Recommending Story-first games

[Mravac Kid]

I honestly don't think any of that will raise the bar of storytelling in porn games, though. There's only really one way to do that, and you're already doing it.

Write.

This.
So much this.
There's so much well-said in this thread that I'm content just to read it as there's nothing meaningful I can add to the discussion, keep up the good work people.
But this one, this just *demanded* my pointing it out. I'm not a writer but I am a reader, and as such I've read many a world-famous writer's works and their takes on writing in general, and they all agree on that point.
Write.
Write whenever it hits you, whenever you feel the urge, whenever you have something to say. Write, write, write.

 

[TheimmortalP]

So, @Arisushi and @JuniorTheJunior's One Night Stand has finally reached its end. I've written about it once or twice, but this latest chapter deserves its own post. Spoilers below.

Thanks for letting me know about how it ends, yeah, it's certainly compelling, and I'm impressed, but I find the good ending far too relatable(and like I said before, I don't wanna be a scumbag), and so I need to avoid it for the sake of my mental health. Maybe one day I'll be ok with that kind of ending.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Write whenever it hits you, whenever you feel the urge, whenever you have something to say. Write, write, write.

And if you're a hack, like me, and you think you don't have anything meaningful to say, figure out the formula that everybody else seems to be using, and write anyway.

Don't like how bad the plot is in most porn? Then don't write the plot using the porn formula. Write it using the Romance formula. Or the Sci-fi formula. Or the shonen battle anime formula. Know your audience, pick your battles, and plug the RNG of your own brain forged by your own life's experience into whatever combination of tried-and-true writing hacks strikes your fancy. Pants when you can. Research when you have to.

You'll know you've stumbled onto something good when your fans start quoting you.

 

[Tlaero]

I mean... I don't wanna argue with your lived experience, but if your fans all seem to think you're a good writer, how could they all be wrong? Who are these so-called "real" writers, anyway?

I believe that I'm a good writer. I've certainly put the work in.

But imagine if Steven King was writing these games. Or James Patterson. Or George R. R. Martin. Or the writers of your favorite TV show or movie. Etc.

If people like that were writing for this genre, there wouldn't be any space for people like me. I'm not saying that the sky is falling. But if erotic game devs are hoping this goes mainstream so that they can make a better living at it, then they should be careful what they wish for.

As for raising the bar on storytelling in this genre. Yep, I literally did that. But that won't amount to much if the professionals get involved.

But while erotic games going mainstream would kill off most or all of the current devs, my crystal ball doesn't tell me whether or not it would be better for the people who play erotic games. You'd get higher quality games, but there would be less variety, and they'd cost a lot more. Hard to tell where that balances out.

Tlaero

 

[Ezykeyal]

Huh, could have sworn 80% of the VN's were written by G.R.R.M. They never get finished...

 

[TranscendentThots]

I honestly don't understand where you're getting some of your ideas. I think maybe you're treating art and even business as more of a zero-sum game than it actually is? With respect, and at the risk of mansplaining:

I believe that I'm a good writer. I've certainly put the work in.

But imagine if Steven King was writing these games. Or James Patterson. Or George R. R. Martin. Or the writers of your favorite TV show or movie. Etc.

I don't understand why you're comparing yourself to creators in other mediums. If you want to write a book, just go write a book.

(I mean, probably do it as an ebook, at first, because the break-even point is much lower. And make sure you commission a good cover that primes readers to understand what genre it's in. But, yeah. If Chuck Tingle can take the internet by storm, anything is possible. All you need is a hook and a kicker. Something Familiar and Something Special. Set up a mailing list. (For some reason, those are still allowed when it comes to text-only porn.) Set up a marketing funnel. Maybe it'll take off. Maybe it won't. You can always keep telling stories about sexy JPEGs of Daz characters on the side until you get your big break.)

But while erotic games going mainstream would kill off most or all of the current devs, my crystal ball doesn't tell me whether or not it would be better for the people who play erotic games. You'd get higher quality games, but there would be less variety, and they'd cost a lot more. Hard to tell where that balances out.

Okay, this is going to sound unrelated at first, but please trust me. I swear I'm going somewhere with it:

Let me tell you about a video game called

You must be registered to see the links

. (Link is a free-to-play early version on itch.) It was made by a single developer who, honestly, didn't really know what they were doing at the time. Oh, don't get me wrong, their code was very clever. But they spent all their time the first year coding their own engine and figuring the One Weird Trick of having thousands of sprite-based enemies on-screen at the same time. (As fans would later explain to them over and over again at industry events, they could have just used Clickteam Fusion and knocked it out in a couple of weeks.)

But the core mechanic of sidestepping massive swarms of monsters while your character auto-spams all your weapons at once the moment the cooldowns proc was fun enough that it started a whole new genre of video game. The industry hasn't quite settled on a unified name for it yet, but there have been many, many imitators, some of which really pushed the boundaries, concept, or polish of its simple, addictive gameplay loop.

As for the original developer, they received enough money from itch.io donations to polish and launch a much more expansive version on Steam. It was fawned over by letsplayers and became, by all accounts, a massive hit.

But none of the things that I've just said are my point.

My point is that Halo came out in 2001. It sold millions of copies at $60 a pop, turned the Xbox from an also-ran in that generation's Console Wars into the dominant player in the western market, and heralded the arrival of Big Business and rampant investor speculation into the AAA Gaming space.

And none of that shit stopped Vampire Survivors from being made, finding success, making money, or inspiring dozens of devs to create works in its vein.

The apocalypse that you prophesize has already come to pass, in non-adult gaming. It's called the arrival of Triple-A Games. And it didn't matter.* It did absolutely nothing to the indie game scene. If anything, AAA inspired hundreds of indie horror games when it declared the genre a non-starter because it wasn't profitable enough.

Indie video games are still a thing to this very day.

*(There was a thing called the Indiepocalypse a few years ago, which did matter a bit, but it was unrelated to AAA. And it didn't really destroy the indie scene, so much as it forced indies to start doing their own marketing.)

 

[Arisushi]

Spoiler

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(As someone who shares a pretty similar take on the topic) There's so much I would love to add to this. But duty calls. So, I'll TRY to keep it short.

For now, I'll just say that the AVN scene is definitely one of the most "beginner-friendly" spaces - with fairly frequent amount chances to become "visible" (every time one releases a new update).

Compared to say writing a book, or releasing a webtoon, or making a movie - it is a lot more easier to reach your target audience here.

And being purely community driven, AVN creators do not need the utterly frustrating (to me atleast) aspect of making the "right connections", keeping up "the standards", "dealing" with the suits, etc.

If the AVN scene ever became truly mainstream, the increased competition and the inevitable advent of corporate machine will definitely affect these two benefits (at least in some small degree).

HOWEVER, at the same time - I also think a mainstream AVN scene will not really "kill off" the small creators. We will just continue to live as the smaller subset of a bigger industry.

 

[Impious Monk]

For now, I'll just say that the AVN scene is definitely one of the most "beginner-friendly" spaces - with fairly frequent amount chances to become "visible" (every time one releases a new update).

Compared to say writing a book, or releasing a webtoon, or making a movie - it is a lot more easier to reach your target audience here.

And being purely community driven, AVN creators do not need the utterly frustrating (to me atleast) aspect of making the "right connections", keeping up "the standards", "dealing" with the suits, etc.

This was the attraction for me. I have zero fictional writing experience, but I was working on the plot for another (non-adult) story before I started my game even though I never really believed anyone would ever read it. When I discovered AVN's at the end of last year, I realized I could have an audience of thousands just by uploading a game to F95. I almost take it for granted months later, but going from "no one will read my story" to "thousands of people are reading my story" has been pretty incredible.

(Of course, I am grateful to certain people like jufot and badtimetales for giving shouts to my game at launch and helping it reach an even larger audience within the AVN community.)

 

[TranscendentThots]

I believe that I'm a good writer. I've certainly put the work in.

Holy crap. I just looked into your back catalogue. Even the preview renders scream understated class. Every shot is framed using the rule of thirds. Every pose looks bespoke. Every outfit looks like expertly-draped D-Force. You either had in-house animators or else thousands of dollars worth of Runtime to work with.

I realize that you've already linked to the threads yourself, but as a gesture of respect, can I get your official permission to actually play these? I want to figure out where the problem is.

It's definitely not writing or polish or composition or lack of vision, that's for sure.

 

[moskyx]

Holy crap. I just looked into your back catalogue. Even the preview renders scream understated class. Every shot is framed using the rule of thirds. Every pose looks bespoke. Every outfit looks like expertly-draped D-Force. You either had in-house animators or else thousands of dollars worth of Runtime to work with.

I realize that you've already linked to the threads yourself, but as a gesture of respect, can I get your official permission to actually play these? I want to figure out where the problem is.

It's definitely not writing or visual direction, that's for sure.

She is the writer (she is indeed a published writer, that's what she says that she is just not in the same league of those big names she mentions, because she has already tried) but Mortze is the 3D artist.

I don't think you need to ask for permission to play a bunch of free games. I think the 'problem' with Tlaero's games is the lack of proper animations, fetished content and megachad harem-building male MC's, and maybe a low marketing effort. Those games are made for a mature audience, not for your average horny teenager looking for a power fantasy and a quick relief.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Those games are made for a mature audience, not for your average horny teenager looking for a power fantasy and a quick relief.

Yeah, but I don't see why you couldn't do both. She said she wants to know "why" the female characters want to have sex with the MC. Not "no chads, no harem, no power fantasy."

Furthermore, if doing both isn't an option, I don't see why she couldn't just eschew the male audience, as a concept, and make an otome or a josei or a fujoshi or what-have-you. Make the woman the MC and the men the Love Interests. Go full yaoi if she feels like it. Advertise it where sexually liberated women hang out. Why not? What's stopping her?

Even if one assumes that straight men have more money or simpler tastes or whatever, surely competent porn made by women for women would sell better than porn designed "kind-of-for-mainstream-straight-male-tastes-but-not-really."

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, I'd like to see the data. It makes intuitive sense to me. Write what you know. Or at least what you like.

 

[moskyx]

Yeah, but I don't see why you couldn't do both. She said she wants to know "why" the female characters want to have sex with the MC. Not "no chads, no harem, no power fantasy."

Furthermore, if doing both isn't an option, I don't see why she couldn't just eschew the male audience, as a concept, and make an otome or a josei or a fujoshi or what-have-you. Make the woman the MC and the men the Love Interests. Go full yaoi if she feels like it. Advertise it where sexually liberated women hang out. Why not? What's stopping her?

Even if one assumes that straight men have more money or simpler tastes or whatever, surely competent porn made by women for women would sell better than porn designed "kind-of-for-mainstream-straight-male-tastes-but-not-really."

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, I'd like to see the data. It makes intuitive sense to me. Write what you know. Or at least what you like.

That's for her to answer, but I'll point out a few details you might not be aware of. First, she just makes the games she wants to make, and writes the stories she wants to write. She is not aiming at making this her full time job, for several personal reasons, so she changing her approach and style is just so not going to happen. She only wished they could get a bit more of exposure because all the money they earn goes to Mortze and, as you have already noticed, he is indeed a very talented artist who clearly deserves more praise. But he also has his own standards about what interest him and what he's willing to do (for instance, he's not comfortable creating gay content, so Yaoi is out of the table). In the end, they have found a formula and a work dynamic they are comfortable with, and that feeling is more important to them than anything else.

But in porn games, 'mainstream' is not exactly aligned with their vision. And of course this feels a bit unfair given the effort and quality of their work, but it doesn't mean they would want to change their trademark. At the same time, she is also experienced and old enough to know she just can't fight the overall trends, just keep doing what she does and try to learn and improve game after game to try and gain some more followers for her vision. I think people telling her that they have changed how they view their personal relationships after thinking about a situation in her games, or how those stories resonated with them, or how they enjoyed sharing them with their significant other, are enough success for her.

So I think her words are just a mere observation after being involved in this 'industry' since many years ago and having observed (and even led, in a way) its evolution, and how new devs and players and funding methods came and shaped the current market- at least, as perceived in this forum. This is not a scream for help from someone who doesn't know what to do to get more attention, and it doesn't come from envy or bitterness. It comes from someone who is acutely aware of her place, a place she wants to stay in. She's not asking for suggestions, but stating her own experience and how people are sometimes asking for imposible things, or for things that would automatically exclude them from this niche as a market they are hoping to use to make a living. Like in, are you writing a lewd story-based game and wished more really good writers were involved in this industry? Well, then you might loose your already precarious position if they actually decided to do so, because chances are you are worse than them. Or, are you creating a lewd game with actual gaming mechanics and wished most of players actually seeked that gaming experience and appreciated the work behind that creation? Well, then you might lose your position too if that actually happens, because you'd need to compete against real pros who would feel attracted to this niche and, again, chances are you are worse than them.

 

[boobsrcool]

this discussionjas taken a weird turn

Mad world dev says new update around beginning of december

for those that missed them,Isabella Dark Paths, The Bite, and Summers Gone have new updates out

 

[Tlaero]

Let me tell you about a video game called

You must be registered to see the links

. (Link is a free-to-play early version on itch.) It was made by a single developer who, honestly, didn't really know what they were doing at the time. Oh, don't get me wrong, their code was very clever. But they spent all their time the first year coding their own engine and figuring the One Weird Trick of having thousands of sprite-based enemies on-screen at the same time. (As fans would later explain to them over and over again at industry events, they could have just used Clickteam Fusion and knocked it out in a couple of weeks.)

Thank you for this. I had let Vampire Survivors pass me by, but I tried it last night and really enjoyed it. (Or, should I say, "Curse you for this" because I stayed up too late... )

As for permission to play my games, by all means!

Tlaero

 

[Tlaero]

That's for her to answer, but I'll point out a few details you might not be aware of. First, she just makes the games she wants to make, and writes the stories she wants to write. She is not aiming at making this her full time job, for several personal reasons, so she changing her approach and style is just so not going to happen. She only wished they could get a bit more of exposure because all the money they earn goes to Mortze and, as you have already noticed, he is indeed a very talented artist who clearly deserves more praise. But he also has his own standards about what interest him and what he's willing to do (for instance, he's not comfortable creating gay content, so Yaoi is out of the table). In the end, they have found a formula and a work dynamic they are comfortable with, and that feeling is more important to them than anything else.

But in porn games, 'mainstream' is not exactly aligned with their vision. And of course this feels a bit unfair given the effort and quality of their work, but it doesn't mean they would want to change their trademark. At the same time, she is also experienced and old enough to know she just can't fight the overall trends, just keep doing what she does and try to learn and improve game after game to try and gain some more followers for her vision. I think people telling her that they have changed how they view their personal relationships after thinking about a situation in her games, or how those stories resonated with them, or how they enjoyed sharing them with their significant other, are enough success for her.

So I think her words are just a mere observation after being involved in this 'industry' since many years ago and having observed (and even led, in a way) its evolution, and how new devs and players and funding methods came and shaped the current market- at least, as perceived in this forum. This is not a scream for help from someone who doesn't know what to do to get more attention, and it doesn't come from envy or bitterness. It comes from someone who is acutely aware of her place, a place she wants to stay in. She's not asking for suggestions, but stating her own experience and how people are sometimes asking for imposible things, or for things that would automatically exclude them from this niche as a market they are hoping to use to make a living. Like in, are you writing a lewd story-based game and wished more really good writers were involved in this industry? Well, then you might loose your already precarious position if they actually decided to do so, because chances are you are worse than them. Or, are you creating a lewd game with actual gaming mechanics and wished most of players actually seeked that gaming experience and appreciated the work behind that creation? Well, then you might lose your position too if that actually happens, because you'd need to compete against real pros who would feel attracted to this niche and, again, chances are you are worse than them.

This man knows what he's talking about. Thank you, Moskys.

Tlaero

 

[TranscendentThots]

This man knows what he's talking about.

So that's what they look like.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Thank you for this. I had let Vampire Survivors pass me by, but I tried it last night and really enjoyed it. (Or, should I say, "Curse you for this" because I stayed up too late... )

As for permission to play my games, by all means!

Tlaero

Oh, cool. Glad you enjoyed it. Sorry about your sleep schedule. I was just trying to make the broader point that AAA can coexist alongside indies.

(But if you liked Vampire Survivors that much, maybe also give

You must be registered to see the links

a cursory glance. They took the Vampire Survivors formula and really ran with it. Okay I'll shut up about SFW games now unless it somehow pertains to this industry.)

 

[realjitter]

I did catch up on a couple of games and also started to read a new one. Spoilers ahead?

1 - The Grey Dream

In this AVN you play some dude who has a job interview at some trading company. It's not really well explained what the MC's field of expertise really is. Is he an IT guy or something?, who knows. Anyhow, everything happens at lightning speed in this game and the task he's given by the company owner early on is just straight up ridiculous . To me the MC comes across as someone pretty green and somewhat incompetent, but here it feels like he'll become the CEO of the company within the 3 next chapters or whatever . Of course this is "just" a porn game and one might argue that it doesn't really matter and whatnot, but i personally couldn't get past the whole setup of the story. Kind of a bummer since it would've been easy to avoid all of that. Outside of that the game's pretty decent i guess. Good renders, good animations, okay"ish" dialogue, "Lots" of branching which is always nice to see. Wouldn't surprise me if i've missed like 25% of it's content. The lew scenes on the other hand, albeit having good animations, felt weirdly placed. I mean, i only came across one of them which was, i don't even know what happend there, a random gloryhole scene at a stadium late at night? . Yeah, as i said weird.. My favourite scene so far was the MC getting drunk with some random chick. That part was nicely done and had a realistic touch to it.

So overall nothing really stood out to me in this game, but it's not really bad either, far from it actually. Probably worth a shot if you're out of AVN's to read, but it wasn't really my thing (which doesn't say much). A for effort for sure

2 - Summer's gone

I don't know what it is with this AVN, but i ended up liking it better this time around than i did last time. The game still suffers, imo, from an way too overblown cast and the reason why people call this a slow burn is simply due to the fact that you advance so many storylines all at once. Most of them haven't even started yet so it'll become even worse later on. But yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how this game will look like, let's say 5+ chapters from now. Will it turn into a complete fuckfest or will the developer find a way to keep the balance and still has a story to tell?. Hard to predict i'd say, but that's one thing i find so interesting about this AVN. It's unpredictability. Other than that i still really enjoy visual aspect of the game. The developer is pretty good at creating all those dreamy, mellow, atmospheric situations & sceneries. Especially the night time ones are pretty cool. I'm not going to talk much about all the LI's since there isn't much to talk about yet. As of now there are 4 of them who have some progression (Nami, Bella, Vic & Mila). I only played the Vic route so far and it was cute i guess? We'll see. Honestly i have no real clue yet which route to take since it's still too early to tell. I'm generally speaking interested how the Sonya storyline is going to play out, but...who knows . I also noticed that for some reason this game has the femdom tag... So i guess that's always an option, for me at least...

All in all Summer's gone still remains one of the most ambitious projects on this site.

3 - Artemis

Yet another update i ended up liking way more than i thought i would. Well, not at the very beginning though because the conversations kept circling around the same topics over and over again. But over time i felt like the developer became more and more comfortable with his characters and his story again. I don't wanna get too much into it, but i wanna point out something that i really liked. Well, i'm not on the Kindra or June route. I'm still on the Reina path which isn't really a path yet, but whatever. But what i noticed is how the Developer starts planting the the seeds for a possible 3 people relationship (MC, June, Kindra)
That in itself isn't something special of course, but usually in AVN's those multi person relationships are portrait very poorly, to say the least. Most games just don't bother to connect the 2 females in those relationships and they just simply end being together for no real reason. Here it seems like we'll be getting a ,somewhat at least, proper setup for this..
So 2 big thumbs from me even though i'm not interested in that route...

MY favourite scene of the update was probably Zelda and the MC going to the movies. That was kinda cute. Also i imagine the whole Halloween party was a big pain in the ass to pull off, pretty impressive

4 - Isabella Dark Paths

Now we're talking Probably my favourite AVN at the moment next to Nothing is Forever (haven't read the latest update of NIF yet) & Our red string.

What makes it so good to me are several things. Most of all I like the MC here (something that's very rare for me) He doesn't lean too much towards a certain behaviour without being bland. That to me is quite an accomplishment. Another thing i really like is the pacing of the game. On one hand you have the relationship with Alex (if you choose to be with her) which concludes, for now at least, with the MC making a commitment to her. Which i thought was pretty cleverly done. It just creates a whole new layer of depth moving forward and it's also something that is shamelessly underused in other games imo. On the other hand we have Isabella who also clearly has chemistry with the MC. The way I interpret their relationship as of now is that she, to some degree, respects the relationship the MC and Alex have. Or at least she hesitates because of it until, well, until it becomes too much at some point....I'm generally speaking not all that interested in multi person relationships in AVN's. Mainly because the purpose of them often times isnt' the relationship itself and everything that comes with it. No, it's just used to have an easy way to squeeze in more lewd scenes without any real rhyme or reason. But here i'm actually a little curious how the developer intends to pull this off. Alex and Isabella don't have that much in common as of now and Alex also becomes pretty jealous when Isabella is around, for good reasons. So how does their relationship look like? Does Alex just simply gives the MC permission to have another girlfriend? I hope not . Time will tell i guess..



R.I.P Christine McVie

 

[badtimetales]

Does Alex just simply gives the MC permission to have another girlfriend?

Alex and simple?

 

[Éama]

Some of you think I'm a good writer (and I love you for it, thank you!) but I'm not even fit to shine the shoes of the real writers in this world. The only reason you folks have ever heard of me is because none of them would waste their time writing for such a small audience.

Tlaero

I'm not really part of this discussion so excuse me if I just pick up on one point that caught my eye.
There are extremely good authors who never reach a particularly large audience and who still write great novels. Martin and King are not the benchmark for great writing but for great selling in my opinion. I am an avid Stephen King reader but some of his novels are average at best. A 3* rating on f95 if I was to rate it.

Who would know Nnedi Okorafor if she didn't happen to win an award? Who would know her even though she won it? I don't think any author should ever be defined by their fame, but rather by whether their creation finds an audience.
Whether the audience ends up being small or large depends more on the needs and desires of the readers, and that in turn is something no writer can influence.
I have never read a novel of George R. R. Martin despite all his fame but I've read every book written bei Okorafor and every VN written by you and Mortze.