Sexual Game Mechanics: Why and How

[nulnil]

The advice you seem to be giving, is "you're bad writers, so don't write, design games instead!" Having browsed a lot of games on this site, I am coming to the conclusion that this would be a terrible advice. You see, you are absolutely right, most games have poorly written stories. But they are even worse as games. My observation is that there is a small but not insignificant number of talented visual artists, a very limited number of good writers, and almost complete absence of even somewhat competent game designers.

Well at that point you might just want to skip the gameplay part completely and write a VN. There's nothing inherently wrong with a VN, it's just not really a game.

From a consumer perspective, it's better that we have a few decent narrative-focused games rather than none because these rare capable writers wasted their time trying and failing to create good gameplay.

Those writers are just biting off more than they can chew.

Then you should go and play them, starting with the Last Sovereign. The argument here is that porn is an integral part of the narrative. Yeah, it's not really an integral part of the gameplay (it's a lowly JRPG). Your question translates to "would you ever have bothered playing this narrative-heavy game knowing that the integral part of its narrative is gone for the sake of my argument?" Well, duh, of course not! Would you have bothered playing a game knowing that its key mechanics are deactivated?

He was implying that the porn not being tied to the gameplay was fine, not anything about the narrative. Typically these games are just a generic RPGM or something similar, and they would simply flop without any porn (adjusting for mainstream platforms they'd be on as well).

First, care to suggest a porn comic or porn movie where writing is on the level of Breaking Bad? It would seem awfully fallacious of you to hold porn narratives to that standard in one part of your argument and then failing to uphold that standard in the other.

I never said that there's porn comics that are on the level of Breaking Bad. I said that the narratives would have to be very high quality since narratives have to work alot harder to be fun than a game does.

And the answer to your question is dopamine. Achieving goals in games, no matter how not-skill-based they are, results in dopamine hits in a way that turning a comic page absolutely does not.

So you're telling me just walking forward in a game gives you dopamine? Your current goal may to walk closer towards an enemy, so it's a goal as any other. There's a whole aspect of challenge and struggle to a goal that gives you dopamine. If a game literallytook no skill, you would get bored very quickly.

It's better to have some gameplay than none, even if it's not tied to the porn.

I'd much rather read a VN without shallow, half-assed gameplay mechanics than one with. You don't just have half a car, because a car doesn't work with half of it missing.

 

[nulnil]

I understand your argument. I just disagree. I mean if you have a fun game where you go off adventuring, then come back to town and go to the brothel, pay some gold for sex and then have sex. It doesn't make the sex dead weight and it is not tied to any game mechanic.

But why have the brothel at all? You'd have a larger demographic of possible players and mainstream sites would be more accepting of the game without the sex scenes/content. Adult content has it's costs, so it better pay them back.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

An average game is MOSTLY about gameplay, not story or art. That means porn that doesn't interact with gameplay elements in any way is going to have much less impact than porn that does.

But porn games aren't average games. The argument rests on the assumption that an average game and average porn game will land in the same spot. That's not true, porn is heavily biased towards being art-heavy, or narrative-heavy, or both.

Again you're not wrong. Interaction with more game elements makes porn more impactful. BUT.

But the weights are not the same. Good synergy between porn and art and narrative takes priority over gamification (even if done right), and gamification done wrong is downright detrimental. Gamification is more risk, more effort, less reward.

I never said that there's porn comics that are on the level of Breaking Bad. I said that the narratives would have to be very high quality since narratives have to work alot harder to be fun than a game does.

No? That's just not so, they are just as bad as games. A writer doesn't magically become more skilled just because they are creating for one medium rather than other. It comes down to the talent pool; we have 10 good writers, they will create either 10 VNs or 10 comics. I'd rather have 10 VNs than 10 comics, because there is at least some minimal interactivity there.

So you're telling me just walking forward in a game gives you dopamine? There's a whole aspect of challenge and struggle to a goal that gives you dopamine. If a game literallytook no skill, you would get bored very quickly.

Tell that to millions of smartphone addicts lol. Checking social network notifications takes no skill; you take smartphone out of your pocket, look at it, see a notification or not. But the dopamine hits are still coming; hence the addiction.

Obviously, it's possible to make the in-game grind so insipid that this pattern breaks down. But it takes some really heavy-handed design choices, deviating from the rundown path of, say, stock JRPG.

But why have the brothel at all? You'd have a larger demographic of possible players and mainstream sites would be more accepting of the game without the sex scenes/content. Adult content has it's costs, so it better pay them back.

Worldbuilding is one reason. There are prostitutes in GTA, and it would be downright weird if a crime-riddled city didn't have them. So, there they are, and you can buy their services.

Or just simple titillation. honestly, that's the main reason. Smut is just a more distilled version of that.

I'd much rather read a VN without shallow, half-assed gameplay mechanics than one with. You don't just have half a car, because a car doesn't work with half of it missing.

Ah, so we're in agreement, then.

But don't you think your other messages have their overall tone misplaced then? Rather than asking "why does this game have porn here?" shouldn't you be asking "why this bad game mechanic exists?"

 

[Nutluck]

But why have the brothel at all? You'd have a larger demographic of possible players and mainstream sites would be more accepting of the game without the sex scenes/content. Adult content has it's costs, so it better pay them back.

Marsh sorta answered this above, but I will also add this. Most of us that work on games including myself are not talented enough to make really great games, same things is true of most people that write fanfic. The majority of them just lack the talent to be a professional writer. But that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of people that still don't enjoy that work, understanding the limits of those working or writing on this stuff.

Now GL is 100% free always has been always will be, so there is no real cost. People play it if they like it and don't if they don't enjoy it. I write for it, because it is a hobby. It gives me a creative outlet that I enjoy doing. Personally I like world building, making interesting NPC's and I like porn. So I work on a game that does all three.

Which means if I made the game I mentioned above. I would do it, because it makes the world feel more real and I enjoy writing that way. For me my desire to work on these games came from when I use to be a DM and run a lot of DnD games. I use to make very deep and immersive worlds including with sex. Granted I didn't get that graphic with the sex back then, but adult games lets me world build, create NPC's and add graphic sex. So for me it is a win win win.

 

[nulnil]

But porn games aren't average games. The argument rests on the assumption that an average game and average porn game will land in the same spot. That's not true, porn is heavily biased towards being art-heavy, or narrative-heavy, or both.

The arguement rests on the assumption someone wants to make a real game, not a VN wearing the skin of another genre.

But the weights are not the same. Good synergy between porn and art and narrative takes priority over gamification (even if done right), and gamification done wrong is downright detrimental. Gamification is more risk, more effort, less reward.

That's what some people want to see in porn games, gamification. Not everyone likes VN's.

No? That's just not so, they are just as bad as games. A writer doesn't magically become more skilled just because they are creating for one medium rather than other. It comes down to the talent pool; we have 10 good writers, they will create either 10 VNs or 10 comics. I'd rather have 10 VNs than 10 comics, because there is at least some minimal interactivity there.

I never said anything about a writer's skill level? You know how you can replay a videogame many times and still have alot of fun? If you rewatched a movie 3 or more times over it'd get boring quickly, even if it was really good.

Obviously, it's possible to make the in-game grind so insipid that this pattern breaks down. But it takes some really heavy-handed design choices, deviating from the rundown path of, say, stock JRPG.

That is the case of most games, or at least the ones I can say there's a fair bit (or more) grind in them.

Worldbuilding is one reason. There are prostitutes in GTA, and it would be downright weird if a crime-riddled city didn't have them. So, there they are, and you can buy their services.

Or just simple titillation. honestly, that's the main reason. Smut is just a more distilled version of that.

You could have the prostitutes but also make it so the player can't hire them. Keeps the worldbuilding and the game SFW. No player is going to go "My immersion is ruined, I couldn't fuck hookers!".

But don't you think your other messages have their overall tone misplaced then? Rather than asking "why does this game have porn here?" shouldn't you be asking "why this bad game mechanic exists?"

If a game just has bad game mechanics, it's just a "skill issue" on the developer's part. It's up to a developer to design their game well, like an artist with their art. Anyways, there doesn't seem to be any real information reguarding designing sexual game mechanics, so any developer trying to read up on it would be outta luck.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

The arguement rests on the assumption someone wants to make a real game, not a VN wearing the skin of another genre.

What they want is not very relevant. What they can is.

I never said anything about a writer's skill level?

Yes, but you said

I said that the narratives would have to be very high quality since narratives have to work alot harder to be fun than a game does.

(emphasis mine) And:

If you want to fap to a story, I suggest reading an adult web-comic.

A narrative for a comic doesn't magically become better because the genre needs it to be good. It's capped by the talent of the creator. So for the person you initially replied to, the choice was: fap to a comic, or fap to a game that hands out sex scenes as a reward for progression, but not as gamified scenes. Since the quality of narrative would be equal (see above), the choice of a game is very logical. They get some gameplay (read: dopamine) as a bonus to their equally good story. What's not to like, exactly?

You know how you can replay a videogame many times and still have alot of fun? If you rewatched a movie 3 or more times over it'd get boring quickly, even if it was really good.

I absolutely can re-read some favourite books and enjoy them multiple times. Since VNs (or games with several paths) are fundamentally narratives that add variety based on choices, I don't understand this argument. That's what makes them more replayable.

You could have the prostitutes but also make it so the player can't hire them. Keeps the worldbuilding and the game SW. No player is going to go "My immersion is ruined, I couldn't fuck hookers!".

That doesn't make sense if you are creating an open-world game for mature audiences in the first place. Some games are inevitably rated 18+ for their depictions of violence and what else they have as their central theme. Adding some sexually explicit elements where they make sense after that is just natural. Hence, hookers.

 

[nulnil]

A narrative for a comic doesn't magically become better because the genre needs it to be good. It's capped by the talent of the creator. So for the person you initially replied to, the choice was: fap to a comic, or fap to a game that hands out sex scenes as a reward for progression, but not as gamified scenes. Since the quality of narrative would be equal (see above), the choice of a game is very logical. They get some gameplay (read: dopamine) as a bonus to their equally good story. What's not to like, exactly?

The gameplay can be detrimental if you do it wrong enough, and that is often the case with these VN developers. Again, half of a car isn't worth half the price of a car, because it's useless without the other half. Besides that, the game mechanics often serve solely as obstacles in a VN instead of something meant to be enjoyed because the writer needs to extend the playtime or distract you from the terrible writing.

I absolutely can re-read some favourite books and enjoy them multiple times. Since VNs (or games with several paths) are fundamentally narratives that add variety based on choices, I don't understand this argument. That's what makes them more replayable.

I was talking about re-watching/re-reading them again the day after. Also, games with several paths/VN's aren't any less replayable than games that are linear (ask any ULTRAKILL fan). They just usually coerce you to play the game again to see all the endings and such because option A locks out content B.

That doesn't make sense if you are creating an open-world game for mature audiences in the first place. Some games are inevitably rated 18+ for their depictions of violence and what else they have as their central theme. Adding some sexually explicit elements where they make sense after that is just natural. Hence, hookers.

About the rating, have you heard of the Adults Only Rating? According to Wikipedia, only 3 games have managed to be so violent that they get an AO rating off violence alone. Pretty much, you have to make a game about absolutely brutal, unrestrained violence to get 18+'d (as opposed to 17+, which is a huge difference) from it just being violent.

So no, there isn't a reason to follow through with graphic sex with hookers.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

The gameplay can be detrimental if you do it wrong enough, and that is often the case with these VN developers. Again, half of a car isn't worth half the price of a car, because it's useless without the other half. Besides that, the game mechanics often serve solely as obstacles in a VN instead of something meant to be enjoyed because the writer needs to extend the playtime or distract you from the terrible writing.

If writing was terrible in a narrative-heavy game... why are we talking about it? It's a moot point, game mechanics can't change anything here. This VN-like game would be terrible with or without extra gamification, its writing has already spelled its death sentence (he he he).

I was talking about re-watching/re-reading them again the day after.

Same. It's most noticeable with music. Some people really do like one, or just a handful of track on repeat, despite music being static, repeatable content. Yes, eventually the enjoyment does wear out, but it takes dozens, hundreds of loops. You can enjoy static content multiple times on repeat, like a good track, or book/movie scene.

They just usually coerce you to play the game again to see all the endings and such because option A locks out content B.

That's a really weird choice of word for offering optional additional content. They don't force you to unlock other endings. Perhaps you meant entice. If anything, I can say it's skill-based games that coerce you to git gud on the threat of witholding any or even all content. Can't progress beyond certain point (low skill)? No content for you. It's a real issue, Corrupted Saviors suffers from this in particular, for example. Story mode, or very easy difficulty modes exist exactly as a crutch to mitigate that, the same way galleries exist in porn games as a crutch.

About the rating, have you heard of the Adults Only Rating?

Have you heard of other countries existing? Just because only three games are restricted to adults in one system, means little. Other countries with big markets are harsher on the violence and drug depictions (and sometimes lighter on nudity), devs have to consider this as well.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Same. It's most noticeable with music. Some people really do like one, or just a handful of track on repeat, despite music being static, repeatable content. Yes, eventually the enjoyment does wear out, but it takes dozens, hundreds of loops. You can enjoy static content multiple times on repeat, like a good track, or book/movie scene.

A big part of the electro music even rely on this, basing each track on a heavily pattern repetition.
This even have a name (that I don't remember right now) in psychology. The reason why we enjoy some song more than other come from the enjoyment we get while waiting for "this part that we really like". And obviously, the more often "this part" appear in the song, the more we enjoy it.
Applied to games, it lead to the whole "mobile games" scene ; small game mechanism patterns that condition our brain in an endless loop repetitive pattern that can easily turn as addictive. Here again, this have a name (that I'll not even try to remember on the 1st January) in psychology.

Story mode, or very easy difficulty modes exist exactly as a crutch to mitigate that, the same way galleries exist in porn games as a crutch.

It remind me about Deus Ex - Human Revolution, among others, that describe its "easy mode" as being designed for people who want to pass time enjoying a story, more than they want to pass it being challenged. If it's legit for an AAA game franchise, it's obviously even more for a porn/adult game that, by nature, is way more focused on personal enjoyment.
As I already said, it's way more difficult to be aroused if you've to concentrate in order to beat the game, and even more if your struggle against game mechanisms that are effectively challenging. This doesn't mean that such games can't be enjoyable, but they'll offer an enjoyment that isn't the one expected for this genre of games. It would be like a movie so badly made that you pass your time laughing at it ; you had a good time, but not for the reasons expected by the persons who made it.

Have you heard of other countries existing? Just because only three games are restricted to adults in one system, means little. Other countries with big markets are harsher on the violence and drug depictions (and sometimes lighter on nudity), devs have to consider this as well.

Germany is probably the best example of this. Due to their categorization of games, they have way more than three games rated +18.
While being used worldwide, ESRB is a North American rating, and therefore it apply to North American Law, culture and public expectations. It's an indication that can be useful for buyers whatever their country, because they learned what to expect from the game depending of its ESRB rating, but at no time did it overpass local Law, culture and public expectations.
Then, like you said, in order to sell, game creators have to take count of those difference and make a game that would target the biggest audience. This even it if mean softening some parts of their game. What, once again, apply even more for porn/adult games, that should be at least a bit arousing, whatever can arouse the players. Reason why there's way more games covering "basic fetishes", while those targeting more extreme fetishes tend to focus on them, because they will generally be chosen for this particularity.
And yes, it also apply to game mechanisms. Either there's none, or light ones, because it will appeal to the majority, or the whole game rely on those game mechanisms more than on the lewd content, because the said game mechanism(s) is what will make a player choose this game.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

This even have a name (that I don't remember right now) in psychology. The reason why we enjoy some song more than other come from the enjoyment we get while waiting for "this part that we really like". And obviously, the more often "this part" appear in the song, the more we enjoy it.

You're probably thinking frisson, and it's interesting in this context because apparently there's research suggesting frisson is a brain's system of reward (yeah, it's pleasurable), and research suggesting it's caused by a sort of surprise, an unusual combination or rapid shift of emotions caused by a musical piece. Which is why the effect of a particular piece does wear off eventually. New neural pathways eventually grow strong enough so brain is no longer surprised, and perhaps which is why musical tastes often change and mature. It's a reward for musical/emotional learning, the tangible a-ha! moment.

The takeaway for this discussion is that apparently you can be surprised (sort of) by the same content multiple (but not infinite) times.

Germany is probably the best example of this.

I had Australia in mind first when writing this, and yeah, Germany second.

 

[nulnil]

If writing was terrible in a narrative-heavy game... why are we talking about it? It's a moot point, game mechanics can't change anything here. This VN-like game would be terrible with or without extra gamification, its writing has already spelled its death sentence (he he he).

I say "terrible writing" because most VN's, even the highly rated ones, are around a 4/10 in terms of narrative.

Same. It's most noticeable with music. Some people really do like one, or just a handful of track on repeat, despite music being static, repeatable content. Yes, eventually the enjoyment does wear out, but it takes dozens, hundreds of loops. You can enjoy static content multiple times on repeat, like a good track, or book/movie scene.

Well maybe it's just me who doesn't like watching movies tons of times over.

That's a really weird choice of word for offering optional additional content. They don't force you to unlock other endings. Perhaps you meant entice.

Well yeah, you aren't forced to play the game in the first place. But to really feel that you've completed a game, or at least seen everything it has, you'd have to get all endings. Otherwise, you've only experienced a part of the game.

If anything, I can say it's skill-based games that coerce you to git gud on the threat of witholding any or even all content. Can't progress beyond certain point (low skill)? No content for you. It's a real issue, Corrupted Saviors suffers from this in particular, for example. Story mode, or very easy difficulty modes exist exactly as a crutch to mitigate that, the same way galleries exist in porn games as a crutch.

The thing is that not every game is going to be able to be beaten by everyone. Do we need auto-modes in games so that even the cartoonishly bad players can win? Barrier of entry has to be somewhere.

Also, this argument you have here also rests on the assumption the player never actually grows in skill. Who's playing this game, a robot?

Have you heard of other countries existing? Just because only three games are restricted to adults in one system, means little. Other countries with big markets are harsher on the violence and drug depictions (and sometimes lighter on nudity), devs have to consider this as well.

What I was saying is that no sane parent (in america) is going to get an AO game for their kid no matter their age, but they may be a little looser with M17 games.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Well yeah, you aren't forced to play the game in the first place. But to really feel that you've completed a game, or at least seen everything it has, you'd have to get all endings. Otherwise, you've only experienced a part of the game.

And that's not a problem.

Sometimes I DON'T want to see all the content, because the content telegraphs me it's not for my taste. If I don't like some optional companion in an RPG, then they are never going to be in my party. So I do not experience their quests and any quests attached to them. I'm absolutely fine with that. Being a completionist is a self-inflicted torture, don't blame this on the devs.

I don't need all the endings. I only want the endings that I enjoy along with paths to them. If the game has several, great, I can enjoy several variations of the narrative. If there's only one True Path for me, that also fine.

The thing is that not every game is going to be able to be beaten by everyone. Do we need auto-modes in games so that even the cartoonishly bad players can win?

Yes?

Why would the answer be no?

• As a game dev that sounds absurd: I don't want some of my players to be able to finish the game! I want to take their money, make them bash their heads against the wall I built and walk away, deeply unsatisfied (and hope they don't refund & review bomb).
• As a unskilled player that sounds absurd: I want to purchase a game that does not let me see its content! Yohooo! I love wasting my time and money to experience nothing but frustration!
• As a skilled gatekeeper that does make some sense: I want to be in an exclusive club of skill! Gatekeeping the plebs feels wonderful!

Do you really want to gatekeep? Without false modesty, as a skilled player myself, I say fuck these jerks, I'm with the "unskilled" crowd on this one.

Barrier of entry has to be somewhere.

Has it really? There's already a barrier when purchasing/pirating the game. There's already a barrier when playing a game written in English, when English isn't your native language (and FYI, that's the majority of people on the planet). That is enough.

You have to understand that absolute skill checks in single player games are a troubled legacy of the Arcade. The devs had a direct financial incentive to make games hard, to milk your wallet, one quarter at a time. This mechanic inherently DOES NOT have the players best interests in mind.

It is a bad mechanic, and difficulty levels are a crutch invented to contain it. Unfortunately it's hard to get rid of, both culturally and technically. A lot of game devs today grew up on arcade games or games that blindly followed their design. It's also harder to make an adaptive difficulty curve. The model of static skill checks is simple and culturally ingrained, but it is wrong.

An ideal single player game would have only one skill level: an adaptive one. At that skill level it would be challenging both for the dumbest mouthbreather alive and for the best e-sports players in the world alike.

Even in multiplayer games, where skill checks are naturally erected by players for their peers, they sometimes become a problem, specifically when the barrier of entry rises unexpectedly and dramatically a few years after the initial release.

What I was saying is that no sane parent (in america) is going to get an AO game for their kid no matter their age, but they may be a little looser with M17 games.

FWIW GTA is one of those M-rated games, the entire series. So is Saints Row, Witcher, and many others. So when adding interactive prostitutes the designer's thought process was "We'll get M17 rating in the US anyway because of swearing, violence, and drugs. We can add prostitutes and sex scenes. As long as we don't go overboard with the visuals, we won't get AO. We want to add prostitutes, and we can. So let's do it."

 

[desmosome]

And that's not a problem.

Sometimes I DON'T want to see all the content, because the content telegraphs me it's not for my taste. If I don't like some optional companion in an RPG, then they are never going to be in my party. So I do not experience their quests and any quests attached to them. I'm absolutely fine with that. Being a completionist is a self-inflicted torture, don't blame this on the devs.

I don't need all the endings. I only want the endings that I enjoy along with paths to them. If the game has several, great, I can enjoy several variations of the narrative. If there's only one True Path for me, that also fine.

Yes?

Why would the answer be no?

• As a game dev that sounds absurd: I don't want some of my players to be able to finish the game! I want to take their money, make them bash their heads against the wall I built and walk away, deeply unsatisfied (and hope they don't refund & review bomb).
• As a unskilled player that sounds absurd: I want to purchase a game that does not let me see its content! Yohooo! I love wasting my time and money to experience nothing but frustration!
• As a skilled gatekeeper that does make some sense: I want to be in an exclusive club of skill! Gatekeeping the plebs feels wonderful!

Do you really want to gatekeep? Without false modesty, as a skilled player myself, I say fuck these jerks, I'm with the "unskilled" crowd on this one.

Has it really? There's already a barrier when purchasing/pirating the game. There's already a barrier when playing a game written in English, when English isn't your native language (and FYI, that's the majority of people on the planet). That is enough.

You have to understand that absolute skill checks in single player games are a troubled legacy of the Arcade. The devs had a direct financial incentive to make games hard, to milk your wallet, one quarter at a time. This mechanic inherently DOES NOT have the players best interests in mind.

It is a bad mechanic, and difficulty levels are a crutch invented to contain it. Unfortunately it's hard to get rid of, both culturally and technically. A lot of game devs today grew up on arcade games or games that blindly followed their design. It's also harder to make an adaptive difficulty curve. The model of static skill checks is simple and culturally ingrained, but it is wrong.

An ideal single player game would have only one skill level: an adaptive one. At that skill level it would be challenging both for the dumbest mouthbreather alive and for the best e-sports players in the world alike.

Even in multiplayer games, where skill checks are naturally erected by players for their peers, they sometimes become a problem, specifically when the barrier of entry rises unexpectedly and dramatically a few years after the initial release.

FWIW GTA is one of those M-rated games, the entire series. So is Saints Row, Witcher, and many others. So when adding interactive prostitutes the designer's thought process was "We'll get M17 rating in the US anyway because of swearing, violence, and drugs. We can add prostitutes and sex scenes. As long as we don't go overboard with the visuals, we won't get AO. We want to add prostitutes, and we can. So let's do it."

No need to generalize. Skill based games with very high difficulty are not inherently badly designed. Getting high winrates in roguelikes is very rewarding. And there are also players playing thousands of runs without even winning once that still have fun.

Where OP's argument falls apart is in his arrogant assertion that his opinion is objectively the correct one. His skill based fapping or whatever can exist, and it will appeal to many, but it's just one of many ways to implement the porn. It can even be an active deterrent for players that don't want to fap to game mechanics.

I don't know why you continue to debate with him because it's abundantly clear from the very first post that it will never get anywhere. People like him are so self absorbed that they will never consider alternate opinions or reflect on the veracity of their own claims.

 

[nulnil]

Yes?

Why would the answer be no?

• As a game dev that sounds absurd: I don't want some of my players to be able to finish the game! I want to take their money, make them bash their heads against the wall I built and walk away, deeply unsatisfied (and hope they don't refund & review bomb).
• As a unskilled player that sounds absurd: I want to purchase a game that does not let me see its content! Yohooo! I love wasting my time and money to experience nothing but frustration!
• As a skilled gatekeeper that does make some sense: I want to be in an exclusive club of skill! Gatekeeping the plebs feels wonderful!

Do you really want to gatekeep? Without false modesty, as a skilled player myself, I say fuck these jerks, I'm with the "unskilled" crowd on this one.

So I take it you prefer very easy games with little to no struggle or challenge?

I'm not advocating for taking away easy mode or forcing players to play 1-HP difficulty. If you want an easier experience, you can usually play a game's easy mode. Now some games don't have that, which I agree is a flaw on the developers part. However, some games that do have easy difficulties aren't meant to be easy games, like ULTRAKILL. That is just how the game is designed.

Has it really? There's already a barrier when purchasing/pirating the game. There's already a barrier when playing a game written in English, when English isn't your native language (and FYI, that's the majority of people on the planet). That is enough.

You have to understand that absolute skill checks in single player games are a troubled legacy of the Arcade. The devs had a direct financial incentive to make games hard, to milk your wallet, one quarter at a time. This mechanic inherently DOES NOT have the players best interests in mind.

It is a bad mechanic, and difficulty levels are a crutch invented to contain it. Unfortunately it's hard to get rid of, both culturally and technically. A lot of game devs today grew up on arcade games or games that blindly followed their design. It's also harder to make an adaptive difficulty curve. The model of static skill checks is simple and culturally ingrained, but it is wrong.

An ideal single player game would have only one skill level: an adaptive one. At that skill level it would be challenging both for the dumbest mouthbreather alive and for the best e-sports players in the world alike.

Alright, instead of repeating myself here, I'll suggest a reason as to why games might dare to have difficulty.

Because part of the fun is getting better at the game.

Yes I know, improvement. Daring. It's almost like it gives dopamine to see oneself improve at something, and how far they've come.

FWIW GTA is one of those M-rated games, the entire series. So is Saints Row, Witcher, and many others. So when adding interactive prostitutes the designer's thought process was "We'll get M17 rating in the US anyway because of swearing, violence, and drugs. We can add prostitutes and sex scenes. As long as we don't go overboard with the visuals, we won't get AO. We want to add prostitutes, and we can. So let's do it."

Oh, so not like the graphic sex Nutluck was (probably) talking about?

 

[nulnil]

Where OP's argument falls apart is in his arrogant assertion that his opinion is objectively the correct one. His skill based fapping or whatever can exist, and it will appeal to many, but it's just one of many ways to implement the porn. It can even be an active deterrent for players that don't want to fap to game mechanics.

You're the one making it about VN's, writing, and narrative. I never said that you can't ever have a narrative, or you can't have sexual content in a narrative.

Anyways, with your whole anti-gameplay stance on sexual content, it's like saying you can't have combat be part of the gameplay because you can't write each fight accordingly.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Formerly titled "Presentation and You! An informational guide."

Spoiler: Edit Log

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Dead Weight
Let's say you are developing a (non-novel) porn game, following the average porn game's formula. However, halfway in development an issue relating to the porn arises, and that is "Why must there be porn?". This might seem like a dumb question, but think about it. If a game developer just added whatever for the sake of having it, their games would be a jumbled mess. The porn in this case is dead weight and not contributing to the gameplay, and for future reference dead weight-porn (haha nero). When it comes to game design, it's important to make sure that everything has something to give to the gameplay, otherwise it might end up being detrimental.

However, not everyone decides to get rid of this dead weight. Either they are simply inexperienced, stubborn, or simply don't care too much about the quality of their game. If a game succeeds like this, which it likely will since most people care more about fetishes than game quality, it will inevitbly inspire someone else to make their own game following a similar poor formula. Then another game is made, more people are inspired, and the cycle continues.

So, how do we keep the porn without damaging the quality of the game?

Presenting: Sexual Game Mechanics
This is a little straightforward, but having the porn pull it's own weight (referred to as sexual game mechanics, or an SGM) is the key to this problem. However, due to their nature, sexual game mechanics need certain conditions to thrive, since they are a more specific category of game mechanics.

The first and most important condition is the relevance of the SGMs. If there isn't a point to the sexual content or a reason to pursue it besides "It's sex", it's just dead weight. SGMs should be part of the main gameplay loop, like the fighting in a fighting game. However, it doesn't always need to be battle-fuck mechanics, since that might not work in a colony simulator. What the sexual mechanics do should make sense for the game's genre.

The second condition is pacing, where the sexual content needs to be able to keep up with the pace of the game. Because of how sexual game mechanics are sexual, the pacing for them can't be too slow or too fast. Not every genre makes a good porn game, like grand-strategy games. However, this isn't a very
restricting condition since the pacing is acceptable as long as the in-gameplay sexual content is enjoyable.

Lastly, is scale. While this one is a little self-explanatory, a game needs sufficient amount of sexual content to avoid repitition. If there isn't enough content for the frequency of the mechanic, players will quickly get tired of it.

Ultimately, SGMs are still game mechanics, and are to be treated as such. They need to be balanced out, polished, and fun, like any other (generally speaking). SGMs aren't always inherently good, just as some game mechanics can be bad. I can't guarentee that following all the conditions above will make a perfect porn game, since one or two good mechanics can't fix a bad game alone.

Reguarding Other Sexual Content
Galleries
Now galleries aren't inherently bad, but they often encourage dead weight-porn. While the idea of letting the player revisit sexual content quickly sounds good, this is often used as a crutch to avoid making (good) SGMs. This doesn't mean you can't have anything resembling a gallery, but it's a good idea to pretend it isn't there for the sake of fap-ability during gameplay.

Game Over Sex
Again, this isn't an inherently bad thing, but it is usually misused. The obvious problem with this is that the sexual content (something the player desires) requires you to play poorly, contradicting the idea of rewarding skill. This isn't an issue if it's only a bit of the sexual content, but when it's the ONLY sexual content, it starts to be problematic.

I get that you're coming at this from a Game Dev perspective in which everything needs to be all about gameplay, all the time. But consider that porn has always been a fundamentally passive experience, all the way back to the days of penny arcades.

Would you argue that Visual Novels should require the player to make choices after literally every line of text? Of course not! You'd recognize that part of the "gameplay" in a Visual Novel is reading, comprehension, remembering, critical thinking, imagining unspoken details-- generally, the type of immersion that comes from reading a good book. Rather than seeking to gamify the whole experience so the story isn't "dead weight," you'd probably argue for the opposite:

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that use smoke and mirrors to seem more significant than they are.

Likewise, part of the gameplay in a sex game is the sex. It's literally half of the phrase "sex game." If you're reading a visual novel, you're doing gameplay. If you're becoming aroused by a porn game, you're doing gameplay.

From an artistic perspective, the point is moot. Nobody thinks the Meet And Fuck games on Newgrounds were higher quality than Fate Stay Night simply because you have to click on her boobs in the right order to get the scene to advance.

I actually spent years chewing on this problem before realizing that it was a false dichotomy. Do you want to know what happens when you try to put gameplay first in a sex scene? Because I can tell you. You get one of three things:

• The challenge comes from trying to get characters to have sex with you. This implies they don't want to have sex with you. (De facto rape, or at least a very rapey vibe until they "come around.")
• The challenge comes from trying to get the woman off before your character cums. (Turns sex into a chore. Very mechanical, not very emotional, other than the emotion called 'frustration' if you lose. Nothing kills the chemistry between characters dead in its tracks quite like an Orgasm Meter popping up. You suddenly go from a peak experience of reading about sex to the arbitrary button-mashing of a QTE.)
• The challenge comes from trying to avoid sex. (Ryona; Bad Ends; Still rapey but now the player is getting raped. This can actually work if the player is submissive and their emotional reason for engaging with the media is to experience a simulated scenario of being raped within a safe environment. It's still Ludonarraive Dissonance, but it's okay because that's what the player was going for.)

Now, all of the above have been done before, and can arguably be done more or less well. But these games do not tend to shoot to the tops of the charts. They languish, niche experiences at best, obscure experiments at worst.

Occasionally, you'll get something like Hunie Pop or Deep Space Waifu that has very solid gameplay, for a sex game, but only a very tenuous, abstract link between the gameplay and the sexual actions it's supposed to represent.

This is because porn games are a

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. They have been all along.

• The Promise of Porn: Barriers to sex that exist in the real world are nonexistent or else trivially overcome. (requires contrivances that make sex easy)
• The Promise of Video Games: If you practice this skill, you'll 'git gud' and be able to earn the reward that comes from beating the game. (requires contrivances that make success difficult)-- ERROR! CONFLICTING GOALS!

But that hasn't stopped people from making and playing them for literally the last 40 years.

You just have to put the hardcore gameplay someplace other than during the sex scene. Put some casual gameplay or even toy-like interactivity there. Make sex the reward for a job well done, not because the player is owed it, but because the other character appreciates the MC. Make it a playground for player expression. Or a way to rack up bonus points. Or even just a reactive VR simulation with no real stakes, goal or ending.

But don't try to make it the core gameplay loop. That's not how any of this works.

(Except for Cock Hero games, I guess. But you can do those with a simple video file, so are they really interactive? )

 

[nulnil]

I actually spent years chewing on this problem before realizing that it was a false dichotomy. Do you want to know what happens when you try to put gameplay first in a sex scene? Because I can tell you. You get one of three things:

This depends on what gameplay it is, and what the sex scene is too. This appears to be in the context of a combat-based game. For the sex scene, this depends if it's a mini-VN or a short animation.

• The challenge comes from trying to get characters to have sex with you. This implies they don't want to have sex with you. (De facto rape, or at least a very rapey vibe until they "come around.")
• The challenge comes from trying to get the woman off before your character cums. (Turns sex into a chore. Very mechanical, not very emotional, other than the emotion called 'frustration' if you lose. Nothing kills the chemistry between characters dead in its tracks quite like an Orgasm Meter popping up. You suddenly go from a peak experience of reading about sex to the arbitrary button-mashing of a QTE.)
• The challenge comes from trying to avoid sex. (Ryona; Bad Ends; Still rapey but now the player is getting raped. This can actually work if the player is submissive and their emotional reason for engaging with the media is to experience a simulated scenario of being raped within a safe environment. It's still Ludonarraive Dissonance, but it's okay because that's what the player was going for.)

Again, I did not say any of this nor does what I say come to this conclusion. You seem to be thinking of Interactive Sex Scenes, which are only a type of SGM. The rate of which a dick crams into a vagina is not the only kind of possible sexual game mechanic.

The first point (going off it's vagueness) happens in most porn games already since you have to seduce the LI's to see the sex scene. What you probably meant assumes the enemies don't even operate on the same mechanics as you, like a shooter game where the enemies only have melee attacks (and they're designed to be fought with melee combat). That just sums up to bad game design. Now if it does go both ways, we call those 'stakes'.

The second point is just about a specific type of shallow mechanic.

The third is just designing the porn badly, or it's not a game meant for you.

Occasionally, you'll get something like Hunie Pop or Deep Space Waifu that has very solid gameplay, for a sex game, but only a very tenuous, abstract link between the gameplay and the sexual actions it's supposed to represent.

That's the point of the whole post. Some porn games may have good gameplay, but completely fail to link the gameplay and sex together, or otherwise give the porn any impact.

This is because porn games are a

You must be registered to see the links

. They have been all along.

• The Promise of Porn: Barriers to sex that exist in the real world are nonexistent or else trivially overcome. (requires contrivances that make sex easy)
• The Promise of Video Games: If you practice this skill, you'll 'git gud' and be able to earn the reward that comes from beating the game. (requires contrivances that make success difficult)-- ERROR! CONFLICTING GOALS!

But that hasn't stopped people from making and playing them for literally the last 40 years.

You just have to put the hardcore gameplay someplace other than during the sex scene. Put some casual gameplay or even toy-like interactivity there. Make sex the reward for a job well done, not because the player is owed it, but because the other character appreciates the MC. Make it a playground for player expression. Or a way to rack up bonus points. Or even just a reactive VR simulation with no real stakes, goal or ending.

This also assumes the porn is a carrot on a stick that the player chases after (which is just compensating for overall bad gameplay). The gameplay should be fun on it's own and not need external rewards (the sex scenes) to be fulfilling.

Now I'm going to ask you a question, have you play any of the following games?

• DOOM Eternal
• ULTRAKILL
• Rimworld
• Payday 2
• Devil May Cry

What all these games have in common is that the gameplay is inherently fun on it's own. Not because you need to grind for reward, or because you need to chase down collectables. This is what the post is seeking.

You wanna know what the reward is for getting all perfect ranks in ACT-1 ULTRAKILL is? Getting to fight a super boss. The fun is in the fight, not because you get a new weapon or more money afterwards.

 

[TranscendentThots]

This depends on what gameplay it is, and what the sex scene is too. This appears to be in the context of a combat-based game. For the sex scene, this depends if it's a mini-VN or a short animation.


Again, I did not say any of this nor does what I say come to this conclusion. You seem to be thinking of Interactive Sex Scenes, which are only a type of SGM. The rate of which a dick crams into a vagina is not the only kind of possible sexual game mechanic.

The first point (going off it's vagueness) happens in most porn games already since you have to seduce the LI's to see the sex scene. What you probably meant assumes the enemies don't even operate on the same mechanics as you, like a shooter game where the enemies only have melee attacks (and they're designed to be fought with melee combat). That just sums up to bad game design. Now if it does go both ways, we call those 'stakes'.

The second point is just about a specific type of shallow mechanic.

The third is just designing the porn badly, or it's not a game meant for you.



That's the point of the whole post. Some porn games may have good gameplay, but completely fail to link the gameplay and sex together, or otherwise give the porn any impact.


This also assumes the porn is a carrot on a stick that the player chases after (which is just compensating for overall bad gameplay). The gameplay should be fun on it's own and not need external rewards (the sex scenes) to be fulfilling.

Now I'm going to ask you a question, have you play any of the following games?

• DOOM Eternal
• ULTRAKILL
• Rimworld
• Payday 2
• Devil May Cry

What all these games have in common is that the gameplay is inherently fun on it's own. Not because you need to grind for reward, or because you need to chase down collectables. This is what the post is seeking.

You wanna know what the reward is for getting all perfect ranks in ACT-1 ULTRAKILL is? Getting to fight a super boss. The fun is in the fight, not because you get a new weapon or more money afterwards.

I made a very general point about the nature of challenge in gameplay, and you responded by attacking a very narrowly-defined strawman argument. Probably there's some conflict between our definitions of "gameplay." Do you agree with all of the following statements?

• "Gameplay" requires a goal and a failure state, otherwise it's just fiddling with a toy.
• The game needs to "push back" against the player's attempts to "win" in some way, otherwise it's just solving a puzzle. This is called "challenge."

I'm willing to accept the criticism that I was too narrow in my bumbling attempts to define said challenge. But in order to convince me that it's not a Cursed Problem, you'll need to show examples of other sources of challenge that I haven't considered yet. Or, you'll need to describe these "sexual game mechanics" that happen during a sex scene but are somehow not "sexual mini-games."

Can you point to a game that already exists that delivers such mechanics well? If not, can you describe a sexual game mechanic that nobody's ever done before, that you're imagining?

Sure, there are lots of possible game verbs besides "adjust dick movement speed." Some of them are really intuitive, like "touch her body everywhere" or "say things that turn her on." But I struggle to imagine a way to show feedback in a way non-ambiguous enough that the player can think ahead and form strategies. You touch her somewhere, maybe she makes noises if she likes it. That's about the extent of it. At best, you've got gameplay along the lines of "hot or cold" where you're trying to figure out the right place to click with incomplete information.

You can make more complicated gameplay if you actually display targets on her body, with some sort of considerations for touching them in the right order or giving the right input for each type of target or whatever. But Touching Games in Japan already do that, and they remain niche. In fact, they usually involve some sort of "excuse" for touching clothed women, to find out if they're demons or witches or something, as if touching women to make them feel good wasn't strong enough of a mechanic to support the whole game.

The UI also tends to feel very "video gamey," which makes immersion arguably worse than in a VN. I tried mockups where the targets are flowers. I tried mockups where the targets are blushes or sweatdrops. Simple circles and raw numbers were always "better," but they never really felt "good."

If you think all this has an obvious solution I'm just not seeing, please, describe it to us. Otherwise, it makes sense to treat it as a Cursed Problem and

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described in the video.

How do you make "sex gameplay" challenging and intuitive and mechanically deep and close enough to reality that the only affordance you need is naked hot people and some voice barks? Maybe eye contact, if you're doing VR.

Because if you don't have any specific ideas, you're just restating a problem that an entire global industry has been trying to solve for 40 years and not really making much headway.

And that's just assuming pure artistic intent with no profit motive. It gets worse when you start to consider marketing. Depending on your target demographic, the market rewards some blend of "make the characters look hot," "nail the right vibe," "make the story well-written," and occasionally, "representation." I'm hard-pressed to think of a single adult game whose gameplay was the main selling point. Can you? (That's not rhetorical! Please, prove me wrong!)

 

[nulnil]

I made a very general point about the nature of challenge in gameplay, and you responded by attacking a very narrowly-defined strawman argument. Probably there's some conflict between our definitions of "gameplay." Do you agree with all of the following statements?

• "Gameplay" requires a goal and a failure state, otherwise it's just fiddling with a toy.
• The game needs to "push back" against the player's attempts to "win" in some way, otherwise it's just solving a puzzle. This is called "challenge."

I'm willing to accept the criticism that I was too narrow in my bumbling attempts to define said challenge. But in order to convince me that it's not a Cursed Problem, you'll need to show examples of other sources of challenge that I haven't considered yet. Or, you'll need to describe these "sexual game mechanics" that happen during a sex scene but are somehow not "sexual mini-games."

Can you point to a game that already exists that delivers such mechanics well? If not, can you describe a sexual game mechanic that nobody's ever done before, that you're imagining?

Look, sexual mechanics aren't just the scene. If you were actually limited to the scenes alone, you would be very, very limited. Let me list a few examples:

1. Sex Combat/Battle Fuck: In games like Karryn's Prison, Degrees of Lewdity, and other sex fight games, this is the SGM you see the most. It's pretty self explanatory, but the sex IS the combat, and is balanced around that. Very rarely are there one-off scenes in these kinds of games.
2. Corruption: Here, the mechanic isn't about the sex scene/animation/smut, but after it. The sex gives you some kind of effect afterwards which you have to plan for.
3. Breeding: Honestly really similar to corruption but with more logistics mixed in. There aren't alot of actual breeding games out there, but Breeders of the Nephelym is the best (not a great one though) example.
4. Tool-Type: In games like DOOM Eternal/DMC, the player has an arsenal of abilties and weapons to fight their enemies. Here, the sex can also be an ability of the player, like an sex grab that heals them when they hit a stunned enemy.

Those are just a few I could think of in a couple of minutes. You could think of tons of different examples here with more time.

I'm hard-pressed to think of a single adult game whose gameplay was the main selling point. Can you? (That's not rhetorical! Please, prove me wrong!)

Buddy, you aren't looking hard enough. 10-25% of games here are focused on gameplay, some better than others. I'll name what I currently have downloaded.

1. Alien Quest Eve
2. Bare Backstreets
3. Breeders of the Nephelym
4. Captivity (I know for a fact this game was sold for money)
5. Daisenka
6. Going Deeper
7. Degrees of Lewdity
8. Karryn's Prison
9. PURE ONYX
10. Rignetta's Adventure
11. Sorceress End

 

[nulnil]

Bump/Edit 3:

Made what SGMs are and the conditions a little more specific.