Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

I think Tlaero's advice is right on and matches what I've found to be true in life in general. Keep moving forward and learning as you go. Focus on gradual improvement over the long haul, not unachievable perfection.

I find Tlaero's recommendation more compelling and true to my own experience. However, the appropriateness of the advice, in this case, may depend on the idiosyncratic qualities and particular circumstances of the dev in question. Noping's guidance might be much more appropriate for some devs.

Switching tacks, slightly, one of the other things that I dislike intensely about player interactions with devs on this site is the reflexive assumption, among some players, that a dev's decision to redo or repolish a section of their game is a scheme to 'milk' their patreons. Players who float that accusation usually offer zero support for their claims; I find it particularly nauseating when directed at devs like Nyx, who clearly care intensely about their creative vision and their supporters.

Lazy, ignorant assumptions of bad faith seem to be the way of the world, these days. One of the things that I love about this thread is that that's not the way people behave, here. We may disagree, but we always do so in good faith and in a friendly spirit.

 

[Raife]

Zero End seems pretty decent. It has a young adult novel vibe dealing with the occult and a "school for gifted children" type of scenario. Yea, not the most original premise, but the focus does seem to be on the mystery surrounding the school and MC's past. Different routes give you insight into different characters. It's a nice first release and would probably appeal to many folks here.

Interesting... thanks for sharing. It seems a bit Harry Dresden-esque. Plus, the dev says that it's not a harem game, which bodes well on the story-first side of things. I'll watch as it develops.

 

[camube]

to 'milk' their patreons.

While i think people do have the right to have opinions, the more i see this opinion posted, mostly with regard to BaDIK, the more I think it's funny how loud the criticism is. I see the same people talking repeatedly about BaDIK delays and that it's milking. The problem with people repeating that same opinion is, if they are a patron, they can just stop giving money to DPC.
And if they are not a patron, why are they repeatedly mad over DPC's status updates and delay. Like bruh, you're not paying, sit your ass down and wait.

I mean, i get posting once or twice, i don't get posting almost every update just to say DPC should have hired more people and the reason DPC doesn't is because milking. Well DPC is not milking you, just wait.

 

[jufot]

Zero End seems pretty decent. It has a young adult novel vibe dealing with the occult and a "school for gifted children" type of scenario. Yea, not the most original premise, but the focus does seem to be on the mystery surrounding the school and MC's past. Different routes give you insight into different characters. It's a nice first release and would probably appeal to many folks here.

Thanks for the recommendation!

The porny bits were disappointing. Why are all the women ready to jump the forearm-sized dick of this emo virgin within ten minutes of meeting him? The game is hinting towards a magical explanation, which is just trite.

Still, story wise, it was a strong start. The worldbuilding seems well-thought-out and I feel invested. The ending introduced many more questions than it answered, which is a good thing for a first chapter.

Caleb is in the dark on many things, and the player is even more so, which is just delightful. He also gives off major Constantine vibes (the film, not the comics). I like his misanthropy. "My fuck off aura must be malfunctioning today" was an excellent line, as was him naming the dumb jock "Muscle Hypertrophy"

Brandon reminds me of the sidekick guy from BaDIK, but at least he's not a total loser. I like that he's the experienced fighter and not Caleb.

The thing I'm most curious about, though, is the scene with the Jeanette Voerman looking girl sitting on the lamp post. Who is that?

 

[realjitter]

I see the same people talking repeatedly about BaDIK delays and that it's milking.

Well, regardless of what people think about Ba"Tweener" . I think it's pretty obvious to see that this guy's a total workhorse. I don't even wanna know how many hours he/she spends every week with developing this game. People also seem to forget that all of this is an ongoing creative process, porn or not... You can't just demand that the developer blurts out his content like it's the most common thing ever. There're just so many things to consider with a big project like BaDIK while at the same time trying to maintain the overall quality at a steady level. All that being said though, milking is of coure a thing on this site. We're talking porn here. Well, Porn + money to be precise. So you'd have to be pretty naive to think that people wouldn't try to take advantage of some horny boys here. It's the perfect environment to do so imho...

 

[desmosome]

Thanks for the recommendation!

The porny bits were disappointing. Why are all the women ready to jump the forearm-sized dick of this emo virgin within ten minutes of meeting him? The game is hinting towards a magical explanation, which is just trite.

Still, story wise, it was a strong start. The worldbuilding seems well-thought-out and I feel invested. The ending introduced many more questions than it answered, which is a good thing for a first chapter.

Caleb is in the dark on many things, and the player is even more so, which is just delightful. He also gives off major Constantine vibes (the film, not the comics). I like his misanthropy. "My fuck off aura must be malfunctioning today" was af excellent line, as was him naming the dumb jock "Muscle Hypertrophy"

Brandon reminds me of the sidekick guy from BaDIK, but at least he's not a total loser. I like that he's the experienced fighter and not Caleb.

The thing I'm most curious about, though, is the scene with the Jeanette Voerman looking girl sitting on the lamp post. Who is that?

I though the first scene would be problematic, but it's part of her character. You learn more about it if you do her route (she stays behind after the drinking game).

As for the other girls, the fairy and fighter girls show interest when you do their routes. There certainly seems to be some "chosen one" thing happening, which can be tropey, but it's presented as part of the core mystery which remains interesting enough so far.

I think the game being non-harem with different information being uncovered on different routes makes for a promising story that rewards your choices. It's the first release, so we'll have to see how it develops though.

Spoilers for the different routes I tried.
The white haired girl is a half Succubus or something. She has a split personality. One is the assertive, brash, temptress. The other side is a sweet girl who is conflicted about her horny nature. But she insists that it isn't a possession. They are both "her." And the two sides are not at war with each other. The succubus side wants whats best for both of them and insist the MC treat her other side nice and never hurt her.

The fighter girl has a long and extensive event if you get on her route. I didn't actually read through the whole thing and mashed spacebar to see where it goes. But prior to her "main event" I did engage with her a bit to learn about her motivations. She was the top of the class in terms of grades and also the best fighter. The MC comes in as the top student and takes her spot. He can also beat her in a fight if you pick the war goddess as patron deity. That kinda gets her interested in him. After that, if you get on her route proper, she stay behind after the drinking game and there is a long walk in the park and some conversation that I didn't read yet because I didn't want to do that route currently.

The fairy girl is some type of oracle. If you visit her in the library, she will say some oracle things. She is in love with the MC because she probably sees the future where she loves him. The MC can also do some divination and sees some ominous crossroads in her future, basically spelling out that the MC's actions will either save or break her (and she knows this too).

The black haired girl in the library. She is another mage like the MC. I didn't read her convo in the library yet though.

Then there is the ex-gf route. The girl who resembles the ex, as we learned at the end actually is the ex-gf. We can only really speculate on what happened between them at this point. Doing her route (no one stays behind after drinking game) doesn't really reveal anything more than what we learn from the common plot, just that the MC doesn't feel anything for this girl who resembles his ex.

Basically, what I liked about the storytelling was the fact that the route design didn't seem "porn-gamey." One thing that can get a bit artificial in these games is presenting all the girls as potential suitors and then letting the player pick their girl. You get their whole backstory and some initial flirting while playing the field, and then you grace the girl you deem worthy with your affection. In this game, you get almost no information on some of the girls unless you try to get to know them more. To be fair, it's only the first release, and I don't expect all the characters to be veiled in mystery as the story progresses, but the first impression was quite good.

 

[Raife]

Why are all the women ready to jump the forearm-sized dick of this emo virgin within ten minutes of meeting him? The game is hinting towards a magical explanation, which is just trite.

It's obviously the dickichorians, jufot... I mean, DUH!

They surround us, and bind us, and hold the galaxy together (on the MC's forearm-sized dick.)

 

[noping123]

It's obviously the dickichorlians, jufot... I mean, DUH!

They surround us, and bind us, and hold the galaxy together (on the MC's forearm-sized dick.)

Well.

We can add dickichorlians to the ever-growing list of things I never thought I'd hear in my life.

 

[Deleted member 3917737]

Well DPC is not milking you, just wait.

So. if you know full well that a Dev is milking people, you'd be fine with that because it's not happening to you? I guess that shows me, and everyone else, the kind of person you are. No wonder these Devs get away with the milking and such. Most people that are on here have your mindset.

 

[boobsrcool]

So. if you know full well that a Dev is milking people, you'd be fine with that because it's not happening to you? I guess that shows me, and everyone else, the kind of person you are. No wonder these Devs get away with the milking and such. Most people that are on here have your mindset.

I think the players do most of the milking and such

 

[Deleted member 3917737]

I think the players do most of the milking and such

Mmm, well said lol.

 

[moskyx]

So. if you know full well that a Dev is milking people, you'd be fine with that because it's not happening to you? I guess that shows me, and everyone else, the kind of person you are. No wonder these Devs get away with the milking and such. Most people that are on here have your mindset.

Yeah, adult and mature people tend to think similarly when it comes to other people's money. A dev has all the right to 'milk' their creation the way they see fit, and the people paying them also have all the right to stop doing so the moment their interests don't align anymore. I'm nobody to tell anyone when to stop paying for something they still like, basically because I don't really know why are they paying to begin with. Do they pay because they expect a faster update, or it's because they just want to show their appreciation for the dev's past work? And honestly, unless you have actual proof or direct access to the dev's mind and computer, you can't accuse anyone of milking (as in knowingly lying and misleading their patrons about their actual work on the project). At most, we can say that, in our opinion, the time spent between updates doesn't match the results of that alleged work according to our own standards. Anything else is extremely unfair and hurtful to the whole community.

Note that most of the 'milking' accusations come when a dev doesn't deliver what some player considers the expected outcome of the dev's job, but in fact this only means that both the dev and the player have different ideas of what a proper outcome is, and there's also a clear asymmetry here: the dev does know the effort they are putting into their game, but the player can only take a wild assumption based on their experience with other devs or with this same dev in a different moment of the development process (so not really a good indicator either since complexity varies and sometimes life happens). If the player is not happy with what they are getting, that's enough to justify this player's choice of not supporting the dev, but nothing more.

 

[Deleted member 3917737]

If the player is not happy with what they are getting, that's enough to justify this player's choice of not supporting the dev, but nothing more.

Thank you for the thoughtful response :3 That was something new, and good, for a change.

"A dev has all the right to 'milk' their creation the way they see fit"

If that's how they feel, they shouldn't be a Dev in the first place. It shouldn't be about "milking" anything. It should be about what you want to do with your game/life (or w/e else you use patreon for)

It's kinda like saying "A Killer has all the right to kill their fans the way they see fit" I don't know lol the way you said it just, made me think negative. I wouldn't want a Dev like that to be around.

What bothers me is that these Devs hide regular posts, like this "Hey, woke up, went to the bathroom, I had a pee, took a shit, ate breakfast, the end. Want to see what I wrote? $2-10+ bucks or hidden posts about the game's status/update. Doesn't that bother you? or make you question, why are they hidden in the first place? if it isn't to get more money from people?

There is no reason for half of the stuff they post to be hidden behind a paywall. Now, I don't know if a person, who is a sub, can still see those posts? or do they have to pay again? If it's for the non-subbers, again, why are those hidden?

If they want to hide their image posts (when they release wallpapers etc) that's fine and understandable.

Some of these subs are children. They clearly can't think straight. Too horny to think straight. So, if I can help them see the light, to help them not be blinded, I will try my best. I know how it feels to be so into the thing you like that, you end up blinded and paying for it in the end.

I know, it's their money, but if I can help them save some or give it to the Devs who actually deserve it, I will try.

 

[moskyx]

Thank you for the thoughtful response :3 That was something new, and good, for a change.

"A dev has all the right to 'milk' their creation the way they see fit"

If that's how they feel, they shouldn't be a Dev in the first place. It shouldn't be about "milking" anything. It should be about what you want to do with your game/life (or w/e else you use patreon for)

It's kinda like saying "A Killer has all the right to kill their fans the way they see fit" I don't know lol the way you said it just, made me think negative. I wouldn't want a Dev like that to be around.

What bothers me is that these Devs hide regular posts, like this "Hey, woke up, went to the bathroom, I had a pee, took a shit, ate breakfast, the end. Want to see what I wrote? $2-10+ bucks or hidden posts about the game's status/update. Doesn't that bother you? or make you question, why are they hidden in the first place? if it isn't to get more money from people?

There is no reason for half of the stuff they post to be hidden behind a paywall. Now, I don't know if a person, who is a sub, can still see those posts? or do they have to pay again? If it's for the non-subbers, again, why are those hidden?

If they want to hide their image posts (when they release wallpapers etc) that's fine and understandable.

Some of these subs are children. They clearly can't think straight. Too horny to think straight. So, if I can help them see the light, to help them not be blinded, I will try my best. I know how it feels to be so into the thing you like that, you end up blinded and paying for it in the end.

I know, it's their money, but if I can help them save some or give it to the Devs who actually deserve it, I will try.

When I talk about devs having the right to milk their creation, I'm obviously not using the word in the sense you felt it allowed you to make that outlandish comparison with killing someone. It was ironic. That's why I used 'milk' (please note the ' ' ) and not milk. What I mean is that they have all the right to work at their own pace, to have a life outside the game's development, and if they can stretch a comfortable position for a few weeks more, more power to them. Isn't it what we all wish for our jobs? Since this is considered 'milking' for some people like you, I used your terminology. That obviously doesn't mean that I condone ill practices we all know. About the ones you mentioned, well, it depends. Again, that's just your view, but some other people do want to know dev's life in detail to feel more close to them or to evaluate their pledge. I don't really need that, other than some periodic updates about how work is going. This forum allows me to test the product before deciding to support the dev, so if I like what I see I may throw a few bucks to that dev, and that allows me to judge if I want to keep supporting them in the long run. If those hidden posts you mention are the norm and no real and reliable info about the game's development is given, then I'll probably stay away from that dev, but again, that's just me.

Anyway, I don't think this is the best thread for your holy crusade to save those poor souls' money.

 

[Deleted member 3917737]

Anyway, I don't think this is the best thread for your holy crusade to save those poor souls' money.

I didn't really sleep well lol and all of this back and forth with "Dev is milking blah blah blah" eh, trying to do good is such a drag

You're right... I am fighting a battle that may never be won... especially by myself. Anywho, thanks for the chat (stalkers, thank you for, stalking) I need a break. Bye and have a nice day

 

[camube]

So. if you know full well that a Dev is milking people, you'd be fine with that because it's not happening to you?

Being a patron is our choice, stop doing it is also our choice. Milking the game is the devs choice.

Independent of what the devs decides to do, people can start and stop patreon whenever they decide.

 

[desmosome]

What I don't get is why people are so invested in how other people spend their money. As long as it doesn't harm other people in a clear way (like funding a terrorist organization or something), people can spend their money however they see fit.

Of course, society tries to clamp down on clear cases of fraud, but that's a case by case situation. Why does Scientology exist? Why do people buy diamonds when its entire market, from the demand to supply, was manipulated by a single company? Why are MLM and pyramid schemes able to run rampant? These are more scammy and large scale than some dev milking their porn game. You can't hand hold consumers like they are incapable of making their own financial decisions. Sure, some people are stupid or uninformed, but what can you do about it? It's not illegal to spend money on stupid shit.

Plus, you can't prove definitively that devs are milking in bad faith. You can have a strong suspicion, but you can't prove shit. There is also the fact that patreon is set up as a tip jar rather than a marketplace, so there is literally nothing to be done about it. Spend your energy on something more productive than whining about porn devs. Honestly, it's a very childish behavior that probably stems from selfishness rather than altruism in the vast majority of cases.

 

[haksaw]

What I don't get is why people are so invested in how other people spend their money.

Easy. "First they came for the socialists".

Sure, some people are stupid or uninformed, but what can you do about it?

Make them less stupid and uniformed? Those who push that crap spend billions on it, why should you just sit on your ass and shut up because "it's not your money"? It's also not those companies money (yet), but they are not shy in trying to get it any way possible.

That said, "milking" is not mainly the dev problem, rather subscription model that encourages it. It's basically f2p multiplayer with microtransactions vs single player one purscase again. Why make a completed game and sell it once, when you can make the same game and then sell costumes and weapon skins for years? Well, now we are at purchase with microtransactions stage for mainstream games

 

[JerryC]

Hey guys, I just read a whole bunch of pages from this thread. You see, I'm a big fan of story driven vns. I loved it for years. I took kind of a break from vns for a year or so, and returned a few weeks ago, first finishing the updates of the ones I already know and then looking for some new gems. I found a few I liked, and then... Eternum happened.

I loved this thing so much, it instantly made it to my top 10. And I just finished it. It was so good. One of the very best.

But it gave me that dreaded feeling - how the fuck am I going to find something that remotely gives me any feelings at all after so much fun, laughter, passion? So I started looking around and I must say, looking at the overviews of the games I didn't play yet, I didn't find any that gave me the impression I was REALLY missing out.

So I read this topic thoroughly, and well... I'm even more undecided, since there are LOTS of propositions and I definitely don't have the time to try them all! I can try a few but I'm really tight on my schedule lately.

So I thought, if some of you would be so kind and give me just ONE recommandation that you think I would really like according to my tastes, I would be very grateful. If you don't have the time or the will to do so, that's perfectly cool too, don't worry about it, we're cool

So my top 20 are :

Being a DIK
City of Broken Dreamers
The DeLuca Family
Chasing Sunsets
Summer's Gone
Eternum
Where it all Began
Leap of Faith
Tales from the Unending Void
Price of Power
Waifu Academy
Acting Lessons
Depraved Awakening
Love Season : Farmer's Dream
Intertwined
The Intoxicating Flavor
Primal Instinct
SW The Warrior's Heart
Elsaverse ( => Chasing Beth)
Long Live the Princess

And you could take a look at my full rankings

You must be registered to see the links

if you like (A note about Melody in here, it's the first game I played when discovering these vns and it helped me tremendously at a difficult time in my life, so it holds a special place into my heart and is not rated - I can't give it a rating, since it's objectively far from being as good as the best there are but it brought me more than any).

Thanks ahead for anything

 

[Raife]

What I don't get is why people are so invested in how other people spend their money.

I strongly agree with you, desmosome. Those on 'anti-milking' crusades should ask themselves: 'am I really motivated by altruism, or by some combination of jealousy, resentment and/or disappointment?'

No doubt, there are many genuine cases of fraud or milking. But most of what I see, on this site, is misdirected and sophomoric petulance that frequently strays into bullying.

I have been following some of the devs who post on this thread for years. They are honest and hard-working, and often put tremendous pressure on themselves to hit self-imposed deadlines and meet fan expectations. Many of them, as noping recently pointed out, are amateurs with demanding day jobs and family responsibilities. They are real people, with hopes, dreams and a great deal of creative passion.

The idea that these people are engaged in some sort of 'milking' enterprise -- presumably by teasing work that they don't really intend to complete -- is contemptibly wrong and morally repugnant. And yet... many if not most of them have been accused of 'milking' at one time or another by self-appointed scolds who are really just poorly-disguised trolls.

Speaking only for myself: I've had a fair amount of financial success, and choose to support devs I admire... not in order to receive regular game updates, but just because I am inspired by their creativity and work ethic. My support for Tlaero, for example, is inspired by the fact that I think she's a brilliant person and creative artist... and I want her and Mortze to follow their muse. It's not because I want her to deliver a new episode of _Toro 7_ next month. I'm supporting artists for their own sake, not an AVN subscription service.

Finally, those of us who follow jufot's thread regularly do so, in part, because we want to see more of a certain type of story-rich AVN produced. That entails frequently backing devs with very small fan-bases and earnings, who cannot dedicate enough time to produce regular game updates. They often beat themselves up for being unable to publish new episodes frequently; that self-criticism is sometimes inspired by accusations of milking. I've had to talk sqwl out of quitting a couple of times after such abuse, for example.

One last enjoinder: remember, there are real people behind those dev handles. They are exposing a little bit of themselves in their work, and can sometimes be hurt, badly, by misdirected attacks. Tread lightly, and examine your own motives carefully...