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Recommending Story-first games

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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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The 'normal' ending was bittersweet... which is what life tastes like, if you live long enough. With a little wisdom, you start to understand that the sweet moments are that much more potent with a drop of something else. The bright moments are brighter with a bit of shade.
Indeed. This reminded me of another post of yours :)

I submit that 'post nut clarity' actually is a thing... but it's more the absence of 'pre nut fog.'

I'm less convinced that 'post nut epiphany' is a thing. In my experience it's more like: (1) whoooohooo, damn, I'm Superman! Yes! (2) kissing, cuddle, (3) gotta sleep now...zzzzzzzzz. :sleep: In other words, the post nut thought process lacks significant input from the frontal lobe.
That's very true, if you don't regret the sex! If you do, post nut clarity is very much a thing while your brain goes into overdrive trying to justify your actions and convince you why the whole thing wasn't a horrible, horrible mistake.

Though, admittedly, this is all historical on my end. Who knows what GenZ feel post sex :D
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
620
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That's very true, if you don't regret the sex!

Who knows what GenZ feel post sex :D
You are right: I stand corrected. I haven't had that experience for a loooooong time. But you are spot on. These days, I 'sleep the sleep of the just' in this area...

Does GenZ even do sex? That would explain some of the shit that gets posted on this site, anyway. :p:LOL:
 
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jufot

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May 15, 2021
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I haven't had that experience for a loooooong time. But you are spot on. These days, I 'sleep the sleep of the just' in this area...
Likewise, and is that an Elvis Costello reference? :)

Does GenZ even do sex? That would explain some of the shit that gets posted on this site, anyway. :p:LOL:
, they don't. Hopefully, some of the younger cohort of this thread can correct us :p
 

noping123

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Game Developer
Jun 24, 2021
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I just wanted to pop in real quick with a (premature) request.

I just released CH6 of Alive on patreon, which means it'll probably hit this site in a few weeks (if the past is any indication). Those of you who have played it keep an eye out for that, and let me know what you think - I uh.... I did some stuff in this chapter that I am REALLY curious what people think about, from a storytelling perspective.

Full disclosure - the stuff I dropped in CH6 I have been waiting a solid year to do, so I am especially curious what those who focus on story have to say about it. Suffice to say I've finally reached the point of telling the story I've wanted to tell, rather than building the story which is what I've done so far.

It's totally fine if you hate it or have issues with it or whatever - I'd want to know that too, but I'm definitely curious about this particular installment. So if those who are familiar with it could keep an eye out and lmk your thoughts when it does eventually drop, I'd very much appreciate it.
 
Feb 10, 2022
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So, Arisushi and JuniorTheJunior's One Night Stand has finally reached its end. I've written about it once or twice, but this latest chapter deserves its own post. Spoilers below.

---

First, the "normal" route.

After the previous episode, David and Elena finally make their way to a hotel. The place is cheap and shady, like David; and not very memorable, like a one night stand is supposed to be.

Stepping into the room, Elena is aware of what she wants, perhaps on a near-unconscious level, but she doesn't understand why. The why is what frustrates her so, and makes her question herself at every step. Why is she here, with a much older stranger, who readily admits he just wants to fuck her? The answers to that are hinted at throughout the game, but they evade her still.

> She simultaneously felt like a woman who was being lied to, while also being treated just right.

That right there is a one sentence summary of the entire game. It's this little dance they are having, of desire and passion, but also of manipulation and fear.

Meanwhile, David is also conflicted, but for a different reason. He knows this is nothing more than a one time encounter with a stranger, and has to resist the temptation of trying to make it something more. His inner conflict is palpable.

> A part of him wanted to follow and join her.
> But that was not what tonight was about.
> Not for her.

After the act, they both find what they were looking for - clarity. Elena, having achieved her goal, moves to leave. David is melancholic, but tries to do the right thing.

D: I won't forget tonight for a long, long time. But YOU should.
E: Aren't you the guy who said this night was to be remembered forever?
D: Well... Maybe I just realized YOU don't need these kind of memories as a crutch to live your life. So forget everything.

I felt this was true to life. An older, lonely, and troubled man like David has much different expectations from a night like this than Elena, who is so young, vibrant, and full of life. The temptation to ask her to stay is immense, but he knows that wouldn't be the right thing for her, so he lets her go. It was all quite touching and beautiful!

Alas, this route also contains my first and only criticism of the game - the epilogue. I'm not a fan of epilogues. They almost always cheapen the story and are used as narrative clutch for a Hollywood-esque happily-ever-after ending. It's not quite that here, but it's close. I feel the game would have ended on a much higher note at the hotel.

---

Now, the "corruption" route. I use scare quotes because that's not exactly what's going on, not in an AVN sense. But it's what the devs use, so let's stick to that.

> Altruistic as his words were, his strong grasp on her shoulders told a completely different story.

Like I said in my previous post, the theme of this route is David's repulsiveness, teetering on the edge of acceptability, and Elena's scared and excited submission to him. Even the most sweetly of his words are calculated and disturbing. The game is relentless with its infliction of tension here. Both to Elena, and to the player.

Apropos, the sex scene is very different from the other route. It's much more violent (though, crucially, not rapey) and focused on David's urge to use and consume Elena. We get hints that, for him, this is a reenactment of a previous encounter, which is yet another disturbing point in a night full of them.

Post nut clarity is a thing on this route as well, but differs quite significantly. Elena realizes that she was looking for liberation, to violate her own boundaries and become someone else, just for a night. The whole experience was degrading for her, but as long as it's limited to this one night, she can make peace with it.

On the other hand, David's aim is much darker. He is not satisfied by merely having used her body. He wants to mark her, damage her. Not physically, but mentally, and he gets quite frustrated when he realizes he can't read her reaction. How could he let her go if he doesn't know if it worked?

Elena leaves hurriedly, not willing to spend another second with him. In a bone chilling scene, he runs after her and catches her at a bus stop, in the rain, all alone, in the middle of the night, and the curtain falls.

Now that, is a much stronger ending than the other one. Thoroughly repulsive, but very well done.

---

I'll end this like my other posts, with some of my favourite screenshots from the chapter. Thank you Arisushi and JuniorTheJunior for your amazing work, you've really created something special here

View attachment 2186984 View attachment 2186990 View attachment 2186995 View attachment 2186997 View attachment 2186998 View attachment 2186999 View attachment 2187000 View attachment 2187001
Thank you for always coming in with the in-depth reviews, and for the extensive support and encouragement that you (and everybody else in this thread) gave us during the development. Knowing that there would be people who'd appreciate all the detail, genuinely made working on ONS just much more enjoyable for us.

Sorry if the "normal" route's ending wasn't quite what you wanted, hopefully it didn't take too much out of the experience for you!
 

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
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Sorry if the "normal" route's ending wasn't quite what you wanted, hopefully it didn't take too much out of the experience for you!
Not at all, it was a minor blip on an otherwise excellent game. I'm looking forward to your future creations :)
 

camube

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2022
1,352
1,228
Thank you for always coming in with the in-depth reviews, and for the extensive support and encouragement that you (and everybody else in this thread) gave us during the development. Knowing that there would be people who'd appreciate all the detail, genuinely made working on ONS just much more enjoyable for us.

Sorry if the "normal" route's ending wasn't quite what you wanted, hopefully it didn't take too much out of the experience for you!
I'm looking forward to your next project. The game's story is not really for me, but the art was good though. It's still unfortunate that it couldn't find more backers. Hopefully things are better for your next project!
 
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mr.AwesomeGameTaste

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
1,190
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Thank you for always coming in with the in-depth reviews, and for the extensive support and encouragement that you (and everybody else in this thread) gave us during the development. Knowing that there would be people who'd appreciate all the detail, genuinely made working on ONS just much more enjoyable for us.

Sorry if the "normal" route's ending wasn't quite what you wanted, hopefully it didn't take too much out of the experience for you!
are you both working on the next game as well?
 
Feb 10, 2022
57
436
Not at all, it was a minor blip on an otherwise excellent game. I'm looking forward to your future creations :)
That's a relief, and thank you very much! I am extremely excited to share the new game when it's ready.

are you both working on the next game as well?
We are not, unfortunately, however we are both working on our separate projects (that you can read more about on the ).

I'm looking forward to your next project. The game's story is not really for me, but the art was good though. It's still unfortunate that it couldn't find more backers. Hopefully things are better for your next project!
Thanks so much! I'm glad you liked the art.
The next project is perhaps going to be a little more "main-stream" compared to ONS, if you want to call it that. A little more appealing to the audience of this forum, while also trying hard to maintain the balance with a (hopefully) engaging story and simple gameplay.

Even though the main idea of the story has been on my mind for close to 3-4 years now, it is still in early development and I would like to take my time with this planning part, so it may be a couple of months before things start rolling, but I'm very excited to finally be working on it and show it to everyone.
 
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Gwedelino

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Game Developer
Sep 4, 2017
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I do think devs can get a lot of good advice/suggestions/feedback on their games from this site, both on the pages for their games and on general topic threads like this one. To really take advantage of this aspect of the community a dev needs a thick skin, humility, and the wisdom to see what's good advice and what isn't. But in responding to criticism a dev also has to be diplomatic in order to maintain a good reputation in the community. Probably one of the keys to maintaining your sanity as a dev on F95 is being able to emotionally filter out the unhelpful comments.

I'm going to go off on a little bit of a tangent here.

One of the big differences between writing an AVN and being a legit professional fiction writer is having your work reviewed by other professionals before it gets published. Whether it's your publishing company's editor or the person who is directing the script for the episode of television you wrote, having the extra eyes on your work makes a big difference. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of AVN devs don't have a professional editor and, frankly, it shows. And I'm not talking about grammar and spelling errors. Even the best written AVN's have issues with plotting, pacing, character development, etc. that could be fixed with the help of a professional editor.

For example, Brandon Sanderson said that when he was trying to get Elantris published his editor told him, essentially, that he needed to rewrite it so that each chapter was presented from the point of view of a single character. What would have happened if he would have just self-published it without ever getting that advice? He'd still be a good writer and Elantris would still be a good story, but it wouldn't have been presented as well as it could have been.

What I would love is to sit down with a professional screenwriter consultant or book editor and lay out my entire story from start to finish and ask, "Okay, what's wrong with it?" Worries about pacing, themes, and character development aside, I live in terror that I'll release an update and the community will immediately pounce on some plot hole that completely breaks the entire story.

But it is what it is. Like I said, F95 does have a lot of good insight/suggestions, and there have been quite a few improvements I've made to my game based on feedback I've gotten from the community. This thread in particular should be required reading for anyone who wants to produce a story-driven AVN.
Another big problem I will add is that many devs give way too much power to their audience.

It can easily be seen through Patreon or Subscribstar for which a lot of devs create one or several specific tiers to give voting power to their patrons.

If you're a professional writers, you're not supposed to ask after completing a chapter what people want to see in the next one.

But a lot of devs are doing this and it's clearly not helping their story.
 
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Hahn1900

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Jan 3, 2021
1,487
3,330
Another big problem I will add is that many devs give way too much power to their audience.

It can easily be seen through Patreon or Subscribstar for which a lot of devs create one or several specific tiers to give voting power to their patrons.

If you're a professional writers, you're not supposed to ask after completing a chapter what people want to see in the next one.

But a lot of devs are doing this and it's clearly not helping their story.
Yeah but most of those DEVs doesnt have a planned Story from start to the end anyways.... there are tons of games with a good setup, great start and really great starting story... and after a while you can notice, that they start to wing everything later on, cause they dont have a plan for the whole thing.

DEVs with a plan from start to the end dont change their storytelling and game that much in favor of patrons... well some do just add things to the game, making it bigger than the original plan was, but stick to their main plot...

But the majority of DEVs just dont have planned out their story and game, and you can clearly see that after a while... some games will just drag on and on moving around in circles. Others will get dropped cause the DEVs hit a wall and dont know how to go on anymore or they stark milking...

If a game gets more than one update without making real progress for the main-stroyplots and only adding sub-plots or adding distracting things, than its a clear sign the DEV is hitting a wall and dont know how to go on anymore or that he wants to drag out the game so the game goes on longer and he can make easy money without starting a new project. If i can sense that, its time to move on and come back 2 years later to the project maybe. Intertwined is a prominent example for that now... in the last couple updates the game went in circles without mentionable progress in any direction. But overall, this is the case for nearly every game that has more than 18 months development time. And there are really some great gems under those, but they start to get stuck. Which is a shame... But its not an easy task to write a complete storyboard and stick to it...

Most DEVs just start out of nowhere with a starting idea and thinking to themselfs "oh great, i'll make a game out of it" and along the ride they realize "hm... what now?" and thats it.
 
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camube

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2022
1,352
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I played a game earlier this week called Desire of Fate where I think that game really has it's pacing down pat. I was really surprised when I realized how much I enjoy reading the game.

Normally I don't like VNs with big amount of characters because it leads to less screen time per characters but this game managed to make 1) almost every scene move the story forward, and 2) make characters distinguishable from one another.

Without directly drawing comparisons to multiple other story-first games in page one, I would just say number 2 is very rare for me. I think the game is very good in that 2 aspect, especially pacing. Dev a genius.

If deserves more patrons because the story is engaging,
this game deserves more patrons because the pacing is great. In addition to the characters being very different from one another despite their extremely limited screen time per character.

As far as the game's visual goes, Arson Betrayal does look better than Desire of Fate but, in general Honey Select games lighting doesn't look as good as DAZ games. Pale Carnations being the rare exception.

I don't know whether Desire of Fate is qualified to be put into page 1's story-first games list but it certainly does warrant more patrons

Speaking of games that I think is qualified to be put on the list of story-first games both Arson Betrayal and does warrant it, especially Projekt Passion I would say.

Also played Chasing Sunsets last weekend and I would say, it's probably be a more immersive game to me if the "compete option" is just not available to begin with, given the lead characters backstory.

As much as a player and a person I would rather compete with Jaye, the whole backstory of Alex and Jaye makes the idea of them "competing" not makes any sense.

I asked in Chasing Sunsets thread how other players rationalize Alex competing with Jaye, and despite using that rationalization and playing an Alternate Compete path, at least so far 6 Chapters in, the "compete path" is not interesting either.

Honestly might as well not be there. Alex and Jaye are way too "giving with each other" from the time they were kids until the beginning of the game to selfishly screw the other one under the bus.

I don't know. It's a good story. It's actually a better "Intertwined", so to speak. Intertwined aim to be this Telenovella-type VN, and I think Chasing Sunsets manage to do it better for my taste. Also probably because Chasing Sunsets has less characters.

I actually run out of games to play other than Eternum for now. The only non-medieval story-first games (that is not abandoned) that I haven't play is just Eternum or Tlaero's list of games.
 

Impious Monk

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Game Developer
Oct 14, 2021
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Does GenZ even do sex? That would explain some of the shit that gets posted on this site, anyway. :p:LOL:
Without wanting to be critical of any other devs' games, I have to comment that there is so much sad truth in this. Too many lewd story writers apparently haven't got the first clue how to be sexually assertive with a woman. There's an unending stream of story progressions that go, "I'm MC, I'm just minding my own business and wow, this woman is hitting on me, and wow, she wants to have sex with me, and holy cow I'm having sex!" Bruh....
 

noping123

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jun 24, 2021
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Without wanting to be critical of any other devs' games, I have to comment that there is so much sad truth in this. Too many lewd story writers apparently haven't got the first clue how to be sexually assertive with a woman. There's an unending stream of story progressions that go, "I'm MC, I'm just minding my own business and wow, this woman is hitting on me, and wow, she wants to have sex with me, and holy cow I'm having sex!" Bruh....
I feel personally attacked.
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
620
1,081
I just wanted to pop in real quick with a (premature) request.

Full disclosure - the stuff I dropped in CH6 I have been waiting a solid year to do, so I am especially curious what those who focus on story have to say about it. Suffice to say I've finally reached the point of telling the story I've wanted to tell, rather than building the story which is what I've done so far.
I am about to drop off the thread for several weeks due to a long, long work-related trip -- including a stint that is entirely off grid. But I promise to get to this after I return in mid-December, noping. Your work deserves careful attention, so I'm really looking forward to it.
 
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Raife

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May 16, 2018
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I feel personally attacked.
I _keep_ trying to explain the facts of life to jufot, but for some reason he doesn't accept that females on planet earth behave like female LIs in most porn games on this site. Sounds like Impious is just as bad! It's hopeless.

[Speaking seriously, now: One of my favourite 'jufot educates the masses' moments was when he patiently explained to a no doubt incel F95 punter that oral sex was, in fact, sex. After several objections from said local worthy, jufot observed very politely and diplomatically that the first clue was in the term itself. The whole exchange was a thing of beauty... although its aesthetic sublimity had a sort of 'sunrise on Mars' quality. :cool:]
 

Impious Monk

Active Member
Game Developer
Oct 14, 2021
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I am about to drop off the thread for several weeks due to a long, long work-related trip -- including a stint that is entirely off grid. But I promise to get to this after I return in mid-December, noping. Your work deserves careful attention, so I'm really looking forward to it.
I'm not gonna ask what you're doing, but I'm imagining an Indiana Jones style adventure complete with dart traps, monkey brains, and a whip.

Have a good trip!
 

kotte

Member
Feb 11, 2018
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One of my favourite 'jufot educates the masses' moments was when he patiently explained to a no doubt incel F95 punter that oral sex was, in fact, sex.
I seem to remember a certain president of a north american country who insisted the he "did not have sex with that woman", even though oral sex was involved. I suppose he too could have benefited from Jufot's explanation...
 

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
1,562
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I seem to remember a certain president of a north american country who insisted the he "did not have sex with that woman", even though oral sex was involved. I suppose he too could have benefited from Jufot's explanation...
If I remember it correctly, there was a Clinton reference in that discussion :D
 

Raife

Active Member
May 16, 2018
620
1,081
I'm not gonna ask what you're doing, but I'm imagining an Indiana Jones style adventure complete with dart traps, monkey brains, and a whip.
As you may recall, when the two gentlemen from Military Intelligence ask Indy where they can find Professor Ravenwood, he replies... "[]".
 
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5.00 star(s) 8 Votes