In the words of Beaver Cleaver: "Kinda, sortuv!"
Though if I had $ for every hour I've spent playing "Big Kuyash", I could fund Avenger for a year. (Spent a lot of time on the "The Humbling Experience" also.)
Porn Game Tropes: The good, the bad, and the fugly
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Though if I had $ for every hour I've spent playing "Big Kuyash", I could fund Avenger for a year. (Spent a lot of time on the "The Humbling Experience" also.)
So, I get what you're saying, but you have to consider other issues there. I think you're reducing things too much. Yes, women do have an eye for social cues when choosing a sexual partner, but in most of these situations, unless there's an NTR theme, the woman in question either doesn't have many options, thinking characters like the mother in Man of the House, or already has a social relationship with the character where he is held in some esteem, i.e. the younger sister who already looks up to him. I can think of plenty of other examples, like for instance, DMD, the daughter doesn't have any other suitors, the only men in her life are the step-dad who's never home, the arranged boyfriend who doesn't have any manners, and her pervy dad who's been corrupting her. So when she finally sees his big cock its natural for her to go on to think about it.
I don't know you, maybe you are a woman who isn't that into the shape of dicks (I'm a pan guy, I feel you there), maybe you're just some dude who reads a lot of pop science articles, but seriously, women have the same animalistic urges as men do. They may not care as much as men about physical attributes of their lover, but that doesn't stop them from lusting after them once they have seen them and already consider them a potential partner, at least subconsciously. Again, the biggest example I can think of for this trope is Man of the House, and your mom doesn't see your horse cock until you've already figured out that she is desperate af for a dick. In that you are supposedly working, as well as showing her that you're responsible around the house. Sure, she's gotta be a little tilted to consider incest, but that's a suspension of disbelief we have to have for any incest game. I don't know. I get the trope, but I don't think its as unbelievable as you think.
Since this is the second time I'm seeing the "character is 18 but looks like a child" gripe I'm gonna have to say something. In every one of these cases the character is 18 only because its illegal in many places to display underage sex even in cartoon form. Even if it's not, it will likely be against the ToS, like Incest now is. For instance, in DMD the daughter is supposedly just ending her Junior year of HS and will be going on to her Senior year in a few weeks. In a real world, unless she's in a Gymnasium or something, she's no older than 17. If the authors could get away with it I have no doubt that none of them would be over 16, and that is only because one of them is supposed to be working.
Similarly, the MC in Big Brother and his sister are supposed to still be in high school. Its obvious that their age is again 18 only to appease the disclaimer. I'd be willing to say, with the sheltered nature of the sister, its likely that she's a freshman and he's a sophomore. That explained, for me, the height differences. I was playing a japanese VM the other day that flat out made fun of this in one scene, wherein the older brother was insulting his washboard lolicon sister, asking why she had the audacity to still look like that in spite of the Diet deciding that they must legally be 20 years old.
Honestly, unless the characters are in college, and actually seen in said college, its safe to assume that any character who is 18 or who's age is not specified but is still in school, is probably on the younger side, between 14 and 17. This is especially true for younger sisters. Daughters have seemingly had a bigger swing, with for instance DMD's daughter appearing to be a well developed 15ish and the daughter in Daughter for Dessert being in college. I find it far more believable in her case that she's as old as the game says. But yeah, sticking to that 18 years old bit is mostly just destructive, as what you're railing against is content but the problem is actually censorship. It would be like getting all fussy over a trope of young male protagonists moving in with a family of girls to avoid the incest censorships.
Man of the House definitely doesn't fall into this category, as the MC is simply already The Creeper. In fact, every character in this story has a "somewhat" believable progression. Little sis is curious and looks up to MC who is all too ready to "hesitantly" help. Big sis, while the least believable progression, is in many ways the most interesting to me, and I'm not even that much of a dom, I simply like the idea of a sister who learns she likes to be dominated after being blackmailed by her little brother. Mom actually has a crisis of faith, refusing to allow herself to believe what she's doing is ok, she seeks out help from some medical forum. If it weren't for the careful manipulation of the MC she wouldn't allow herself to fall to her lust.
DmD doesn't either, as Dad and Daughter haven't seen eachother since she was a little girl. They may as well be strangers. Yes, he has memories of his little girl, but the woman who arrives on his doorstep in the beginning of the game is not his little girl anymore. Similarly, the little girl last saw her father when she was 10 I think. That is well before puberty hit, and so she wasn't around him to have a healthy growth. Still, she isn't immediately smitten with the idea of incest, simply incredibly sheltered and naive. Her progression to romantic, lustful love with her father takes the majority of the first game, and I'd say doesn't actually happen until the Date Night scene where you pretend to be a real couple at that restaurant event. Until then she still sees the man as her father, a doting and somewhat strange father, but her father.
haven't touched the other two yet, so I can't say.
As for myself, I'm actually writing an Incest story for a VN, so while I agree there's a progression people have to go through, it's really not hard to make people succumb to a taboo. It's just a matter of circumstances. A tragic event that brings two already close characters closer, some form of isolation that forces them together, the innocent experimentation of two curious, shy, and repressed siblings, a long separation that allows the characters linked by blood to see one another as complete strangers, etc. Of course, that all goes out the window with a cousin or aunt, where the fact that you didn't grow up in the same house makes you more like childhood friends than family. Sure, it's still incest, but its not psychologically taboo, only socially.
Yes, so much is obvious. The problem with the retards is that often, they don't even behave like 14-16 year olds, but straight up like under 10 year olds. Daughter in DMD is an example for that. If you know 13 year olds in real life, they're already far from innocent, many have had their first boyfriend at that time, and if not, they know a school mate who has, and generally are very curious about sexual things and have been so for at least 2 years.
Lets take the example of Lisa from Big Brother. She's coded to be about 14 years old I guess and is far from clueless about sex, she just has issues getting hard core pornography and doesn't know some more obscure details like how morning wood works. Those are age-appropriate knowledge levels for a 14 year old. She also isn't getting "hypnotized by the cock", at least not until she's choking herself on the damn thing. If we accept that Lisa is 14 years old, it's a realistic character. Daughter however is not. Daughter is not coded to be 14, she jumps from pre-puberty (<9 years old) to mid-puberty (<15) depending on the scene she's in. That makes her a shit character and created the headcanon where her parents are siblings already, to explain her mental retardation.
Mind you, the "retard in lechertown" trope is especially noticeable with characters that are otherwise strictly coded as adults, and simply behave as naively as a 12 year old would when it comes to sexual interactions. Or so retarded no functional human being would ever act that way because even a child would look through stupid attempts of blackmail and trickery and such.
Look, there's always more manly girls and more girly guys, hormone levels are all over the place especially during puberty, there's intersex conditions, and tastes are different. So it is conceivable that there exists a girl who would receive a visual stimulus from seeing horse dick strong enough to provoke a reaction similar to a guy seeing epic tits. Or dicks on a dickgirl. BUT:
What I kinda skimmed over there is that there is indeed a reaction in women to hard dicks, but it works different from guys. Women generally don't react as strongly to pure visual stimulus, but a hard dick can also act as a social cue. The social cue here being "I'm hard because of you" - That is a very strong cue for girls. It's not the hard dick itself, it's that the upon seeing the girl in question, the guy manifested this hardness, that's arousing to the girl. But that isn't how the "Hypnotized by the cock" trope is meant. That trope is strictly for when the girl acts basically like a (gay) guy who gets aroused by seeing a naughty body part of fantastic proportions. Being lusted after is a highly arousing social cue to a girl, and especially teenage girls will play with their immediate (and "safe") male relatives in that manner, teasing and such, to gain experience in how to do it in a safe environment (because brothers and daddies usually won't rape them). Meanwhile, looking at bare body parts is mainly just arousing to guys.
Oh, and I'm a pop sci guy with a long history of being a degenerate, because a lot of pop sci is strictly wrong, and everything needs to be tested out "in the field", i.e. with real girls.
I disagree. Daughter in DmD acts exactly like a girl who grew up in a sheltered environment. If it weren't for Elena she'd likely have had no sexual contact to speak of. Her mother is depicted as overbearing and high on censorship. Having grown up myself in a religiously repressive environment it was very easy for my parents to stunt my sexual growth. Sure, I found porn, but being sheltered as I was, what I looked for was usually rule 34 content of the scantily clad anime girls I saw on tv. It was a lot harder to find in the early 00s than it is now. Most of what I found would be considered Ecchi. I was probably 15 by the time I really understood the insertion aspect of sex, because I never really received "the talk", and my ideas of sex were mostly based on pg-13 hollywood movies or TV-14 scenes on WB/CW shows.
The Daughter in DmD screens, to me at least, as probably actually being about 15. I know the game says she's going to her last year of high school, but with the height differences between her and other female characters and the fact that both her friends are flat chested, I'm fairly certain that they're no older than 15. Combine the fact that she was sheltered like I was with the fact that she's never brought herself to orgasm, a common enough problem for girls, but made worse by the preceding point, and it becomes increasingly believable that she'd be so naive and lacking in curiosity.
That said, I'm not calling her a good character at all. In fact, I think that her being stupid on top of all that makes it really bad. It would be one thing if she was somewhat insightful, for instance, if allowing her the decision when it came to the obviously lecherous photographer would lead to her saying she wasn't comfortable with it, that would add some depth and show that while she's naive she's not stupid. Similarly, it would be nice if, before the story gets rolling and things are already on fire between them, she was a little more proactive. In the beginning she wanted to see her father, sure, but at every point she's reacting. I can't think of a single proactive thing she does in the first game. In the second she does initiate the titjob, but by then you've played through an entire game where you had to drag her along through each step. If she was more proactive she would likely read as less childish and more as an adolescent girl with a crush and daddy issues.
EDIT: I forgot to respond to our actual conversation about worshipping the penis. In my experience the girls who are all about the dick are far and few between, but porn is all about coincidences all aligning to create the perfect storm. I personally do know girls who fantasize about and get aroused by erect penises. I will say though that almost all of them aren't getting any, so maybe that's why.
Hey, I regret to hear such things. You should write a game about that though. And make it authentic, about the authentic experience of being idk 15 and hearing about insertion for the first time, or whatever. Don't try to write about something you don't know nothing about, don't write about being a 15 year old Chad who slays all the pussy at school. DMD is written by a russian I think, where incest is literally legal. Myself, I'm from western Europe and by the time I was 12, my biology books were very explicit, so I can't really relate. Nowadays, teenage kids have seen more porn than most 50+ people have seen in their life, and even 10 year olds get endless dick pics and explicit offers in social media. I'm not saying this is great, that's just how it is.
To me it seems more like 12-13, proper flat chested or mosquito bite chested loli, as envisioned by a guy who has no idea about how lewd 13 year olds may actually act. When we're talking about girls older than 13, flat chests are very much the exception. I heard that originally, Daughter was supposed to be a literal, flat chested loli, until the legal aspects forced a change. Her flat friends are simply a remnant of the original design. Forcing a 12 year old to sometimes be 18 is a large reason for the schizophrenic character of Daughter, but more important is that it's just shit writing because not even 12 year olds would be as stupid and clueless as Daughter is. That's why she's a retard in lechertown with the MC as the creeping Gentleman.
That's just that - talk. Girls typically try to induce arousal in guys by showing off their body, but if that body is of a nature where they would never catch a guy with it (fatties and generic uggos) they develop other strategies. Men who aren't in their 20ies anymore aren't as easy to get hard, thus even conventionally attractive women would be well advised to practice alternate strategies, Talking dirty is merely one such strategy, and talking about being a huge, cock-worshipping slut is gonna work on a lot of guys. But talk is just that, talk, talk that is meant to induce arousal, which in turn creates the same sort of narcissist arousal in the shit talking girl. As a gurl you have to get the guy hard. If that happens by him looking at your naughty bits (if you look the part) or by talking shit to him, or debasing yourself etc, for the girl it's important that she can get a guy hard for her. Not being able to get a guy hard can be quite a problem for a girl, one of core reproductive and thus evolutionary relevance, you see.
For a guy, it's much less important to get a girl aroused - if you stick it in, she'll get wet soon enough. For a girl, in comparison, not just her reproductive success but her literal life may depend on getting a guy hard, evolutionarily speaking. For guys it's more important that the girl is in a general state of arousal to begin with - hormonally fertile - and displays this fertility by e.g. debasing herself. This is interestingly a "social cue" that can get both men and women equally horny.
You seem to have a very odd view of women. Its like a patriarchy approved version of feminism. You acknowledge their sexuality while using language like "debasing" as if its somehow wrong for them to be sexual.
As to DMD, if she was supposed to, originally, be just as flat as her friends, then yeah, you're right she's probably meant to skew younger. I was adding age for the development of her body. As to worshiping the dick... I totally get what you're saying. I'm not even denying that you've actually accurately depicted the female side of mating. I simply think that in most instances of the dick worship trope that dick they are worshiping is attached to a man that they find attractive. It seems, in my experience, to usually be something that affects mothers more than sisters, in my experience, so maybe that's why I'm having such a hard time accepting it, as I don't have a thing for mothers.
I have seen it in other media, incest manga tends to play with it some... again mostly with mothers. Idk. Maybe its because I'm more of a siscon that I haven't seen it as often, so I'm rejecting it from lack of experience.
Hey, I resent that. I'm trying to be descriptive and explicit, I'm not expressing a moral judgement either way.
I know from IRL contacts that a certain brand of mother would "play" with the infants penis. Before my medical studies, it struck me as a situation where a sexually more inexperienced, yet curious woman (not so inexperienced as not to be a mother) would find a penis she can play with without the danger of its owner immediately demanding to sex, so the motivation is not necessarily incestuous sexual desire, but simply making the changing of the diapers slightly more interesting.
However, as I learned in med school, there was also, for a time, in the medical profession routinely the explicit suggestion made by doctors to mothers, that to ensure the motility of the foreskin in infants and young boys, to "prevent phimosis", as an alternative to circumcision, she should regularly try to retract the sons foreskin, such as when changing diapers or bathing. (Medical advice: Do not do this! I'm dead serious, this horrible advice is beyond outdated. Retracting the foreskin of a prepubescent boy may cause lasting damage and scarring) hence there is a rather surprisingly large number of men who retain some memories of their mothers habitually "playing" with their wee wee when they were small boys, or conversely, mothers discovering with surprise that even infants can have hardons. This mode of "inadvertent", as in "innocent" and medically motivated "sexual abuse" by the mother, may be most frequent in countries that do not routinely circumcise, and yet were, medically speaking, in the american sphere of influence (east asia, i.e. japan that you mentioned, and western europe asd well) but is still not the sort of "hypnotized by the cock", male gaze type, body part-specific, visual stimulus-arousal response that the trope talks about.
tl;dr: Mothers that play with their sonnies ding dong are more frequent than you think, but for reasons that may surprise you.
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Every one of those characters started out not into their relatives for 18 years, then suddenly cant wait to bone them. F from DMD you are right perhaps, but still within a month wants to bone his daughter, its just that it took a year to get to that point so it felt longer. They even say they are not, usually with the other being the aggressor (except for DmD) and no, I wouldn't believe any of them to be even a hint of true.
The time it usually takes for them to make the switch is days usually, just stretched out by the short content + long dev cycle of these types of games.
At least one of those characters isn't actually 18. The son might be, but considering his character model is the same as the one in Big Brother I have a hard time seeing him as older than 16. So, in reality, assuming you take the little sister first, its somewhat believable. Again, he was already the creeper. The older sister's line is, as I said, the least believable to me, and that's because the blackmail itself is pretty weak. He would need much stronger blackmail to dominate her that way. Again, as for the mom, she has to be convinced by a "psychologist" that she's not doing something wrong.
Its a suspension of disbelief that you have to have for incest. If you don't like it, I guess you can play as the roommate that happens to get the young girl in the house to trust him enough to have sex with him, blackmail and dominate the older girl, and somehow get intimate enough with the mother that he's able to give her massages in the living room where her children could enter at any moment. Honestly, incest seems much more plausible.
That said, I'm not actually defending Man of the House, its a pretty basic game with somewhat decent renders. It is one of the games that pissed me off so much that I'm working on my own script for a game in response. I think we can do better, so rather than complain I'll praise what it did right, the build up to each characters individual progression (minus the banal tasks in between) is engaging in a fantastic way. Then I'll use what I learned from its weaknesses and failures, the banal tasks, the repetition that reduces even the sex acts to banal tasks, and the cockteasing to keep the money flowing, to make sure what I create is better in comparison.
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Arguing about realism of basically any incest game is missing a point really. They're based on tropes and huge amount of suspension of disbelief to provide their setting. It's more on a fantasy side of fetishes. DMD daughter is 18 with mentality of 10. She doesn't have any idea about sexuality even tho her friend is a slut and she's hot. She has to have tons of guys after her but she still prefer her perverted, good for nothing father. No one sane can think like that. In MotH there's not really anything to talk about as it's typical harem and they don't make any sense even without incest. With incest it's just an elven reality and that's nothing bad. Not everything has to be realistic and most fetishes don't even try it. It's ok to use some popular tropes if they're done in a fine way
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Look the trope is just simply about how the MC states they dont have a thing for their family but suddenly do. The MC can be a creeper AND suddenly into incest. But the MC almost always makes it clear in the beginning that they aren't into it but suddenly seeing a family member naked makes them want it. Thats it. Doesn't really need people defending the games involved, its just funny.
I like both MotH and DMD, but ffs ppl defend this shit far too much. Tropes are just funny realizations about things that happen too often in stories.
I like both MotH and DMD, but ffs ppl defend this shit far too much. Tropes are just funny realizations about things that happen too often in stories.
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But is that even avoidable in incest games? To avoid it story would have to develop throughout a years of ingame time to make sense from male perspective if he lived with his family. So I find it natural that basically every game in this genre has MC who suddenly starts to look at his sisters/mother in sexual way even tho he has seen them for years. Adult games don't have such a luxury to develop in natural manner but this particular trope is hard to avoid in a believable way. Ofc unless MC is known for being a mental pervert for years (Max)
The Anti White Girl
I'm not sure if this is a fantasy of developers or a remnant of their need to make these characters exceedingly innocent, but I've noticed a lot of games that feature an 18 year or older white girl who has never tried or liked coffee. This is found out in a scene where of course the MC offers her a cup. Examples I can think of off the top of my head include My Sweet Neighbor, Dual Family, Blooming Love, and My Girlfriend's Amnesia, I'm sure there are more.
Its a little thing, but considering the very normal reality of teenage girls being addicted to starbucks I find it jarring every time I'm introduced to an adult female character who's never had or liked coffee. It might stick out more to me since most of the last 10 years saw me serving coffee from various jobs, but every time I'm just like, bullshit.
I don't think I've ever seen this trope (I only played Dual Family of your list though) but my initial reaction is that it's probably a Russian trope, where Tea & poverty are common. I don't think the title fits at all though, in our present day and age, I was expecting some kind of BLACKED /pol/ trope.
I was thinking Anti-BasicBitch, but I don't actually think that the fact that most people enjoy a good cup of coffee is enough to call someone basic. That said, it is a White Girl thing, just as the han solo look in the fall and winter is. I definitely suggest you play My Sweet Neighbors though. Its one of my favorites. My Girlfriend's Amnesia has such an interesting plot that I'm playing it in spite of its broken use of the RPGM format
I really don't understand the "basic bitch" meme. Are there bitches that aren't basic? What's the meaning here?
My Girlfriends Amnesia turned me off because it sounds to me like one of those games where all the girls are retarded and/or passive and that trope is a pet peeve of mine. I prefer my girls proactive, shrewd, and shameless.
Honestly I'm the same, thats exactly why I really liked My Sweet Neighbors. As for MGA I had similar fears, especially because of how dark a game with this premise can get. However while your girlfriend needs to be romanced every single day, the other girls in this game just wanna fuck the shit out of you. There are three girls in the picture on the page, the blonde is your girlfriends twin, she's flirting with you immediately and trying to jump your bones by day two. The Brunette is a girl who you meet in the library who give you her number. If you call her on day two she forces you to eat her out in public. Then, I've ended day one and two as a gentleman and girlfriend has fucked me both times. So no, they aren't passive.
The main frustration for me is that the game is a visual novel. Its all about choices. But, being RPGM format you can only save if you're in the pixelated rpg mode. You can't pause and save before every decision. Furthermore, there is no actionable use to the RPGM itself, at least not yet. You walk from location to location, but it's just a framework to move from one scene to another, not an actual world to explore.
As to the basic bitch meme, it has nothing to do with bitch as a derogatory term. Its bitch more in the sense that black people call one another <removed>. It's more about the basic part. About how the things they do are so predictable and exactly what everyone stereotype of a girl is. So for instance, 5 or 6 years ago, the basic bitches all had 1 million duckface photos. Nowadays they all use the Dog filter on Snapchat to show you their makeup and their latte.
A thing like that should be better explained by its opposite or negation. But what is the opposite of the duckfacing snapchat dog filter girl? The super special pretentious snowflake? That is not a thing to aspire to be either, those special snowflakes are just as basic as the rest of them. Thus my question: What bitches aren't basic? They all are.