Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.07] [Vénus Noire]

[Proto Persona]

The only group I'm not sure I would bother with would be Goblins. They would certainly be great for sneaking up on places, but if they have to fight, it likely won't end well for them. Their small stature would put them at odds in an engagement... and they likely don't have the physical prowess like the Dwarf's do to make up for this shortcoming.

The thing about stealth engagements is if you been forced to fight you've already majorly screwed up. Goblins would be great at the actual stealthy tactics of infiltration, assassination and hit-and-run raids.

 

[Lokplart]

We've only just gotten to a point where Alexia is more or less willingly giving Andras sexual pleasure...humiliation will be a ways away (not to mention that that type of content is always a bit iffy, given that the twins need Rowan to be somewhat respected).

To be honest if you let Alexia loose she's already fucking kind of everyone... the twins, Greyhide, maids, guests. Not to mention that 3 out 5 jobs are pretty humiliating, considering Rowan's position (maid, waitress and worst of all breading pits cleaner). She has already been whipped and raped, it's not really that far off to a humiliation path.

Plus, orcs will listen regardless of Rowans reputation. Be it by fear of the twins or a corrupt Rowan who starts using the "Andras" ways to lead

 

[DSHMITT]

I just had a quick question about the Ruler Event where Xaratl introduces Rowan and Alexia to whip play. The event makes it clear that it reduces Rowan's Guilt level but does it also reduce his Corruption level? I'm asking because I was wondering if I could use the event to reduce his Guilt while keeping his Corruption the same? (i'm trying to corrupt him you see)
Unlike CoC or CoC2 it's a lot harder to gage the levels in SoC. Not that i'm complaing mind you! I'm actually really enjoying working for my desired setting (Andras x Rowan)!!

 

[Lokplart]

I just had a quick question about the Ruler Event where Xaratl introduces Rowan and Alexia to whip play. The event makes it clear that it reduces Rowan's Guilt level but does it also reduce his Corruption level? I'm asking because I was wondering if I could use the event to reduce his Guilt while keeping his Corruption the same? (i'm trying to corrupt him you see)
Unlike CoC or CoC2 it's a lot harder to gage the levels in SoC. Not that i'm complaing mind you! I'm actually really enjoying working for my desired setting (Andras x Rowan)!!

The event lowers guilt (by 2) and raises corruption (by 2)

 

[TheMagister]

To be honest if you let Alexia loose she's already fucking kind of everyone... the twins, Greyhide, maids, guests. Not to mention that 3 out 5 jobs are pretty humiliating, considering Rowan's position (maid, waitress and worst of all breading pits cleaner). She has already been whipped and raped, it's not really that far off to a humiliation path.

Plus, orcs will listen regardless of Rowans reputation. Be it by fear of the twins or a corrupt Rowan who starts using the "Andras" ways to lead

Sure, but there's a lot more noncon in there than the other way around. Greyhide and the Jezera route are really the only ones that are consensual from what I remember, and those all happen behind the scenes. I wouldn't really consider any of the jobs humiliating either, since maid puts her straight under Jezera and breeding pits cleaner is again much more behind the scenes. I doubt many orcs know about her if you put her there. The tavern is probably the most demeaning, but then I don't know how respected the waitresses are in general. Can they be freely taken or is the tavern an "actual" tavern. Do the orcs even drink there?

 

[DSHMITT]

The event lowers guilt (by 2) and raises corruption (by 2)

Thanks!

 

[Lokplart]

Sure, but there's a lot more noncon in there than the other way around. Greyhide and the Jezera route are really the only ones that are consensual from what I remember, and those all happen behind the scenes. I wouldn't really consider any of the jobs humiliating either, since maid puts her straight under Jezera and breeding pits cleaner is again much more behind the scenes. I doubt many orcs know about her if you put her there. The tavern is probably the most demeaning, but then I don't know how respected the waitresses are in general. Can they be freely taken or is the tavern an "actual" tavern. Do the orcs even drink there?

Well.. i like to think there's a bit of gossip around the castle. Belief supported by the fact that in the alexia orc rape event one of the orcs mentioned that rowan is having affairs with many other women.

So idk how behind the scenes everything is

Imo all alexia needs rn is just a small push

As for the tavern.. that's one of the three places she gets publicly humiliated by andras and if I remember correctly it's also the place where the orc rape happenes

The breeding pits are also not that safe since we've seen orcs in there at least once when the orc girl was raped by a drider so I think it's safe to assume there are more orcs helping around the breeding pits

The maids are a bit better but they're nothing but Jezera's tools. What's to stop that guy who alexia fucked to get info from spreading the word about the hot redhead to someone else in the castle.

 

[TheSexinati]

The thing about stealth engagements is if you been forced to fight you've already majorly screwed up. Goblins would be great at the actual stealthy tactics of infiltration, assassination and hit-and-run raids.

That is not what I was referring to. You certainly are correct about being attacked whilst they are in stealth though!

It is actually the Hit-and-Run raids that I'm talking about. Primarily because I don't think they would be that effective against Human-sized targets.

When I refer to attacking from stealth, I was referring to attacking from concealment. This means sudden ambushes. Goblins would not be great in this scenario because they would not be great in either using ranged weapons nor attacking with melee weapons. The only ranged weapon I can see them using efficiently are slings because they can make up for in body mechanics what they lack in physical prowess (That is, they can use their arms, legs and hips to assist with power generation).

I could theoretically see Javelins also being of use for goblins, they can use the same advantages afforded to them from using their body to assist with power generation. However, I have a feeling that a goblin's javelin would be more like a Human's dart. So whilst it would be effective against relatively unarmoured opponents, anything more than a padded defensive garment (With perhaps the exception of say... A padded jack), these darts will probably not do much against anything more substantial. It wouldn't surprise me if even maile would be capable of protecting against a goblins 'javelin'. At least, not if we are talking about maile that is constructed similarily to Historical maile (Most medieval finds were composed a lot from flat riveted + solid punched rings of about 5-7mm ID in your standard 4-1 pattern... so a fairly dense weave. A goblin Javelin will likely have to split, break or penetrate through ~2-4 rings in order to penetrate)

So if it came down to Rowan ordering an ambush, I don't see Goblins being of much use.

And, as you've said if they are attacked, then yeah their kinda screwed. Even the Orcs would be kinda screwed if they are discovered and then attacked. The thing about stealth is largely that you often go about it in your lighter configurations of armour. And given that the Orc's don't really wear much armour in the first place (At least, basing off of visual imagery within Seeds of Chaos)... well, Orcs aren't really that well protected. For Humans (And those anatomically similar) The heaviest armour I can envisage would either be something like a Jazerant, or perhaps a Brigandine (Potentially worn with Jack-chains, but probably not with plated leg defenses due to the noise). Without these, I can envisage Padded Jacks being worn, these should protect against most ranged weapons and most slashes from a majority of melee weapons, but a thrust from a polearm, spear or half-sworded longsword would have a good chance of going right through (But this shouldn't come as a surprise. If you want adequate protection from thrusts, you use metal armour).

A lack of armour isn't really that important when you're attacking from surprise. Because if you've done it right, you catch them with their pants down and they are out of formation and out of armour, and very likely are shitting their pants (In my own terminology, with all these factors combined, their fucked). Turn the situation around though, and Rowan's men are fucked.

And speaking of armour. What the fuck Andras!

Baring your bare chest proudly whilst leading an attack against a fortified position... not wise brah, not wise.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Numbers win wars. One presumes based on most settings that goblin armies are simply easier to maintain per man. Larger troop numbers allow a force to engage in tactics that are much more destructive/maximize killing power such as Pincer moves.

Other benefits include tactical flexibility and force multiplication. The goblin is most dangerous on a unit level, where their natural organization hierarchies make them more dangerous in concert.

Orcs are scary for really easy to understand reasons. They're big and strong, can smash shields, and have bodies that can take far more punishment then lightly armored humans. If you stuck a human in a fight with one, it would end poorly for most humans. But, many of the same factors that make orcish armies bad matches for human armies are the same problems human armies have against goblins. Numerical superiority, cooperation among units, etc.

The fundamental difference between Human vs Orc and Goblin vs Human is that humans also have better technology then either orcs or goblins.

 

[UncleVT]

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

Hey, Winter here. I wanted to check in with you guys and answer some common questions on how development is going and what to expect (writing side) from the new release.
Is this release going to finish Rastedel content?
Not quite. This meant is meant as the big release where we put in the Rastedel finale, but there is some lingering materials that will need to be covered. The following content is not planned for this release:
- The Resolution of the Maud plotline
- The planned Simone Content
- The variant of the finale for Werden's Route
- The sexual events with Jacques and his girlfriend
- The Epilogue
- The Rowan Corrupts Patricia Solo route.
These materials are planned for future releases, but without the urgency of currently bringing Rastedel to a finale. That is we'd be working on them at the same time as focusing more on the castle and the NTR plotlines.
What are we planning to include in this release then?
- The Patricia Corruption Storyline
- A new bad end a little earlier in the Rastedel plotline.
- The Resolution of the Alain story (Hopefully)
- The Coup and associated events for Patricia and Jacques routes.
- The Aftermath of the Coup and Finale of the Rastedel mission.
You can expect twists and turns, seduction, thrills, and resolutions to much of what we've spent so long building up. Not all of this is written already, so it's still possible there may be some trouble along the way, but we're confident in our ability of producing a massive release. There are already 4 completed sex scenes, and a good number more planned. What we're also looking at including is:
- More Greyhide content at the Forge Job
- A pair of Rowan/Alexia events including sex scenes targeted towards Low Corruption Rowan/Alexia and High Corruption High Loyalty Rowan/Alexia.
This is, by all measures, going to be a massive release. The target is somewhere in the range of 60k words and we're already sitting on something like 30K words completed and finalized.

 

[TheSexinati]

Numbers win wars. One presumes based on most settings that goblin armies are simply easier to maintain per man. Larger troop numbers allow a force to engage in tactics that are much more destructive/maximize killing power such as Pincer moves.

I'd argue that it is Logistics and Strategy which are often more important in determining who wins rather than sheer numerical advantage. (But It certainly is a factor!).

The Overall Logistics affects your strategy, and your overall strategical outlook affects your tactical considerations going forward.

Julius Caesar's Gallic wars, in my opinion, is a good example of Roman logistics and strategy triumphing over numbers. Pulling off this campaign would be a very hard feat without proper logistics, if not impossible. (Unfortunately, said Book can also be rather dry were reading material is concerned...)

The goblin is most dangerous on a unit level, where their natural organization hierarchies make them more dangerous in concert.

I'd argue this point, but more from physicality than any hierarchy. At least concerning formations from a 'Unit' basis (I am not sure exactly how you would specifically define a unit). Smaller stature and physical prowess will play a factor in formation fighting. They might be able to have more men in a given 'frontage', but this wouldn't play that much of a factor as you might think. Their smaller size means that their range would likely be lesser (Even when using spears)... and this is quite important.

Though their small size does mean that it is less likely for a human-sized adversary to score a direct impact to the legs and feet (And if Goblins use shields, most strikes would be glancing or deflecting blows), their head would likely be more exposed. I think this should be taken into consideration.

The Goblins could get away with using longer spears/pikes... but then this could theoretically prove to be more physically taxing... and this can be detrimental over an ongoing battle. I have acquaintances online who have experience with pikes. They can be more physically demanding than you might expect, more so than with spears. Pikes are essentially a long wooden lever with a weight on the end, so in short this is not something you want to be holding out all day. Spears can be similar, but are smaller and lighter and thus take less strain to use.

Now, if you had some Chad Gobbo's with raging Arm muscles and bulging thighs and they can use pikes. That's something to consider!

Armour can also play a big role in determining how battles from formations can ensue. If both sides largely have shields and spears, both formations will go about battle cautiously, and from the battle-furrow (My term for the middle-ground, which is a space about a metre or two wide between two formations), spears and other long weapons will only slowly be brought forward to-and-fro, and most offensive action will be generally be made from caution. Shields will render most attacks that do land on an opponent will generally occur as an indirect (Either from sliding or from a draw-cut as the spear is drawn back) or glancing hit, and death is not very likely. Battles therefore would be rather bloodless until either one side routes, and most battles would likely last for around 5-10 minutes and then one or both sides would withdraw momentarily for a breather before the formations would return and begin attacking again. This has been called as 'pulse fighting'. It can continue on for hours, or until a gap or similar occurrence arises within one formation or another and is potentially exploited, this can cause a rout to occur. When a rout occurs, the routing side will then suffer the most casualties. Pulse fighting makes sense to anyone who has experience with martial arts.

(Having more frontage in this case might actually be an advantage, they can press more weapons into service depending on how they fight, however the fact that their heads are likely a more exposed target by the humans is cause for concern)

However, if you have one side that is heavily armoured and the other is not as well armoured (Lets say, the Humans are well armoured and the goblins are not as well armoured), then things change. Well-armoured troops are not as afraid of being struck as lesser-armoured troops, and thus they can attack more ferociously and with more force. This means that battles will likely ensue more quickly. Battles will still likely be postponed so that everyone gets a breather, but I'd wager that the not-as-well armoured side will be rout much quickly over the course of the battle. (The battle of Wisby comes to mind for this.)

Once everyone starts wearing heavy armour, things change again. Battles likely become more slower-paced again, weapon-choice will tend to favour polearms over spears (Or pikes over spears). When it comes to heavier armour components, you often need greater momentum in order to bypass these defenses (Either to perforate through an armoured surface, or less-importantly, to penetrate through an armour via blunt-force, which is a more unreliable way to damage someone through armour). And so Polearms are an ideal weapon. Daggers can also be ideal for going through gaps in an armour, which is why Harnishfechten (Or Harness fighting in German) often incorporates grappling moves for downing a knight so that they can be stabbed through a weak-point with a dagger, poleaxe or similar weapon. Shields also tend to be dropped in favour of two-handed weapons. This is an important consideration because power-generation is often of more importance when it concerns driving a weapon home against plate armour and actually doing anything to the person inside. The defense that a shield comprises compared to plate armour often means that in most cases a shield is rendered redundant except against oncoming projectile fire.

This is where my concern about Goblin physicality comes into play. Weapons that have the capability to cause damage through plate armour tend to be heavier. This can put more of a strain on a goblin force. Combine this with armour, and this strain will only increase. So whilst during the initial battle they could be fine, after a period of time they will likely fatigue quicker in an engagement and will likely need more 'breathing' periods.

In pretty much most circumstances, I don't see this going well for a Goblin force, formation-on-formation, because of the size, potentially strength and potentially the reach advantage that is more likely to be attained by Human forces. This is, however, an observation that is entirely dependent on how closely to historical accuracy that Seeds of Chaos wants to set itself.

If a goblin army can constantly maintain larger forces, and can replenish these lost numbers compared to Humans, than that is also an important factor! It doesn't matter if you can kill three times as many Goblins if they can replenish again within a year and attack you again with the same numbers.

But either way, I feel that they will be weaker in most circumstances.

Ahem... time for a Line break (And a dinner break)... one moment.

****
Ranged
****

I feel that the Goblins would be better served by having a good ranged component in their armies, given that they can field larger armies, it would be good if they can utilize a fair proportion of that as being composed of ranged troops. This would also pair them well with the Orcs, who otherwise excel in physical prowess but are not great at organised formation-fighting. Ranged fire, if employed properly, can soften up a formation over time. This could prove vital for an Orcish charge. As to their ranged weapons, I can only see three potential weapons. Crossbows, slings and javelins. Slings and javelins can be used with bio-mechanical advantage, so even with less physical strength they can still use these weapons efficiently. Crossbows would also be viable, both because the weapon can be spanned by mechanical means, but also because the powerstroke between a Goblin and a Human crossbow should be similar. This means that a crossbow can be made short whilst still being as powerful as human-sized heavy crossbows. (It would surprise most people, but most powerstrokes of Heavy Medieval arbalests were short, only about 4-6 inches. This surprises many people.)

Bows, I don't really see Goblins using efficiently. Bows can require a lot of physical strength in order to use properly. If they were to use a bow, I'd imagine that a short composite bow would be best. I don't see them using self-bows efficiently, largely because the size would be a concern (Unless they were to design a form of asymmetrical bow).

Range-wise, I predict that Goblins could easily hit the 200 metre range from long slings (Probably with stones/clay projectiles about ~50-80 grams). They could probably shoot as far with their crossbows but by then the projectiles would have lost most of their energy in comparison to a slingstone. For javelins, I'd guestimate ~40-50 metres from a run-up, but from a standing position their range would likely drop to around 20 metres. Using an amentum or throwing strap, you might be able to increase this distance from a run-up throw.

Effective ranges change depending on the armour of the enemies they are facing. If they are facing heavily armoured troops, then slingstones and crossbow bolts will likely only be effective out to ~20-40 metres. Same with javelins. Against relatively unarmoured Humans, I'd say about ~100-120 metres for goblin-sized slingstones, about ~80-100 metres for crossbow bolts and about 40-50 metres for the javelin. Slingstones tend to lose their energy at slower rates compared to arrows or bolts because they do not have fletchings which sap their energy.

If the Goblins decide to go down the Roman/Greek route, Lead glandes are one of the more aerodynamic projectiles (High density + Low surface area + Slower-than-firearm velocity = Not much form drag and low skin-friction). From my understanding, they only lose 1/10th to 1/8th of their energy at the end of their flight. And they could probably get to a range around ~300-400 metres with them. Effective range? Armoured, about 40 metres, unarmoured? About ~200+ metres. (This is pretty much what Xenophon states in his Anabasis against unarmoured Persian archers and slingers)

I don't have any specific information regarding crossbows or javelins, but I do have the Israeli medical journal about Slings and their associated trauma... and they cite similar ranges regarding damage potential as I've put down under "Effective" ranges.

I think that outfitting a proportion of Goblins as ranged troops would be an advantageous way for them to fight. And I feel that It would make them more dangerous overall if they incorporated them in their way of fighting. For one thing, Pincer movements would be greatly assisted if you have ranged troops shooting the shit out of the enemy flanks before committing the flanking Gobbo's to charge. Or, you could create a specialized force of Flanking Gobbo's armed with Javelins, who throw said javelin from running (Which increases the range) and then close in to the enemy flanks with any specific weapon you have in mind. Even if the enemy is wearing plate armour and the weapon does not penetrate (Or glances off), a thrown javelin still has a fair amount of momentum and so you could periodically shock or stun someone for a few seconds.

Orcs are scary for really easy to understand reasons. They're big and strong, can smash shields, and have bodies that can take far more punishment then lightly armored humans. If you stuck a human in a fight with one, it would end poorly for most humans. But, many of the same factors that make orcish armies bad matches for human armies are the same problems human armies have against goblins. Numerical superiority, cooperation among units, etc.

Ohohohoh, I don't doubt it!

Orcs would frankly be "Shit-in-pants fear inducing". As I have said before, I cannot begin to comprehend the legitimate danger that Orcish weaponry would impose on a battlefield. Orcish ranged weapons would be legitimately terrifying. Nobody teach them how to use the bow or sling!

Thankfully, the Orcs seem to be a more down-to-earth melee brawler 'Gung-ho' type. Which is where Human formations would probably fuck them over.

Attacking a formation as an Ad-hoc group of tall dudes haphazardly rushing up, that's asking for getting ganked by guys with polearms.

Now, imagine a plate-armoured orc. Or better yet, a thousand of them. Fuck that! Fuck that 1000x if they also know how to fight in a formation also!

 

[Proto Persona]

In most of the fiction I've read where goblins are actually effective, they don't work like regiments or troops like you guys are discussing. The goblins tend to work like a swarm of cockroaches. I'm not talking about an advantage in numbers of a few hundred more goblins either. I'm talking 100 men versus 10,000 goblins. In almost all fiction I've read goblins also breed like roaches too.

The goblins don't individually try to be effective. Instead, they suicidally throw themselves en masse at enemies and overwhelm them with sheer numbers, poking small blades into any exposed joint or opening. While heavily armored foes can fend of a few enemies, they can't do much against a dozen small creatures crawling all over their body simultaneously. Doubly so if the goblins begin dismantling the plates themselves.

That said, there have also been settings where goblins and other small statured folk are inhumanly strong, often attributed to their higher magical nature.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Well, have the ever read about Tucker's Kobolds?

That was a very formative reading in my understanding of how threatening Goblins and other small sentient pack based enemies can be threats.

You must be registered to see the links

The basic logic is that the entire nature of Goblin strategy would be about breaking up organized human formations, and surrounding and bringing down individual humans. An example might be Mongol style fake retreat tactics.

 

[TheSexinati]

The goblins don't individually try to be effective. Instead, they suicidally throw themselves en masse at enemies and overwhelm them with sheer numbers, poking small blades into any exposed joint or opening. While heavily armored foes can fend of a few enemies, they can't do much against a dozen small creatures crawling all over their body simultaneously. Doubly so if the goblins begin dismantling the plates themselves.

That doesn't seem like it would be that effective at all. Not if they are facing opponents in formation. I have actual (Rather slim, I should note) experience... and there is no advantage I can see in charging in haphazardly against a formation that sees you and is ready for you... nor is it a good way of going about tackling a formation. Goblins don't have the mass to start pushing a group of men about, and if they did, there are ways to lessen that impact. The only thing a haphazard charge will get you is a lot of dead Gobbo's. I might not have stated this, but the difference between singular people and a group of them together are two utterly different things.

Also, climbing over people just plain isn't smart if you are dealing with a formation. There's a reason why you don't see these tactics ever used in history. One reason being that well, formations aren't a solid block and people can move in and out from within without affecting the overall shape of a formation that much. (Actually, I should point out that tight formational fighting was actually fairly rare) This means that if a Goblin decides to climb on someone, said Human will likely be backed up by someone within his formation, who will probably begin by pulling them off and then daggering them repeatedly.

There were actually men armed with bucklers and swords way back in the 1600's, whose job was to duck down under a pike formation and try to break things up, namely by killing the enemy from within their pike formation. This job was really, really damned dangerous, because people can attack from within a formation.

Now, on another tangent... If you had enough Goblins climbing on people, you could disrupt a formation... and that is important. The thing about people is, we're actually more like gigantic monkeys than you'd think. We like being within large groups before we start flinging shit at eachother. However, if you disrupt a formation... and worse yet, put a hole within a formation, people are very likely going to rout. This is an important thing to consider. On the otherhand, you're probably going to end up with a lot of Dead goblins before this happens.

Furthermore, poking small blades might work pretty well if your enemy is not very well armoured. But against anyone with more substantial armour, that tactic will be severely lacking.

Additionally, the difference between attacking a guy in the leg that isn't armoured, and attacking one that is... is a night and day difference. For one thing, plate armour rather likes dealing with points, primarily by being a hard, curved metallic surface, as such, most attacks with a point will tend to glance off. Additionally, you need a lot, and I need to emphasise this, a lot of energy to bypass these defenses. This therefore makes randomised, non-thought-out strikes rather useless. In all the Renaissance manuals theres usually a couple of ways to go about making armoured people die. The more well advertised ways is not to make random attacks, but to actually make precise ones towards the gaps in a given armour. However, I should say that whilst this seems easy in writing, in reality... people actually expect you to go after these and they conciously make it much, much harder for you to go about exploiting this. You can also go about it with the 'Fiore' flare... from the Axe in armour section. The man pretty much goes "You see this poleaxe... Beat that fuckers visor into his head with the fucker and call it a day!"... Which is a rather bluntly pragmatic way of going about the business of killing people in armour.

Simply put, if you want to kill a person in plate armour. You need to do it in the proper way. Any other way is liable to end up with the guy beating the complete shit out of you.

Additionally, dismantling plate armour is not going to be easy. The only plates that I can see being removed that would be easy are spaulders and perhaps the arm harness, which are generally secured by things called 'Points' or 'Arming points'. But even here, it's not as hopeless as it would seem for the armoured man. More often than not, there are portions of an arming doublet which are covered in mail voiders (Which generally consists of maile sleeves which may cover most of the arm). This is another line of defense that then has to be defeated. An arming doublet on the otherhand, which generally only consists of several layers of stout linen or fustian, and maybe some batting, won't offer much in the way of protection. So it could be viable. But I sorely cannot recommend trying to defeat a armoured person by pulling at his 'poyntes'. That just exposes you to hugs. And I don't mean the nice kind, I'm talking hugs with dagger thrusts here, no kisses or affectionate goodbyes, just death.

That said, if you have... I don't know, say, 100,000 vs 10,000 Goblins vs Humans (As you have stated), swamping them certainly is a viable tactic. The thing about climbing on humans though... it's pretty fucking stupid from my point of view, even if you do have a numerical advantage. I would highly suggest not getting your Goblin army to do that.

Either way. I really recommend that these Goblins use ranged weapons. There's no point where the solution to the problem is climbing on people when you can simply cover the fuckers with crossbow bolts. It'll save lives for your Goblins and make life miserable for the enemy.

Well, have the ever read about Tucker's Kobolds?

That was a very formative reading in my understanding of how threatening Goblins and other small sentient pack based enemies can be threats.

You must be registered to see the links

The basic logic is that the entire nature of Goblin strategy would be about breaking up organized human formations, and surrounding and bringing down individual humans. An example might be Mongol style fake retreat tactics.

That utterly makes complete sense to me. I should have thought about how mounts can affect things, I actually didn't think about that when I was writing the last comment.

Hell, going on about that now. Goblins as cavalry would be to my mind, very efficient. One, you actually conveniently take care of their height disadvantage and two, their height and mass is actually an advantage. Because they are lighter, they will likely put less of a strain on their mounts. This means that their mounts will likely have more stamina compared to if a human was sitting on them.

Armed with Javelins, I think this would be a very viable way of warfare for the Goblins. They could possibly use crossbows from horseback too, but they'll probably need a crannequin in order to span them properly.

It'll probably look rather like this... obviously just with Goblins rather than Humans.


So pretty much the Goblins will be like Rome's Numidian cavalry. Yeah, this is something!

Not to mention that you could probably armour a Goblin fairly decently without having too much of an impact on the horse's performance, so they could theoretically face off against Humans directly. I'd wager they'd be more effective against a routing foe, but they would be handy in a pinch in a flanking action.

I'm not sure how armoured Goblin + Horse barding would affect the stamina of a horse, however, It would certainly be an improvement compared to armoured Human + horse barding.

Okay... looks like I'm recruiting Goblins next time in SOC! Orcs, you've had your fun... but are you Javelin-throwing Horseback Goblins? No, I thought not.

Oh, and by the way. Goblins throwing molotov cocktails... totally viable. Just give them a staff-sling. Slings and Staff-slings are great for hurling incendiaries. You only need look to Olaus Magnus for inspiration (Though with red hot pieces of iron, rather than molotov cocktails).

“But, where there were no stones, which was seldom seen, they cast into the forts as forcible as they may, a piece of iron that is glowing red hot, which they put with a pair of tongs, into the sling. They will make such a violent wound and torture, that it can hardly ever or never cured with the help of the physician.”

This was in relation to Finnish Staff-slingers hurling red-hot iron pieces into a Swedish fortification.

I'm thankful no one has caught onto this yet. Humans would be fucked if say, Minotaurs discovered these things. It's all fun and games until Minotaurs rock up with their cocks out armed with fucking boulder-sized slingstones and javelin-sized arrows. Armour ain't gonna do jack shit against those. The only counter to my mind to that shit is that the Human's will probably have to go all Roman Legionary on their ass and have a fuck-ton of scorpions or, I guess a more medieval weapon might be a springald. Unless like, They have mages or something who can conjure forth "Fuck you and your mother" powers and Bootz the Minotaurs to death with glowing magical fireballs and shit.

On that note. Where are the Minotaur's bro! When will Rowan be leading an army of Minotaurs brah! Give us that shit.

 

[T51bwinterized]

By "Mongol style retreat tactics" I don't mean "Ride horses". I simply mean battlefield trickery like faking being routed so that the humans would break formation, and then turning around to strike once the formation is broken.

The fundamental problem with strategies like that in history is that it simply takes a really disciplined army with good communication to stop it from being turned into a real rout. But, Goblins are already well organized, disciplined, and better at mid-battle communication.

The essential goal of any Goblin army during a formation battle is...to make it stop being a formation battle. The more disorganized the humans are, the better the goblins are, because they maintain unit cohesion much more effectively outside of strict formation.

 

[TheSexinati]

By "Mongol style retreat tactics" I don't mean "Ride horses". I simply mean battlefield trickery like faking being routed so that the humans would break formation, and then turning around to strike once the formation is broken.

The fundamental problem with strategies like that in history is that it simply takes a really disciplined army with good communication to stop it from being turned into a real rout. But, Goblins are already well organized, disciplined, and better at mid-battle communication.

The essential goal of any Goblin army during a formation battle is...to make it stop being a formation battle. The more disorganized the humans are, the better the goblins are, because they maintain unit cohesion much more effectively outside of strict formation.

Ah, that makes sense as well. Proper feigned retreats are very difficult to pull off. I take it you want the Goblins to pull off a '1066' and then fuck the Humans over if they take the bait? Pretty solid plan.

That said, that tactic does face difficulty if the Human's don't pursue. Either because they don't feel secure in their position (Possible), or because they feel that it could be a farce. If it is done too quickly, I might simply look as though they are disengaging from the fight to take a breather before reforming to fight again.

If this is the case (They think the Goblins are withdrawing for a breather), then it is possible that the Humans will think that they have an opportunity to strike from an advantage (They are less exhausted), and so they might advance forwards. However, it likely won't be a trickle of men moving forward, but rather the whole formation. This would not be ideal. However, if they are on a hill, you could be able to force them down the slope, which could be advantageous.

So I think it would be more beneficial to get the Goblins on a particular side to rout, then have the centre and the other side slowly disengage from combat slowly. 1, this will look a lot more like a natural rout and 2, This might make the Humans on the side with no goblins try an evelopement from the flank of the Goblins in the centre, exposing them when the Goblins quickly turn back.

Alternatively, do the same thing, but then have the middle and other flank retreat after some time. This could make the Humans rush forward, and thus playing into the Goblin's plan.

Either way. That can be a very good way of dealing with Formations. However, not everyone falls for that trick. A commander with some experienced with Goblins likely won't fall for it, for example. As they say only a fool falls for a trap twice. I would also assume that there is likely some precedent where Humans have fought Goblins before and likely wrote it down, so other commanders who are well-read could have some insight into how Goblins might try to win an engagement.

On the otherhand, you can also have segments or even large groups of soldiers/knights disobeying orders to 'Not engage' the routing enemies. That can also come into play. Routing enemies are tempting targets, and those more booty hungry will likely take the bait.

 

[T51bwinterized]

Yes, if they did it enough times it would become a known tactic. Much like how Mongol baiting tactics became less devastating over time to the Europeans. But, it still did work sometimes, partially because it even spooked the Europeans into not trusting genuine routs and because it requires troop discipline to face.

However, I was using it as an example of the way the Goblins would face formations. They'd probably use all sorts of tricks, terrain and fortifications, and detachment based efforts to try to break human formations. Goblin warfare would be a case study in the value of formation, numbers, and detachment tactics when faced by a more technically competent formation fighting force.

 

[TheSexinati]

I have actually fallen for a feigned retreat once. Me and like seven other guys were winning and the other guys started running back. We were like "Lets fuck them up Lol"... We got like two and then all of sudden they turned around and we were like "Oh shit"

We got fucked, It Was complete fun. I miss it!

Edit: By the way, when you say numbers win wars, don't take it as an absolutism. As I have said before, numbers certainly do count. But it's not the deciding factor.

The general implication by many academics is that Logistics win wars. I tend to trust the academics. Numbers can win battles.

If you have documents or sources that point me to the contrary, I will definitely go through them, Wherein numbers, and solely numbers are the sheer, unequivocal reason why such and such War were solely won by numbers, numbers and numbers alone, I may change my opinion on this matter. But for now, I'm going to stand here on the side of Logistics being one of the deciding factors determining the outcome of wars. For the reason that the logistical situation informs the Strategic outlook, which Informs the Tactical considerations going forward.

It doesn't matter if you have 100 or 100,000 if you can't feed them, water them or supply them, their not going to fight. This is why I have stated that Logistics is an important factor to consider. Disagree or not, call me a cunt or not, I'm gonna stand my ground here on this point. You cannot tell me that Logistics isn't a factor. Dislike me or not.

Edit 2: And I suppose if this sounds heated. Or anything of the sort, It's all good.

Edit 3: Here is my reason for so stoutly thinking about logistics.

Lets assume that Every Goblin requires 300 grams of grain each day (Let's forget water, or fodder and similar such things)... Lets assume we have two armies. One 5000 strong, and another that is 50,000 strong.

5000 x 0.3kg = 1,500kg grain.

50,000 x 0.3kg = 15,000kg grain.

Day in, day out. If this number does not arrive each day, Goblins may have to supplement some of their supply by foraging (Which means that over time, they may deplete the resources in an area and will have to move on). Also consider that the more they progress in a military campaign, the longer the supply chain will have to stretch, which may mean that more food may be lost due to spoilage over the journey, stolen by the enemy or otherwise used to feed the baggage animals. This is all during a war. Do you set up a semi-permanent supply depot within enemy territory? Doing so may tie up men to garrison these supply depots, but may make the situation easier.

Now, imagine having to stockpile these resources before a war is declared. You have to stockpile, store, and ultimately find a way to get these provisions from your depot to your soldiers, guarding the stores meanwhile from thieves, potentially corrupt officials... and so on and so forth. Can you collect enough grain within several harvests to provide a full season-long campaign for 50,000 soldiers or 5,000 soldiers? Can you coerce, bribe or steal supplies to obtain more? Do you need more time? Can you attain a quick victory with 50,000 before the food runs out, or is it better to risk it with 5,000?

These are factors which will ultimately affect how one will go into a war. And they are usually decided before a war begins. And the logistical ability at that time will very likely inform a general of his initial strategic outlook. As war begins, the logistical situation may change over time and so the General's overall strategic outlook may change. This is where I think numbers can be both a great asset, or a burden.

When it comes to war. Someone's gotta think about the food.

Long story short. Numbers won't count for shit if you can't feed them. Feeding them is Logistics.

If you can feed them, supply them, and can continue to supply them until they've won. Then yes. Numbers can win. But It's the Logistics that gets them there, puts new swords in their hands, and gives them blankets.

Edit 4: Oh, and a Final note. If people don't want my personal Inputs on things (Such as my viewpoints from a ground level based on my personal experience), just tell me to fuck off in a PM or something. I'll get the message Y'know.

 

[DSHMITT]

anyone else think it's pretty funny that people are discussing military strategy in a dark fantasy eroge game's thread?

 

[kaorok]

Man, I was wringing my head trying to remember what the title of this game was. I am so out of the loop, I can't even remember what the latest version I played was. Still, one of the best, not just because of great 2d art and bi action!