Ren'Py Rogue-like: Evolution [v1.61e] [Oni]

[kiberkiller]

I'm very annoyed at how this is one of the extremely few porn games that isn't just a VN with a treadmill attached to it, like 99% of all porn games, but it's being developed by an extremely incompetent developer so it's never actually going to fucking get anywhere in it's development.

I really wish he'd just stop adding new girls and focus on adding more depth to the game, but I know that it's not going to happen because that would mean more complex code and he's not capable of that.

 

[aesir150]

You guys say that, but the patreon is pretty active and it's filled with overwhelming positive reception for these changes. As far as I can tell, the number of paid subscribers hasn't really budged since I've joined it. Like, if I were a neutral third party, new to both the game and this thread and I read the comments on his patreon and then the things people say here, the conclusion I would have is that the people here are complaining because the game is not *exactly*, down to the pixel, what they're hoping to get.

There are always people who are willing to accept slop, then there are always those who are delusional and think things can get better.

You sound like the former.

You can't dispute the fact Oni's work has been dropping in quality. Look at his old normal stand alone art and then look at what he has churned out in this game.

You can't deny that Emma's face is literally just Kitty's face that was copy and pasted with a few things recolored with the paint bucket tool.

Look at Gwen's art. You can tell there is 0 consistency her various different poses, her body portions are completely out of wack between every pose. If Oni actually cared they wouldn't look that way. You can compare that to Rogue (in version 1.54c and prior), Laura, and Jean's art who for the most part have consistent body proportions in every pose.

Emma, Gwen, Storm, Betsy are really poorly drawn and inconsistent. I won't comment on Doreen cause I haven't and won't touch her with a 100 foot pole, so I have no idea what her sex poses look like.

Also people keep buying shovelware COD games, people keep buying Total War games that are buggy and keep regressing in features and quality, people keep buying EA live service games, they keep buying Adobe subscriptions despite them barely ever adding anything and keep jacking up the prices, people keep buying Microsoft Office and Windows licences despite the fact that they keep adding more bloatware and spyware, etc...

There are a ton of mindless consumers who accept whatever slop is handed them.

Rogue Like started off as a unique game and still is unique in the sense that its one of the only hentai games that lets you get into the action right away without a bunch of pointless grinding or stupid mini games, and lets you control the sex scenes in real time instead of just a still image. Those of us who have stuck around for a decade now simply wanted more girls at the same quality as Rogue.

You can look at Null Hypothesis, you see their art team actually cares about making sure their art is consistent. And I personally don't even like Null Hypothesis since their art looks like AI art to me, and all the girls have the same exact face, and I think the game falls into the category of too much pointless grind that the average visual novel / dating sim has. But that is the level or art consistency I expect Oni to churn out, considering he has always been an artist first and a programmer second. But instead we are getting the worst of both worlds from Oni at the moment, low quality art and incompetent spaghetti code.

The point here is we know Oni can draw better art than what he is putting in this game. I have seen Oni's stand alone art with variation of some of the characters that are in this game which look way better, I know he can draw proper sex poses, I know he can do proper shading.

Maybe Oni just isn't competent enough to handle the consistency and complexity needed for animations that require multiple poses of a character instead a one off picture. Similar to how a restaurant might be able to make single portions of something on their menu perfect each time, but when you order a party tray size they deliver something that is completely inedible cause they have no clue on how to scale up the recipe properly. Though I doubt it since he has drawn thousands of hentai pictures pretty consistently, so I am sure he can do better if he wanted to.

 

[aesir150]

I'm scrolling through the comments looking for any complains and, honestly, having a hard time finding any. No high praise either but no complaints. I think most people there just know that there might be girls that's not to their taste and that's okay. Not everything has to be for them.

There were a ton of complaints about Doreen, and all the other girls.

You have been on F95 for a long time. You should realize that F95 mods come into threads and nuke whole pages of comments sometimes when things get heated or off topic. Not to mention this thread is 1877 pages long with lots of random conversation. Highly doubt you manage to read all the complaints other than a few surface level ones.

Also 70% of the conversation is always about which girl is next, which easily buries the conversations about the actual art quality, especially since Oni never rolls out all the poses in 1 update but breaks them up into 2-3 updates that are 6 months apart. Not to mention there isn't much discussion about the art quality after initial complaints because most of us realize there is nothing we can do about it. Oni is his own boss and isn't held accountable to anyone, so if he decides to turn out low quality stuff, there is no one there to tell him no. There are tons of games that are either abandoned, or just straight up milking it that have consistently high patreons like Pandorium.

Also the standing art is always generally always good (or at least fine) in my opinion even if I don't like the character design, and that is generally all people see and vote on. It is the sex poses that are the abominations cause of how low quality they are or how completely inconsistent the proportions are. For instance Jubilee had a ton of complaints about her feet literally covering up her pussy and ass during the sex poses. I remember Jubilee also had to have her pussy completely changed because of how it was drawn when first released. Can't remember who but one of the girls had a detached floating pussy when they were first released, I think it was Jean, which Oni had to completely redo like 3 updates later after the fact.

Oni also has the habit of randomly changing stuff without mentioning it in the change logs where he often retroactively changes the shading on certain body parts and makes it slowly worse and worse (Rogue, Kitty, Jubilee are all notable victims of this). Similar to how George Lucas kept randomly retroactively adding more CGI abominations to each release of Star Wars.

 

[aesir150]

Also just for reference you can take a look at most of Oni's stand alone art.

Here on

You must be registered to see the links

Compare the shading, poses, and body proportions.

He knows how to do shading really well. He has no problems with drawing different poses and body shapes consistently. He knows how to draw different art styles and different body types.

Then look at what we got in game. It often times feels like an artist collaboration where a different artist or random intern drew each pose instead of an artist of Oni's caliber drawing everything.

Gwen is the most egregious example of it.

Kind of like this video.

Spoiler: The Vampair multiple artist project

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[\\_Tremolo_//]

"several months from now"

View attachment 4619876

 

[DBongus]

Also just for reference you can take a look at most of Oni's stand alone art.

Here on

You must be registered to see the links

Compare the shading, poses, and body proportions.

He knows how to do shading really well. He has no problems with drawing different poses and body shapes consistently. He knows how to drop different art styles and different body types.

Then look at what we got in game. It often times feels like an artist collaboration where a different artist or random intern drew each pose instead of an artist of Oni's caliber drawing everything.

Gwen is the most egregious example of it.

Kind of like this video.

Spoiler: The Vampair multiple artist project

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This can all be explained because Oni learned digital art by winging it and tracing over real porn. He didn't go through the grueling learning process most artists do so doing a basic exercise

Spoiler: like this

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is completely out of his reach. This is why the girls look like completely different characters whenever they slightly tilt their head one way or the other.
But regardless, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I feel like the game is spinning its wheels too much and it's reaching the point where it's no longer salvageable.

 

[fakinami]

Hey prof. Felt like taking a little walk, er so to speak? Fine day, innit?

Spoiler: ok now it's getting weird

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running latest on joiplay, after the "microtransactions" event

 

[C00merboy]

Hey prof. Felt like taking a little walk, er so to speak? Fine day, innit?
View attachment 4620972

Spoiler: ok now it's getting weird

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running latest on joiplay, after the "microtransactions" event

You know what he wants give him some crumbs

 

[sleepingkirby]

There are always people who are willing to accept slop, then there are always those who are delusional and think things can get better.

You sound like the former.

You know that I have never once stated my preference about Doreen once in that post, right? All I've done is posted what was on Oni's patreon.

Nothing I've written in those posts has expressed my personal opinion. If you have somehow have extrapolated something, that's on you.

 

[sleepingkirby]

There were a ton of complaints about Doreen, and all the other girls.

On Oni's Patreon? Can you send me the links to those complaints?

 

[aesir150]

You know that I have never once stated my preference about Doreen once in that post, right? All I've done is posted what was on Oni's patreon.

Nothing I've written in those posts has expressed my personal opinion. If you have somehow have extrapolated something, that's on you.

The post / comment chain you were responding to had nothing to do with Doreen in particular, but was about how bad the poses look, and him retroactively making poses look bad. With Oni intentionally putting out low quality artwork.

So you randomly bringing up and only focusing on Doreen seems like you're either throwing a red herring out here and just completely derailing the conversation with something completely unrelated, or you're just straw manning the actual criticism as us whining about the character design not meeting our preferences (fetishes such as body type) rather than the actual art quality.

Like, if I were a neutral third party, new to both the game and this thread and I read the comments on his patreon and then the things people say here, the conclusion I would have is that the people here are complaining because the game is not *exactly*, down to the pixel, what they're hoping to get.

On Oni's Patreon? Can you send me the links to those complaints?

Not currently a Patreon of Oni, and haven't been for a long time. Not to mention its obvious that you're going to see more complaints, and more candid talk here than you would on Oni's Patreon.

F95 is pirate site, so more people have access to the game and can give more feedback. Not to mention this is a pure adult website where your credit card and personal information isn't linked to it, so people are more willing to talk about stuff without worrying about being affiliated to adult content.

Also people who are Patreons are naturally going to be more inclined to go along with the flow uncritically as a fan than people who aren't just blindly giving him money.

Looking at Kemono Party, Oni barely gets any responses / feedback on his posts on Patreon.

You must be registered to see the links

Rounding up he has about 6,000 Patreons, and on each post there is only about 5-10 people who actually say anything. And looking at random posts, most of them are just all about which girl is next, crash logs, and basic gameplay questions.

 

[\\_Tremolo_//]

Hey prof. Felt like taking a little walk, er so to speak? Fine day, innit?
View attachment 4620972

Spoiler: ok now it's getting weird

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running latest on joiplay, after the "microtransactions" event

Man this bald is getting on my nerves..

 

[sleepingkirby]

The post / comment chain you were responding to had nothing to do with Doreen, but was about how bad the poses look, and him retroactively making poses look bad. With Oni intentionally putting out low quality artwork.

So those peeps at Patreon are cool with how fugly Betsy came out, Tree Monster and Rogue's redo? Mfs must be about to collapse from the copium overdose, smh.

LeatherMax's thing about the Tree Monster. That's Doreen.

You're right though that he did talk about Betsy. I didn't check the complaints on her yet.

So you randomly bring up Doreen seems like you're either throwing a red herring out here and just completely derailing the conversation with something completely unrelated, or you're just straw manning the actual criticism as us whining about the character design not meeting our preferences.

Not everything is an attack. Chill. It's just an observation.

Not currently a Patreon of Oni, and haven't been for a long time. Not to mention its obvious that you're going to see more complaints, and more candid talk here than you would on Oni's Patreon.

Yeah, that's fine. My main point to Leathermax was that, yeah, there's more complaints here. But the comments about Doreen, a sore spot for a lot of people here, including Leathermax (hence the "Tree Monster"), on the Pateron has been overwhelmingly positive. A stark contrast to the people here. That's my point.

Also people who are Patreons are naturally going to be more inclined to go along with the flow uncritically as a fan and be less critical than people aren't just fans.

Uhm... citation needed? Because everyone else (econ classes, agile programming, shareholders and investors) will say that people that pay will have more skin in the game. So Oni's patreons should be MORE critical than someone who doesn't pay. Because they have something tangible to lose.

Like, if I had to guess, I would say his patreons are less judgemental because he puts out polls for what this patreons want and responds to their replies. You know, supply and demand.

But you do have a point about me not looking up how people feel about Betsy. I'll go look that up after work today.

 

[FacelessVixen]

This can all be explained because Oni learned digital art by winging it and tracing over real porn. He didn't go through the grueling learning process most artists do so doing a basic exercise

Spoiler: like this

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

is completely out of his reach.

[has never done that specific drawing exercise, and was taught based on drawing and painting actual people in art school studios, reference images from Google and form my own photography, and Clip Studio Paint's mannequins]

I wouldn't say that specific exercise is within my reach either, but am I still technically more capable and Oni?

No way in hell that I'll start my own porn game. I'll just stick to pin-ups, fan art and shitposting.

 

[aesir150]

LeatherMax's thing about the Tree Monster. That's Doreen.

You're right though that he did talk about Betsy. I didn't check the complaints on her yet.

Yeah, that's fine. My main point to Leathermax was that, yeah, there's more complaints here. But the comments about Doreen, a sore spot for a lot of people here, including Leathermax (hence the "Tree Monster"), on the Pateron has been overwhelmingly positive. A stark contrast to the people here. That's my point.

But you do have a point about me not looking up how people feel about Betsy. I'll go look that up after work today.

If you look at my post which leathermax was responding to. I also mentioned Doreen, but look at what I said and was responding to.

It was about Oni fucking up Rogue's blowjob pose.

Honestly I feel Oni just wants to stop making the game but doesn't want to stop raking in the Patreon money. Which is why he keeps making characters ugly, disfigured, or weirdly out of proportions to slowly turn us off.

So those peeps at Patreon are cool with how fugly Betsy came out, Tree Monster and Rogue's redo? Mfs must be about to collapse from the copium overdose, smh.

And you can see what he said was agreeing with my point. About the art in general.

Also the fact that you are having a hard time finding complaints about the girls proves what leathermax was saying. Which is Oni's Patreons are fine with how bad the art is.

Uhm... citation needed? Because everyone else (econ classes, agile programming, shareholders and investors) will say that people that pay will have more skin in the game. So Oni's patreons should be MORE critical than someone who doesn't pay. Because they have something tangible to lose.

Like, if I had to guess, I would say his patreons are less judgemental because he puts out polls for what this patreons want and responds to their replies. You know, supply and demand.

Do you think people who buy Disneyland annual passes, buys exclusively Disney merchandise, and watches everything Disney puts out is going to be more critical of Disney or the people who are actively boycotting Disney and objectively evaluate what they're watching?

Do you think people in a political party or religion group or cult are going to be more critical of their own doctrine or someone who is outside of their group?

Another example is the fact that most tech savy people absolutely despise Apple for anti-consumer practices, charging premium prices for subpar hardware, planned obsoletion, overpriced dongles, lack of ports and io, etc... Then there are people who buy $2,000 Macbooks for nothing but web browsing and a new iPhone every year. Who do you think is going to be more critical of Apple? The person who buys a new iPhone every year or the tech enthusiast who dislikes Apple that buys android phones and builds their own computers?

 

[sleepingkirby]

If you look at my post which leathermax was responding to. I also mentioned Doreen, but look at what I said and was responding to.

It was about Oni fucking up Rogue's blowjob pose.

Yeah, that's fine. That's why I replied to Leathermax and not you.

And you can see what he said was agreeing with my point. About the art in general.

Yeah, that's fine. None of my comments were directed at you or your point.

Also the fact that you are having a hard time finding complaints about the girls proves what leathermax was saying. Which is Oni's Patreons are fine with how bad the art is.

So... lack of complaints about art means the art is bad because the art is bad... Isn't that the begging the question fallacy?

Do you think people who buy Disneyland annual passes, buys exclusively Disney merchandise, and watches everything Disney puts out is going to be more critical of Disney or the people who are actively boycotting Disney and objectively evaluate what they're watching?

Oh GOD YES! My fucking god! I use to live in So Cal. They complained about the annual passes making them wait too long, not exclusive enough not skipping ahead of the DISABLED CHILDREN. Remember that whole scandal? Complaining not being able to get into some clubhouse? And the goods, my god. "You like this tigger shirt? *ick* What a basic bitch!" All because the tigger on it wasn't orange enough or didn't have the pose that they liked. Others complained there wasn't enough piglet merchandise. There's a whole BOOK called "The Te of Piglet", but she wanted more. Always more. On everything. Her shoes, her backpack, her pencils. Like she makes my anime obsession look tiny in comparison. And I heard stuff like that all the time! And those Disney boycotts because they've gone "woke"? Those are all the Disney parents. No one else cared.

Do you think people in a political party or religion group or cult are going to be more critical of their own doctrine or someone who is outside of their group?

Look, I don't want to get political but... have you seen what's going on in the US at the moment?

Another example is the fact that most tech savy people absolutely despise Apple for anti-consumer practices, charging premium prices for subpar hardware, planned obsoletion, overpriced dongles, lack of ports and io, etc.....

People know this. I use to help administer a digital art lab. That lab (and community college) would spend 10~20K every 2~4 quarters on new mac stations and laptops. We used EVERY apple care and advantage and complained about every little bit to get stuff fixed because, well... it was 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS.

So, in short, to all of that. Yes.

But, in the end, if Oni is as money grubbing as people say he is, then wouldn't him doing something and losing paying subscribers mean that the patreons DO have leverage/skin in the game/have the ability to complain and be listened to? Like, my point was literally just "People on patreon seem to be happy about this stuff. A stark contrast to here." And the post after that is, "They were down for it before the character was even out. Cope is usually 'this came out, I don't like it, I guess I'll delude myself into liking it.'." Which requires a past-tense. There was none. that I can see from Oni's patreon. That's all I was saying.

If you want to keep dragging this off topic, that's on you. I've said my bit.

For the record, Oni's art, from when the game only had like 4 characters, looked off to me. As do most games on this site. Including The Null Hypothesis. But it's an indie parody porn game. I don't look watch Batman parody porn and criticize the customes or complain that Harley Quin's bush shouldn't be blonde (according to the episode Harlequinade, she's not a real blonde). You get what you can. If I don't like it enough, I'll mod it. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[aesir150]

So... lack of complaints about art means the art is bad because the art is bad... Isn't that the begging the question fallacy?

No the lack of complaints means the people who dislike what Oni is doing probably already checked out years ago. You said it yourself, Oni has had roughly the same amount of Patreons ever since you subscribed to him (assuming that you have subscribed to for a meaningfully long amount of time), which means most people aren't a fan of his work if its been 10 years and his Patreon numbers aren't actively growing.

Oh GOD YES! My fucking god! I use to live in So Cal. They complained about the annual passes making them wait too long, not exclusive enough not skipping ahead of the DISABLED CHILDREN. Remember that whole scandal? Complaining not being able to get into some clubhouse? And the goods, my god. "You like this tigger shirt? *ick* What a basic bitch!" All because the tigger on it wasn't orange enough or didn't have the pose that they liked. Others complained there wasn't enough piglet merchandise. There's a whole BOOK called "The Te of Piglet", but she wanted more. Always more. On everything. Her shoes, her backpack, her pencils. Like she makes my anime obsession look tiny in comparison. And I heard stuff like that all the time! And those Disney boycotts because they've gone "woke"? Those are all the Disney parents. No one else cared.

Disney has a lot of more stuff to be boycotted over other than simply just going woke. Actively buying out companies and intellectual properties and destroying them. Actively stealing other peoples work and passing it off as their own. Various exploitative labor practices. Them owning a lot of subsidiaries that do a lot of bad stuff.

Look, I don't want to get political but... have you seen what's going on in the US at the moment?

Yes and have you heard of "Vote blue no matter who", and the fact that we just had dementia Joe as our president for 4 years and the media the entire Democratic party pretending he didn't have dementia until August of 2024.

Even after losing, they're claiming that they had messaging problem, rather than ideological / principle problem.

People know this. I use to help administer a digital art lab. That lab (and community college) would spend 10~20K every 2~4 quarters on new mac stations and laptops. We used EVERY apple care and advantage and complained about every little bit to get stuff fixed because, well... it was 20 THOUSAND DOLLARS.

So, in short, to all of that. Yes.

Not sure if are agreeing with me here or disagreeing with me.

If you saying you complained a lot therefore you were more critical of Apple, than a person who actively despise Apple and choses to put their money where their mouth is by not giving them money. Then I think we disagree.

 

[sleepingkirby]

No the lack of complaints means the people who dislike what Oni is doing probably already checked out years ago. You said it yourself, Oni has had roughly the same amount of Patreons ever since you subscribed to him (assuming that you have subscribed to for a meaningfully long amount of time), which means most people aren't a fan of his work if its been 10 years and his Patreon numbers aren't actively growing.

I'm lost. How is someone maintaining the same level of subscribers for 10 YEARS means that his art has gotten worse? Like his numbers didn't even drop during the pandemic. Like, are you expecting infinite growth forever? Why is Oni not having infinite growth mean his subscribers checked out? I mean, his levels didn't drop DURING THE PANDEMIC. If there was a time for checked out people to cut costs, it was then. Not only that, have you seen the number of people that voted in the polls? That's around 50% of his paid members.

Like you say his numbers aren't raising because people who didn't like his work already checked out. You can literally say that if he was gaining members. Watch
"Yeah, but he's not getting Vampire Killer numbers and he's been around for 10 years. That means that the people that don't like his stuff already checked out."
Even if he's losing subscribers, you can make that statement.
"See? He's losing subscribers. If he hadn't made all the early adopters checkout, he'd still be able to maintain his income."

So, if he had complaints, you'd say people hate his stuff. If he had no complaints, you'd say people have checked out. If he's getting praise (which he is. I've posted them), you'd still say people have checked out. With your statement and logic, there's no way he's NOT doing bad.

Hence why I asked... isn't this a begging the question fallacy?



Not responding to the rest as its off topic.

 

[aesir150]

Just saw this part that you added on after I posted my response.

But, in the end, if Oni is as money grubbing as people say he is, then wouldn't him doing something and losing paying subscribers mean that the patreons DO have leverage/skin in the game/have the ability to complain and be listened to? Like, my point was literally just "People on patreon seem to be happy about this stuff. A stark contrast to here." And the post after that is, "They were down for it before the character was even out. Cope is usually 'this came out, I don't like it, I guess I'll delude myself into liking it.'." Which requires a past-tense. There was none. that I can see from Oni's patreon. That's all I was saying.

Point is he is just milking it at this point, as long as he puts minimum effort people are still going to keep being his patreon.

If anything on this site. You can go look at all the abandoned games, or games that had rapid develop for the like first year where quality updates were coming out like every month, then suddenly slowing down to like one update once every quarter or 6 months still have an insane amount of Patreons regardless of any progress being made.

Also I am pretty sure people aren't just Oni's Patreon for Rogue Like. Doesn't he also release his stand alone artwork on Patreon?

For the record, Oni's art, from when the game only had like 4 characters, looked off to me. As do most games on this site. Including The Null Hypothesis. But it's an indie parody porn game. I don't look watch Batman parody porn and criticize the customes or complain that Harley Quin's bush shouldn't be blonde (according to the episode Harlequinade, she's not a real blonde). You get what you can. If I don't like it enough, I'll mod it. It wouldn't be the first time.

I've been here (as in following the game not F95) since the start when the game was just Rogue, and not all of Rogues animations were even in yet. And the game was on Newgrounds.

I think most people were excite because Oni actually has good art, and he did a job of being consistent with Rogue. And his early stuff with Kitty was good minus the weird looking blowjob pose. Then when he added Emma post people were already not happy with Oni for various reason... like the usual they wanted this girl instead of that girl. But a lot of people pointed out that Emma took a long time to implement and was mostly a copy and paste of Kitty. Add in Oni's multiple rewrites of the game from the ground up which killed mods, and lack of any increase in production despite the state purpose of rewriting the game was to increase efficiency and less bugs.

Most the people responding to this thread seem to be in the "invested to much time on this game, so might as well stick around to see if it gets better", or the roulette club where they just take whatever they can get assuming that Oni doesn't massively screw it up.

 

[sleepingkirby]

You said it yourself, Oni has had roughly the same amount of Patreons ever since you subscribed to him (assuming that you have subscribed to for a meaningfully long amount of time), which means most people aren't a fan of his work if its been 10 years and his Patreon numbers aren't actively growing.

So, uhmm... I got curious. I've only been subbed to his patreon for the last... I think 6 months so I don't have a very long view? So your statement is

which means most people aren't a fan of his work if its been 10 years and his Patreon numbers aren't actively growing.

Right? Right? So he's bad because his subscribers haven't grown, right?

Via graphteron.com


Oh look. His subscribers have grown from this time last year.


So yeah... Kinda blows your whole argument out of the water, doesn't it? (I'm expecting an "Well no. Because if you look at <insert something else that amounts to a moving the goal post fallacy here>") Also kinda proves that your statement was a begging the question fallacy, doesn't it?

But yeah. QED my dude. Capitalism at work. I'm done here. You have a nice life.