Well thats a shame, i also tried to start a new game and it still gives me errors, do you know how to delete the save files completely and have a fresh game?
oh i also have gallery unlock if that has anything to do with it, do you also know how to delete it?
so with how little time i have to play these games, i finally managed to re-run a playthrough again to week 53 and got to play most of the new events.
Liurial Finale:
don't know if the "threes company" is part of that new content in this update. however i haven't played the newer variant yet, so here is my experience. i like the build up of the scene way more now, though it is still kinda strange that rowan admits he cheats on alexia with liurial, alexia is obviously angry, but nevertheless is convinced to join in a threesome. i know there are certain reasons, which make it perfectly explainable why alexia would agree to this. however the agency of this scene is by rowan and there is little detail as to why rowan could come to the conclusion he should push the subject. i think it would be better to change mid scene, or make alexia the protagonist in the first place, to make alexia reconsider. like rowan tells her why he did what he did, so alexia can remember the outcome of the greyhide and xzaratl events as a choice (if it happened) and remember she wasn't faithful to him either (if it happened), which would let the scene continue in favor of the threesome, or she would be downright angry at him breaking the vow (or again, if helayna was claimed) and disapprove of his infidelity. then a high relation check would lead rowan to tell her he would share his "property" with her, since marriage is about the unity of both of them. then the player gets a choice for alexia to accept him having a sextoy on the side, or to test the boundaries of his proposal by bringing up the threesome herself.
in the sex scene itself, i only have one small dissonance. while rowan is fucking liurial, he brings out her stark submission kink, in a hastily made sentence. alexia is new to the relationship rowan and liurial have in bed and is willing to have her husband continue said relationship. yet she is instantly barraged with a peculiar kink, which could freak out participants that neither are accustomed to it nor expect such a kink being casually brought into a group experience. this can easily kill the mood for such a participant.
otherwise is this a great improvement from the previous event and a much more plausible construction of the event structure. it's far more easier accessible too! and i really really liked that it took the possible story-lines of greyhide, xzaratl and helayna into account, as it increases continuity, which is in my opinion one of THE biggest assets a choice based game has to improve likability and quality.
funnily enough, in the de facto finale, jezera proved to be a seriously annoying bitch. which was great! giving rowan an impossible task and still being able to win, made this exceptionally suspenseful. however there comes the, probably coding, problem. i had to cheat rowan into the negatives to actually not win against torlene. again this was funny to me, as i kinda liked the defeated rowan scene the most. that rowan, even though he could have died, tried his all to protect a woman that was not his wife, but endangered his wife with this as well, made this so incredibly bittersweet. [also doing the torlene "wins" path, lead my game to spew out errors about (NameError: name 'torleneFate' is not defined) probably because the choice set to decide torlene's fate couldn't pop up, as i lost the duel]
and then jezera using your plea for mercy, to make sure that you have torlene as enemy for the rest of your or his life, fantastic!
also i think liurial proved that jezera never could have gotten her as a spy, as jezera's assumption that liurial could be persuaded by the most domineering hand, was her being shortsighted. not realizing that liurial wants to give up control over herself, to be cared for and not that she wants to being dominated because she puts pleasure over her well-being.
Chaos Incursions:
i might have missed something, or am just obtuse. but how can i access these? are they exploration events, or ruler events? or do they happen after rastedel? because i have yet to find any of them.
New Jezera Events:
very good! as much as i like having to play a game against a twin, as a stated above in the liurial events, i very much enjoy playing in favor of jezera as well.
jezera seems to prefer the fairer sex in general, or rather despises some of the antics she projects every man is slave to. so it's a nice dynamic for her to accept rowan as her pupil in matters she suspects women to be better at.
not much to say to the cubi event, other than i liked it.
for madeline, i would like to see her meet helayna in a twisted reunion, as both were trained to be bedslaves by rowan (given if the route was taken).
i have my suspicions that despite jezera telling rowan to not creampie her, she is happier if he does, that this could lead to jezera using madeline as a wedge between rowan and alexia, by getting madeline get pregnant by rowan.
so i look forward to future madeline scenes (if it will be continued at all. but i dearly hope so).
in conclusion i am also looking forward to future jezera favour scenes and am wondering if something similar can be included with andras.
Blackholt Introductions:
seeing tue-row in rowan garb, seems to make the goblins as a pretty obvious choice for rowan to recruit, as they very likely could be turned to loyal friends for rowans cause alone.
given the fact that neither zii nor che-lin are necessary to recruit the goblins, makes me question what the downside of recruiting the goblins is. especially as zii seems to be easily convinced if you somehow get tue-row to dominate her and che-lin probably can be persuaded by rowan by... well, being himself.
all in all, is the story of the blackholt goblins interesting, even though i expected them to be a far cruelly than cla-min's goblins and recruiting them be a equally questionable task, as is the recruitment of the orcs. not a bad concept on it's own and it might be refreshing to not have another evil evil, but a okayish evil or rather a not really evil. however the pretty understandably position of the goblins they now propose, leads further to the idea that solansia is actually the bad one.
maybe that is an intended prospect, but given that we play a human from a previously human ruled society, seems to be the only reason we should root for the "good" side to win. and that is a rather meagre reason. all other aspects of the game force you to do the "bad" thing, in the hopes that enduring the corruption will eventually reward you. of course you could want to play the evil rowan and don't feel bad about the corruption, as you have plenty of reasons to not be gulity about it. however playing as a righteous rowan, the goblins leave you with little incentive to remain righteous. and i see that as a threat to the fundamental theme of the game, that you always have to fight with the corruption. if the fight against the corruption is baseless, the fun of the corruption loses it's bite.
i'm not saying that the blackholt introduction is badly written, nor that i don't enjoy the direction it takes (because i do enjoy it, regardless of what i stated above). just that, that so far how the event goes, it let's miss the dire atmosphere the whole game keeps up thus far. in the benchmark of seeds of chaos's usual atmosphere, the recruitment of the goblins seems to be a happy event.
so with how little time i have to play these games, i finally managed to re-run a playthrough again to week 53 and got to play most of the new events.
Liurial Finale:
don't know if the "threes company" is part of that new content in this update. however i haven't played the newer variant yet, so here is my experience. i like the build up of the scene way more now, though it is still kinda strange that rowan admits he cheats on alexia with liurial, alexia is obviously angry, but nevertheless is convinced to join in a threesome. i know there are certain reasons, which make it perfectly explainable why alexia would agree to this. however the agency of this scene is by rowan and there is little detail as to why rowan could come to the conclusion he should push the subject. i think it would be better to change mid scene, or make alexia the protagonist in the first place, to make alexia reconsider. like rowan tells her why he did what he did, so alexia can remember the outcome of the greyhide and xzaratl events as a choice (if it happened) and remember she wasn't faithful to him either (if it happened), which would let the scene continue in favor of the threesome, or she would be downright angry at him breaking the vow (or again, if helayna was claimed) and disapprove of his infidelity. then a high relation check would lead rowan to tell her he would share his "property" with her, since marriage is about the unity of both of them. then the player gets a choice for alexia to accept him having a sextoy on the side, or to test the boundaries of his proposal by bringing up the threesome herself.
in the sex scene itself, i only have one small dissonance. while rowan is fucking liurial, he brings out her stark submission kink, in a hastily made sentence. alexia is new to the relationship rowan and liurial have in bed and is willing to have her husband continue said relationship. yet she is instantly barraged with a peculiar kink, which could freak out participants that neither are accustomed to it nor expect such a kink being casually brought into a group experience. this can easily kill the mood for such a participant.
otherwise is this a great improvement from the previous event and a much more plausible construction of the event structure. it's far more easier accessible too! and i really really liked that it took the possible story-lines of greyhide, xzaratl and helayna into account, as it increases continuity, which is in my opinion one of THE biggest assets a choice based game has to improve likability and quality.
funnily enough, in the de facto finale, jezera proved to be a seriously annoying bitch. which was great! giving rowan an impossible task and still being able to win, made this exceptionally suspenseful. however there comes the, probably coding, problem. i had to cheat rowan into the negatives to actually not win against torlene. again this was funny to me, as i kinda liked the defeated rowan scene the most. that rowan, even though he could have died, tried his all to protect a woman that was not his wife, but endangered his wife with this as well, made this so incredibly bittersweet. [also doing the torlene "wins" path, lead my game to spew out errors about (NameError: name 'torleneFate' is not defined) probably because the choice set to decide torlene's fate couldn't pop up, as i lost the duel]
and then jezera using your plea for mercy, to make sure that you have torlene as enemy for the rest of your or his life, fantastic!
also i think liurial proved that jezera never could have gotten her as a spy, as jezera's assumption that liurial could be persuaded by the most domineering hand, was her being shortsighted. not realizing that liurial wants to give up control over herself, to be cared for and not that she wants to being dominated because she puts pleasure over her well-being.
Chaos Incursions:
i might have missed something, or am just obtuse. but how can i access these? are they exploration events, or ruler events? or do they happen after rastedel? because i have yet to find any of them.
New Jezera Events:
very good! as much as i like having to play a game against a twin, as a stated above in the liurial events, i very much enjoy playing in favor of jezera as well.
jezera seems to prefer the fairer sex in general, or rather despises some of the antics she projects every man is slave to. so it's a nice dynamic for her to accept rowan as her pupil in matters she suspects women to be better at.
not much to say to the cubi event, other than i liked it.
for madeline, i would like to see her meet helayna in a twisted reunion, as both were trained to be bedslaves by rowan (given if the route was taken).
i have my suspicions that despite jezera telling rowan to not creampie her, she is happier if he does, that this could lead to jezera using madeline as a wedge between rowan and alexia, by getting madeline get pregnant by rowan.
so i look forward to future madeline scenes (if it will be continued at all. but i dearly hope so).
in conclusion i am also looking forward to future jezera favour scenes and am wondering if something similar can be included with andras.
Blackholt Introductions:
seeing tue-row in rowan garb, seems to make the goblins as a pretty obvious choice for rowan to recruit, as they very likely could be turned to loyal friends for rowans cause alone.
given the fact that neither zii nor che-lin are necessary to recruit the goblins, makes me question what the downside of recruiting the goblins is. especially as zii seems to be easily convinced if you somehow get tue-row to dominate her and che-lin probably can be persuaded by rowan by... well, being himself.
all in all, is the story of the blackholt goblins interesting, even though i expected them to be a far cruelly than cla-min's goblins and recruiting them be a equally questionable task, as is the recruitment of the orcs. not a bad concept on it's own and it might be refreshing to not have another evil evil, but a okayish evil or rather a not really evil. however the pretty understandably position of the goblins they now propose, leads further to the idea that solansia is actually the bad one.
maybe that is an intended prospect, but given that we play a human from a previously human ruled society, seems to be the only reason we should root for the "good" side to win. and that is a rather meagre reason. all other aspects of the game force you to do the "bad" thing, in the hopes that enduring the corruption will eventually reward you. of course you could want to play the evil rowan and don't feel bad about the corruption, as you have plenty of reasons to not be gulity about it. however playing as a righteous rowan, the goblins leave you with little incentive to remain righteous. and i see that as a threat to the fundamental theme of the game, that you always have to fight with the corruption. if the fight against the corruption is baseless, the fun of the corruption loses it's bite.
i'm not saying that the blackholt introduction is badly written, nor that i don't enjoy the direction it takes (because i do enjoy it, regardless of what i stated above). just that, that so far how the event goes, it let's miss the dire atmosphere the whole game keeps up thus far. in the benchmark of seeds of chaos's usual atmosphere, the recruitment of the goblins seems to be a happy event.
Finally some good fucking feedback. (On the new release- there has been some good stuff about old content)
It was getting a little stale in here with all the bitching about there being no 'replay mod.' Pretty discouraging to see folks only interested in the sex scenes when there is a great story building up. Also like.....be better pirates; its not that hard to access the shit you want to see.
Some pirates cannot even properly pirate shit.
As for your feedback- a few thoughts.
1) Liurial Finale:
The three's Company rework- it was added back into the game in two builds prior to this one. I can kinda see the logic behind what you said in regards to playing from Alexia's POV as I have a similar criticism of the Greyhide plot. Seems like an active design decision by the Devs not to change POV during an actual scene though- for better or worse.
In my mind the depth of the Liurial conversation with Alexia and the depth of the conditional system for her acceptance deflects this criticism for the most part. The event has its own internal tracker with tons of variables like R x A relationship, NTR or Nah, Diplomacy checks, Being faithful or not, Lying or not, deception checks if you do lie.
Surprised there isn't a $kitchensink = true flag in it- because it threw everything at us
Regarding your other criticism of the scene in the event about Alexia's reaction to Mdom- I can kinda see that. To some degree Liu is the Mdom route so it is to be expected; though you do want Alexia's response to it initially to be naturalistic.
Actually kinda reminded me of something I was surprised about. I kinda figured the Liurial plot Sex scene finale would end up being Alexia's gateway drug into the concept that it might be fun to try it with Rowan. Rather expected it might be some sort of 3some option at the end of the route- where they could experiement with her curiosity.
More or less agree to the cut of your jib regarding the actual finale. My man!
2) Chaos incursions:
The revamped map needs to be finished for them to work as they intend them to in the long run. For now they seem to just work as your weekly event proc in the Castle. Kinda like a miniature event chain.
3) Jezera:
You raised a few interesting hypotheticals. Who knows what Rein has planned for it. I'm not even gonna try to speculate until the chains are further along. Even with his longer chains it is hard to predict where they might go- which is always fun.
4) Blackholt:
I think it may be easy to conflate the Blackholt Goblin's general whimsy with a lack of darkness. Backstabbing each-other, general betrayal, and some dark moments seem to almost be culturally accepted by the Blackholt goblins.
If you read between the lines though a lot of them have been up to some really evil and ruthless shenanigans. Tue-Row is fucking doggedly merciless in his pursuit of his dream. Including betraying his own mother figure and friend by LITERALLY stabbing her. Zii-Zii and her goblin crew seem little better than animals in regards to moral considerations.
It feels like whimsy now- but the 'Sword of Damocles' is going to fall - and when it does a lot of Gob heads will be rolling.
And then- probably back to whimsy since that seems to be what Blackholt Goblin culture does in the face of almost culturally expected and accepted backstabbing.
I will briefly point out that one of the distinctions is the mechanics of sexual content. In Orciad, the faction leaders were not the main sexual focus, and at most got a single sex scene. The bulk of the sexual dynamics of the arc was carried by Delane, who is meant to be clearly the most personable charachter in Orciad.
Meanwhile, you're supposed to LIKE the gobbo primary cast, since they ARE going to be the focus of a lot of sexual content. And when desinging a characchter to be likeable, first impressions are often important.
Finally some good fucking feedback. (On the new release- there has been some good stuff about old content)
It was getting a little stale in here with all the bitching about there being no 'replay mod.' Pretty discouraging to see folks only interested in the sex scenes when there is a great story building up. Also like.....be better pirates; its not that hard to access the shit you want to see.
Some pirates cannot even properly pirate shit.
As for your feedback- a few thoughts.
1) Liurial Finale:
The three's Company rework- it was added back into the game in two builds prior to this one. I can kinda see the logic behind what you said in regards to playing from Alexia's POV as I have a similar criticism of the Greyhide plot. Seems like an active design decision by the Devs not to change POV during an actual scene though- for better or worse.
In my mind the depth of the Liurial conversation with Alexia and the depth of the conditional system for her acceptance deflects this criticism for the most part. The event has its own internal tracker with tons of variables like R x A relationship, NTR or Nah, Diplomacy checks, Being faithful or not, Lying or not, deception checks if you do lie.
Surprised there isn't a $kitchensink = true flag in it- because it threw everything at us
Regarding your other criticism of the scene in the event about Alexia's reaction to Mdom- I can kinda see that. To some degree Liu is the Mdom route so it is to be expected; though you do want Alexia's response to it initially to be naturalistic.
Actually kinda reminded me of something I was surprised about. I kinda figured the Liurial plot Sex scene finale would end up being Alexia's gateway drug into the concept that it might be fun to try it with Rowan. Rather expected it might be some sort of 3some option at the end of the route- where they could experiement with her curiosity.
More or less agree to the cut of your jib regarding the actual finale. My man!
2) Chaos incursions:
The revamped map needs to be finished for them to work as they intend them to in the long run. For now they seem to just work as your weekly event proc in the Castle. Kinda like a miniature event chain.
3) Jezera:
You raised a few interesting hypotheticals. Who knows what Rein has planned for it. I'm not even gonna try to speculate until the chains are further along. Even with his longer chains it is hard to predict where they might go- which is always fun.
4) Blackholt:
I think it may be easy to conflate the Blackholt Goblin's general whimsy with a lack of darkness. Backstabbing each-other, general betrayal, and some dark moments seem to almost be culturally accepted by the Blackholt goblins.
If you read between the lines though a lot of them have been up to some really evil and ruthless shenanigans. Tue-Row is fucking doggedly merciless in his pursuit of his dream. Including betraying his own mother figure and friend by LITERALLY stabbing her. Zii-Zii and her goblin crew seem little better than animals in regards to moral considerations.
It feels like whimsy now- but the 'Sword of Damocles' is going to fall - and when it does a lot of Gob heads will be rolling.
And then- probably back to whimsy since that seems to be what Blackholt Goblin culture does in the face of almost culturally expected and accepted backstabbing.
as rowan grudgingly had to hear over and over: "goblin politics"
yeah no, that the goblins can be brutal on each other, or that the current situation of the goblins is concerning, is in the dark theme of SoC pretty fitting, i never doubted that. it's just that it's nothing rowan would be emotionally invested in, and to an extend we the player as well. aside from some characters like cla-min we do not care for the fate of the goblins, in a broader sense. like we would not care if every orc gets wasted by andras on the battlefield. they are a race of chaos and as such the enemy of solansia's order. what we did care about in the orcciad, was that we can betray a noble woman to a horrible fate, for nothing but some personal gain (like selling your soul to gain an army) and the ever looming fear that we very well know what orcs will do whenever we take them to the field. i mean even the driders impose the latter prospect, though they are not an army on their own. but it's like we are a horror factory and obtaining resources like orcs and driders, is the building stone to increase the output of our horror factory. what kinda building stone is the goblins?
(again, i do not criticize the events in their quality nor in my personal enjoyment. i solely state that they not yet incite a moral conundrum, which i find lacking.)
I will briefly point out that one of the distinctions is the mechanics of sexual content. In Orciad, the faction leaders were not the main sexual focus, and at most got a single sex scene. The bulk of the sexual dynamics of the arc was carried by Delane, who is meant to be clearly the most personable charachter in Orciad.
Meanwhile, you're supposed to LIKE the gobbo primary cast, since they ARE going to be the focus of a lot of sexual content. And when desinging a characchter to be likeable, first impressions are often important.
that makes a lot of sense. however a solution to that could look like: having zii and che-lin as optional allies to put tue-row in a advantageous position against other goblin faction(s), which the twins so far favour. and then those faction leader(s) could be the unlikable antagonist(s) of the recruitment arc.
Person who was updating it disappeared in some sort, so for now there won't be any as far as i know. You can try your luck with sending some dm's to other modders on this site with a hope that they'll be up to the task. If you want ofc.
as rowan grudgingly had to hear over and over: "goblin politics"
yeah no, that the goblins can be brutal on each other, or that the current situation of the goblins is concerning, is in the dark theme of SoC pretty fitting, i never doubted that. it's just that it's nothing rowan would be emotionally invested in, and to an extend we the player as well. aside from some characters like cla-min we do not care for the fate of the goblins, in a broader sense. like we would not care if every orc gets wasted by andras on the battlefield. they are a race of chaos and as such the enemy of solansia's order. what we did care about in the orcciad, was that we can betray a noble woman to a horrible fate, for nothing but some personal gain (like selling your soul to gain an army) and the ever looming fear that we very well know what orcs will do whenever we take them to the field. i mean even the driders impose the latter prospect, though they are not an army on their own. but it's like we are a horror factory and obtaining resources like orcs and driders, is the building stone to increase the output of our horror factory. what kinda building stone is the goblins?
(again, i do not criticize the events in their quality nor in my personal enjoyment. i solely state that they not yet incite a moral conundrum, which i find lacking.)
that makes a lot of sense. however a solution to that could look like: having zii and che-lin as optional allies to put tue-row in a advantageous position against other goblin faction(s), which the twins so far favour. and then those faction leader(s) could be the unlikable antagonist(s) of the recruitment arc.
Good points which is rare when I lurk here, I personally love the Goblin plot feeling in stark contrast to the grim dark tone of the orciad, it feels right that they should feel vividly different and distinct. Not all green skins amirite
But I also feel that the Goblin plot is going to allow for that middle ground route option for a more grey get the job done Rowan but not overly "evil" (Fear when a righteous mans hand is forced) a Rowan who is tired of the system he has been forced to suffer with his whole life and wants change but does not think the twins are the right ones for the job! The Goblins being much less allies at all costs brutal Rowan (Ulcro, Tarish routes) but allowing Rowan to see a new side of another race coming to accept and understand that the Goblins once ruled the lands he calls home taking his time to be enriched in their history and culture.
First comment on here as I usually just like to watch with popcorn, but I truly like the direction and tones of the goblin plot so far, I hope it has a magnificent flight and does not crash and burn
I present you lads with a meme for the what is likely to now be the best plot line in SOC.
Idk why but I get the feeling that the goblins are more likely to double cross you if you're not careful than what they seem at first sight (I haven't finished their available content yet tho, I'm waiting for it to be finished). My instinct tells me that a Delaine controlled Ulcro is the safest choice.
Good points which is rare when I lurk here, I personally love the Goblin plot feeling in stark contrast to the grim dark tone of the orciad, it feels right that they should feel vividly different and distinct. Not all green skins amirite
But I also feel that the Goblin plot is going to allow for that middle ground route option for a more grey get the job done Rowan but not overly "evil" (Fear when a righteous mans hand is forced) a Rowan who is tired of the system he has been forced to suffer with his whole life and wants change but does not think the twins are the right ones for the job! The Goblins being much less allies at all costs brutal Rowan (Ulcro, Tarish routes) but allowing Rowan to see a new side of another race coming to accept and understand that the Goblins once ruled the lands he calls home taking his time to be enriched in their history and culture.
First comment on here as I usually just like to watch with popcorn, but I truly like the direction and tones of the goblin plot so far, I hope it has a magnificent flight and does not crash and burn
I present you lads with a meme for the what is likely to now be the best plot line in SOC.
Well if you feel like that, good, but be warned, Goblin Species are known to be deceivers and treacherous, you can be fuck up in the future by them if you don't take care. Just think in Cla-Min and her whole family, from time to time Rowan must be aware of her and even Cla-Min can't control her whole family's business to not get in trouble.
Events with Alexia and Rowan most of the time leads Rowan to become corrupted. Other than the first event with the succubus and the picnic event always turned my character icon to red even though I play Rowan as a good guy.(Including the succubi virility one and the fertility event). When you make Alexia happy as a good husband it leads to corruption. At the end I essentially abandoned Alexia and scolded her for the "selfish" behavior to stay "pure and righteous".Then threw her at the hands of Andras(for Drama).Rowan never cheated on her until Delane at that point of the story Alexia had already reached high corruption.And then lost Delane to Twins.At the end story became really sad.
I think that you can help her escape if you side with Duke Werner but once she has been turned into a fuck statue I think that might be a little dicey.
I think that you can help her escape if you side with Duke Werner but once she has been turned into a fuck statue I think that might be a little dicey.
While it would need to be something the developers would have to go out of their way for, I could see, on a corrupted Rowan route, him wanting to take on corrupting Marianne as a personal project. The value to doing so would be very clear. Marianne is a powerful recognizable magical force. She has recognition from war opposition. She could be used as both a powerful political piece if corrupted to sway more to their side, and made into a powerful warrior on the battlefield that would not only strike at the morale of enemies, but be augmented by the death caused by her powerful magic used against them, both directly through energy projection, but also through empowering the Twins/Rowan's military forces. There would, of course, be sexual appeal in having such a renown figure eagerly lapping at the heels of the Twins in lustful worship too, if not Rowan himself, depending on potential user choices in the future.
But, it's one of those things that while it could certainly work and be fun, it's among many such things in that category. There are thousands of possibilities like this that could be included in the game. While there is a lot of support for the game, it's not feasible for all of them to be developed. This one in particular may have more weight than many others, but, it would be taxing to fully include. Like, turning Marianne to Rowan's or the Twin's side would have very vast impact on how things go. It would probably lead to completely different alternative scenarios to some events. It would likely require more art work to include her in scenes, with some sort of lustful, blood thirsty dark priestess grin and garb, made into a weapon of war and dark warrior priestess knight of lust for the Twin's cause. Maybe there could even be some sort of epic clash of this corrupted version of Marianne clashing with the holy warrior that slayed the previous demon lord. Like, there is a lot of fun things they could do with her, but it would eat up a lot of development resources to fully play into it.
With that being such, it likely depends on how many of their supporters voice interest in such a thing.
