Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.06] [Vénus Noire]

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Oh God this discussion here again?
Take it to PM before the mods decide to delete everything to clean the thread, again.

Hey, at least it's a fairly civil discussion this time. There hasn't even been any name calling. I don't see why it can't be a perfectly valid topic as long as everyone remain civil. But I won't press the issue either.

Now, this is something I don't understand, or at least see simplistic. If Alexia does something wrong, and Rowan hasn't done anything wrong, why do you have to get into the sharing fetish? I think a logical answer would be that even if you've cheated on your partner, it doesn't necessarily mean you're okay with them sleeping with someone else. I believe it because life is like that.

You don't have to, it is another choice when the time comes. You can either allow whichever person(s) to explore their feelings, or you can shut it down. It's the player's choice

Except this isn't real life. In real life I wouldn't be forced to hear your thoughts about other peoples nice tits. You seem to ignore the fact that someone chooses to write, and thus draw attention to, these things. If my SO told me every time they found someone else attractive or constantly stared at other peoples dicks and tits I would find issue with that too but luckily I don't live in that world.

My argument about choices was that a scene going as far down that road before giving you an option implies what they want you to choose. Every scene/setting you bring up presupposes being okay with these fetishes. If I dislike NTR I don't want to read about my wife being spiked and almost getting cucked but choosing a different option so it only almost happened. I feel you either ignored or didn't understand most of what was said about the build up to these scenes and how they're littered with NTR tropes that don't suddenly become cool because the climax didn't happen. I went over how these scenes/settings you bring up are grade A NTR bait in the first place and I imagine they're probably very well written at that so it's all the more visceral to someone who dislikes it. I imagine you must not be used to avoiding NTR if you're not seeing that but literally everything you're describing is littered with red flags that pretty much never appear where NTR isn't.

Your perception of a double standard only holds because you ignore that people consider themselves as following Rowan's story which I think should be pretty obvious. Feel like I shouldn't have to point this out but the issue people have with NTR is being cucked. I play plenty of female pov/protagonist games that involve cheating/ntr with no issue as long as they don't harp on the SOs feelings. Same goes obviously for male protagonists. There's no issue as long my pov isn't getting cucked. If I go from playing Rowan to watching Alexia almost cheat on him then obviously that's an issue. Like I said before a lot of people seem to fixate on a strict definition of NTR that people don't agree on in the first place and doesn't encompass the spirit of people's issues. In your example Rowan doing it to Alexia is Netori (something most people don't mind/care for) rather than Netorare/netorase (what tons of people hate). Netori/cheating is much more well accepted fetish as evidenced by what you've mistaken as a double standard.

Feel like I'm not properly getting my points across judging by your response so I'll stop here unless you want to PM like someone suggested. Don't want to clutter up this thread anymore especially since I don't have any issue with this game or its devs. Literally just ended up here by chance while looking for malesub/pegging games and wanted to take a quick look to see if anything had changed about the toggle.

Without going into the NTR debate any further, the player is just as much Alexia as they are Rowan. You see the game from both of their perspectives, you make choices for both of them at key moments, and they both spend a good amount of time thinking thoughts and taking actions that the player doesn't have any direct control over. Sure you send a bit more time in Rowan's perspective, but note nearly as much more as you might think. They are co-protagonist. And it's not just me saying this, it is the developers too, it is the reason why the game has the "female protagonist" tag.

To me it's not that different from something like when Rowan thinks about how attractive Cliohna is, but to me she isn't all that (I know Cliohan fans, please don't hurt me). I don't feel particularly tempted by her, but the game is telling me that Rowan is temped by her, and then asks me for input about how I think he should respond. See, Rowan and Alexia are not generic blank slate characters, they have pre-established backgrounds and personality's. And those background and personalities inform most of their actions and thoughts. It's the same reason I don't get that upset when a character on TV cheats on their spouse, It's not my wife cheating, my wife is sitting at her computer next to mine playing her own porn games.

But I suppose that why I just can't see myself as these characters. I just don't have enough control over them to see them as an extension of myself. To me it's more like if I were friends with a writer, and periodically he gets stuck and would turn to me and say "I've got a couple ideas for the direction to take this scene with the minotaur, but I'm not sure which one to pick, what do you think?" Then I look over it and say, "Hmmm, I think she should ask to see his dick, and then immediately burst out laughing and tease him for whipping his dick out right there at the dinner table." Then he responds, "Ha, that's great! Then I'll have him get all embarrassed and self conscious and run out of the room" Then he gets back to writing and my contribution is done until he gets stuck again.

 

[DewyCave]

Not trying to bash anyone's opinions here, but I feel like we're supposed to treat both Rowan and Alexa as MCs. So I don't feel betrayed if Alexa has lustful thoughts because I'm not playing as Rowan, but as both of them. I can't say I'm a fan of NTR, just not bothered by it. And out of genuine curiosity, do people that dislike NTR avoid cheating as Rowan too?

 

[Chalker]

Not trying to bash anyone's opinions here, but I feel like we're supposed to treat both Rowan and Alexa as MCs. So I don't feel betrayed if Alexa has lustful thoughts because I'm not playing as Rowan, but as both of them. I can't say I'm a fan of NTR, just not bothered by it. And out of genuine curiosity, do people that dislike NTR avoid cheating as Rowan too?

I personally did, I played the game with the full intent of trying to go against the twins as much as possible and trying to avoid as much corruption as possible as well.

 

[Zero1994]

Not trying to bash anyone's opinions here, but I feel like we're supposed to treat both Rowan and Alexa as MCs. So I don't feel betrayed if Alexa has lustful thoughts because I'm not playing as Rowan, but as both of them. I can't say I'm a fan of NTR, just not bothered by it. And out of genuine curiosity, do people that dislike NTR avoid cheating as Rowan too?

Of course, the man will never be NTR if he sleeps with thousands of women, if the woman has a minimum of erotic thought for another man, it is tremendous NTR.

by anti-NTRs

Greetings

 

[Kotobiki]

Except this isn't real life. In real life I wouldn't be forced to hear your thoughts about other peoples nice tits. You seem to ignore the fact that someone chooses to write, and thus draw attention to, these things. If my SO told me every time they found someone else attractive or constantly stared at other peoples dicks and tits I would find issue with that too but luckily I don't live in that world.

My argument about choices was that a scene going as far down that road before giving you an option implies what they want you to choose. Every scene/setting you bring up presupposes being okay with these fetishes. If I dislike NTR I don't want to read about my wife being spiked and almost getting cucked but choosing a different option so it only almost happened. I feel you either ignored or didn't understand most of what was said about the build up to these scenes and how they're littered with NTR tropes that don't suddenly become cool because the climax didn't happen. I went over how these scenes/settings you bring up are grade A NTR bait in the first place and I imagine they're probably very well written at that so it's all the more visceral to someone who dislikes it. I imagine you must not be used to avoiding NTR if you're not seeing that but literally everything you're describing is littered with red flags that pretty much never appear where NTR isn't.

Your perception of a double standard only holds because you ignore that people consider themselves as following Rowan's story which I think should be pretty obvious. Feel like I shouldn't have to point this out but the issue people have with NTR is being cucked. I play plenty of female pov/protagonist games that involve cheating/ntr with no issue as long as they don't harp on the SOs feelings. Same goes obviously for male protagonists. There's no issue as long my pov isn't getting cucked. If I go from playing Rowan to watching Alexia almost cheat on him then obviously that's an issue. Like I said before a lot of people seem to fixate on a strict definition of NTR that people don't agree on in the first place and doesn't encompass the spirit of people's issues. In your example Rowan doing it to Alexia is Netori (something most people don't mind/care for) rather than Netorare/netorase (what tons of people hate). Netori/cheating is much more well accepted fetish as evidenced by what you've mistaken as a double standard.

Feel like I'm not properly getting my points across judging by your response so I'll stop here unless you want to PM like someone suggested. Don't want to clutter up this thread anymore especially since I don't have any issue with this game or its devs. Literally just ended up here by chance while looking for malesub/pegging games and wanted to take a quick look to see if anything had changed about the toggle.

All of that makes sense and all, but the perspective is objectively a double standard regardless. If anything, doubly so given you just called out the other side for saying they're sticking too strictly to netorare definition then tried to book them down by netori definition. At end of the day, you are not Rowan and if you were then going around cheating but hating Alexia for cheating would be hypocritical aka still a double standard.

 

[Kotobiki]

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on this matter. Everyone clearly feels fairly strongly about their stance and it is rare for an internet debate to change anyone's mind. This is just to discuss my thoughts on the matter and to offer a different viewpoint for anyone that may be on the fence.

First of all, I simply cannot agree that having passing sexual thoughts and occasionally feeling tempted amounts to NTR. If that was the case, then nearly everyone in a relationship is NTRing their significant other on a fairly regular basis. If I was out drinking with a female associate and thought to myself "damn she has some nice tits," and then immediately followed it up with "What hell am I thinking? I'm a happily married and don't need to let my mind wander down that path," no one in their right mind would accuse me of cheating.

Next, I don't see the game as trying to push you into NTR. In the next scene in Greyhide's arc a very similar senarior plays out between him and Rowan when they drink the same aphrodisiac spiked alcohol, you then have the choice between making out with Greyhide (leading to more), or to drunkenly gush about how good of a friend he is. But the game isn't trying to push you to be gay. It is jsut presenting you with that option if you are interested. If not that is fine too because the senario is written to account for that choice. In the next scene it is revealed that Jezera had secretly spiked Greyhide's liquor, hoping for some interesting results. This scene will play out a bit differently depending on if Alexia fooled around with Greyhide, whether Rowan did, wether they both did, or whether neither of them did.

I also don't agree that having a choice implies that the character really wanted to do a particular option. It is just a moment where the developer is asking either "what would you do in this situation," or "what do you think should happen next." And in the way it is presented, these are clearly intrusive thoughts and not normal for her. In fact, most often she is able to reject any advances quite firmly. In the prologue when Alexia has been captured for a while you are given the choice between "she warmed up to Andras" or "she remained cold and aloof" is doesn't make sense that she wants both considering that it is asking how she has react for the past several months, it is asking you what you version of Alexia is like. By the same token When Rowan agrees to serve the twins and he is ordered to service one of them sexually and you can choose which one you want, it isn't saying that Rowan wants to have sex with both of them equally, it is asking you who your Rowan is attracted to. By the same token when you are asked to make the choice between "ask to see Greyhide's dick" or "shake of the aphrodisiac" it is asking you what kind of woman your version of Alexia is. Is she the type to give in to her magically induced lust, or is she the type to resist and remain faithful to both her husband and her principles.

Finally, I find there is usually a pretty big double standard in these arguments. By the time you get to the Alexia/Greyhide scene, Rowan will likely have had dozens of encounters with women (and possibly men) trying to temp him, and he is usually presented with the same two choices, either give in to the temptation or to resist the temptation. But I never see anyone complain that Rowan is NTRing his wife regardless of whether or not he ever gives in.

All that said, while I still disagree with your stances, I understand that other people will also have those stances, So I will endever to take that in to consideration in the future when people ask about NTR in this game. I will let them know that both of the protagonist will have other characters try to temp them in various ways, and that sometimes they WILL be tempted. But that the ultimate decision as to whether or not they will act on those temptations is up to the player. So if you cannot stand the idea that your SO may find other people attractive, and may at least be tempted on occasion then this may not be the game for you.

Both of your stances have logic to an extent. People have double standards, they do not like seeing MC getting cucked usually because people project into them... which imo is weird because most fiction protagonist are irrelatistic af or at the very least outliers for real life standards, but to each their own.

And just feel the need to point out, Alexia wonders about shiz even without being spiked (dunno if thats the case still, but def was the case in older build I played). But that def isnt NTR by itself and is a pretty weird complaint in a H game with a dark atmosphere, dunno why people would expect some irrealistic waifu incapable of any impure thought in a H game, specially one that sells itself the way SoC does.

 

[Kotobiki]

maybe Alexia, not Rowan. Canon Rowan has a incorruptible soul. He s written to be the good guy. The one who tries his best to minimize the damage done by the twins. This s a mission that only he can fulfill and will surely come with a high price.

That has nothing to do with sexual preferences which is what we were talking about. In example I can recall a line from Alexia stating that Rowan always seemed bi to her, referring to her perception of him before they even met the twins.

 

[Lunix00]

You don't have to, it is another choice when the time comes. You can either allow whichever person(s) to explore their feelings, or you can shut it down. It's the player's choice

In this specific scene, if you select with Alexia that you liked the minotaur, Rowan automatically agrees. I know that it is the player who decides, but the grace of having multiple protagonists is being able to make decisions from different perspectives. I mean, instead of happily accepting that his wife is fucking someone else, he might as well get furious and do something about it, at least realize that his wife is no longer the same lady he once loved. To me Rowan's response should be a player choice and not automatically defined by what you do with Alexia.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Mostly avoiding the entire pit of worms. But, small point.

The NTR is not intigral to the story or needed for it to work. Seeds of Chaos is not at it's core an NTR story. It is instead a Corruption story wherein a prominent NTR sub-plot is one of the major potential mechanisms for that corruption. If the route is not followed, the story is entirely workable from some of the other mechanisms for corruption in the story, of which there are quite a few.

This is not to say that the NTR is bad, small, or non-impactful. It is simply not nessacery in a naratological sense.

 

[tek65432]

Checked out the patreon and liked the design of the new goblin character. With the new section focusing on goblins, what are the chances of getting a goblin facesitting scene?

 

[feelsbadman.inc]

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion on this matter. Everyone clearly feels fairly strongly about their stance and it is rare for an internet debate to change anyone's mind. This is just to discuss my thoughts on the matter and to offer a different viewpoint for anyone that may be on the fence.

First of all, I simply cannot agree that having passing sexual thoughts and occasionally feeling tempted amounts to NTR. If that was the case, then nearly everyone in a relationship is NTRing their significant other on a fairly regular basis. If I was out drinking with a female associate and thought to myself "damn she has some nice tits," and then immediately followed it up with "What hell am I thinking? I'm a happily married and don't need to let my mind wander down that path," no one in their right mind would accuse me of cheating.

My biggest problem with this is when there are scenes like "the_full_package” event in which no matter the corruption or relationship points that you have with Rowan while Alexia is riding the dildo she's fantasizing about this mystery man that she's been having dreams about in which she's having rough sex. I mean for someone who isn't a big fan of NTR a scene like that would be very off-putting. Especially for those playing a pure Alexia and having a good relationship between her and Rowan.

 

[feelsbadman.inc]

That has nothing to do with sexual preferences which is what we were talking about. In example I can recall a line from Alexia stating that Rowan always seemed bi to her, referring to her perception of him before they even met the twins.

Yea, but that line is doesn't really correlate to how the player is playing the game. You could play Rowan as straight as you'd like or you could have him be a closeted gay man who now only has sex with men. Pretty sure you can only get that line if Rowan has been having sex with men though I can't remember. Either way it's not like that statement would be true 100% of the time

 

[feelsbadman.inc]

Both of your stances have logic to an extent. People have double standards, they do not like seeing MC getting cucked usually because people project into them... which imo is weird because most fiction protagonist are irrelatistic af or at the very least outliers for real life standards, but to each their own.

And just feel the need to point out, Alexia wonders about shiz even without being spiked (dunno if thats the case still, but def was the case in older build I played). But that def isnt NTR by itself and is a pretty weird complaint in a H game with a dark atmosphere, dunno why people would expect some irrealistic waifu incapable of any impure thought in a H game, specially one that sells itself the way SoC does.

I mean if you're going to give the player the option to play a certain way, in this case Pure Rowan Pure Alexia then it would make sense to keep that option consistent throughout the game. If that's the way you'd like to play the game I think it's pretty fair for someone to complain about choices and thoughts that they don't get a say in

 

[Rein]

Checked out the patreon and liked the design of the new goblin character. With the new section focusing on goblins, what are the chances of getting a goblin facesitting scene?

They've just increased.

 

[MadagascanVanilla]

Any news on the scene replay mod? Or can we assume it's not getting an update?

 

[Kotobiki]

Yea, but that line is doesn't really correlate to how the player is playing the game. You could play Rowan as straight as you'd like or you could have him be a closeted gay man who now only has sex with men. Pretty sure you can only get that line if Rowan has been having sex with men though I can't remember. Either way it's not like that statement would be true 100% of the time

How a player plays the game also does not change lore however, if you dont get a line about previous dark lord methods being faulty due to Y and Z due to you choosing X, does not mean X was not present. Or a better example might be how if Alexia does not translate the book does not mean the contents of it do not exist.
What I pointed out is that there are implications the potential for these deviancies of the characters was there, its pointed out multiple times. Whether we act on them or not is a whole other prerogative.

 

[Oriandu]

They've just increased.

Considering just how stacked all three of the female goblins we've seen more than a glimpse of have been, I'm honestly surprised that Cla-Min didn't have face sitting as part of her repertoire of scenes already.

 

[feelsbadman.inc]

How a player plays the game also does not change lore however, if you dont get a line about previous dark lord methods being faulty due to Y and Z due to you choosing X, does not mean X was not present. Or a better example might be how if Alexia does not translate the book does not mean the contents of it do not exist.
What I pointed out is that there are implications the potential for these deviancies of the characters was there, its pointed out multiple times. Whether we act on them or not is a whole other prerogative.

Yes but your book example I would say is an entirely different thing, there is no way for the contents of the books to change whether or not you have opened it. However that does not apply to the choices of the characters, by you having control over the choices that Alexia and Rowan make you have the ability to mold them any which way. I would say that in these cases X is not present as a result of your actions, where as the contents of the book are static your decisions aren't. If you're playing as a straight Rowan then the potential for him to become gay wouldn't be there because of your actions, in which case he couldn't ever be considered as bisexual. Sure the option is there but if you never take it then how could that statement ever be considered as fact that would be in lore?

I apologize if my point isn't cohesive, wouldn't really call myself the greatest debator lmao

 

[T51bwinterized]

Yes but your book example I would say is an entirely different thing, there is no way for the contents of the books to change whether or not you have opened it. However that does not apply to the choices of the characters, by you having control over the choices that Alexia and Rowan make you have the ability to mold them any which way. I would say that in these cases X is not present as a result of your actions, where as the contents of the book are static your decisions aren't. If you're playing as a straight Rowan then the potential for him to become gay wouldn't be there because of your actions, in which case he couldn't ever be considered as bisexual. Sure the option is there but if you never take it then how could that statement ever be considered as fact that would be in lore?

I apologize if my point isn't cohesive, wouldn't really call myself the greatest debator lmao

The backstory itself isn't very muteable. But, the psychology of the Rowan and Alexia are variable based on choices, and this does extend backwards. In practice, this would produce some small variances in their past relationship. For example, a more MxM inclined Rowan may have had a slightly rockier relationship with Alexia in the past. But, for the most part the past in the same.

I will note that while a Rowan who is 100% homosexual and has no attraction whatsoever to women doesn't really work. But, a Rowan who is much more attracted to men but is repressed is possible. He can be a 5 on the Kinsey Scale, but he can't be a six.

 

[feelsbadman.inc]

The backstory itself isn't very muteable. But, the psychology of the Rowan and Alexia are variable based on choices, and this does extend backwards. In practice, this would produce some small variances in their past relationship. For example, a more MxM inclined Rowan may have had a slightly rockier relationship with Alexia in the past. But, for the most part the past in the same.

I will note that while a Rowan who is 100% homosexual and has no attraction whatsoever to women doesn't really work. But, a Rowan who is much more attracted to men but is repressed is possible. He can be a 5 on the Kinsey Scale, but he can't be a six.

Alright so give it to me straight if possible, Alexia has always seen Rowan as bisexual? I thought that that scene in which she has those thoughts would only occur when the player has been involved with men (or is it just like the other gossip stuff fromt the maid job). I just didn't think it would make much sense for her to think Rowan is bi if he's never shown nor acted on tendencies like that before.