diebesgrab

Active Member
Feb 25, 2019
600
1,205
294
When even the writer of guides for the game talks about savescumming as a part of how they play the game this is an issue.
I mean, I'm not saying it isn't an issue, but using me as an example probably isn't the best support for that statement: I'm incredibly impatient, and the entire reason I was able to write those guides is that I played the game enough times in a short enough period that a lot of the information I needed to write them stuck, and to make me want to make those playthroughs more efficient—and savescumming is pretty much the only way I'd have had the patience to do all that, even with far fewer random events.

Personally, I think the main thing that needs to happen in terms of making the game, perhaps if not fun, at least easier to get to the good parts, is to reduce—though not necessarily eliminate—the amount of randomness. I think that could actually pretty easily be done by tweaking the existing system. Just as examples of ideas:

  • Take the ruler events that are now tied to specific castle locations out of the pool of random events to reduce the number of events available;
  • Limit more events to more specific date ranges (not sex scenes or important events that gate further content)—this limits the mutability of a playthrough a bit, but again, reduces the number of available random events to pull from at any given time.
  • Make more events tied to locations, especially the ones that are just there for lore-building. Make them available at different dates so players interested in the lore at least have more reason to go around checking every location every week, and again, this reduces the number of available random scenes.
  • Make more events the result of player choice instead of simply randomly popping. You don't have to implement a full blown relationship stat for every NPC, but maybe certain choices made during events tied to certain NPCs open up more lore-building events tied to that NPC, instead of them just randomly occurring at the end of a week—as you experience more events connected to Cla-Min's thread of events, maybe you open up the Cla-Min ruler events (like the counterfeit gold one). This one's admittedly more difficult as it involves restructuring trigger paths for events, though.
  • Restructure Alexia's job system somewhat so the player has a bit more control over what job events he sees. There's clearly a limit to how far this can be taken without it being a major pain in the ass for the devs, but I feel like some means of reducing randomness is going to have to be worked into the job events, or else the increasing pool of is going to reduce the odds of getting a specific one to maddening levels. It's already gotten pretty annoying just savescumming for them in the current version (though to be fair, I have monumentally bad luck with RNG).
The skill system needs a lot of work, because in the current build that's where the majority of content that can become inaccessible due to pure RNG is, but a lot of work reportedly has gone into it and the new version is just around the corner.
 

Retromancer

Member
Aug 14, 2018
408
602
256
I think the rub is that your comments were phrased as engine choice when what you're commenting on is design choice.
You have a point and I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way. I guess my deeper question is if game engine limits design choice, because I feel it does - maybe I'm wrong about this. Also, I'm no expert in tabletop games but a better translation of that to me on a computer would be NWN, and I hope we can agree that there are other game engines that support that type of feeling better than Ren'py
 
  • Like
Reactions: Semantics

Semantics

Member
Apr 28, 2017
296
383
298
You have a point and I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way. I guess my deeper question is if game engine limits design choice, because I feel it does - maybe I'm wrong about this. Also, I'm no expert in tabletop games but a better translation of that to me on a computer would be NWN, and I hope we can agree that there are other game engines that support that type of feeling better than Ren'py
Engine can definitely limit design, but it also works the other way around. When a dev has a design in mind, they will (Presumably) try to pick the engine that works best for that design. (Programming language can muck that up some. If you only know Python and plan to be doing the programming yourself, the decision is made for you unless you plan to pick up a new language as you go.)

But this argument (Along with comparing it to NWN to say there are better engines for it, though amusingly NWN is of course based off a tabletop RPG) assumes that the game as it exists currently isn't what the devs intended, and switching the engine out would make it so. Plus scenes being RNG-triggered or purely triggered by progression is very much something that I'm pretty sure every game engine out there can do. There's RNG involved in RAGS, RPG Maker, and Unity games I can think of, and there are games where scenes progress one to the next relying or just rely on variables and no RNG for each of those engines too.

Either way, I just hope the upcoming stat/skill revamp includes a UI change so that you can actually see your previously distributed points and bonuses from feats (Assuming feats are kept) when leveling up. That honestly bugs me more than the size of the skill list.
 

Oriandu

Engaged Member
Sep 1, 2017
3,329
6,075
700
I see a lot on these forums about RPGMaker games being inferior to Ren'py, but I think this is the reverse. The game being in Ren'py is a complicated mess, with certain scenes only being seen if you cheat because you missed a certain trigger. If it was made in RPGMaker you could have clear questlines with step-by-step options taken. All the things like Alexis job events, the way stats and equipment are handled, the open-world aspect of it, and the sheer complication of the game are better handled by an engine that is more suited to RPGs than VNs. Also, with having Corruption, Affection and other stat points matter so much to the dialogue content and even scene content, being able to open a menu and seeing the characters stats matters a lot
Seeds of Chaos is a complicated mess because it suffers from bad game design, not because of Renpy. It'd be a mess no matter what engine it uses.
 

T51bwinterized

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Oct 17, 2017
1,457
3,498
464
Simple note here.

- We're largely on board with moving critical NPC events that set relationships out of the random event pools and into specific and easily triggered conditions. We're working how to effectively do that.
- Skill system is nearly done with it's rework. It's designed to be simpler, have less stats to track, and less random.
- Fey plotline rework is partially on moving away from random triggers to specific actionable start points.
- We're just cleaning out a whole bunch of unused or pointless mechanics that don't help anything.
 

Rein

Active Member
Game Developer
May 8, 2017
840
3,198
447
Want more corruption for either Alexia or Rowan before a certain event triggers? Play again. Want to run into the Fey? Walk into a forest and see if it happens, it may or may not. We can agree to disagree but the gameplay is is so random, it drives me crazy.

In a game like this, give me specific things I can do to corrupt Delane in the Orc camp, for example, rather than wait for random chance to just even get the chance to make it happen. It's just frustrating design with so much good content behind it.
*I know*
this game is just going to fall under it's own weight with people just constantly asking for game files without bothering to play the game because it is too random,
The people who ask for game files are usually not the same as the people for are recognizing dedication, progress and hard work on a incredibly ambitious project for an extended period of time, and are actually funding this erotic endeavour. Funny how that works.

We'll be fine.
The game could be changed to cut out a large chunk of the RNG in numerous ways (And I do wonder if more events someday will be. The Fey storyline in particular seems like it'd be pretty large, so having the intros all start from exploring certain tile types might seem a bit odd once the rest of it starts getting put in.)
*I know*

For everyone who provides constructive criticism, I appriciate it, though we recognize most of it already. Sadly changing things this far into development is time consuming, and in certain cases you have to compromise and acknowledge the end product will be imperfect. The game must be finished at some point. There's no point chasing perfection.

For everyone who thinks our past design mistakes somehow mean we're shitty developers, well, to you, I dedicate this song:

 
Last edited:

Back

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
1,701
6,538
671
Hey Rein or T51bwinterized, could you look into a possible (softlock) bug?

Issue: If Rowan doesn't have a weapon and has no means to acquire one, and also had failed rolls trying to approach the different factions during Orcaid, then is it even possible to progress the Orcaid arc at all?

Quick and Dirty Fix: Even a simple placeholder button with Cla-Min that says "Get an axe" or "Get a weapon" that places a weapon in Rowan's inventory to later surrender it would suffice for a solution until the inventory overhaul is completed.

Thanks. Stay rad; be safe.
 

Rein

Active Member
Game Developer
May 8, 2017
840
3,198
447
Issue: If Rowan doesn't have a weapon and has no means to acquire one, and also had failed rolls trying to approach the different factions during Orcaid, then is it even possible to progress the Orcaid arc at all?
The entire Orciad progression will be reviewed in phase 2 of the Skill rework. For the time being, I asked LA to remove the diplomacy check.
 

Tagliatele

New Member
Oct 14, 2017
10
36
106
I'm sure i missed something but I cant find where can I buy item from goblin caravan ?
I'm at week 12 and when I go to the caravan screen there is no button or menu to buy stuff.
 

Arachnox

Member
Aug 3, 2018
238
87
152
This could just be random chance. There was also (Not sure if it's been fixed, it was known before the last release but isn't mentioned in the changelog, though bugfixes often aren't) a bug that prevented Liurial's intro event from playing, though later events could still play. If she never appeared at all, I imagine it's just RNG that she didn't in yours rather than the bug, but I can't remember if there are any requirements for her intro in terms of week or anything.



I think the rub is that your comments were phrased as engine choice when what you're commenting on is design choice. The difference in question between this game (Events that proc in large part via RNG) and TLS (Events that proc entirely based off variables determined by your choices) is full stop because the devs designed each of their games that way and has nothing to do with engine.

The game could be changed to cut out a large chunk of the RNG in numerous ways (And I do wonder if more events someday will be. The Fey storyline in particular seems like it'd be pretty large, so having the intros all start from exploring certain tile types might seem a bit odd once the rest of it starts getting put in.) Changing the engine to RPG Maker wouldn't guarantee that, and would involve a lot, lot more work to re-design stuff.

Plus while this is an RPG, it isn't an RPG in the way of RPG Maker games. It's an RPG in the way of a tabletop game, with skill rolls. Just because RPG maker makes old JRPG style games and this is an RPG doesn't mean they're perfect for each other.
Oh no! The dreaded RNG! Absolutely hate that feature! Made me rage so hard during the initial months of Pathfinder: Kingmaker's release!
Wish they had a static script option for this game. Anyways, thanks for the info!!
 

Nym85

Active Member
Dec 15, 2018
703
873
297
that's why im putting this game on hold till its completed.
So, for several years at best?

I'll be frank, while I appeciate ambition, I don't see this project as something that will be completed. It's story is not open ended for them to be able to close it early if need be (like Corruption of Champions, which was only really abandoned in the interest of making a better version at a better engine) and the team while fairly productive still seems to have an issue with project management. It's sad really because they are telling a very good story which imo is much better than many non-erotic RPGs out there. Plus the characters are hot.
 

Nym85

Active Member
Dec 15, 2018
703
873
297
I really like the art and storytelling but this movement/exploration system with the hexagons and letters is very annoying.
I think the most important thing for new players that the game should tell them loud and clear is that early on, you best stick to the road. The moment you get out of the road the movement cost increases so much and the most important events you need are all on the road early on; three villages, a mine and two abbeys can be found in just the first three days journeying on either side of the road. Once you learn that you will have the income and the increased research you need to get everything started. If you go exploring early on you manage nothing at all since your days will end way too fast and with no objectives (than maybe a mine you don't really need yet or a drider nest you definitely do not need yet).
 
3.90 star(s) 190 Votes