Recommending Story-first games
- Thread starter jufot
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i almost always makes MC answered Emma with sensitive points and they don't really bicker that much. I have other playthrough with Lea path and deliberately make MC acts opposite to Emma's viewpoint, and Emma's response between the 2 MCs is different
Of course it was: it's from Jaike. I'm still thinking bout this game... playing it was an odd experience.
BTW, Jaike's note (and warning about choking on a drink) created a bizarre image in my mind's eye of jufot, sitting in an armchair with a tumbler of Laphroig, opining about AVNs in a plummy English accent like some sort of porny Alistair Cooke.
That's one of many reasons why this game is so special: I've played through the Emma sections as a blue/yellow MC, as yellow/red and as green/red. The dialogue and some of the scenes are quite different, but remain true to both the MC's and Emma's core personalities.
I'm enjoying the follow up as wellOf course it was: it's from Jaike. I'm still thinking bout this game... playing it was an odd experience.
BTW, Jaike's note (and warning about choking on a drink) created a bizarre image in my mind's eye of jufot, sitting in an armchair with a tumbler of Laphroig, opining about AVNs in a plummy English accent like some sort of porny Alistair Cooke.
- Jul 4, 2017
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As Hannibal says:
MrSilverLust is extremely skilled at putting together the overarching story arc and then a realistic (for an adult game) plot for each love interest. The inventiveness of the dialogues and ability to keep a consistent and believable characterization behind each of players is second to none.
I love that I have the opportunity to work with him to take the game text from that "95% perfect" point and apply edits and "idiom massage" to rework his non-native English into the final product.
It makes me warm inside to hear all the high praise.
- May 15, 2021
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I'm not nearly as posh as that image suggests, but I do have a lovely armchair by the drinks trolleyBTW, Jaike's note (and warning about choking on a drink) created a bizarre image in my mind's eye of jufot, sitting in an armchair with a tumbler of Laphroig, opining about AVNs in a plummy English accent like some sort of porny Alistair Cooke.
I'm not so sure about this, because Emma seems to be the character you can force the MC's kink on. If you unlock the misogyny skill (what a weird "skill" to have btw), she claims that only degrading rp makes her cum and gets conflicted about how this fits with her beliefs. But if you unlock the pleasing skill, she cums just as well by getting her ass eaten.
I'm also not sure, if the MC can even have a core personality, because the choices in that regard are pretty substantive. One of the first major choices is about actually disagreeing with Emma or just arguing for fun for example. Dealing with Kim is also very black or white personality-wise (or in this case green or yellow, I guess).
Also he releases often.
Release early release often suits me way better than release rarely.
From my view as a consumer, I almost never care about sex animations so it's disheartening to me that Being a DIK latest chapter release is bottlenecked just by animations rendering since I want to experience the story.
Nothing is Forever forego animations for quicker release schedule suits me well. Since there are very few occasions where I think the adult animations are even important.
But I also understand that maybe for other patrons and potential patrons, the sex animations may be important for their decision on patroning.
I see what you're saying... but it's not so. The MC certainly has a core personality, but the way he interacts with the world -- and what changes in him -- differs substantially based on player choice. In this sense, Silver Lust has aggressively tackled the challenge of maintaining narrative integrity (and a core MC personality) while maximizing player agency. It's extremely difficult to do, which is why so few devs do it.
But the MC _does_ have a core personality, no matter what the player chooses, for example:
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The way his feelings express themselves varies widely based on player choice. In that sense, you're right... but the boundaries are there. There's a lot of territory for the player to explore, relative to most story-driven game MCs... but it isn't limitless. The MC certainly isn't a tabula rasa.
I'm not sure, if the things you've listed count as personality traits, but I'm pretty sure that the MC's malleable personality is a core game mechanic.
I think we're hair splitting: you are correct that the game allows the player a high degree of choice, and to guide the MC's personality.
But there are limits to player choice and personality molding; there are some things that the MC will do, or not do, regardless of player choice. Thus, the MC has a core personality, with a high degree of malleability and player agency surrounding that core.
Those limits on player agency are necessary, or it would not be a story first game. As we've discussed many times on this thread, it is almost impossible to build a story first game around a tabula rasa MC, because it produces narrative absurdities (e.g. if the MC can either be a lawful hero or a complete psychopath).
In this case, there are certain core features of the MC's personality (their feelings of guilt and inadequacy, for example) but SilverLust allows the player to express and react to these core feelings in radically different ways. It's a very, very clever conceit: clever enough to convince many players that they have complete control over the MC's personality and story.
I think it's less that we're splitting hair and more that feelings of guilt and inadequacy are not personality traits.
I'm sorry to have missed these discussions, but I could see how we either found the exception to the rule, or maybe this rule is just not that hard and fast. Keep in mind that "story-first" is just a description of one of Jufot's preferences and is allowed to be a little arbitrary. Either way I think it's a disservice to good AVNs, if we try too hard to put them into arbitrary boxes instead of enjoying them for what they are.
Not every story is about heroes and villains. Stories about repressed sexual kinks can also be good.
The protagonist doesn't have to be the only driving force in the story. Contrary to f95zone's usual misuse of the label "main character", most (if not arguably all) stories have multiple MCs.
I feel like the player has literally complete control over either going for characters like Jen and Kim, or rejecting them. And these two choices especially change the MC's personality quite drastically.
I concede... that you have vanquished several arguments that I did not make.
In fact, I agree with all of your assertions, here, apart from the contention that the MC has no core personality elements at all.
The fact is that he _does_ have core personality elements, because they are essential to the story that SilverLust is trying to tell i.e. the emotional background with the ex-girlfriend/patient, the MC's struggle to reconcile his desires with the demands of his profession, the abiding sense of failure that permeates his internal monologues, and his periodic alienation from his friends due to self-loathing and depression. If you could play the MC as a pure malignant narcissist, for example, he would not care about any of these things... and the narrative would have no motivating force.
But, frankly, I don't care for this argument, because I don't think we're actually in disagreement about anything significant. And I think that we can both agree that the game succeeds in accomplishing what it set out to do.
Fair enough, but I can't help but feel that it's important to point out that depression is not a personality trait, but a disease.
Without directly countering against your points in the past several posts, anecdotally for me, MC's background/past history shaped my decision making on controlling the MC. As in, at least for me he's not a Blank State Main Character.
Comparatively, there are tons of stories (not just AVN) where the main characters are closer to Blank State than NIF MC. Intertwined is another example like this where, despite not liking the pacing and the storytelling, that MC also has a past history that is pretty well-defined, in that it informs the players what kind of decision would MC with that past makes.
A counter-example to this to me would be BaDIK off the top of my head. Yeah BaDIK MC has a past too, but when I play it, his past doesn't really inform me on what decision the MC as himself would make (other than money and relationship with Dad).
To me BaDIK MC is way more "the player-substitute in college" than NIF MC being "player-substitute in that workplace". NIF Game informed the players of an MC with a past, where with that information we can then control his beings.
Like Kang from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Different World have different Kang but they are all still Kang.
A bit of a bad example here because each Kang have different past i think
Sure, Sensitive MC is not the same MC with Cunning MC. But both attractive-to-Lea Sensitive MC or attractive-to-Kim's Cunning MC has both the same past.
To me, the game is "consistent" in that manner.
You're not wrong in that we can control the MC himself based on choices and Emma reaction from Misogynistic MC and Emma reaction from Feminist MC has different reaction (I'm taking your word because I only play 1 version of Emma here), but it's still consistent if I look at it as 2 Emma from different reality.
At least that's my take in the sense of "consistency".
I mean, if a player decide to be a Sensitive MC, they may not / should not have enough Manly points as a consequence. At least a non-amateur game that is good should be like that.
I have an example to this. In Pale Carnations there is a female character named Veronica that heavily dislike the Carnation Club. So, if the MC leans heavily towards being a Carnation employee, as a consequence, he should not have been able to be [Friends] status with Veronica.
Which he couldn't. At least before the threshold for the [Friends] points get reduced down.
Sure we control Pale Carnations MC whether he'd embrace the Carnation Club or not, but I think Pale Carnations MC has a set background that inform us the players which branch do we want to take the story? Embracing the club, or not. And I see it as we get "different MC" and "different story" for that.
I don't even think the point you bring is wrong, but I can also see the merit of what Raife is saying in their posts.
Depression is indeed a disease.
To clarify, though: I was listing story elements that indicate a core personality, not personality traits. (The MC's ex is not a personality trait or a disease!) Apologies if I was unclear. (I'm trying to do too many things at once.)
Why conflate the PC's backstory with his personality, though? I feel like that's a very important distinction in a game, where every single choice is about shaping his personality.
Cunning choices put the PC's backstory into a different light than honorable choices, which is an important story element as highlighted by the four personality types arguing against each other in the PC's head.
His backstory sets boundaries in the universe of choices open to the MC. Those options aren't limitless, although they give the player an unusually high degree of control over shaping the MC's personality -- in a way that is credible within the context of the story.
For example, his backstory tells us that the MC values certain things: his job, his professional reputation, the way others perceive him, certain friendships. Those are core issues that bound his goals, his personality and the plot, no matter how you chose to play him. _Within_ those bounds, you -- the player -- can shape his personality, relationships and narrative in rather dramatically different ways.
The classic dilemma for devs is creating an illusion of limitless choice in a bounded world. If you're trying to tell a coherent story, it makes that task all the more difficult. The beauty of _Nothing is Forever_ is that it succeeds in creating a powerful feeling of player agency, even as it tells a coherent story...
- May 15, 2021
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from Nyx for Intertwined. Short version for non-patrons:- LI branches are being redesigned. All saves will be broken.
- Episode 1 will be redone. New renders, new locations.
- Other episodes will be re-rendered / upgraded in the future.
- Nyx is moving countries, so no development for a while.
- There will be a replay gallery, potentially with non-sex scenes as well, but it won't block the next update.
- Episode 11 will be shorter, two in-game days. Mostly focusing on Erynn's photoshoot and Layla's hot tub party.
In an ideal world, I can see these resulting in a better game down the line, but Intertwined already has scope creep issues and I fear redoing past chapters will only make that worse
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