VN Ren'Py Shattered Dreams: Redemption [v0.5] [Nebula Dreams]

[Nebula Dreams]

Thanks to you for clarifying the problem and solving it.

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[Skylaroo]

Platitudes are nice, but in a oversaturated market, why not give yourself the best chance of success with the main audience? How many have to fail in the same manner for people to understand that blindly 'follow your vision' means shoot yourself in the foot more often than not?

But what makes you the representative of the main audience to give the dev the best chance of success? You haven't even played the game.

Just like blindly following their vision can mean shooting themselves in the foot, so can blindly following an individual player's preference. Simply put, the game is not made for that individual. Your preference is not more/less valid than someone else's.

 

[NebulousShooter]

But what makes you the representative of the main audience to give the dev the best chance of success? You haven't even played the game.

Just like blindly following their vision can mean shooting themselves in the foot, so can blindly following an individual player's preference. Simply put, the game is not made for that individual. Your preference is not more/less valid than someone else's.

What a funny coincidence that every time cuck adjacent content happens there are only people like you that doesn't mind it, or fans of that genre that run defense. You never see a vanilla/romance fan saying "I hate it, but I want the dev to follow his vision". Very peculiar detail.

What I posted is not an individual player's preference, its what I picked over the years from the largest fanbase on the site and the mountain of failed attempts to play both sides in the Abandoned aisle are my receipts.

He can do what he likes, I said my piece, his and now yours continuous attempts to gotcha me is what still keeps me in the thread.

 

[Nebula Dreams]

Knowing/Assuming and actually seeing it are two entirely different things, if you cannot understand a principle as simple as that(or my bet, you pretend you don't) then that stops in its tracks any discussion we can have on that subject.

If "knowing/assuming and actually seeing it" are two totally different things, then why are you here yelling that, regardless of whether the player sees the scene or not, they’ll be disgusted by the LI because this scenes exists?

By your logic, a player who doesn't see the scene shouldn’t be affected at all by its existence, right?

Every time someone bends over backwards to explain the necessity of 'voyeurism' scenes for the plot tm, everyone know why they are there, but for whatever reason its always mental gymnastics and justifications, realism and immersion, insulting everyone's intelligence in the process.

It’s your bad faith that insults people’s intelligence. You describe "voyeurism" as nothing more than a way to make the player feel like a cuck, because if I follow your logic when you watch porn or play VN you are a cuck no? You're not the one who fuck the girls.

But I get it now—you absolutely want to be involved in every scene, to be the dominant male who sleeps with all the girls, right?

Bottom line, a vanilla/romance fan has no need to read details, or worse see them rendered and animated, about a Romantic Option's previous, or ongoing sex life. It's as simple as that, that type of info/scenes are designed for the armchair populace, which you claim you totally don't court

Oh, I see now—the girl has to be perfect, a virgin with a body count of zero, and you have to be her hero who comes to save her, right?

What a funny coincidence that every time cuck adjacent content happens there are only people like you that doesn't mind it, or fans of that genre that run defense. You never see a vanilla/romance fan saying "I hate it, but I want the dev to follow his vision". Very peculiar detail.

What I posted is not an individual player's preference, its what I picked over the years from the largest fanbase on the site and the mountain of failed attempts to play both sides in the Abandoned aisle are my receipts.

He can do what he likes, I said my piece, his and now yours continuous attempts to gotcha me is what still keeps me in the thread.

At first, I thought you were here to give real constructive criticism, but I quickly realized you don’t actually care.

You’re the great messenger of vanilla/romance players (probably harem too?) who absolutely don’t want any LI to even place her hand on another man’s shoulder. And so, you come here to dictate to new developers on this site how they should make their games.

But I should listen to you, right?
Because you, with your 4,000 forum posts, clearly know best—I should abandon my vision, my story, and just follow your wisdom.

Oh, great master, please enlighten me with your holy words.

Jokes aside, have you actually saved any games like this? Or rather, how many developers have you successfully demotivated?

 

[NebulousShooter]

It’s your bad faith that insults people’s intelligence. You describe "voyeurism" as nothing more than a way to make the player feel like a cuck, because if I follow your logic when you watch porn

Watching porn, or watching Randoms you never interact with is not the same thing like watching people you have emotional attachment with. Again you offer good examples of how to implement voyeurism, yet you use a LI from the game to do it, so the player sees what he lost, because that is why its there to get an emotional reaction from players. If we drill more I am sure you will finally learn this thing called transparency, instead of mental gymnastics of why people should be fine with it.

or play VN you are a cuck no? You're not the one who fuck the girls.

He typed about my argument being in bad faith and this is his argument

Anyway, one more try. Either you self insert like most people(name changing is like the #1 most asked feature in a VN, I wonder why) do, or try to roleplay as the MC, interactive stories are not like reading books, watching porn etc where you are a 3rd party just going with the flow, you make choices and experience the consequences of those choices. Again if you need to have explained a concept as simple as this, as a game dev, I don't know what to tell you...

You’re the great messenger of vanilla/romance players (probably harem too?) who absolutely don’t want any LI to even place her hand on another man’s shoulder.

Hello? I was the one that suggested the PDA in the first place. You see mr good faith argument how you are more preoccupied with trying to own me than actually engaging? Just call me an incel and be done with it, I know its coming Thanks for the laugh, gotta love good old lack of self awareness.

Because you, with your 4,000 forum posts, clearly know best

If you decided to go full redacted, you should have also mentioned my girthy, veiny reaction count. Turns out quite a few people tend to agree with me.

 

[Skylaroo]

What a funny coincidence that every time cuck adjacent content happens there are only people like you that doesn't mind it, or fans of that genre that run defense. You never see a vanilla/romance fan saying "I hate it, but I want the dev to follow his vision". Very peculiar detail.

I find it really weird that you think it's a very peculiar detail that people who don't mind or fans of any genre (not even specifically about "cuck adjacent content") not complaining about that genre. Of course anyone would only complain about something if they hate it. That's just common sense.

However, this also depends on how secure/insecure the person is. When it comes to optional content, I have been that guy who thought "I hate it, but I want the dev to follow his vision" in many games because I can understand there are other people who don't mind it or a fan of it, and I can just skip that optional content. Only someone insecure would request a removal of something optional when they are already given the power to not consume that content.

What I posted is not an individual player's preference, its what I picked over the years from the largest fanbase on the site and the mountain of failed attempts to play both sides in the Abandoned aisle are my receipts.

This is probably the most narcissistic post I've ever seen since 2017.

He can do what he likes, I said my piece, his and now yours continuous attempts to gotcha me is what still keeps me in the thread.

I have zero interest in trying to gotcha you. I'm genuinely interested in trying to understand your reasoning behind your comment. I'm wondering how someone can be so insecure about optional content.

Genuine question, what do you think the purpose of optional content is?

EDIT:

If you decided to go full redacted, you should have also mentioned my girthy, veiny reaction count. Turns out quite a few people tend to agree with me.

Sorry, this is the most narcissistic post I've ever seen since 2017.

 

[NebulousShooter]

Genuine question, what do you think the purpose of optional content is?

What I claimed from the get go, target different audience, playing both sides. I just don't like the pretend we don't know why scenes are in the game and what are designed to do.

There are zero posts of mine 'complaining' in open NTR/Hotwife games, I wonder why? Would it have anything to do with devs there being open about what their games are about and if I want to try it I know exactly what I get myself into? There is zero dance around tags and semantics in those games. Its always the guys that don't pick a lane that grate on me, because like I said, it insults everyone's intelligence and is disrespectful of peoples time.

Sorry, this is the most narcissistic post I've ever seen since 2017.

Autismo? You know what the kappa emoji is for, right?

I have zero interest in trying to gotcha you.

Clearly

 

[Nebula Dreams]

He typed about my argument being in bad faith and this is his argument

Anyway, one more try. Either you self insert like most people(name changing is like the #1 most asked feature in a VN, I wonder why) do, or try to roleplay as the MC, interactive stories are not like reading books, watching porn etc where you are a 3rd party just going with the flow, you make choices and experience the consequences of those choices. Again if you need to have explained a concept as simple as this, as a game dev, I don't know what to tell you...

And you didn’t realize I was literally using your own logic to make the comparison? Wow, I don’t even know what to say.

But don’t worry, I’m well aware that the goal of a VN is to immerse the player in the story.
That’s exactly why the content is optional, as I’ve said a thousand times already. And yet, strangely enough, every time I reply to you on this topic, you conveniently ignore my message

I think you know you’re wrong and that you’re just one of the few crying over optional content—because your ego can’t handle the idea of an girl being involved in a scene without you.

Hello? I was the one that suggested the PDA in the first place. You see mr good faith argument how you are more preoccupied with trying to own me than actually engaging? Just call me an incel and be done with it, I know its coming Thanks for the laugh, gotta love good old lack of self awareness.

I won’t say it outright, but your behavior comes very close to it. But it's okay, don’t worry—everything’s going to be just fine.

What I claimed from the get go, target different audience, playing both sides. I just don't like the pretend we don't know why scenes are in the game and what are designed to do.

There are zero posts of mine 'complaining' in open NTR/Hotwife games, I wonder why? Would it have anything to do with devs there being open about what their games are about and if I want to try it I know exactly what I get myself into? There is zero dance around tags and semantics in those games. Its always the guys that don't pick a lane that grate on me, because like I said, it insults everyone's intelligence and is disrespectful of peoples time.

I noticed that you like BaDIK, so in your opinion, when Maya and Josy have sex multiple times in the game, does that mean DrPinkCake is playing in both lanes, being disrespectful, and insulting the intelligence of others? Is that it?

Yet, it’s exactly the same situation I’m describing—one LI (two in BaDIK) having a lesbian scene with another girl.
And yet, in BaDIK, Maya and Josy can still be LIs that you haven’t rejected, depending on your choices.

 

[PickerLewd]

The game looks pretty good for a new dev's first project, he must have experience from before for sure, remember the first chapters of first time devs back in 2020-2021? They were justifiable in those first hard attempts, but then came the pandemic of reworks .

I've played all kinds of games and almost nothing offends me, so I respect every idea the dev has. I played up to the part where you sign up to be Mina's assistant.

A game where there will be a monogamous relationship with its own drama, I'll write what I think about some of the characters:

MC: A very sad life, I swear in the first scenes I thought he was going to try to commit suicide, but I was wrong . The worst thing is not the injury or the loss of fame, but the fact that he hasn't earned a penny. Apart from his idiot father or the possible drama with the girls, I can't see him getting into any more trouble... well, there's the Mafia, which at first seemed to be united only by the father, but it looks like they're going to be the main plot.

Maddison: A total keeper, someone who is there for you in your worst moments is priceless, and she's beautiful. Let's be fair, there are very few games where the developer plays dirty and introduces an ugly girl with a personality so great it makes you wonder and doubt.
For me the game is over, you can only choose one girl, so I choose Maddie, who has been around forever, The End™.

Jennie: All normal, it's okay. I didn't call her after the first date because I chose the other option, if it's like other games, I probably won't see her again because of that decision.

Lena: A real landlady and not a mother in disguise .
I was amused by the amount of questions she asked you during the sofa chat, surely it was the dev testing the waters .
She also calls me a hypocrite and gets angry when I tell her I don't care about nude pics on the internet unless it's my girlfriend. I think I lost her for the rest of the game with that answer .

Mina: I can't figure her out, she's the Korean pop singer.
Okay, at least we have to help her get rid of the corrupt manager, but I have no idea where her plot is going.

Whoever can contribute to the game, please do so, I would also recommend selling it on itch.

Cheers !

 

[Skylaroo]

What I claimed from the get go, target different audience, playing both sides. I just don't like the pretend we don't know why scenes are in the game and what are designed to do.

There are zero posts of mine 'complaining' in open NTR/Hotwife games, I wonder why? Would it have anything to do with devs there being open about what their games are about and if I want to try it I know exactly what I get myself into? There is zero dance around tags and semantics in those games. Its always the guys that don't pick a lane that grate on me, because like I said, it insults everyone's intelligence and is disrespectful of peoples time.

I always find it interesting when someone chooses to dance around to avoid giving direct answer to a straight forward question. What is even the purpose of quoting the question lol?

All it comes down to is that you're interpreting and equating voyeurism as NTR. The inability to differentiate the two is something that is your own. Coupled with the inability to understand the purpose of optional content, then we end up with you. Someone who complains about something that they made up themselves. Sadly not the first person to do this, and sadly not going to be last one either.

This is the result when someone is not commenting about what is in the game, but about something that is in their mind.

 

[NebulousShooter]

I always find it interesting when someone chooses to dance around to avoid giving direct answer to a straight forward question. What is even the purpose of quoting the question lol?

All it comes down to is that you're interpreting and equating voyeurism as NTR. The inability to differentiate the two is something that is your own. Coupled with the inability to understand the purpose of optional content, then we end up with you. Someone who complains about something that they made up themselves. Sadly not the first person to do this, and sadly not going to be last one either.

This is the result when someone is not commenting about what is in the game, but about something that is in their mind.

My answer is right there in the quote, voyeurism with a game's romantic partner is designed to cause the same type of emotions like a NTR scene, the same type of people will love it and the same other type of people will hate it. Just because with the current tag(I'm not sure with the new one) system doesn't qualify, which getting a tag isn't even my point, doesn't change the fact that it has the same narrative reason to exist.

The example the dev used MC 'watching porn', or the one I used, walking in on 'randoms fucking' are not designed the same way a NTR scene is. Its as simple as that.

You know it, the dev knows it, everybody that isn't on some disingenuous crusade to champion that type of kink even if it makes them look hypocritical knows what a scene with a LI and non MC is designed to do. The fact that you keep dancing around it, while claiming I am the one not being straight is just more credence to my post about you being more preoccupied with trying to gotcha me.

Optional content is designed to target different types of players, the type of scenes in question here are designed to appeal to that particular type of player, but for whatever reason everyone is supposed to pretend that we don't get it, sorry pattern recognition is a bitch

I noticed that you like BaDIK, so in your opinion, when Maya and Josy have sex multiple times in the game, does that mean DrPinkCake is playing in both lanes, being disrespectful, and insulting the intelligence of others? Is that it?

Yet, it’s exactly the same situation I’m describing—one LI (two in BaDIK) having a lesbian scene with another girl.
And yet, in BaDIK, Maya and Josy can still be LIs that you haven’t rejected, depending on your choices.

I literally don't know who you do it, its 3/3 using the perfect example for me. Are you sure you are not trying to help me?

Spoiler

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Now I am truly done, ignoring the thread, I at least had some laugh with peoples attempt to pick only the bits of text they thought will get me and completely ignoring everything else I posted, but now I regret if I made you waste too much time from rendering 'voyeurism' scenes.

Good luck!

 

[Nebula Dreams]

Which M&J scene, the flashback that shows them kissing and then fades to black(see my first post, again, and maybe actually read it this time), or their scene in ep6 that is shown when the player is on the throuple route, the opposite of your game's case?

I honestly think you're either an idiot or you're doing this on purpose.

You spent the entire evening crying about how just the existence of the scene would upset people who like that LI.

I gave you an example where a similar scene exists—even if you don’t follow the path for those LIs, the scene is still in the game. It’s the exact same concept as the scene we’re talking about, where you are not forced to watch it.

Anything that can be remotely considered unsavory is saved for tertiary characters/side fucks, non important character, nothing with the Main Girls, you know, your selling point for your game?

But since we are on the topic, I wonder how that game manages to have sex workers as fan-favorite characters for vanilla fans, maybe beacuse you don't have 'voyeurism' scenes with them, or find sex tapes, or photos, or read their thoughts comparing dick taste between clients, aka that dev doesn't rub it into players faces. Alien concept, I am telling you, a game designed for a vanilla audience not pissing in their faces and telling them its rain.

And now you're making things up that I never said. Who ever said we gonna "read their thoughts comparing dick taste between clients" exactly?
You're the one creating things and twisting interpretations.

Just like you’ve been doing since the beginning of this conversation, telling that voyeurism content is NTR, built specifically for cucks/armchair players.

Now I am truly done, ignoring the thread, I at least had some laugh with peoples attempt to pick only the bits of text they thought will get me and completely ignoring everything else I posted, but now I regret if I made you waste too much time from rendering 'voyeurism' scenes.

Oh yeah, you’ll just move on to another developer, tell them their way of doing things is trash, that they’re "playing between the lanes,'"and that they should listen to Mr. 4000 Forum Posts instead.

And saying we’re only taking parts of your texts out of context? That’s some next-level hypocrisy.
You’ve spent your entire evening cherry-picking parts of my messages, completely missing the point most of the time, and now we’re the ones ignoring what you’ve said?

Still, it’s a shame—you still haven’t told me which games you’ve 'saved' with your precious advice, delivered with that insufferable condescension of yours.

We could’ve actually had a normal discussion if you were a bit more civilized and didn’t barge in attacking people like this. But hey, I guess that's all you've got to do in your life—being condescending on a forum.

 

[PickerLewd]

I forgot to mention my only "complaint" so far .

From the second sex scene with Maddison, she seems to have shaved off the little landing strip she wore in the first scene.

Unacceptable and unplayable .

 

[Nebula Dreams]

I forgot to mention my only "complaint" so far .

From the second sex scene with Maddison, she seems to have shaved off the little landing strip she wore in the first scene.

Unacceptable and unplayable .

I’ll ask Maddison to fix that for the next update, sir.

 

[hysepReC]

Only really interested in Mina. She must be be protected at all costs. Maddison would be my second choice, but she doesn't seem to have much of a character outside of being the MC's booty call who wants something more.

Also, I found it weird how Lena asks if she's a 'fling, roommate, or something else'. She should know that we're not romantically compatible after the conversation about her career ended with her calling me a hypocrite.

 

[Nebula Dreams]

Also, I found it weird how Lena asks if she's a 'fling, roommate, or something else'. She should know that we're not romantically compatible after the conversation about her career ended with her calling me a hypocrite.

Hypocrite, that’s just her way of saying she loves you.
(No, but seriously, it means you talked to her about Mina, so you made up for it after the quiz )

 

[MiltonPowers]

Hypocrite, that’s just her way of saying she loves you.
(No, but seriously, it means you talked to her about Mina, so you made up for it after the quiz )

I really didn't want to tell Lena about Mina, I don't think it's any of her business whether I'm on her path or not. But if I don't, I don't get to meet Ella.

 

[Nebula Dreams]

I really didn't want to tell Lena about Mina, I don't think it's any of her business whether I'm on her path or not. But if I don't, I don't get to meet Ella.

I understand you, but don’t worry, she’s not going to disappear... She’ll come back later for you...

 

[hysepReC]

Hypocrite, that’s just her way of saying she loves you.
(No, but seriously, it means you talked to her about Mina, so you made up for it after the quiz )

Honestly, I felt like my answers were reasonable. I don't want to act like an asshole towards her, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to date someone that posts provocative photos online for anyone to see.

I really didn't want to tell Lena about Mina, I don't think it's any of her business whether I'm on her path or not. But if I don't, I don't get to meet Ella.

I told her about Mina and still didn't meet anyone called Ella. Guess you also need to pass her little test as well for that.

 

[Skylaroo]

My answer is right there in the quote, voyeurism with a game's romantic partner is designed to cause the same type of emotions like a NTR scene

I think this is a very misguided train of thought. The fundamental aspect is the "romantic partner". NTR clearly revolves around current romantic partner (i.e.: your gf or wife). On the other hand, voyeurism is not with the current romantic partner (i.e.: anyone who isn't your gf or wife). Considering that dev explained that the planned scene is with an LI that you rejected (i.e.: you have no romantic interest in her), then clearly it isn't NTR. While the act of watching is the same, the motive for voyeurism and NTR is very different. To claim that they are designed to cause the same type of emotion while having different motive makes no sense.

Watching porn, or watching Randoms you never interact with is not the same thing like watching people you have emotional attachment with. Again you offer good examples of how to implement voyeurism, yet you use a LI from the game to do it, so the player sees what he lost, because that is why its there to get an emotional reaction from players.

Sorry I missed this post of yours before and this is actually a great post. The key point here is the emotional attachment. I agree with you that watching porn or randoms having sex give no emotional attachment. However, the difference between you and me is that I'm able to detach that emotion because I'm not pursuing that LI. I'm not pursuing an LI because I have no romantic interest in her character. Therefore, I don't have emotional attachment to her.

Now the question is, why are you emotionally attached to a character that you don't have romantic interest in? IMO, this is the root of your inability to separate the two because now I understand that it is caused by you having emotional attachment to non romantic partner.

EDIT: I also want to add this part.

Which M&J scene,

M&J is a great example because them being lesbian/throuple is optional. So for those who are not into lesbian/throuple, they can choose to opt out. That doesn't mean that it's a "waste of time" to create that path. Similarly here, even if you really must consider voyeurism evoking the same emotional reaction out of you as NTR, you can choose to not engage in the voyeurism.

What I claimed from the get go, target different audience, playing both sides.

Lastly, I think it is massive exaggeration to claim that dev is playing both sides when the voyeurism is probably less than 1% of the game. You'd have more point if the game heavily focused on voyeurism, but it doesn't. For what it's worth, M&J's relationship is a much more prominent aspect in BADIK (because they are major characters that continue to stay with you throughout the whole game ) than the voyeurism in this game (which only exists if you specifically pursue it and non-existent otherwise). If you're able to accept BADIK having optional content, you should be able to accept this game having optional content too. It is hypocritical otherwise.