girl he's taken and it being a better relationship the girl's previous one. Unlike the other 3-lettered acronym). The Protagonist’s Dad (or Step-Dad) who is present in the story and witness his wife (MC’s Mother) or girlfriend get taken away from him by his son/step-son (The MC), ending whatever relationship he had with her. Along with the mother or girlfriend declaring herself as the MC’s woman and not wanting anything to the with the Dad.
Or the Dad has yet to fully learn of the events. Dad may come off as pathetic and/or a husband always messing up things. Also including Cucked Uncle or Brother, since it’s the same act and both are of close relations to the MC.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,929
No Female is impossible to bang and in fact, it's rather easy:

This is going to be a little bit of an exaggeration, but not really by that much.

You wake up in the morning in your family home. Dad's dead, and mom is all sad. So you do what any good son would do and stick it in her pooper. That perks her right up like a fresh cup of coffee. After your sweaty anal sex session that nobody else in the house heard you decide it would be a good idea to take a shower. As you approach the shower you notice that your big sister is taking a shower. It doesn't matter that you just came like two minutes ago, you are diamonds again bro and ready to go. So you decide not to waste this opportunity to furiously beat your meat as if it owes you money. Upon spanking the monkey your little sister catches you jerking off. She doesn't scream and run away but instead gets right down on her knees and sucks your cock right then and there! Your big sister is now masturbating in the shower as your little sister sucks your cock and then you make eye contact with big sis. That turns into a threesome, and mom is now the one masturbating in the doorway as she watches her 3 children try to make her a double grandma. You give BOTH sisters a cream pie easy peasy. You decide it's time to put your pants on when you hear a knock at the door. It's your nerdy female friend that has been platonic up until now. She confesses her love to you and you become her boyfriend where you go over to her house to consummate the thing. So you fuck her on the bed taking her virginity like a boss and wave your goodbyes... but her pregnant mom comes home just then and asks you to help bring the groceries in. You carry the groceries in and she confesses that her husband has been neglecting her since the pregnancy and you take care of business doing your 5th cumshot of the day. With all this pussy getting in your way you realize oh shit you are late for work! So you get in your car speeding to work, and of course you get pulled over... So the officer is a female police officer that wants you to bang her on the hood or she will take you to jail. Yes maam you pound that pussy on the hood of the squad car. A news reporter happens by and records your lewd sex acts with the police officer in broad daylight on a busy city street. Instead of turning you and the lady cop in she decides to join you and you have your 2nd threesome of the day letting out cumshots 6 and 7. You really do need to get to work now though so you get back in your car only to find that there is a woman trying to hotwire it! So she says sorry and offers to suck your dick for a ride. You accept and drive to work letting out cumshot number 8 in her mouth. She is impressed and wants to make it up to you and gives you her number. When you get to work your female boss is angry and makes you eat her pussy then fuck her to make up for being late. Your job requires you to make an outcall someplace where you meet with a female client that just so happens to want to suck your dick. You take that blowjob too and head back to work where the bosses secretary is found masturbating in the janitor's closet. So what the hell you fuck her too why not, and head home. On the way home you get a call saying that your best male friend has been in a car accident. You rush to the hospital. Sadly your buddy died, but the nurse is hot and lets you fuck her as consolation. You are still moping about the hospital when your buddies girlfriend comes in crying wondering where she is going to get some dick. You handle that for her giving her a good fuckign as well. You part ways with her and on the way home your stomach starts to rumble so you decide to stop at a diner to grab a bite to eat. The waitress there flirts with you and drags you into the restroom to suck your cock. You give a good fucking and leave a nice tip. Finally, you make your way back home to find the place empty!? What the hell your mom and sisters are gone! a note is there saying they have been kidnapped. You call up your new police woman friend and she sends over a female detective to examine your penis for evidence. That goes as expected and you find a clue leading you to the badguys secret hideout. They have been kidnapped by your sisters arch rival on the cheerleading squad and you must fuck your sisters rival to free them. For having solved the kidnapping the mayor gives you the key to the city! The mayor is also female and you fuck her at her office. You finally go home and go to bed ending a boring day in your life.
 

kytee

Member
Dec 17, 2018
321
719
No Female is impossible to bang and in fact, it's rather easy:

This is going to be a little bit of an exaggeration, but not really by that much.

You wake up in the morning in your family home. Dad's dead, and mom is all sad. So you do what any good son would do and stick it in her pooper. That perks her right up like a fresh cup of coffee. After your sweaty anal sex session that nobody else in the house heard you decide it would be a good idea to take a shower. As you approach the shower you notice that your big sister is taking a shower. It doesn't matter that you just came like two minutes ago, you are diamonds again bro and ready to go. So you decide not to waste this opportunity to furiously beat your meat as if it owes you money. Upon spanking the monkey your little sister catches you jerking off. She doesn't scream and run away but instead gets right down on her knees and sucks your cock right then and there! Your big sister is now masturbating in the shower as your little sister sucks your cock and then you make eye contact with big sis. That turns into a threesome, and mom is now the one masturbating in the doorway as she watches her 3 children try to make her a double grandma. You give BOTH sisters a cream pie easy peasy. You decide it's time to put your pants on when you hear a knock at the door. It's your nerdy female friend that has been platonic up until now. She confesses her love to you and you become her boyfriend where you go over to her house to consummate the thing. So you fuck her on the bed taking her virginity like a boss and wave your goodbyes... but her pregnant mom comes home just then and asks you to help bring the groceries in. You carry the groceries in and she confesses that her husband has been neglecting her since the pregnancy and you take care of business doing your 5th cumshot of the day. With all this pussy getting in your way you realize oh shit you are late for work! So you get in your car speeding to work, and of course you get pulled over... So the officer is a female police officer that wants you to bang her on the hood or she will take you to jail. Yes maam you pound that pussy on the hood of the squad car. A news reporter happens by and records your lewd sex acts with the police officer in broad daylight on a busy city street. Instead of turning you and the lady cop in she decides to join you and you have your 2nd threesome of the day letting out cumshots 6 and 7. You really do need to get to work now though so you get back in your car only to find that there is a woman trying to hotwire it! So she says sorry and offers to suck your dick for a ride. You accept and drive to work letting out cumshot number 8 in her mouth. She is impressed and wants to make it up to you and gives you her number. When you get to work your female boss is angry and makes you eat her pussy then fuck her to make up for being late. Your job requires you to make an outcall someplace where you meet with a female client that just so happens to want to suck your dick. You take that blowjob too and head back to work where the bosses secretary is found masturbating in the janitor's closet. So what the hell you fuck her too why not, and head home. On the way home you get a call saying that your best male friend has been in a car accident. You rush to the hospital. Sadly your buddy died, but the nurse is hot and lets you fuck her as consolation. You are still moping about the hospital when your buddies girlfriend comes in crying wondering where she is going to get some dick. You handle that for her giving her a good fuckign as well. You part ways with her and on the way home your stomach starts to rumble so you decide to stop at a diner to grab a bite to eat. The waitress there flirts with you and drags you into the restroom to suck your cock. You give a good fucking and leave a nice tip. Finally, you make your way back home to find the place empty!? What the hell your mom and sisters are gone! a note is there saying they have been kidnapped. You call up your new police woman friend and she sends over a female detective to examine your penis for evidence. That goes as expected and you find a clue leading you to the badguys secret hideout. They have been kidnapped by your sisters arch rival on the cheerleading squad and you must fuck your sisters rival to free them. For having solved the kidnapping the mayor gives you the key to the city! The mayor is also female and you fuck her at her office. You finally go home and go to bed ending a boring day in your life.
And then you get 2000 patrons and 200 five star reviews for an "amazing story"
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,929
There are two types of black men in adult games:

Neither of these two characters will be the protagonist.

Type 1: Token Black Friend this guy is your drinking buddy, and best friend. He generally will have little or no sexual role at all unless you choose to toss a slut his way. The dude may even be gay, but not for you. He is NOT a threat to you at all. He will have some profound wisdom, and be the best buddy a man could ask for. This guy will take a bullet for you. A true friend to the end. A woman has never had a token black male friend in any game I'm aware of. So you are going to be a male protagonist and a strong male protagonist. This dude is your wingman. Generally, the token black friend will be wicked smart. He may be a doctor, or businessman, a rather charming fellow that never breaks the law.

Type 2: Black Bull Bully Um... Do you remember that token black friend? This guy is the opposite of him. He is going to be bigger and may kick your weak male protagonist's ass. A strong male protagonist rarely encounters one of these fellows and is capable of getting the best of him. This guy exists to bully you. Then he will fuck your wife or girlfriend. And that's not enough for him. He will fuck your mom, your sister, and your teacher. If you are a Sissy Femboi he may even fuck you. If you are a female protagonist this is the only type of black guy you may ever encounter. This fella grew up on the wrong side of the streets and has a criminal record. Probably a drug dealer or pimp.

These are the 2 types of black males in all adult games. Sometimes the black male character can go either way depending on character interactions, but no 3rd path is known to exist for the black male. Neither will ever have a normal penis size or a small penis. It's the myth of the big black cock, always gonna be 12+ inches.
 

Joshua Tree

Conversation Conqueror
Jul 10, 2017
6,158
6,567
There are two types of black men in adult games:

Neither of these two characters will be the protagonist.

Type 1: Token Black Friend this guy is your drinking buddy, and best friend. He generally will have little or no sexual role at all unless you choose to toss a slut his way. The dude may even be gay, but not for you. He is NOT a threat to you at all. He will have some profound wisdom, and be the best buddy a man could ask for. This guy will take a bullet for you. A true friend to the end. A woman has never had a token black male friend in any game I'm aware of. So you are going to be a male protagonist and a strong male protagonist. This dude is your wingman. Generally, the token black friend will be wicked smart. He may be a doctor, or businessman, a rather charming fellow that never breaks the law.

Type 2: Black Bull Bully Um... Do you remember that token black friend? This guy is the opposite of him. He is going to be bigger and may kick your weak male protagonist's ass. A strong male protagonist rarely encounters one of these fellows and is capable of getting the best of him. This guy exists to bully you. Then he will fuck your wife or girlfriend. And that's not enough for him. He will fuck your mom, your sister, and your teacher. If you are a Sissy Femboi he may even fuck you. If you are a female protagonist this is the only type of black guy you may ever encounter. This fella grew up on the wrong side of the streets and has a criminal record. Probably a drug dealer or pimp.

These are the 2 types of black males in all adult games. Sometimes the black male character can go either way depending on character interactions, but no 3rd path is known to exist for the black male. Neither will ever have a normal penis size or a small penis. It's the myth of the big black cock, always gonna be 12+ inches.
There is a few games that make you play as a black protag though. Or play as a female protag, and have encounters with black males. As for the penis thing. Very few games is realistic in that regard, regardless of the color of the protag. Neither is the proportions of majority of females in these games though. Maybe some of these creators should watch the movie "Weird Science" for tips ;p

Think lack of protags of color is related to traction the game can get. Not necessary because people dislike people of color, but when playing a game such as these, they take on the protag persona (or how to explain it). If the creator is someone of color, maybe the chance of the protag in their game is someone of color as well.
 
Aug 22, 2017
267
705
screenshot0001.png
Type 3: Horndog Blacks

Typically a female protagonist trope, black men are walking dildos, not people. They have no character traits other than "Monster Cock" and "Always aggressively ready to fuck". While many female protagonist games suffer from underdeveloped male characters in general, such as "The Weinstein" being simply a lecherous boss, "Blacks" are invariably walking dildos with no motivations or aspirations beyond getting their oversized Anaconda wet. Which they will happily show to the female protagonist, typically causing an instant Hypnotized By The Cock.

Virtually always named Jamal or Tyrone, if at all, he frequently has no characterized past, no hobbies, no family, no friends or girlfriend, no preference nor interests. If you're very lucky he gets some kind of occupation beyond "walking dildo", if not, his occupation may well be "rapist". Your interactions are usually limited to penetration - Black Men are dicks with legs, not there to romance or have conversation with.

Sometimes equally found as NTR characters ("competition") in male protagonist games, but if they're spouting black supremacist memes and their main goal in life seems to be to get sucked off by the white male protagonist, they are already too well characterized and are classified as Type 2.

Examples: Elenas Life, Annas Exciting Affection, Taffy Tales
Partially Averted: Good Girl Gone Bad (Bubba & Friends are classic Horndogs while Tyrone gets a fair share of non-penetrative interactions)
 
Last edited:

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,929
Female Praying to the Porcelain God

I have seen this in a few games, I'm sure it's in more. Basically a female does too many drugs or alcohol then is barfing up in the toilet.
 

mecha_froggy

Active Member
Oct 17, 2018
913
1,665
The F95 Porn Game Trope List

  1. Incest isn't optional, it's mandatory.
  2. NTR starts off mandatory, then quickly gets beat back into optional in no time.
  3. 0.1 pre-alpha tech demo that looks like it was made with crayons? Time to launch that PATREON page!​
  4. Developer immediately abandons game when 0.1 pre-alpha tech demo fails to rake in more than $10K a month on Patreon.​
  5. Copyright? What's that? Oh you mean all the porn videos that I stole for my shitty HTML "real porn" game? Oh.​
  6. Game-within-a-Game, aka the cheap, shitty RenPy harem "game" that is made entirely from Honey Select screenshots. Will invariably take place in a school, the girls will all wear ugly-ass cosplay gear 24/7, the story is on rails, the plot non-existent and the dialog completely incomprehensible because JAPAN.​
  7. Oh look, another RenPy game about some douchebag beer-bro guy who fucks his entire neighborhood and his own family in some alternate universe where all the women are brainless bimbos and other men simply don't exist.​
  8. Yet another "Last Male on Earth" story. How original!​
  9. The furry breeder game that makes a million dollars a year from Patreon and then people wonder why development stops after six months. It's called "Retiring at age 25" and you idiots made it possible by falling for this scam yet again.​
  10. The bizarre attempt at making a game with actual depth, if by depth one means "incomprehensible complexity and grind with zero instructions."​
  11. That totally amazing concept that never gets past 0.1 alpha (see above).​
  12. The game that gets abandoned for six months to a year, then finally poops out a tiny update once the developer runs out of cocaine money and realizes that people are no longer giving him money on Patreon.​

And finally... #13: The month of development that produces an update that probably took less than two hours.
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,929
No panties at the dinner table

It's pretty much what it says it is. Often times the character doing this will be a slow burner as well.
As seen in:
Shadows Over Manston
A Wife and Mother
Jessica O'News Hard News
and others I'm sure I missed
 
  • Like
Reactions: nln0

MrLakes1579

Member
Mar 1, 2019
207
283
Female Harem Seeker Supporter/Advocate.
A female character who’s positive and supportive of the protagonist being in a harem/polyamorous relationship with multiple lovers, sharing his love all around. If already the protagonist’s girlfriend or main lover, she is not only accepting and cool with the idea of the protagonist being with multiple women, she encourages him to get intimate with them and is mingling with the other women and persuading them on the relationship. High chance she may get intimate with some the women. Of course, with everybody being happy and comfortable in the harem play a factor.
Or if the female character isn’t initially full-on intimate with the protagonist (yet). They likely have agreed to a deal that benefits one another. With the deal including her assisting him getting with other multiple women, by guiding him and/or nudging the girls.
The Female Harem Seeker Supporter may or may not overlap with her being a Cuckquean, a woman who’s aroused by seeing her man have sex with other women.
This is actually one of my favorite tropes. I think I like it best in incest games where this character isn't a member of the family but is either attracted to a family member of the protag or is turned on by the incest and the protag's attractions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sdibolcrif

mecha_froggy

Active Member
Oct 17, 2018
913
1,665
A subtle one, but it's there - especially in Japanese games:

Femdom = Cowgirl Position and nothing more.

Because femdom isn't about a girl tying up a male and pegging him with her whip, oh no, that would be too much... no, for the sexually insecure otaku hentai artist even just letting a girl mount onto your cock and take the lead is an act of complete and total submission to an overbearing hellbitch, because that's what living in a world that is more soft and vanilla than a bag of cotton balls does to strangle one's limits.
 
5.00 star(s) 2 Votes