Ren'Py Seeds of Chaos [v0.4.10] [Vénus Noire]

[Raven_Light]

Responding too "And it is even more egregious when, in cases like this game, the audience can choose for the event to happen and then get upset when it happens. Insert the self-inflicted sitck-in-bike-wheel meme. That said, from my understanding, that isn't what DeemLeem12 was upset about with the Greyhide situation. He wasn't upset that he chose for Alexia to cheat he was upset with the results. He wanted there to be more fallout from his choices, for his choices to have serious long term ramifications. Which is a valid stance to take."

Although I do like how you can choose as Rowan to be completely fine bout it, liking it. I do agree with DeemLeem12 there should be a negative choice outcome option. Which is why I'd like to see more focus on Rowan/Alexia with Xzaratl, Greyhide, Jeerza, and Andras, even with the Goblin chick, there's literally no positive or negative plot choice outcome with Alexia by getting the Goblin chick pregnant.

As I said before the choices you make with Xzaratl as Rowan should really affect how Xzaratl proceeds you and Alexia. If you choose dark choices with her for Alexia then that should corrupt Xzaratl thinking in how she wants Rowan and Alexia, which should lead too (Rowan or Alexia), Xzaratl, (Andras, Greyhide, or Jeerza) moments then leading to with other characters slowly over time. Good Choices with Xzaratl being purely just her, with Rowan and Alexia. And there should be that same thought process with good and bad choices with Greyhide as well.

But I don't see any of this happening anytime soon because SOC needs lot of rewriting, but that's bit hard to do for any dev when lot of the focus seems like it is going too "random side characters" over "main side characters." This game really does have a lot more to offer than shown. I hope it comes to light, but if not, I'm not gonna sweat over it. Best of luck too the devs either way .

 

[Big Green]

Rather than quoting all the previous decision, I'm just going to name drop Mfka5/ Big Green as the main ones I'm replying to.

First of all, you both might want to take the combativeness down a notch, less the mods come in to deal with it directly.

That aside, you know what else is harmful? Having your entire family murdered. I would even go so far as to say that it is way more traumatic than being cheated on. But it is still a very popular plot point in fiction. Where is the outcry about its depiction? No one sits down to a nice wholesome revenge action movie and then loudly complains online about the familicide in the inciting incident. (Note that I am being a bit hyperbolic here, obviously there is some small percentage of people that will complain about literally anything, the point is they are an insignificantly small number). It even shows up in otherwise "family friendly" media.

In fact I would posit that most media is about the charater's lives being ruined in some way. Generally speaking we are more interested in stories with high stakes. Thats why there aren't a lot of stories where the main confict is that the local grocery store was out f eggs. Generally speaking it has to be somethign that is ruinous of the characters life, at least from their perspective.

And it is even more egregious when, in cases like this game, the audience can choose for the event to happen and then get upset when it happens. Insert the self-inflicted sitck-in-bike-wheel meme. That said, from my understanding, that isn't what DeemLeem12 was upset about with the Greyhide situation. He wasn't upset that he chose for Alexia to cheat he was upset with the results. He wanted there to be more fallout from his choices, for his choices to have serious long term ramifications. Which is a valid stance to take.

However the argument agains irl harm is rediculous. By that logic the only thing that is harmful is direct harm. Oh your whole family was murdered? Just choose not to be sad/angry. It's not like you were murdered, its all in your mindset bro. That's some psychopathic level of lacking empathy. If you are in complete and total control of your emotions at all times, good for you I guess. But while people are still responsible for the actions they takes, most people are not in control for how they feel in a given situation, and it takes them some time to work through their emotion even in the best cases.

I mean i completely agree with your point. I don't even know why he tried to argue with me in the first place. I never said that ntr is bad for this game only pointed out that it can't be harmless at all like the original message i was refering to. Also i said it on several occasions in this thread that ntr for me is canon in this game, otherwise pure route is kinda stupid. So yeah the whole argument was pointless.

But I don't see any of this happening anytime soon because SOC needs lot of rewriting

Pls God no. This game can't see the first part completion for almost a decade now and we have another 2 down the road.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Responding too "And it is even more egregious when, in cases like this game, the audience can choose for the event to happen and then get upset when it happens. Insert the self-inflicted sitck-in-bike-wheel meme. That said, from my understanding, that isn't what DeemLeem12 was upset about with the Greyhide situation. He wasn't upset that he chose for Alexia to cheat he was upset with the results. He wanted there to be more fallout from his choices, for his choices to have serious long term ramifications. Which is a valid stance to take."

Although I do like how you can choose as Rowan to be completely fine bout it, liking it. I do agree with DeemLeem12 there should be a negative choice outcome option. Which is why I'd like to see more focus on Rowan/Alexia with Xzaratl, Greyhide, Jeerza, and Andras, even with the Goblin chick, there's literally no positive or negative plot choice outcome with Alexia by getting the Goblin chick pregnant.

As I said before the choices you make with Xzaratl as Rowan should really affect how Xzaratl proceeds you and Alexia. If you choose dark choices with her for Alexia then that should corrupt Xzaratl thinking in how she wants Rowan and Alexia, which should lead too (Rowan or Alexia), Xzaratl, (Andras, Greyhide, or Jeerza) moments then leading to with other characters slowly over time. Good Choices with Xzaratl being purely just her, with Rowan and Alexia. And there should be that same thought process with good and bad choices with Greyhide as well.

But I don't see any of this happening anytime soon because SOC needs lot of rewriting, but that's bit hard to do for any dev when lot of the focus seems like it is going too "random side characters" over "main side characters." This game really does have a lot more to offer than shown. I hope it comes to light, but if not, I'm not gonna sweat over it. Best of luck too the devs either way .

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the fallout you are hoping to see is being saved for Part 2.

I think part of the problem this game has is one of pacing. There are a number of popular characters that you can rush through their entire arc at the beginning of the game and then they just become static from that point on. Although narratively their story has only started, when weeks upon weeks of in game time go by with nothing of any significance happening it almost feels that the character was abandoned.

I mean i completely agree with your point. I don't even know why he tried to argue with me in the first place. I never said that ntr is bad for this game only pointed out that it can't be harmless at all like the original message i was refering to. Also i said it on several occasions in this thread that ntr for me is canon in this game, otherwise pure route is kinda stupid. So yeah the whole argument was pointless.

I meant to put this in the above post somewhere, but I guess I forgot about it somewhere along the way. But I initially felt you two were talking past each other. I thought you seemed to be talking about the irl effects of cheating and Mfka5 seemed to be talking about the cheating that happens in the game, at least until he seemed to double down and explicitly called out irl cheating as harmless as well.

Up until that point I was mostly on his side, in that I think that fictional depictions of cheating are no more harmful than fictional depictions of violence. In that for the vast majority of people simply seeing is isn't going to make them want to go out in do it. And for the people it does encourage, they likely had something wrong with them and probably would have ended up doing it anyways.

 

[Big Green]

I meant to put this in the above post somewhere, but I guess I forgot about it somewhere along the way. But I initially felt you two were talking past each other. I thought you seemed to be talking about the irl effects of cheating and @Mfka5 seemed to be talking about the cheating that happens in the game, at least until he seemed to double down and explicitly called out irl cheating as harmless as well.

Up until that point I was mostly on his side, in that I think that fictional depictions of cheating are no more harmful than fictional depictions of violence. In that for the vast majority of people simply seeing is isn't going to make them want to go out in do it. And for the people it does encourage, they likely had something wrong with them and probably would have ended up doing it anyways.

He was trying to engage in the ntr wars with me for some reason there, so that's why you had this feeling.

But still even in games the depiction of ntr usually leads to a harmful conclusion for mc. I never said that it's the player who is being harmed in any way, it's stupid to think otherwise. So yeah, it's not as harmful as a murder for example, but it's not a light topic anyways. And arguing about irl was just insane on his part.

 

[Mfka5]

He was trying to engage in the ntr wars with me for some reason there, so that's why you had this feeling.

But still even in games the depiction of ntr usually leads to a harmful conclusion for mc. I never said that it's the player who is being harmed in any way, it's stupid to think otherwise. So yeah, it's not as harmful as a murder for example, but it's not a light topic anyways. And arguing about irl was just insane on his part.

How am i not gonna do it when you bring up "Oh people ruin families from this, very, very harmful" lol
If anything should be weird on your part.

NTR is nothing, yall too soft.
If a bitch NTRs you, get a new one.
She aint worth it to ruin your life over it.
Yall are overly dramatic about this.
Amateurs

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Just a semi related side note before I finally wash my hands of this whole thing.

But I'm not the only what that thinks referring to real life cheating as NTR is super cringe, right? I mean NTR is a fetish tag, using it for real life situations is just weird. Personally, I would quickly disassociate myself with anyone I heard use it irl unless they were explicitly talking about porn at the time.

 

[Big Green]

How am i not gonna do it when you bring up "Oh people ruin families from this, very, very harmful" lol
If anything should be weird on your part.

NTR is nothing, yall too soft.
If a bitch NTRs you, get a new one.
She aint worth it to ruin your life over it.
Yall are overly dramatic about this.
Amateurs

Good luck to you and your imaginary bitches, but i won't argue with you anymore it's just pointless. The fact that you can't understand that there are also children and it's not always about yourself is just too much. I guess you also didn't hear about collateral damage. And i have to agree with lucky j that it's cringe calling a cheating irl NTR lol. On that note i'm also out.

 

[Slick Bean]

This is a game thread, it is not IRL cry me all rivers ... MC or his demon overlords would never care anyways.

NTR is nothing, yall too soft.
If a bitch NTRs you, get a new one.
She aint worth it to ruin your life over it.
Amateurs

MC and his bethrothed are cannonically still stricken by the blithe of the demons, so no getting out of any misery any time soon.

 

[Mfka5]

Ay man, you started this.
I called out this bullshit of yours.
Where did you get impression i think cheating is ntr.
If you use irl examples you get irl examples.
Anyways, seems like theres no use anymore after that last impression of yours.
Remember, ntr is harmless.
Its only as bad as you make it to be.

 

[Big Green]

Ay man, you started this.
I called out this bullshit of yours.
Where did you get impression i think cheating is ntr.
If you use irl examples you get irl examples.
Anyways, seems like theres no use anymore after that last impression of yours.
Remember, ntr is harmless.
Its only as bad as you make it to be.

Ok i just can't with you, my last response. It's you who brought up irl in the first place. I was talking about families and relationships in game obv because i was talking about a genre (should be obv idk why you couldnt comprehend that). They re almost always ruined there. You started to point that irl it's also ok which is nuts and idk why even bring the irl.

 

[Mfka5]

Mate you said its bad IRL and also harmful in game as well. And thats where i stepped in to dispute this bs

 

[perles75]

Harmless NTR??? lmao man this shit ruins families and lives. Cheating is never a good thing. Not saying that other extreme themes are fine, but saying that NTR is a harmless thing is just delusional.

you're kind of proving the point I was making in the message you quoted...

 

[perles75]

Just a semi related side note before I finally wash my hands of this whole thing.

But I'm not the only what that thinks referring to real life cheating as NTR is super cringe, right? I mean NTR is a fetish tag, using it for real life situations is just weird. Personally, I would quickly disassociate myself with anyone I heard use it irl unless they were explicitly talking about porn at the time.

yeppp

(I would even add, it's not even that interesting as a point of discussion, hence my bafflement to see how it attracts all the attention and heat compared to many other objectively worse things that happen in many games here)

 

[Mfka5]

Look hes even calling ntr cheating.
What a hypocrite

 

[Ataman87]

Can some one explain to me once and for all is NTL cheating , swinging or cuckold ? And why are so many people so upset that some games have it ?!

 

[Big Green]

you're kind of proving the point I was making in the message you quoted...

Your point was that it's not extreme, but it actually is and that's why in a lot of games it's an avoidable thing.

Can some one explain to me once and for all is NTL cheating , swinging or cuckold ? And why are so many people so upset that some games have it ?!

NTL is a dude that's making games and comics. Check out Treasure of Nadia. But if you want a serious answer then NTR is a cuckolding.

 

[Mfka5]

Graphic violence and rape are extreme and often times arent avoidable.
Its just peoples feelings that come into play.
Whether they feel like crying or beyond angry.
Which comes down to being pathetic when you worry about those stuff in a game.

 

[Gicoo]

Can some one explain to me once and for all is NTL cheating , swinging or cuckold ? And why are so many people so upset that some games have it ?!

I hear different definitions of that word whenever its discussed.
One of the reasons why ntr easily leads to arguments.

 

[Jynx_lucky_j]

Can some one explain to me once and for all is NTL cheating , swinging or cuckold ? And why are so many people so upset that some games have it ?!

NTR is an abbreviation the Japanese word "netorare" which means cuckholding. However as a porn tag it meaning has grown and altered a bit, and everyone has developed their own definition, from the very restrictive to the overly broad.

Personally I think the VNDB has the best definition:

For a game to be classified as Netorare the following conditions must be met:

1. The protagonist's significant other, a very close friend, or in some cases, a close relative is stolen from him by someone seducing, coercing, blackmailing, outright raping them, or by using other techniques. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally stolen, but the negative feelings experienced by their significant other might make it seem so.

2. The one who loses their loved one almost always finds out about the situation and suffers from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness arisen from an inability to change anything. The one stealing the lover and/or the stolen loved one might rub it in by humiliating the loser in private or in public.

3. The trait does not apply if the character having sex with someone else does not have a close loving relationship with the protagonist, and if the protagonist does not experience jealousy and other negative feelings upon finding out about the act. In other words, the ties between the partners and their forcible separation is important to the netorare fetish. For example, an unrequited crush or a potential hero(ine) on a different route would not count for the purposes of this fetish.

4. The act of stealing must happen while the protagonist is in a relationship with the stolen significant other. Scenes of heroine's past relationships do not count as Netorare.

The game is usually portrayed from the perspective of someone losing his significant other, in order to delve deep into the jealousy aspect of the fetish, however, for story purposes the game might switch between multiple POVs and also portray the events from the perspective of the stolen SO.

The VNDB also further breaks it down in the several NTR types:

Netorare Type A
The heroine is willingly cheating on the protagonist with another guy and enjoys every second of it. No rape, blackmail, drugs etc. involved, it's consensual sex from the very beginning.

Netorare Type B
Initially, the heroine is raped, blackmailed, drugged or otherwise tricked to have sex with someone other than the protagonist. However, she eventually starts enjoying it and the sex becomes fully consensual in the end.

Netorare Type C
The heroine is raped in front of the protagonist and he can only helplessly watch it. It's non-consensual from start to finish.

Lesbian NTR
The games which contain the scenes with protagonist's female significant other being stolen by another female, should be given this tag.

It's important to note that due to the prevalence of "girl-on-girl is hot" trope, it's common for many VNs to throw in lesbian scenes between the heroine and another female. Most of the time it is not considered NTR due to the protagonist not minding or even encouraging the lesbian exploration of their significant other. Only use the tag if another female clearly has a design to steal the heroine, and the protagonist experiences jealousy and other negative emotions associated with the netorare fetish.

Male Homosexual NTR
This visual novel contains a scene (or multiple scenes) in which a hero is stolen away from the protagonist by another male.

For a game to be classified as Netorare the following conditions must be met:

1. The hero must be close (his\her osananajimi, etc.), romantically involved, or a close relative (brother, father, etc.) with the protagonist.

2. If it is an eroge, related sexual events are explicitly shown or later described in detail.

Reverse Netorare
This visual novel has scenes focused on Reverse Netorare. Unlike

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, the game's focus is not the fetishization of jealousy, but rather the fetishization of seduction and the accompanying destruction of relationship, while elevating a newly formed sexual relationship over a previous one based on feelings.

For a game to be classified as Reverse Netorare the following conditions must be met:

1. The protagonist is stolen from his significant other by someone seducing, coercing, blackmailing, outright raping him, or by using other techniques. For example, the married male protagonist might meet another woman who, over the course of the game, seduces him, and takes him away from his wife.

2. The protagonist's significant other almost always finds out about the situation and suffers from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness arisen from an inability to change anything. The one stealing the protagonist and/or the protagonist might rub it in by humiliating the losing SO in private or in public.

3. The trait does not apply if the protagonist having sex with someone else does not experience naughty feelings related to the taboo of cheating, and possibly destroying his established relationship. In other words, the pre-existing ties between the protagonist and their SO are important to the reverse netorare fetish.

4. The act of stealing must happen while the protagonist is in a current relationship. Scenes of protagonist's past relationships do not count as Reverse Netorare.

The game is usually portrayed from the perspective of protagonist, who is seduced into abandoning his significant other, however, for story purposes the game might switch between multiple POVs and also portray the events from the perspective of the loser SO.

 

[Gicoo]

NTR is an abbreviation the Japanese word "netorare" which means cuckholding. However as a porn tag it meaning has grown and altered a bit, and everyone has developed their own definition, from the very restrictive to the overly broad.

Personally I think the VNDB has the best definition:


The VNDB also further breaks it down in the several NTR types:

Decent definitions, but I still find many works labeled as ntr (often in the title, tags or description, so the author and publisher greenlit it) that don't follow all descriptions. E.g. works in which the girl is stolen and seduced and feels guilty but also thrilled about her clueless partner, but the partner doesn't know. Often ends with them together happy while she secretly reads the bulls text messages, has cum leeked from her or whatever.
There are also many works in which the loser isn't in a relationship with the girl, but plans to and there are hints that the girl would agree to it. However, the bull steps in and step by step the girl is taken and the loser has the exact same response found in the other ntr works.

So not even VNDB has it full right.