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Elli Wölfin

Newbie
Dec 8, 2019
64
147
I'm gonna have to disagree with both of you.

Ubiystvo. You're being unfair. We've already seen some changes with Kyo, as I've pointed out. In later interactions, the player is allowed to call her out on her behavior and call her bluff when she tries to force a sex scene. This is as opposite to the kidnapping scenario as we can get. And from that point on, she isn't nearly as rabid in her attempts to belittle the player as she was before. She now comes across as more snide and arrogant rather than unreasoning hatred, with a few hints that seem to me like she might be genuinely hurt by how her attitude has pushed the PC to be angry and distrusting towards her. Some good character development there. But it does show that the dev is trying to fix things as they go forward rather than altering existing scenes in any way, which could lead to some inconsistent behavior, but also result in less time being used up changing past scenes rather than continuing the story. I'm okay with this. Not only is the dev considering criticism, but too many games end up in limbo only to be abandoned because the dev kept going backwards rather than pushing forward.

RHFlash. Bullying a dev is one thing, but you are a little too defensive of this whole thing. There needs to be a balance. If a dev makes a mistake, which this dev has admitted was a mistake, it should be called out. More than that, it should be explained why it was a mistake, what the various perspectives on it are, and there should be a discussion on how it could have been done better. That is called criticism. Is there a point where someone should just go play something different? Yes, popping into a Fem Protag thread just to bitch about how you don't play as a dude, that doesn't really help anyone. But that doesn't mean devs should just get a free pass to do whatever they want and no one should ever say anything about it because 'go play another game.' The only thing as damaging to an artist of any kind as destructive criticism, is a hug-box. Destructive criticism can hurt an artist's moral and desire to keep working, but if no one is willing to give any criticism, the artist and their skill stagnates, for an artist cannot improve if they didn't know they made a mistake in the first place.

And a character like Eleanor, that deserves some criticism, and I'm calm and collected now. She is a character that, in an otherwise great game, comes in while the PC is at her lowest point, gets partnered with the PC for the foreseeable future, forms a budding romance with the PC, after being given a roof over her head and a speech about how the PC was in the same seemingly helpless position, is pretty much the only non-antagonistic force with a face in the game up to this point, and generally becomes an anchor in a harsh situation. She is a character that a lot of players would have an emotional investment in at this point, then she betrays the PC in favor of her cartoonishly cruel abuser, whatever Eleanor thinks of Kyo, it should be obvious how those Players, and by extension how those Players think the PC, might feel about such an action. The fact that the PC so quickly forgives what is a substantial breach in trust doesn't do Eleanor's comparisons to a Mary Sue any favors. To try and give a comparison; I would equate it to game having your lover sell you to slavery, but it is okay because she really needed the money for college, so don't be mad at her.

There isn't just a breach of trust, but a breach of internal consistency. Points A, B, C, D, E, and F just don't mesh well. I'll keep this simple.
A. Eleanor likes and trusts the PC, and the PC is training Eleanor.
B. Kyo is abusive of the PC.
C. Kyo is blatant in her abuse of the PC, especially in front of Eleanor.
D. The PC tells Eleanor about how cruel Kyo is and how much she hates having been treated like this for years.
E. Eleanor forcibly brings the PC back to Kyo, so Eleanor can be trained by Kyo.
F. The PC forgives Eleanor, despite Eleanor never even acknowledging that she did something wrong.
Something here is wrong. The actors are showing through their masks. It is clear to see that the kidnapping scene only exists because the futa-potion needed to be introduced, but there are other ways it could have been done. There are numerous ways to fix this. Maybe have Kyo use the potion on Eleanor if she failed to retrieve the PC and Eleanor asks if the PC can make one, or make it so Kyo is always on her best behavior around Eleanor, or have her constantly give complements to Eleanor that serve a subtle insult to the PC, or have Eleanor not be so complacent about how awfully the PC is treated, or even just have Eleanor say something after leaving Kyo's training about how she doesn't think the PC is useless.

Personally, I think the best way to go about it that wouldn't involve going back and changing anything would be to have a confrontation somewhere down the line, where the PC gets a chance to call her out for being so callous and selfish, and always taking Kyo's side rather than caring about her friend/lover. Eleanor, being naive, always adhering to authority, and absolutely sure that Kyo really does care about the PC, might not have realized how it looks to the PC until then and tries to make amends for her actions. Even if she still doesn't think she did anything wrong, she would realize how it looks like she did from the PC's perspective and try to make things right.

Boom, apology scene. One scene is all it takes to completely change how the Player sees a character, as we've seen with the kidnapping.
That is what I was trying to get across that I feel should be added, just something addressing that scene at all. I don't know if Kyo's new scene was influenced by the reaction towards it, but I've assumed not. I only assume that the dev has no intention to change their plans at all due to their liking all of RHFlash's repeated "find a different game" comments when anyone dislikes anything in the game.
And, RHFlash, despite you clearly not giving the slightest fuck about anything I ever try to say, but it's "she" not "he".
 

RoadGork

Member
Dec 16, 2017
123
195
Thank you, I try. I like to give objective and hopefully constructive criticisms, like I hope people will do to me once my own game is out. But, as far as any of you know, I'm still only human, and don't think as clearly when something genuinely upsets me.
You gave a reasonable point and actually a good compromise, without being too pushy about it. I just hope Eleanor wont be brought up because of this bagundus again, poor girl have suffered enough.
 

fearsa

Newbie
Aug 6, 2017
40
192
Wait so I just played through this and you're a powerful wizard kidnapped by someone you think is your friend and you don't have the opportunity to chunk her with a fireball at a later point? Instead I have to go to the gym with her? Wow, now I know the boys must feel when they play one of those beta-cuck ntr games.
 
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RoadGork

Member
Dec 16, 2017
123
195
That is what I was trying to get across that I feel should be added, just something addressing that scene at all. I don't know if Kyo's new scene was influenced by the reaction towards it, but I've assumed not. I only assume that the dev has no intention to change their plans at all due to their liking all of RHFlash's repeated "find a different game" comments when anyone dislikes anything in the game.
And, RHFlash, despite you clearly not giving the slightest fuck about anything I ever try to say, but it's "she" not "he".
Here is a tip for you, you assumed it too aggressive. Give game a time, before assuming anything. Patience is a virtue sometimes. And sorry for preaching too much, but creator made a step to introduce game here for free, and haven't done anything for releasing the patron version here, so at least we can do, is to be polite. We already live in too aggressive world, so at least here lets keep things civil.
 
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NecroBunnyStudios

Active Member
Game Developer
Jan 23, 2020
713
2,354
So, lots and lots of things. Where do I even begin...

Well, first and foremost I do hear all feedback we get, I won't necessarily act on it all, but I do like to know how the game is being perceived. And, yes Kyo's new scene has been influenced by the feedback we received, I originally planned for Catherine to be at her master's mercy for longer, but people complained about not being able to stand up for themselves, I thought it was a valid point and I added that to the game.

As to the whole Eleanor kidnapping thing, I already admitted that it was poorly done on my part, I take some solace in the fact that if people are getting this upset about it, I'm probably doing something right with the writing. But, that whole scene was approached from a point of view that I understood the consequences of those actions but I did not make them clear enough. Kyo wanted Catherine to come, she used Eleanor to get her. If Catherine had not come, Kyo would have gone to get her. Catherine understands that and can't really be all that upset with Eleanor about it, though I never made it clear, which is totally my fault.

The whole kidnapping scene, I said it already I thought it was funny, I wrote it to be funny. I suppose that might be a problem with tone, I can't be writing a serious story at one point and then suddenly transition to cartoonish humor. I realize that now, and I will be more careful moving forward. I know I'm not answering everyone all the time, but I am reading everything here and I am making the adjustments I find fair. I won't remove Eleanor from the story, nor will I add options to be hostile to Eleanor all the time, she and Catherine are a team and are stuck together. I'm sorry if the scene felt horrible to you, but I really can't hope to please everyone with everything. And, for as many people that complained about Eleanor, there were just as many people that like her, there are even people that really like Kyo and Jean!

This is getting pretty long already, but I understand that people are complaining because they like the game, or at the very least want to like the game. So, I'm really sorry that the scene left a sour taste in your mouth, but I would like to remind you that the story is nowhere close to done, there is a lot about each of these characters that are still to be revealed. And, I can't promise I will never write something like this again, but I can promise that I will try my hardest to allow for the player to have more agency and not get forced in situations despite their choices.
 

RoadGork

Member
Dec 16, 2017
123
195
Wait so I just played through this and you're a powerful wizard kidnapped by someone you think is your friend and you don't have the opportunity to chunk her with a fireball at a later point? Instead I have to go to the gym with her? Wow, now I know the boys must feel when they play one of those beta-cuck ntr games.
You saw how magic working, it is not an absolute protection. About second, enough been said.
 

RoadGork

Member
Dec 16, 2017
123
195
So, lots and lots of things. Where do I even begin...

Well, first and foremost I do hear all feedback we get, I won't necessarily act on it all, but I do like to know how the game is being perceived. And, yes Kyo's new scene has been influenced by the feedback we received, I originally planned for Catherine to be at her master's mercy for longer, but people complained about not being able to stand up for themselves, I thought it was a valid point and I added that to the game.

As to the whole Eleanor kidnapping thing, I already admitted that it was poorly done on my part, I take some solace in the fact that if people are getting this upset about it, I'm probably doing something right with the writing. But, that whole scene was approached from a point of view that I understood the consequences of those actions but I did not make them clear enough. Kyo wanted Catherine to come, she used Eleanor to get her. If Catherine had not come, Kyo would have gone to get her. Catherine understands that and can't really be all that upset with Eleanor about it, though I never made it clear, which is totally my fault.

The whole kidnapping scene, I said it already I thought it was funny, I wrote it to be funny. I suppose that might be a problem with tone, I can't be writing a serious story at one point and then suddenly transition to cartoonish humor. I realize that now, and I will be more careful moving forward. I know I'm not answering everyone all the time, but I am reading everything here and I am making the adjustments I find fair. I won't remove Eleanor from the story, nor will I add options to be hostile to Eleanor all the time, she and Catherine are a team and are stuck together. I'm sorry if the scene felt horrible to you, but I really can't hope to please everyone with everything. And, for as many people that complained about Eleanor, there were just as many people that like her, there are even people that really like Kyo and Jean!

This is getting pretty long already, but I understand that people are complaining because they like the game, or at the very least want to like the game. So, I'm really sorry that the scene left a sour taste in your mouth, but I would like to remind you that the story is nowhere close to done, there is a lot about each of these characters that are still to be revealed. And, I can't promise I will never write something like this again, but I can promise that I will try my hardest to allow for the player to have more agency and not get forced in situations despite their choices.
Congrats on getting close to your first patreon goal, and glad to see that you are not going for pleasing everyone and sacrificing your original view and ideas. And thank you for public release with bugfixes, gonna look at it tomorrow (or today depending on time zones heh)
 

NecroBunnyStudios

Active Member
Game Developer
Jan 23, 2020
713
2,354
The slider wont work for me for some reason
I'm not sure why that might be, it works fine on my end. I asked a few more people and they all said it was working properly.

Coming largely from a different community based around interactive stories (as this game is) where the writers/developers actively want feedback and suggestions on things to improve/change, it seems really shitty to me to be entirely unwilling to add or change anything when there has been such visceral reactions towards Eleanor. I wouldn't be surprised if this were just a porn game with an excuse plot, but this is an actual story that also has erotic/porn elements. Even just being able to stop flirting/get out of the relationship would be enough; at least it'd be something. I get having a story in mind, but given there's a choice to initiate flirting/a relationship, I don't think getting out of it is asking much at all (granted, I also do not think it is asking much to bring up the kidnapping, but that is more work).
The only scene that was forced was the first futa scene, it was done very early in development, and we were still getting to grips with the whole visual novel thing, and even there you can not have sex if Eleanor if you want. But, aside from that, all sex scenes are optional. Even flirting with Eleanor is optional, I think there is not a single scene where there is active flirting without an option first. And, that is actually a lot of work because all of the flirtings with Eleanor have two versions, one where they are lovers and another where they are not.
 

NecroBunnyStudios

Active Member
Game Developer
Jan 23, 2020
713
2,354
Congrats on getting close to your first patreon goal, and glad to see that you are not going for pleasing everyone and sacrificing your original view and ideas. And thank you for public release with bugfixes, gonna look at it tomorrow (or today depending on time zones heh)
Thank you, we're really happy about all the support we are getting! :giggle:
And, we have every intention of posting all the public releases here, support is nice because it helps us to pay the bills and keep making the game better, but at the end of the day we just love developing games and want to share them with as many people as possible!
 

RHFlash

Active Member
Apr 4, 2018
698
945
RHFlash. Bullying a dev is one thing, but you are a little too defensive of this whole thing. There needs to be a balance. If a dev makes a mistake, which this dev has admitted was a mistake, it should be called out. More than that, it should be explained why it was a mistake, what the various perspectives on it are, and there should be a discussion on how it could have been done better. That is called criticism. Is there a point where someone should just go play something different? Yes, popping into a Fem Protag thread just to bitch about how you don't play as a dude, that doesn't really help anyone. But that doesn't mean devs should just get a free pass to do whatever they want and no one should ever say anything about it because 'go play another game.' The only thing as damaging to an artist of any kind as destructive criticism, is a hug-box. Destructive criticism can hurt an artist's moral and desire to keep working, but if no one is willing to give any criticism, the artist and their skill stagnates, for an artist cannot improve if they didn't know they made a mistake in the first place.
Right, but it's an issue of tone. You can present your problems in a cohesive and fair way, and that can be filed under constructive criticism and that's fine. But the type of language a person chooses matters. There's a big difference between dialogue like "I think the kidnapping scene went a little too far and I think it's jarring in the context of the story" and "Eleanor is a bitch; it's shitty of the developer to not let me leave her in a ditch". I wouldn't recommend one to go play a different game if you make the first argument, but if you're using language like the second example then that's what you're going to get recommended. That, as you said, is "destructive criticism", and that's what I responded to. This game deserves fair criticism as much as anything else. However, if someone's going to go on hate rants about the game, and then demand the developer to change it based off of that hate rant, that's not fair criticism, and it's not going to be treated as such. My personal opinion was that the kidnapping scene was funny and it doesn't need to be changed, and Eleanor's character is fine as it is. You can make the argument that it's not and that's perfectly okay, but as I've said before, outrageous demands like removing her from the game or writing "you're a bitch" retorts for everything she says are obviously ridiculous and aren't fair criticism.
 
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Hmm...

Member
Oct 26, 2017
143
425
outrageous demands like removing her from the game or writing "you're a bitch" retorts for everything she says are obviously ridiculous and aren't fair criticism.
I hope you realize that constantly referring to that exact part of my first reply, that I myself said was a heat of the moment thing and shouldn't be considered in that very same reply, is getting to the point of straw-manning, right? I gave many better examples as to what could be done about this. I'm just hoping that the kidnapping thing isn't going to be completely brushed under the rug. As the dev said, the story is far from done. This is another wonderful thing about Player agency and choices. A lot of players want this to lead, somewhere. Some form of closure about this event or Eleanor's compliance with Kyo's actions by the time the story is all said and done. If you thought it was funny and have nothing wrong with the actions taken, then I don't see why you should be forced to confront her about her actions.

So, lots and lots of things. Where do I even begin...

Well, first and foremost I do hear all feedback we get, I won't necessarily act on it all, but I do like to know how the game is being perceived. And, yes Kyo's new scene has been influenced by the feedback we received, I originally planned for Catherine to be at her master's mercy for longer, but people complained about not being able to stand up for themselves, I thought it was a valid point and I added that to the game.

As to the whole Eleanor kidnapping thing, I already admitted that it was poorly done on my part, I take some solace in the fact that if people are getting this upset about it, I'm probably doing something right with the writing. But, that whole scene was approached from a point of view that I understood the consequences of those actions but I did not make them clear enough. Kyo wanted Catherine to come, she used Eleanor to get her. If Catherine had not come, Kyo would have gone to get her. Catherine understands that and can't really be all that upset with Eleanor about it, though I never made it clear, which is totally my fault.

The whole kidnapping scene, I said it already I thought it was funny, I wrote it to be funny. I suppose that might be a problem with tone, I can't be writing a serious story at one point and then suddenly transition to cartoonish humor. I realize that now, and I will be more careful moving forward.
An issue with Tone would definitely explain a lot. Kyo as a character was far too brutal for cartoonish humor. In all honesty, I would give up if I was in the PC's position. It seems like it is genuinely the best option. Kyo can just get her whenever she wants any way, and seems like she would totally be willing to just mutilate her within an inch of her life and constantly revive her until she does what Kyo wants. Being unable to escape, will be constantly tortured if not obedient, even have your friends manipulated and turned against you, and all while being treated like trash that doesn't deserve to live. What is that but slavery with extra steps? There doesn't seem to be anything holding Kyo back, nothing to prevent her from doing whatever she wants as long as another noble isn't involved. The PC is already a slave in a terrible position. Honesty, I'd sell myself to the pompous douche. I'll never be powerful enough to fight off Kyo and prevent her constant torment, and at the very least he just wants to fuck me.

You've made an odd situation with that character. Winning is the worst option. The Player needs protection from the 'mentor' character most of all. Being the concubine of the soon-to-be Emperor? Sounds like a good deal by comparison, and would give protection from the overwhelming threat of Kyo.

This isn't as much an issue in later scenes, as I've explained a few times now. The new Kyo works so much better, but the original version was just too much. I think that is what ruined the humor of the kidnapping scene for me and others. I've seen similar scenes in other games and shows, and it was funny there. Here? It just doesn't fit the tone with that monster.

Edit: Correction; It does fit the tone with that monster, but in the worst way. She was a seemingly omnipotent sadist with no moral compass, no other mages of similar power, or even laws to keep her in check besides 'Obey the Emperor'. That doesn't make for a light-hearted scenario. If we had this more subdued Kyo from the start, one that does back off when pushed and seems to actually care about the PC, I doubt the scene would have been so poorly recieved.
 
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ZxCamyZx

Newbie
May 14, 2018
67
19
I'm not sure why that might be, it works fine on my end. I asked a few more people and they all said it was working properly.



The only scene that was forced was the first futa scene, it was done very early in development, and we were still getting to grips with the whole visual novel thing, and even there you can not have sex if Eleanor if you want. But, aside from that, all sex scenes are optional. Even flirting with Eleanor is optional, I think there is not a single scene where there is active flirting without an option first. And, that is actually a lot of work because all of the flirtings with Eleanor have two versions, one where they are lovers and another where they are not.
I got it to work nvm thanks anyways :)
 
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asgardtipar2

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2018
1,185
614
Wait so is it meant to end with MC getting enslaved? Also how do I unlock all the scenes?
 

NecroBunnyStudios

Active Member
Game Developer
Jan 23, 2020
713
2,354
Wait so is it meant to end with MC getting enslaved? Also how do I unlock all the scenes?
That happens because a new month started and you didn't have enough money to pay the interest of Catherine's debt. It's a bit crude at the moment but we will have an interface to show that in the next release. There is more than enough time to finish it all before the first month is over, so just don't sleep before finishing the second quest and you should have enough money to pay for the interest. Or, just use the cheat menu to get more money. ;)
 

Orannis

Member
Nov 8, 2019
287
131
That happens because a new month started and you didn't have enough money to pay the interest of Catherine's debt. It's a bit crude at the moment but we will have an interface to show that in the next release. There is more than enough time to finish it all before the first month is over, so just don't sleep before finishing the second quest and you should have enough money to pay for the interest. Or, just use the cheat menu to get more money. ;)
Will there be a path if sold into slavery that you can be bought up by the Mary Sue? Makes a deal with teacher to gain money needed. Then carry on playing the game as her slave?
 
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