Recommending Story-first games

[Tlaero]

I hope you don't take this harshly. My advice is just one person's opinion, worth whatever you take from it. And, don't get me wrong. Your story isn't bad. The writing and dialog is easily better than a significant percentage of the VNs on F95. But I think you could substantially tighten the story up.

The classic story outline is:
MC gets stuck in a bear trap
MC tries to get out of the bear trap.
MC fails.
...
<repeat the "try/fail" cycle multiple times>
...
MC finally succeeds.

You've got Malady in a good bear trap--she's believably in over her head.
But while bad things are happening to her (some very bad), she's not really doing the "try/fail" thing. In reality, everything seems really easy.

Take the first job in New York.

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There was no try/fail. It was more like following directions on a map.

This continues.

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Even when bad things happen, they're somewhat easily resolved.

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I'm seeing some try/fail going on with the overarching story. But as you plot something like this out, I suggest thinking in terms of focusing on the bear trap and not spending as much time following the map. If you're brutally honest with yourself, how much story would be lost if you handled the entire New York job in a few sentences?

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Keep Malady's instincts/foreshadowing that this is going to end badly. Malady's internal dialog is really strong. But for the story you're telling, most of what you would have cut there was just a distraction from it.

I'm not suggesting you go back and throw out what you've already done. I do suggest that you think about this as you move forward on this story and especially as you're plotting out future ones.

Tlaero

 

[BeCe]

Even when bad things happen, they're somewhat easily resolved.

I've actually considered that. Massive spoilers ahead so you are warned:
Her lack of agency is the point of the first part of the story, someone is pulling her strings and she doesn't see it yet. There is a reason I picked LA as a setting, a lot of what she is going through is a bit of theatre. Someone is pushing her to discover what she discovers and see what she sees. My plan is that once she becomes aware of this she has to second guess everyone who has 'helped' her and the information she has gained so far.

how much story would be lost if you handled the entire New York job in a few sentences?

Besides introducing Ash and Malady, the New York scenes were about establishing a few things about Kadee, (again, story spoilers in here) that her intent in coming to New York was to kill herself after visiting her family one last time, her father was a police officer like Mal's dad which sets up the laptop password later, her sexuality and that she puts other people before herself (a key point in why she took her own life which you'll learn later on).
Now admittedly, I could fold a few of those things into the talent agency scenes but I wanted the focus to be more on Arturo and Erin who'll play larger roles later one.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Her lack of agency is the point of the first part of the story, someone is pulling her strings and she doesn't see it yet. There is a reason I picked LA as a setting, a lot of what she is going through is a bit of theatre. Someone is pushing her to discover what she discovers and see what she sees. My plan is that once she becomes aware of this she has to second guess everyone who has 'helped' her and the information she has gained so far.

Sorry for butting in from the peanut gallery. Just my 2 cents:

You could have her think or mutter some throwaway lines about how she's mildly annoyed that her usual go-to Option A wasn't available, so she's taking Option B instead. (Because in addition to showing her what they wanted her to see, the baddies have to also occasionally stop her from seeing hints of the truth that they don't.) Or how she thought things were going to be more difficult, so she planned ahead with a couple of different fallback plans for food or lodging or whatever, only for those plans to have been uneccessary. Or she thinks she's going to need to convince another character to part with information, so she thinks about their personality (or their job if they're a stranger,) and goes through in her head how she's going to convince them, only for them to cave immediately or be uncharacteristically helpful. Or you can switch it up and do all three.

This hangs a lampshade on the lack of challenge in the present moment, shows her being (relatably) annoyed when her agency is actually limited, and shows the reader that she's actually smart/personable enough to work her way around challenges that weren't actually present.

(Don't have her explicitly think about how it's odd that everything's falling into place, not even once. That would be too much foreshadowing. Just let the player get mildly anxious as they constantly keep a look out for something that will actually threaten, not just annoy, this clearly competent woman.)

Make these moments of non-problem-solving visual in a distinctive way, and maybe play a specific ambivalent music track every time it happens, maybe triggering the exact moment things go according to plan, and you can literally flash callback images on the screen during the big reveal while playing that song to make the player go "OH GOD THAT'S WHY NOBODY CHALLENGED HER AT THE START!" right before the explicit textual reveal of what had been going on.

The intuitive geniuses (or people who've lived through this sort of gaslighty scenario,) who would have picked up what you were putting down in this version get to nod in satisfaction and say "Yup, called it." The people who are a little slower on the uptake get escalating chances to notice before the big reveal so they can go "I KNEW IT!" And the people who didn't notice the plot creeping up on them at all get to go "Wait, WHAT!?" and have their minds blown on the second playthrough, now that they're in on the plot twist, and appreciate how many little details were there staring them in the face the whole time. It's Win/Win/Win.


Apologies if you were already doing this, but in a more subtle way. This is the exact level of subtlety needed to get through my thick head, personally. Consider playing this card if you would like to reach us here in the cheap seats in the back.

 

[BeCe]

Apologies if you were already doing this, but in a more subtle way. This is the exact level of subtlety needed to get through my thick head, personally. Consider playing this card if you would like to reach us here in the cheap seats in the back.

You're spot on with your suggestion, I do plan to add more internal monologue at various points to make certain things clearer and this could be one of them. But I'm anxious about giving too much away too soon, I was kinda waiting to see reactions to the reveal before changing things too much.

 

[noping123]

You're spot on with your suggestion, I do plan to add more internal monologue at various points to make certain things clearer and this could be one of them. But I'm anxious about giving too much away too soon, I was kinda waiting to see reactions to the reveal before changing things too much.

I will note - and you should take this with a grain of salt - any advice given, is going to be given through the lens of the personal tastes of the person giving it.

For example, if I were to advise you, I'd say you should either make things SO subtle it's almost impossible to catch on unless you REALLY take the time to dissect things, OR you should make it bluntly obvious - the sort where you're basically bashing people over the head with it.

I'd give that advice though because it's the style I, as a consumer, prefer.

I'm not saying you should ignore advice, quite the opposite, consider it all, but take in to account the context of the lens through which it's being given. Ultimately it's your story and you are the one who should be happy with it, not anyone else. (If other people are too, that's great! If they're not, that's unfortunate, but what can you do?), but as the author, you should IMO never be changing things because others told you it would be better, unless you personally can look at it and agree and say "Yep. You're right - that would be better."

 

[TranscendentThots]

You're spot on with your suggestion, I do plan to add more internal monologue at various points to make certain things clearer and this could be one of them. But I'm anxious about giving too much away too soon, I was kinda waiting to see reactions to the reveal before changing things too much.

The trick is to reveal things in stages, gradually adding more detail in each stage, until you reveal the truth to the audience explicitly exactly when you want all the characters to know about it. You're not even adding new information, necessarily, just gradually adding context to the information the reader already has.

The first layer is Just The Facts, Ma'am. This sounds like what you're doing right now. Sherlock Holmes could see the twist coming, but nobody else ever will. You will literally outsmart 99% of your audience if you write this way. And the problem with that is, there's no challenge to the character at first, so the audience feels like literally nothing is happening. You've fooled your readers too well. They think they're reading about normal daily life. So you have to make the journey interesting somehow, even if it means dropping a ton of red-herrings along the way. A random purse-snatching here, some bad weather there, a chance run-in with her rival from high school that goes nowhere but looked like it could have been the connecting thread. But then people will feel like you fooled them with bullshit writing about interesting but inconsequential details, not with the villain's plan being so smart. So I don't recommend this unless Sherlock Holmes is your target audience.

The second layer is the opposite of you fooling the reader. It's literally you throwing them a bone. Then a bigger bone. Then beating a drum with a giant t-rex bone moments before the explicit reveal. If you're good, you can disguise these contextual moments as playful banter, amusing non-sequiturs, or earnest attempts at world-building or character development. Just make the sentence that drops a hint also do something that services the story in a much more apparent way.

The third layer is for the person who can't quite figure out what's going on, but they have high emotional intelligence, or maybe they're capable of basic pattern recognition. "I know that song. That's the kinda ominous, faintly sad or wistful song that plays whenever things start going right. Why didn't they pick a happier tune? Wait, I remember talking to that guy. And missing that cab. Wait... oh, god, this person I'm talking to is the bad guy, aren't they? The game's about to reveal some kind of-- FUCK! I KNEW IT!" Save this shit for 5 minutes from the reveal. Up until you start showing the flashbacks, that's just a song about how sad life is, even when she's winning. Maybe a metaphor for depression or something. Who knows?

And the fourth and final layer, the explicit reveal, is the fail-safe. "Mauhaha, it was me all along pulling the strings. Now you're fucked." A brick could notice this plot twist. Anyone confused by the twist can go back and re-play the game and notice all the hints on the second pass and go "Holy shit, it was staring me in the face the whole time."

Do all 4 of them, and don't do them in the wrong order, and people will generally think your work is smart and isn't talking down to them no matter how long it takes them to notice the twist.

Right now, you're jumping straight from phase 1 to phase 4, and it feels like dead air because the plot is too sneaky for readers.

This is not the only way of entertaining readers with a slow-burn mystery, or even the best way. It's just a way that doesn't break no matter which level your audience is reading at. Sherlock Holmes feels more and more smugly superior the more evidence they see that they were right, and then they get to say I toldja so. Most readers get excited as they figure it out. Homer Simpson goes "Wow." At least he gets it.

Your goal is not to outsmart the readers. Your goal is to entertain the readers.

 

[BeCe]

Right now, you're jumping straight from phase 1 to phase 4, and it feels like dead air because the plot is too sneaky for readers.

Am I? I'm only in chapter 2, I still have a lot of ground to cover before I reveal anything too significant.

 

[TranscendentThots]

Am I? I'm only in chapter 2, I still have a lot of ground to cover before I reveal anything too significant.

Phase 1 is the wool over your character's eyes, as well as the audience's. Things have happened, but neither the character nor the audience realize that they have happened.

If your entire first chapter is pure wool, the story hasn't started yet. Hence, the suggestion that you could make Chapter 2 Chapter 1 and just add a paragraph at the front about how the wool has been pulled away from their eyes.

You don't necessarily need an earlier staged reveal. You just need conflict. And the two most obvious kinds of conflict I can think to add to a chapter of pure wool are Red Herrings or a Slow Staged Reveal. I personally prefer the latter. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Tlaero]

I've actually considered that. Massive spoilers ahead so you are warned:

I'm not going to read the spoilers because I'm planning to keep playing the game. If you're already on top of the feedback, though, that's cool.

Tlaero

 

[camube]

1thousand new game, cybernetic seduction is out. And free even for non-patrons.

I've always think, from Deliverance, that the weakest aspect of 1thousand games are it's stories. It's not that engaging to me. I guess it's a personal taste, but their game doesn't hook me. Which is a shame because the style of their games is really good.

They truly deserves more patrons but I wonder if their patreon number is a reflection of that too. Maybe if they have a writing partner or an editor their games would have far more patrons.

I really think, outside of the story, their games deserves at least 3x more patrons than the current number.

By the way, I just realized Our Red String and Good Girls Gone Bad is not in the first page recommendation.

I read this interview with Eva Kiss last week

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and it's said she's inspired by Mass Effect, which I think kinda showed because how we control Ian and Lean in ORS, affects how other characters fates too.

Honestly, there are very few games that is in active development in the AVN genre where I could say "when the next update of the game is out, I still want to play it, look forward to see it's continuation regardless of how long time passes and will make time to play it"

And Our Red String is in that category for me. The other game in this category is Deluca Family. Pale Carnations is the other one.

As much as I greatly enjoy Being a DIK, I seriously think given how long of a development cycle DPC is currently doing, if I don't have enough leeway to play games (any games not just AVN), I would probably drop everything but those three.

I was initially checking page one because I wonder whether Deliverance is listed or not before realizing Our Red String is not there.

Another game that isn't there that I think deserves to be there is Desert Stalker. Holy shit this game nails atmosphere.

I don't know if it's "story-first" but it's definitely atmosphere-first game.

I don't really do incest games. As in when I play those games I usually don't choose the incest options and Desert Stalker has somewhat unavoidable incest dialogue with the younger stepdaughter, but outside of that 1 niche, it's pretty perfect.

It's so high effort, there's like tons of non-adult scene animations and stuff, I honestly think the presentation is pretty amazing as a ren'py game.

if I were to summarize games that have unique point on this site, I would say:

Pale Carnation nail meticulous expressions

DeLuca Family has amazing writing

Our Red String has very wide small dialogue variances off of how we control our MCs

Desert Stalker nail it's atmosphere

Above the Clouds nail humor
*I would say Projekt Passion is very funny, but Above the Clouds just has it beat

That's pretty much it.

Honorary mention to BaDIK since it nails general appeal I guess.
To be fair, I greatly enjoy my time playing BaDIK.

That just leaves Caribdis and Tlaero as the 2 devs/writers whose games I haven't play. Which I'm looking forward to play.

 

[kotte]

We got a new release of A Moment of Bliss two days ago that I just had time to play.
And I can totally understand anyone who says it's disqualified from this thread, I mean it is definitely a case of "anyone the MC looks at, wants to shag him". All Lockheart's games so far has been a bit like that.

But there is something in the storytelling that really caches my eye. Each time I play an episode to the end, I find myself so unwilling to leave the world of the game, and for a couple of days afterwards my mind keeps thinking about it, coming up with alternative versions or possible continuations.

And that feeling is basically what I am looking for here...

 

[boobsrcool]

We got a new release of A Moment of Bliss two days ago that I just had time to play.
And I can totally understand anyone who says it's disqualified from this thread, I mean it is definitely a case of "anyone the MC looks at, wants to shag him". All Lockheart's games so far has been a bit like that.

But there is something in the storytelling that really caches my eye. Each time I play an episode to the end, I find myself so unwilling to leave the world of the game, and for a couple of days afterwards my mind keeps thinking about it, coming up with alternative versions or possible continuations.

And that feeling is basically what I am looking for here...

how much of it is from a first person view visually?

 

[TranscendentThots]

And I can totally understand anyone who says it's disqualified from this thread, I mean it is definitely a case of "anyone the MC looks at, wants to shag him". All Lockheart's games so far has been a bit like that.

But there is something in the storytelling that really caches my eye.

Just my two cents, but as the hack in the room, I feel compelled to point out that anything can make for a good story, as long as you put in the effort to give it the right blend of cool, relatable, and surprising elements. Because you know what else had an MC every woman wanted to bang? James Bond. Oh, not a fan of James Bond? Then you probably enjoyed that series that mercilessly lampooned James Bond, Archer, whose titular main character every woman also wanted to bang.

(I mean, neither franchise had an incest route, but you can sort of see the dotted outline of where one could have been slotted into Archer.)

Don't blame the tropes. Blame the writers! They took incest and promiscuity and somehow made them boring!

 

[kotte]

how much of it is from a first person view visually?

Nothing. Lockheart's games use a normal "movie" camera.
Perhaps since the MC is not the "clean slate" that we have discussed previously in this thread.

 

[EndlessNights]

We got a new release of A Moment of Bliss two days ago that I just had time to play.
And I can totally understand anyone who says it's disqualified from this thread, I mean it is definitely a case of "anyone the MC looks at, wants to shag him". All Lockheart's games so far has been a bit like that.

But there is something in the storytelling that really caches my eye. Each time I play an episode to the end, I find myself so unwilling to leave the world of the game, and for a couple of days afterwards my mind keeps thinking about it, coming up with alternative versions or possible continuations.

And that feeling is basically what I am looking for here...

I've heard Lockheart's games praised for their writing before so your post made me look his games up to remember why I've never played them. Well, let's just say that one look at the preview images was all it took to make me remember in a hurry. Even as a mostly story-focused AVN player, I'm just not quite at the point where I'm ready to play adult games that actively turn me off just yet. If I ever do get there, there's this one gay murder mystery that sounded kind of interesting that I'd play way before I'd play anything that overtly loli...unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.

More games need to have a toggleable "puritan mode." Wouldn't it be great if in addition to the usual "Is NTR avoidable?" posts we could also get a few "Are sex scenes avoidable?" and "Is nudity avoidable?" posts in the game threads as well?

 

[jufot]

Well, let's just say that one look at the preview images was all it took to make me remember in a hurry. Even as a mostly story-focused AVN player, I'm just not quite at the point where I'm ready to play adult games that actively and viscerally turn me off just yet.

I feel exactly the same about his incest games and I tried, I really did. He goes to some lengths to make it sound plausible and acceptable, but I just couldn't keep up with the mental gymnastics required to reach love is love, even if they are your underage daughters.

It is then quite ironic that one of my favourite games on this site is also by Lockheart. Penny for Your Thoughts is abandoned permanently on hold due to lack of mainstream interest, but it has an exceptional protagonist in Penny and the beginnings of a fairly unique story. Sadly, the game's thread is a prime example of the toxicity and skulduggery that awaits devs who dare to create something different.

Wouldn't it be great if in addition to the usual "Is NTR avoidable?" posts we could also get a few "Are sex scenes avoidable?" and "Is nudity avoidable?" posts in the game threads as well?

There are far too many games here that would be greatly improved by removing most, if not all, sex. Love of Magic comes to mind.

 

[boobsrcool]

Avoided ripples for a while due to the visuals finally gave it a shot. it's great.

According to dev new madworld update coming today or tomorrow

 

[Jaike]

I've played Sanguine Rose. It was ... fine? Definitely in the same vein as Bondmaids. Good, but not particularly memorable for me.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. I don't think Sanguine Rose had anywhere in its branches a cluster of problems like the "good route" in Book of Bondmaids, and I thought its inconsistencies also showed outside the good route. But I believe Book of Bondmaids IS a lot more subtle than Sanguine Rose and Karlsson's Gambit on the delicate subject of MC penis size, so that's a... plus... well technically a few inches minus, but you get the meaning...

I haven't tried Karlsson's Gambit yet. Looking at the screenshots in the game thread, I can't imagine there is an actual story there, but I'll take your word for it and give it a shot.

I thought I completed part 4 but turned out I only got halfway. You'd probably want to use the walkthrough to avoid the powerless sub branches and stay on a good path. You have to make a few evil choices to get enough power so the MC can actually make a difference but you don't have to compromise a lot even to stay on the most dominant paths. But the most dominant branches, where the male MC has the "highest" status, actually become an orgy pretty fast in the later episodes. So maybe aim for a rank like K6 or K7 at the end of the latest episode or try the K5 branches, that one also has a switch route I think. I bet you'll still get a few porny bits tho.

It certainly has a story, though it's dark and I can't guarantee you'll like it of course. It's about intrige over control over a company in a dystopian world. The good branches for the male MC is imo done pretty well and consistently for an alternative path in a very dark setting, for the female MC it feels less consistent. The game also executes perspective changes rather well, partly because its just a very consistent part of the story.

If you're worried about the preview images, I think I saw maybe 40% of the previews in my playthrough and under like 25% of the sex scenes in the previews. So while I think the dominant paths turn into a sex fest at the end, I don't think it's that bad yet.

There are far too many games here that would be greatly improved by removing most, if not all, sex. Love of Magic comes to mind.

Doesn't that game have a "monogamous" route? Okay, it's about "as true as you can" and there's still the chosen so I doubt it's 100% faithful. I think the arc with Emily is a bit tropey but not ridiculously tropey, and not super porny.

 

[camube]

Mad World is updated

https://f95zone.to/threads/mad-world-release-4-0-0-smoke-mob-games.55994/post-9687488

merry christmas everyone

 

[boobsrcool]

I'm looking for games that happen tragic things like Acting Lessons and Leap of Faith. Games that are deep. Games that cause two tears to flow in quick succession like in the death of Little Nell in Dickens's Old Curiosity Shop. Any suggestions?

dreams of reality
my bully is my lover
isabella dark paths
aoa academy
love of magic
a shot in the dark