Recommending Story-first games

[Jaike]

Of course it was: it's from Jaike. I'm still thinking bout this game... playing it was an odd experience.

I don't think often about the game, unless I'm playing a game with a similar materialistic protagonist and then it works like a good satire, but I occasionally wonder how the dev is doing or if the dev is still doing anything at all.

Not sure about the quality of my recommendations, or even just of my taste. The latest VN I tried was praised by a few people and its setup had obvious story potential, but it was mostly a gory mess with even more depressing shit than Lady in Blue. Though I'm not going to recommend it here.

BTW, Jaike's note (and warning about choking on a drink) created a bizarre image in my mind's eye of jufot, sitting in an armchair with a tumbler of Laphroig, opining about AVNs in a plummy English accent like some sort of porny Alistair Cooke.

Oh I was thinking about stuff like coffee or, for the UK, tea when I wrote "drink". Also aren't you the one with the plummier vocabulary?

 

[jufot]

Also aren't you the one with the plummier vocabulary?

Hear, hear! Raife pretends to be of the common folk, but it's all lies!

The charlatan tried to paint me as some sort of landed gentry with his sneering imagery, but I reckon my impression of him was a lot more accurate given his recent confession about his background

(Also, I would shout "it's Laphroaig, not Laphroig you philistine!" to Raife, but that would only reinforce his entirely undeserved caricature of me, so I won't)

 

[Raife]

(Also, I would shout "it's Laphroaig, not Laphroig you philistine!" to Raife, but that would only reinforce his entirely undeserved caricature of me, so I won't)

You couldn't resist the self-own, now, could you, Alistair? Now you know that I'm not a Scot or a heavy boozer... but perhaps I'm playing a double game!

As for the common folk... I never claimed to be a man of the people. But at least I can rub shoulders with the local worthies without causing a brawl.

Next time that I'm really bored or stuck in an airport, maybe I'll do a 'jufot educates the masses on F95' list, which I promise you will be absolutely hilarious. I mean... I always love that you tried.

 

[Raife]

I don't think often about the game, unless I'm playing a game with a similar materialistic protagonist and then it works like a good satire, but I occasionally wonder how the dev is doing or if the dev is still doing anything at all.

Not sure about the quality of my recommendations, or even just of my taste. The latest VN I tried was praised by a few people and its setup had obvious story potential, but it was mostly a gory mess with even more depressing shit than Lady in Blue. Though I'm not going to recommend it here.

Your taste is never dull. That particular game... well, I think all of us worried a bit about the dev after we played it.

Speaking of devs I'm worried about... Nyx is one of them. She is such a perfectionist, and so attentive to her fans (my DMs always get a rapid answer) that I worry she's going to burn herself out. The new job and move just make that dynamic worse: moving is a pain, but moving to another country is 10X worse.

 

[camube]

Why conflate

I can pull "sorry, my English is not good" card here for a reply but on second thought, even if i have perfect command of English, i think the actual reason of the conflation is that i don't think about the distinction deeply enough from your lens.

Since I don't think like you, it looks like conflation from your lens. And maybe I did conflate the two.

I can't say I did or did not conflate the two, but i do can say i don't think about it thoroughly enough before making a reply to you.

You must be registered to see the links

from Nyx for Intertwined. Short version for non-patrons:

- LI branches are being redesigned. All saves will be broken.
- Episode 1 will be redone. New renders, new locations.
- Other episodes will be re-rendered / upgraded in the future.
- Nyx is moving countries, so no development for a while.
- There will be a replay gallery, potentially with non-sex scenes as well, but it won't block the next update.
- Episode 11 will be shorter, two in-game days. Mostly focusing on Erynn's photoshoot and Layla's hot tub party.

In an ideal world, I can see these resulting in a better game down the line, but Intertwined already has scope creep issues and I fear redoing past chapters will only make that worse

This is more than just a mixed news, this is a sad news.

Well goodbye Elena, you will always be in my memory, for like 6 months, or maybe a year, until i forget about you.

Your taste is never dull. That particular game... well, I think all of us worried a bit about the dev after we played it.

Speaking of devs I'm worried about... Nyx is one of them. She is such a perfectionist, and so attentive to her fans (my DMs always get a rapid answer) that I worry she's going to burn herself out. The new job and move just make that dynamic worse: moving is a pain, but moving to another country is 10X worse.

I agree with you here.

1, in f95zone, Intertwined thread is just so goddamn awful I'm really empathetic towards Nyx just off of that alone.
2 yeah, on Patreon she responded to my message very quickly too.

Man, rework is just not it. These devs really need a project manager. 8 years for a game development is just way too long.

As much as people highly praise Summer's Gone and Where It All Begin, I don't think I have any desire to play it given the development time.
I did play Where It All Begin the new version, and then i realized how extremely short that was, and that made me have 0 desire to play Summers Gone and future Where It All Begin.

Oh! Speaking of, I read from Mad World thread that a new update is going to come this week!

I know Mad World was on Page 1 list back then. I really like it to be honest.

I also think I would really enjoy Reluctant Archon based on the description but the fact that it's abandoned makes me do not want to play it at all, which is a shame. Knowing that it's abandoned is immersion-breaking to me and of all the games listed on Page 1 that is abandoned, Reluctant Archon is the one I wanted to try the most.

 

[realjitter]

I remember reading WIAB over a year ago. I kinda forgot about it already to be honest because back then i thought it was, for the most part at least, pretty trashy, . It got better in the second half in my opinion. I liked the whole field trip part near the end with them doing drugs and whatnot. But now reading that it gets/got reworked.. I don't know, I just think it would be better to just finish your games first and if you really like your creation so much just do a remaster after it's done. But that's just me..

 

[camube]

I remember reading WIAB over a year ago. I kinda forgot about it already to be honest because back then i thought it was, for the most part at least, pretty trashy, . It got better in the second half in my opinion. I liked the whole field trip part near the end with them doing drugs and whatnot. But now reading that it gets/got reworked.. I don't know, I just think it would be better to just finish your games first and if you really like your creation so much just do a remaster after it's done. But that's just me..

I realized after the fact that it's a hobby for these devs. It's nowhere near enough to generate full time income, and for some of the devs, the pressure from the players could be unwarranted. Case in point to me would be Intertwined, and probably Our Red String to a lesser degree.

Nyx or devs like Nyx does not warrant the criticism or comments that she received on the game's f95zone thread. I'd be happier if I know for a fact that she doesn't read things from here. I hope she doesn't, some of the comments there are just not good.

Hell I don't even think Drifty warrants reading my criticism of his game that I wrote on this thread. Because as much as what I wrote was true from my lens, I also realized that Drifty tried his best to tell a story from his lens.

It's better for these devs if they don't read some of the posts we players wrote, especially if those posts are hurtful to them.
There are constructive criticism that they are better off reading, but many of the posts that they could have read, I think they are better off not reading if it bothers them to a point where it detracts their creative process (I'm thinkin about Nyx specifically on this post).

I honestly think some of the posts on her game's f95zone thread is just so mean.

 

[Hildegardt]

Hell I don't even think Drifty warrants reading my criticism of his game that I wrote on this thread. Because as much as what I wrote was true from my lens, I also realized that Drifty tried his best to tell a story from his lens.

I guess it depends on how well a particular dev is able to deal with criticism, but any attempt at a discussion that is not just unsupported claims is a positive in my book. Not many AVNs are even worth engaging with in this way. Even if it's not meant as constructive criticism, but only as an opinion, it still shows that you spend some genuine time with the game that went beyond a quick fap.
It's not something that belongs into the reviews section, but in this thread you're more talking about a shared preference.

 

[noping123]

I guess it depends on how well a particular dev is able to deal with criticism, but any attempt at a discussion that is not just unsupported claims is a positive in my book. Not many AVNs are even worth engaging with in this way. Even if it's not meant as constructive criticism, but only as an opinion, it still shows that you spend some genuine time with the game that went beyond a quick fap.
It's not something that belongs into the reviews section, but in this thread you're more talking about a shared preference.

You touched on one of the main reasons I keep track of this thread.

There is something almost everyone does, that REALLY annoys me - if they don't like something, it sucks, it's bad. For some reason very few people are able to admit when something is good but just not for them. You only tend to see that happen when something is out of this world fantastic - most things decent, good, or great end up being "shit" according to anyone who's opinion is "I don't like it". This thread has a habit of being able to make that distinction - recognizing something isn't bad, but also isn't for them - or the even more rare, recognizing something IS bad but you enjoy it anyway. Or the ultra-rare - not liking something that is massively popular and actually be willing to say as much.

The other thing I find interesting is watching people deconstruct characters from a game, their personalities, motivations, actions, and everything else. I feel like very few devs (even the ones being talked about in any given deconstruction) aren't putting that level of thought into it. At least speaking for myself, I know I'm not... well not quite. I know for me I don't think about any of that stuff because I don't need to - I guess you could say there is some of that subconsciously, but I know when I'm writing for my characters none of that is in my mind - I put myself in a place where these characters aren't characters, but actual people.... with real lifes, histories, personalities, and so on - and I let it all play out. I like to think of it not as writing, but recording history - the scenario plays out between these very real people, and then I write down what happened and what was said. That's the way I personally approach it (And I know for a fact I'm not alone in that.... obviously other people have different methods but I feel like a lot of writers take that approach just from people I've spoken to), so it does make me wonder how many devs read the deconstructions of their characters and think "Oh yea that totally makes sense.' or alternatively "Oh if you only knew".


For example... in my next chapter which I'm finishing up now, I made a major change while working on it.... well not really. It's actually a fairly minor change but it's major at the same time. Idk how to say more than that without details so I won't, but the point is, I did it because.... it made sense. Given the scenario and what was happening, it was the only thing that made sense. As I was plotting out the entire chapter beat for beat, it just sort of came along and happened, and I could have resisted and stuck hard to the "plan" I had written out over a year ago, but I didn't because.... given the journey the characters have been on so far, it's what should happen... it's what would happen.

It's like that one quote I love.... "Make the plan. Execute the plan. Expect the plan to go off the rails, throw away the plan."

Speaking of off the rails, I started this wall of text in one place and boy did I end up somewhere else. That's what stream of consciousness typing does I guess. (Also I had 10 frames left in this animation to render so I had to kill time somehow so I can start the next one then pass out).

 

[Raife]

1, in f95zone, Intertwined thread is just so goddamn awful I'm really empathetic towards Nyx just off of that alone.
2 yeah, on Patreon she responded to my message very quickly too.

Nyx is obviously a good, conscientious person. I have a many nitpicks about _Intertwined_, but she does some things brilliantly and is learning from her experience.

One of the many things that I loathe about this site (apart from this lovely thread) is the torrent of abuse she sometimes gets. It's a river of slime, at times and the mods do fuck all to help her. Controlling for everything else, such as her game's relative financial success, I suspect that the fact that she's a woman provokes the incel/fratbro crowd.

 

[Impious Monk]

I do think devs can get a lot of good advice/suggestions/feedback on their games from this site, both on the pages for their games and on general topic threads like this one. To really take advantage of this aspect of the community a dev needs a thick skin, humility, and the wisdom to see what's good advice and what isn't. But in responding to criticism a dev also has to be diplomatic in order to maintain a good reputation in the community. Probably one of the keys to maintaining your sanity as a dev on F95 is being able to emotionally filter out the unhelpful comments.

I'm going to go off on a little bit of a tangent here.

One of the big differences between writing an AVN and being a legit professional fiction writer is having your work reviewed by other professionals before it gets published. Whether it's your publishing company's editor or the person who is directing the script for the episode of television you wrote, having the extra eyes on your work makes a big difference. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of AVN devs don't have a professional editor and, frankly, it shows. And I'm not talking about grammar and spelling errors. Even the best written AVN's have issues with plotting, pacing, character development, etc. that could be fixed with the help of a professional editor.

For example, Brandon Sanderson said that when he was trying to get Elantris published his editor told him, essentially, that he needed to rewrite it so that each chapter was presented from the point of view of a single character. What would have happened if he would have just self-published it without ever getting that advice? He'd still be a good writer and Elantris would still be a good story, but it wouldn't have been presented as well as it could have been.

What I would love is to sit down with a professional screenwriter consultant or book editor and lay out my entire story from start to finish and ask, "Okay, what's wrong with it?" Worries about pacing, themes, and character development aside, I live in terror that I'll release an update and the community will immediately pounce on some plot hole that completely breaks the entire story.

But it is what it is. Like I said, F95 does have a lot of good insight/suggestions, and there have been quite a few improvements I've made to my game based on feedback I've gotten from the community. This thread in particular should be required reading for anyone who wants to produce a story-driven AVN.

 

[osanaiko]

I'm sure the overwhelming majority of AVN devs don't have a professional editor and, frankly, it shows. And I'm not talking about grammar and spelling errors. Even the best written AVN's have issues with plotting, pacing, character development, etc. that could be fixed with the help of a professional editor.

While making absolutely no claims to any objective level of skill or professionalism regards editing, I think I can offer some insight on this topic:

One thing that greatly surprised me when I started doing proofreading/editing is that a portion of AVN game developers I've (attempted to) work with are not interested in feedback that could be seen as critical of their work, especially when that relates to plot.

I suspect that there are two things at play - one is that very few developers have a workflow that writes out detailed scripts ahead of time. Instead most of the writing is done under time pressure while developing the next "chapter". So what I get to see is a pre-release or alpha version which already has several weeks of work invested. The sheer amount of effort required to redo things probably plays into some unwillingness to change things.

The other is related to ownership of the idea - the game concept or story is something they have possibly spent years living with in their heads, and suggestion to change things could almost be like a personal attack or an attempt to "take over".

Due to the asymmetry of the effort I can contribute vs that put in by the game developer I am always careful to make it clear that the game is 100% their baby and that I am just along for the rider and to give a small amount of help, not take control or try to influence too much.
It is unfortunate that a large percentage of players (although probably few who would be in this thread) have no appreciation for the massive amount of work that goes into making a game, and I definitely refuse to add to that burden.

Thankfully the individuals with whom I am now working are largely open to honest feedback about most things. But even within that, the level of influence an editor can have within an amateur environment varies depending on the personality of the developer. I guess it is different for professional writers/publishers where relatively big money is concerned - the ability and desire to enforce high standards is much greater.

 

[camube]

Like I said, F95 does have a lot of good insight/suggestions, and there have been quite a few improvements I've made to my game based on feedback I've gotten from the community. This thread in particular should be required reading for anyone who wants to produce a story-driven AVN.

That is true. Instead of a thread with 50(?) regulars, it should have been pinned somewhere on the forum instead.

I think these games sometimes have too long of an MC monologue repeating the same points over and over and over and over and over again. This is not just a problem with AVNs, in Japanese VNs as well.

I used to be able to tolerate that, but in the world post-covid, I realized ain't nobody got time for that so I drop games that might even have stellar stories if the MC monologue is far too repetitive about their (something). Usually him talking to themselves about inferiority aspects of him/them. I don't want to read a VN 20 hours in where you still talk about your inferior traits. You don't have to move on, but you don't have to think it multiple times per day. It gets repetitive and tiring to read.

One of the big differences between writing an AVN and being a legit professional fiction writer is having your work reviewed by other professionals before it gets published.

I enjoy playing Noemi Toscana Rebirth but the description of events and settings in that game REALLY NEED an editor. And this one, I really don't mind if the dev read it.

Noemi Toscana's devs, you really need an editor. You write so long that even your patreon post updates are LONG. Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[noping123]

While making absolutely no claims to any objective level of skill or professionalism regards editing, I think I can offer some insight on this topic:

One thing that greatly surprised me when I started doing proofreading/editing is that a portion of AVN game developers I've (attempted to) work with are not interested in feedback that could be seen as critical of their work, especially when that relates to plot.

I suspect that there are two things at play - one is that very few developers have a workflow that writes out detailed scripts ahead of time. Instead most of the writing is done under time pressure while developing the next "chapter". So what I get to see is a pre-release or alpha version which already has several weeks of work invested. The sheer amount of effort required to redo things probably plays into some unwillingness to change things.

The other is related to ownership of the idea - the game concept or story is something they have possibly spent years living with in their heads, and suggestion to change things could almost be like a personal attack or an attempt to "take over".

Due to the asymmetry of the effort I can contribute vs that put in by the game developer I am always careful to make it clear that the game is 100% their baby and that I am just along for the rider and to give a small amount of help, not take control or try to influence too much.
It is unfortunate that a large percentage of players (although probably few who would be in this thread) have no appreciation for the massive amount of work that goes into making a game, and I definitely refuse to add to that burden.

Thankfully the individuals with whom I am now working are largely open to honest feedback about most things. But even within that, the level of influence an editor can have within an amateur environment varies depending on the personality of the developer. I guess it is different for professional writers/publishers where relatively big money is concerned - the ability and desire to enforce high standards is much greater.

I think the best way to approach that sort of proofreading/editing, is to never make suggestions unless they're extremely minor. Instead, ask questions. If things feel slow or fast or don't make sense, ask about it. But not "Why is this section so slow?" - more like "I don't get why they don't just XXX". Etc.

It's extremely easy to get defensive against suggestions, ESPECIALLY if you feel like they might change a part of the story. Lines of thinking such as "If you know so much why aren't you writing your own? Maybe if you could do that you'd be worth listening to" are common in those scenarios. By posing questions only - especially ones you think a reader/player might have - you'll allow the writer to either justify it or explain it (And sometimes they can, and sometimes it makes perfect sense) or come to their own conclusions on how to improve it based on what you said.

A lot of times everything makes perfect sense to the writer, because they often have information no one else does. It's very easy to get wrapped up in that, and not realize that other people might have questions about things or certain things might feel weirdly paced or not make sense, because you as the writer is looking at it from a different perspective.

By asking questions like I mentioned, you're allowing the writer the ability to view things from that alternate perspective, while simultaneously helping to focus them on particular areas you think may be improvable.

That's my personal 2 cents on it anyway.

 

[Tlaero]

I don't know Nyx and I've never played Intertwined, so my opinions here are inherently suspect. But I would have advised her not to take the route she's planning. I feel that it's better to move forward than back. In cases like this, I suggest finishing the game as it is, learning from the experience, and taking that learning into the design of the next game. Many developers are too focused on making one game, and that hamstrings them. Humans get better through repetition and practice. Their early attempts are bad, but they get better through doing them.

Few writers write one novel. Few directors create one movie. Few musicians write one song. These people create, and they create, and they create some more. We shouldn't expect AVN developers to be any different.

As for the feedback here on F95 and elsewhere, I'm of two minds. My primary reward for the long hours spent on this hobby is feedback. So, while I don't enjoy people calling me stupid, etc, it's probably better than not getting feedback at all. And the choice between polite negative feedback and no feedback is easy. I want the feedback. There's nothing more demoralizing than spending a long time on something and having no one seem to notice.

Tlaero

 

[camube]

I don't know Nyx and I've never played Intertwined, so my opinions here are inherently suspect. But I would have advised her not to take the route she's planning. I feel that it's better to move forward than back. In cases like this, I suggest finishing the game as it is, learning from the experience, and taking that learning into the design of the next game. Many developers are too focused on making one game, and that hamstrings them. Humans get better through repetition and practice. Their early attempts are bad, but they get better through doing them.

Few writers write one novel. Few directors create one movie. Few musicians write one song. These people create, and they create, and they create some more. We shouldn't expect AVN developers to be any different.

As for the feedback here on F95 and elsewhere, I'm of two minds. My primary reward for the long hours spent on this hobby is feedback. So, while I don't enjoy people calling me stupid, etc, it's probably better than not getting feedback at all. And the choice between polite negative feedback and no feedback is easy. I want the feedback. There's nothing more demoralizing than spending a long time on something and having no one seem to notice.

Tlaero

Nyx is not here. She left f95zone.
At least that's the last I've heard of it. I don't keep up with Intertwined threads though. I don't know the latest news.

I also agree with you it's just better to move forward in terms of developing game to the finish line.

But from reading the replies of some of the devs in this forum, I have a sense that the devs in general fully know that the chance that they could earn a living income from the game they created is really slim.
That they need to develop the game in their spare time.

And precisely due to that, their game becomes their "one creation". Hence why they opt to rewrite or re-do the beginning of their game. They are doing it for them. Like some sort of legacy or something like that.

Since the $ number is just not enough to earn a living income, the game becomes something they created for themselves first and foremost, hence the rewrites.

The view I just wrote is not talking about the devs that decided to quit after a while. It's for the devs that keeps on chugging on continuing to develop the game despite slow release schedule or breaks. Like Mad World for example. Or Our Red String, on top of Intertwined.

 

[noping123]

Few writers write one novel. Few directors create one movie. Few musicians write one song. These people create, and they create, and they create some more. We shouldn't expect AVN developers to be any different.

We absolutely SHOULD expect devs to be different, and camube pretty much pointed out why.

You are comparing professionals to ameteurs. People who get paid, vs people who do it as a hobby (and if they're lucky make a little bit on the side).

Like he said, many people will only ever make one game - it's a labor of passion, and they want it to be as close to perfect as they can manage. Some want to keep making them, but many don't. They want to create "their" game, and then be done. (Ok ok, what a vast majority really want is enough money to live off of, and to keep making news ones, but once the reality settles in that's not happening, they very often settle into the one and done).

It's great that you have all this background, and you pump out all these games, but please do not expect every dev to be anything like you - most aren't. Most are trying to make the game they wanted to see, or tell the story they wanted to tell, and that's it - so why shouldn't they keep going back over and over it trying to improve it? Why should they be pressured into pumping out quantity over quality (with your expectation that they'll get better the more they do - which honestly, isn't always true), the answer is, they shouldn't. They should be encouraged to improve their earlier work - not abandon it and move on because "Hey the next one might be better!" - many MANY devs I've personally spoken to have absolutely 0 interest in "The next one" - they want to do THIS one.

What you are saying makes absolute perfect sense - for a professional, for someone trying to make an honest living off of this stuff. Pretty much everyone who doesn't completely abandon their project in the first 2-3 updates realizes very quick that isn't a reality, and they aren't part of the 1% who make it - so they shouldn't, in my opinion, approach it the same way at all.



Not to mention the massive amount of "exceptions to your rule" - the people (musicians, writers, directors, and so on) who create a damn near masterpiece on their first try - and everything they do from then on falls WAY short of expectations.

The term one-hit-wonder exists for a reason.


I understand your perspective based on your experience and your point of view on all of this, but looking at these games as a whole, and the dev community at large, I'm going to hard disagree with you.

 

[Tlaero]

That's totally fair, noping123.

Tlaero

 

[desmosome]

Zero End seems pretty decent. It has a young adult novel vibe dealing with the occult and a "school for gifted children" type of scenario. Yea, not the most original premise, but the focus does seem to be on the mystery surrounding the school and MC's past. Different routes give you insight into different characters. It's a nice first release and would probably appeal to many folks here.

 

[EndlessNights]

Like he said, many people will only ever make one game - it's a labor of passion, and they want it to be as close to perfect as they can manage.

I question whether it's really the relentless quest for artistic perfection that leads devs to rework, rewrite, rerender, and reboot. My completely unprovable opinion is that it's actually more often self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy that drives game creators to circle back instead of move forward. Not only is this cycle potentially mentally healthy, but I think in many cases it also turns out to be pure self-sabotage. Games can lose momentum and support when they go dark for months at a time so they can be tinkered with. Changes are often resented by the existing player base who wouldn't have been playing the game in the first place if they didn't already like it as it was. Furthermore, reworks don't necessarily bring new players in as devs hope.

One post on the Intertwined thread really stuck with me. The poster noted he or she had 48 (!!!) game saves, all of which would be rendered useless by the coming update. That's one dedicated fan who has poured some serious time into the game, and I thought what a shame it would be if that person became alienated from a game they clearly loved just because of a rework. Hopefully, that won't happen and we'll all be enthralled by all of Nyx's planned changes. In my experience, though, that'd make Intertwined the exception to the rule...most reworks turn out not to be worth it from my vantage point as a player.

I think Tlaero's advice is right on and matches what I've found to be true in life in general. Keep moving forward and learning as you go. Focus on gradual improvement over the long haul, not unachievable perfection. If you have a great idea that would require your game to be reworked in order for it to be implemented, maybe save it for your next project instead of completely disrupting your current one. Do plan to making a next project because you'll have a better idea of what you're doing (and hopefully have the beginnings of a faithful fan base that will stand by you and grow).

If you're ready to give up on game development because it just isn't paying the bills and recompensing you for your effort, I empathize and understand. I feel like most of the VNs I like the best deserve more financial support than they actually receive, particularly when I see what some of the games I don't like manage to bring in every month. The market fails to recognize the true value of art every single day. But, on the other hand, being able to make ANY money while releasing incomplete game demos is something most indie game devs in past eras could never have even dreamed of doing. This world of 2022 we're all living in sucks, but it's also kind of cool.