So many abandoned games before they even start?

[Smarmint]

Hmm... Yeah, I am really on the opposite end. I want a good story which has some sex in it not sex with a little bit of story in it. For me games like City of Broken Dreams, Ripples, or Light of My Life are exactly the right mix of story and sex. I want to see what happens next in the plot AND I am happy with the sex scenes even though I may not see them all because I choose a couple of LI for the MC and ignore the rest. Nor am I inclined to replay the game multiple times to see all of the sex scenes or unlock a gallery. While games where the woman sees the MC's grotesquely enormous cock and becomes entranced are the standard they are just not what I am looking for personally. I have very limited amounts of time to spend on playing games, any games, and if I need porn to fap off to I can find it on various other websites. That doesn't mean other people can't enjoy that, it just isn't my thing. I'd even enjoy a game like Summer's Gone, which has no sex, if the development cycle wasn't a once or twice a year situation.

I agree with everything you've said here 100%. Anybody can do a quick online search for all the sex scenes they want to see. What separates good VNs from that is the story and the characters. It doesn't have to be outrageously complicated, but as a player I have to care about what is happening, and want to read every word of what the characters are saying. Otherwise, why bother?

There have been many games here that seem promising at the beginning, but after an hour or so, I think to myself, I still don't know anything about any of the characters in this story, other than they are hot for the MC. What is their motivation? What are their goals in life? What drives them each day? What makes them unique or special in some way? Do I care, as a player, what they are saying or thinking? If I can't answer that in my mind, of if the answer is no, I find myself holding down the CTRL key, just to see if something amazing starts to happen with the story, and inevitably it is more of the same, and I stop playing it.

It doesn't have to be complicated, even seemingly cliched stories of a man renting a room with a woman and her daughters, or a freshman at college with a bunch of oversexed coeds, can be good. There are probably hundreds of games here with similar overall themes. Many of these games are not great, but there are several examples of the type that to me are quite good. The difference is how well the dev develops most of the main characters of the game, and whether there is something in the story that is interesting enough for the player to keep reading.

Your examples of City of Broken Dreamers and Light of My Life are great contrasts to show the diversity of stories. City of Broken Dreamers, is a quite complex story, with several characters with conflicting motivations, corporate entities with unknown motivations and goals, and an overall mystery about how both the MC and several of the key supporting characters ended up in their current situation, and it feels like I am reading a sci-fi novel, or playing though a very good sci-fi movie.

On the other side of the coin, you have Light of My Life, which has a quite simple story about a family coming to terms, in their own way, with the death of the MC's wife, his daughters' mother. But in both stories, most of the game is spent on character development. By the time you play a few updates, as a player, you deeply care about what happens to Denise and Macy, or Katie and Gloria.

That is the difference between a game that isn't really worth the time to play, for me, and something great; that you look forward to seeing what happens each update to the characters you've grown to sympathise with and care about as a player. It's very much like waiting for the next book in a beloved series. That is why games like Light of My Life, The Deluca Family, or even something very different like Lessons in Love, have such a devoted following. It is the story and ultimately, the depth of the characters that make most players come back for more, month after month, or even year after year for some rarely updated games.

Jamdan's Completely Unqualified Game Making Guide:

Part 1 Characters: You can't make a game without people to put in them.
...

Exactly. Characters are key. You can have the simplest or most complex story imaginable, but if your characters aren't well fleshed out, unique, and interesting, most players will lose interest, or turn to something more interesting.

Each day 10 or 15 games are either released or updated here on F95. Almost nobody can play them all (or would want to). Why should I, as a player, play your game over any of the many released games here? For me at least, it's not for the hot sex scenes. If I don't care about the characters, I don't care about the sex scenes either. On the other hand, if I deeply care and sympathise with the characters in the VN, the sex scenes, whether they have great animations or are more rudimentary, are a hot and exciting edition to an otherwise deeply felt story.

One last point. And this might just be me, but in my opinion it is a challenge for a VN to hold the interest of the player, once the MC has a full relationship with all of the main characters in the game. There are lots and lots of examples of seemingly great VNs, that just get boring and repetitive once the MC finally is in a full relationship with the LIs in the game. There are some exceptions, both LoML and CoBD are great examples where the story keeps the game fresh after this point, but as a dev you have to have something special going on to keep the interest of the player once they "get the girl". If it is just more dates, romantic talking with slight variations day after day, and repeated sex scenes with just different positions, I get very bored, very quickly. Some games, Where the Heart Is comes to mind, where even once the MC is in a relationship with his chosen LIs, there is still an overarching mystery in the story that keeps the player invested in the story, and wanting to play each update to determine who is double-crossing the MC and (maybe) trying to cheat him out of his inheritance (Dizzy for fans of the game).

As a dev, don't drag your game on and on if nothing special is going to happen. I don't want to give examples of games that do this, but I can think of 5 or 6 very popular games on here, that just got completely repetitive and boring, to me, since nothing really happens once the MC gets with his chosen LIs. Just more of the same, day after day, just with different conversations, with the deepest mystery being where they are going to dinner tonight, or what beach they are going to visit today. It gets old fast, as a player.

 

[Whale_Shark]

Having a tech demo without any real content is perfectly fine, as long as people know that it's just a tech demo. Otherwise they whine or get angry.

I respectfully disagree with you on this. I think that with all the competition out there, if you release something that isn't even a game and then expect people to follow and support you, you're in for a rude awakening. First impressions matter a lot. Even if you clearly state that your game is only a tech demo, you're going to get a bunch of people who complain that you "don't even have a game here" and a bunch of others who say "promising start" and then totally forget about you.

There's simply too many other games and players only have a certain amount of time to play them. By releasing something that is not even a game yet, you're not valuing players' time, and you're not doing anything to set your game apart from the masses. I think if you are really serious about making a game and monetizing it in some way, you need to show players that you are serious by releasing something that has a significant amount of content at launch.

 

[Hagatagar]

I respectfully disagree with you on this. I think that with all the competition out there, if you release something that isn't even a game and then expect people to follow and support you, you're in for a rude awakening. First impressions matter a lot. Even if you clearly state that your game is only a tech demo, you're going to get a bunch of people who complain that you "don't even have a game here" and a bunch of others who say "promising start" and then totally forget about you.

There's simply too many other games and players only have a certain amount of time to play them. By releasing something that is not even a game yet, you're not valuing players' time, and you're not doing anything to set your game apart from the masses. I think if you are really serious about making a game and monetizing it in some way, you need to show players that you are serious by releasing something that has a significant amount of content at launch.

I partially agree, but only if you release a tech demo as a normal game, e.g. in F95zone's games section, tech demos don't belong in there, because tech demos are not games.
I had to make this bigger, otherwise it would have been lost because of the dumb picture in the spoiler below.

Spoiler: Misuse of a meme

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On the other hand if you release a tech demo outside of F95zone and someone uploads it there as a game, it's hardly the developer's fault.


And to be honest it's quite rude to say that you should not release tech demos. Especially as a new game developer, you have to rely on help from others who can tell you what's wrong with the certain mechanics or if it would work in a real game.

 

[Whale_Shark]

And to be honest it's quite rude to say that you should not release tech demos. Especially as a new game developer, you have to rely on help from others who can tell you what's wrong with the certain mechanics or if it would work in a real game.

I wasn't trying to be rude, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was referring to the throngs of games that get released, and posted here on a thread in the games category, with barely any content, but they have a patreon or subscribestar page already up. I think THAT is bad. I have no problem whatsoever with releasing a demo, say, in a development thread on F95zone, like I've seen some devs do. I think we actually agree here, just misunderstanding each other a bit

 

[Tompte]

I think the distinction between a 'tech demo' and an 'alpha' or 'demo' is mostly a semantic argument. It can mean different things to different people. Many people will interpret it to just mean 'unfinished' or 'incomplete'. Of course there are legitimate reasons for devs to want to show off their work and raise awareness of their game but in my opinion there are also a lot of people misusing services like Patreon to monetize promises and expectations to fund their hobby, either in good or bad faith.

Every time someone tries to drum up their Patreon they always release what I like to call a 'game-shaped object'. It's usually called an 'early demo' or an '0.01 alpha' or whatever, that looks and acts like a game but only enough to be presentable and attractive. They set the stage of expectations that will then attract more patrons, expectations that the dev is too often unable to meet. The problem I have with these is that they're incredibly easy to make nowadays without much time or effort. It's almost impossible to tell the difference between a legit game from a serious developer and a game-shaped object.

I'm not saying every dev does this (far from it) but I've seen it happen more often than I'd like, even from devs acting in good faith. Posting demos and early work is fine but once you start asking money for it, it becomes a huge minefield of ethics.

Also, I'd argue it gets even more dubious when it's an adult game because it preys on feelings that the donors may not fully have control over. I know I'm willing to pay quite a bit to get my particular itch scratched and I often take greater risks with my money if it's for something that directly appeals to my inner demons.

(Sorry for the wall of text. I have a lot of thoughts on this topic.)

 

[Hagatagar]

I think the distinction between a 'tech demo' and an 'alpha' or 'demo' is mostly a semantic argument. It can mean different things to different people. Many people will interpret it to just mean 'unfinished' or 'incomplete'.

You are probably right, maybe this is an 'age-thing', back in the days this terms had a much more distinct definition.

Spoiler: A long time ago...

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But like you said: nowadays

 

[Tompte]

I mean, they still mean those things in a technical sense but back then early versions of games weren't so publicly available. Early access has trained us to think 'alpha' means "join the community" and 'beta' means "pre-order now".

 

[Hagatagar]

And to add to the confusion, many gamers think that Early Access should be treated as full/finished games and some AAA+ publishers use the buyers of their v1.0 games as playtesters.

 

[anne O'nymous]

One last point. And this might just be me, but in my opinion it is a challenge for a VN to hold the interest of the player, once the MC has a full relationship with all of the main characters in the game.

And it's where the story really make all the difference.
Whatever who we are, if we play for more than the sole fap, our first goal is to make the MC be in a relationship with the characters that interest us. So, until this point we tend to be less demanding in regard of the story. There's a limit, like you said, but we forgive more easily.
Then, come the moment when we finally reached our goal, and now things become more complicated for the author. This simply because the game can quickly turn into was interest us less, a fuck fest. It's the moment where the story take more importance than everything else, giving us a reason to continue playing.

Alas, too many authors solve the issue by adding new girls to go after. It's a headlong rush that poorly hide the lack of deepness of the story. As side effect, it also lead to a story that its author don't know how to finish, what tend, like you said, to lead to a boring game. The player lost the progression feeling, having to go forward just because he have to do, and not to effectively achieve something.
It's what I talked about in one of my previous comment, when I said that the story hit the wall. There's nothing new to do, just a variation of what the player already did before. And this repetition isn't even an effective progression, because while we advance in a character's path, we still stagnate in the game itself.

Some games, Where the Heart Is comes to mind, where even once the MC is in a relationship with his chosen LIs, there is still an overarching mystery in the story that keeps the player invested in the story, and wanting to play each update to determine who is double-crossing the MC and (maybe) trying to cheat him out of his inheritance (Dizzy for fans of the game).

Yet, it start to run in circle. You progress with the girls, but every time there's a progress in the main story, there's generally also a step back. It was good at first, because it make you question your thoughts regarding the characters and what you feel to be their motivation, but now it start to be boring.
By example (in spoiler for those who haven't yet played it or the last update)

Spoiler

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There's a reason for all this, I have no doubt, and we will learn it one day. But it start to be boring that, after 20 updates, we are still at the same point in the main story. It make the whole thing looks like CheekyGimp want the player to fail, what isn't a good approach for a game.
It have to be a challenge to be interesting, but the game also have to give some clues to let the player decide what route he'll follow. And here, each clue tend to contradict the previous ones, letting the player advance in full darkness, and potentially reach a end that will be the opposite of what he want. We have, from memory, five girls that can possibly be the third heir, and still a blurred guess regarding what the MC have to do to have, or not, his share. This while the girls part of the story start to accelerate (We already had to make a decision on Kathy/Lily/Debbie route. And it will probably come soon for Jenna route.).
So yeah, the whole purpose is for the player to follow his heart and forget about the money, but it doesn't mean that the story itself have to be so frustrating.

As a dev, don't drag your game on and on if nothing special is going to happen. I don't want to give examples of games that do this, but I can think of 5 or 6 very popular games on here, that just got completely repetitive and boring, to me, since nothing really happens once the MC gets with his chosen LIs.

At the opposite, also don't add artificial events if the story can suffice to itself.
Like by example Reunion. The game have an interesting story, the writing isn't bad and progress with each update. It's pleasant to play, as well as to see, and there's sex relatively early. But it's the fourth update, and there's already half of the girls that have a skeleton in their closet, and will need the MC to save her. So far, only three of the girls are expected to be normal girls that will not have a drama part in their story. The MC is only attracted by girls who pay for the negative karma of their previous life, or what ?
There's also WVM, a more on the average game, that rely almost exclusively on Deus Ex Machina for its main story. Everything is fine, the day is shiny, and suddenly, a drama appear from nowhere. What is a shame, because the game fall on your not outrageously complicated story that still make sense and can be interesting. Between the "fuck who you want my love" girlfriend in a college life setting, and the "hey, everyone count on you for our basket ball team to not loose all its games this year" main story, there were already enough for the player to be interested and keep following.


In the end, all this is the reason why you should have the whole story in mind before you start, with at least its main key points. This knowledge help you to balance the story while you'll be making the game. Since you already know what will happen, you'll feel more easily when you'll need to add a short drama/mystery because you're at a moment of the story where what have been put in motion will need time to give result. It will be a slow time, and you need to fill the void for the game to stay interesting. Or at the opposite if you have to forget about this drama/mystery, because things will escalate for one update or two. Then, adding yet another drama/mystery would be too much here ; just keep it in mind, and use it the next time you'll have a slow part.

 

[Deleted member 167032]

Comments and opinions...

That break a lot of developers. Specially one's from other devs.

Comments/opinions that hold no merit to the vision of your game/story breaks you down. Spiteful opinions that carry an edge of "You need to do this or that" doesn't help. Telling a dev how they must make or tell their vision doesn't build up but trust me break down.

I know....

I know a good few devs who stopped or were/are thinking of stopping due to bad and spiteful criticism.

 

[recreation]

Expectations vs reality:
Expectation: "I has graet idea, Ima maek game and get rich in no time, easy money!"
Reality: "Shit takes too much time! My gaem sux! I has no ideas! THIS IS SERIOUS WORK, why I maek no money!"

 

[Deleted member 167032]

Well wiff that spilling no wonder yours gives ups....

Expectations vs reality:
Expectation: "I has graet idea, Ima maek game and get rich in no time, easy money!"
Reality: "Shit takes too much time! My gaem sux! I has no ideas! THIS IS SERIOUS WORK, why I maek no money!"

 

[anne O'nymous]

Reality: "Shit takes too much time! My gaem sux! I has no ideas! THIS IS SERIOUS WORK, why I maek no money!"

Because you write comments instead of updating ?


Don't pay attention, I'm just going

 

[RandomPedanticTribble]

Just have to say from a starting Dev POV, this is all good advice. I think it boils down to starting a game ONLY when you know how its going to finish. The path to get there is what the different chapters / releases are. The balance I think needs to be a balance between new content for every chapter for your MC and base crew, new characters, and new pieces of the overaching puzzle / storyline. (Evidently, new sex scenes too). Before you start coding, flush out all characters. Where do they come from? what's their backstory? How does it fit in? Make a mindmap and a roadmap. *And stick to it*

 

[Tompte]

Just have to say from a starting Dev POV, this is all good advice. I think it boils down to starting a game ONLY when you know how its going to finish. The path to get there is what the different chapters / releases are. The balance I think needs to be a balance between new content for every chapter for your MC and base crew, new characters, and new pieces of the overaching puzzle / storyline. (Evidently, new sex scenes too). Before you start coding, flush out all characters. Where do they come from? what's their backstory? How does it fit in? Make a mindmap and a roadmap. *And stick to it*

It sounds to me like if you're going to make finishing a prerequisite to starting, you're never going to make anything. Planning never hurts, of course, but eventually your rough sketches need to be turned into fine print. That's what game development is. It's not an exact science. Don't feel like you need to put all the burden up front.

You can see a similar line of thinking in people that are learning how to draw. They look at pro artists and think there's a logical method that will just produce amazing art but the real method is the hundreds of sketches and drawings they never showed you.

If you want to stay motivated you need to find what motivates you. No amount of planning will help unless you do that.

 

[RandomPedanticTribble]

It sounds to me like if you're going to make finishing a prerequisite to starting, you're never going to make anything. Planning never hurts, of course, but eventually your rough sketches need to be turned into fine print. That's what game development is. It's not an exact science. Don't feel like you need to put all the burden up front.

You can see a similar line of thinking in people that are learning how to draw. They look at pro artists and think there's a logical method that will just produce amazing art but the real method is the hundreds of sketches and drawings they never showed you.

If you want to stay motivated you need to find what motivates you. No amount of planning will help unless you do that.

The truth probably is somewhere in the middle.
I consider game development to be a journey.
You know where you want to go, you have a rough itinerary in your mind (or written down), but not the exact day to day planning on how you fill the days what you do do to get to your end destination.
The game development is the *path* to your end goal.

One thing which this threqd has made abundantly clear is STORY and Character development.
you need to have an over-arching storyline for your game.
Your characters need to be rock solid. Relatable.
You need to know what character type each character is, what makes them 'tick', how do they think, etc before you start to make interactions with them. If you dont have that crystal clear, your game will be inconsistant and therefore unrelatable (and thus, bad)

For me personally, this means I've mapped all my characters towards -dere types. each dere type has a good description of what is the character about, what you can expect, how they react and interact etc.
this means that if i keep this dere type in my head when writing events, per definition i'll tend to be consistent. It'll 'fit'.
They are the constraints on your journey.

To be fair, I'm a developer by education, an artist by nurture.
My art has been in art galleries and expositions, and I've developped programs to solve crucial problems at some very high profile customers (think multi-billion dollar companies you all know the names of should I be allowed to name them)
But I find myself bored with creating art to be seen and appreciated, bored in developping something for someone else. It's too easy. So I want to combine those two worlds, want to keep my mind busy and entertained - yet using what those cases and past events thought me.
And that happens to bring me here.

That experience thought me planning and preparation is key.
The more legwork you do before you type a single line of code, the more thinking ahead and planning you perform, the better and more consistent your game will be.
Sure - deviate from your path. Explore. Listen to the players, and adapt the road to the changes.
But make sure you end up where you wanted to from the beginning. At least plan for the entire story.
And moods and stories change - but when you start with something, changes to where you end up will be consistent.

(And yes, I'm well aware these are large words for a noob game dev yet to release something. But game development is similar to product and custom dev for customers, and I have 20+ years behind me for the latter...)
My job used to be my hobby - it is no longer the case. So need a new hobby - hence, starting a game. And I might not even release it, or start it, or end it - but I hope to. I want to. I strive to.
And if these words can help someone else in the same situation, then my struggle will not be in vain should I fail on my own game...