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I assume you are not on the Cara/Nikki paths? Nyx had said that this chapter would also be like the previous one, mostly focused on those two
I'll have to wait 3 days to see it for myself.Recommending Story-first games
- Thread starter jufot
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I'll have to wait 3 days to see it for myself.ohh yeah thats right.I assume you are not on the Cara/Nikki paths? Nyx had said that this chapter would also be like the previous one, mostly focused on those two
If you remember, can you remind me again, is Cara/Nikki path and Erynn path exclusive between one another or something?
I don't remember for what reason I rejected Nikki but I know that generally, the way I approached Intertwined is to prioritized Erynn, because MC's past is all about Erynn.
Was it because the MC, at the time, is already in a relationship with Layla or something? I mean timeline-wise.
I didn't even get the teacher content even now.
And back then on my first playthrough, I also rejected Alexis's second approach at the bar.
I think I missed a lot of Intertwined contents on my Main playthrough. I think Intertwined is the only game I played where I heavily rely on walkthrough because for me, playing it blind the story did not intertwined much, if not at all.
The intertwining between Alexis and Layla and Alexis and Erynn never happened in my playthrough because I prioritized Erynn and rejected "thirsty girl" second approach at the bar. lmaoo
I only found out about the whole Intertwining after a playthrough with walkthrough.
Honestly, I'm close to dropping Intertwined, it's very telenovella-esque in a way that doesn't engaged me. But I like Elena character design and story bits and I only play this to see more of her content.
Tbh, among the games I keep up with, Intertwined engaged me the least. I really like character like Elena though, personality-wise. So, I hope Nyx writes more of Elena.
I understand why Nyx adds Valeria but there's just way too many love interests, unless Valeria and Iris are meant to be side characters that wouldn't get equal content.
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So, I wanted to ask a question about my game, for anyone who's played it and is familiar with it. I might ramble a bit here but....
Originally I envisioned it as a very short story, much shorter than it ended up being. As I've been finishing up work on CH6 I've been thinking a lot about things....
Ch6 was, initially, expected to be a relatively small chapter. I definitely did not plan on there being too much in it. As I was working on it, I made sure to include everything I wanted to include... and as I went along I got a few ideas of other things I wanted to include....
When I originally created the story and the characters, I wrote down a LOT that I never planned on introducing into the game (and some I still probably won't). Lots of stuff about the characters, their backstories, all sorts of stuff. I did this for myself for reference, so I was easily able to maintain narrative consistency and tone among the characters as I progressed. If each character had a specific backstory, personality, state of mind, etc... it makes it easier to put myself in their head so as to keep their tone consistent throughout the writing process - so that their actions, what they say, etc is always true to who they are. I never intended to introduce a lot of that into the game....
As things progressed, some of it ended up making it in anyway though. Then I ran into a few situations where I just felt like certain characters were neglected and deserved more screen-time, but I didn't have much for them, so I delved into some of that stuff I had written down for my own reference and incorporated it into various scenes.
Particularly when working on CH6 I noticed something happen. First, I made sure to hit all the points and bits I wanted to. Then when going through it all I realized some stuff was missing. It's hard to explain but let's say for example you go from point A to point B - but how did you get there? As I was going along I wanted to introduce some scenes to bridge those gaps I had, so I added a few scenes where I incorporated some of that earlier stuff.
Then I had to add more scenes when I accounted for every time I'd done something similar (Or got a "cool" idea I wanted to include along the way), so that I could try to maintain narrative consistency throughout. Most importantly, I tried to not have situations where certain things made complete sense on one path, and none on another - so again, I tried to make sure I included what was necessary to maintain the logic.
Once all was said and done Ch6 ended up being the largest one I've done so far (the scary bit is when I look at what I have planned for 7, it's tiny in comparison.....), and it's ultimately going to end up adding even more to Ch7 as I make sure I yet again maintain that consistency throughout.
So my question, given all of that, was it a mistake, or the right call? On the downside it requires a lot more development time, adds a lot of stuff that, while sometimes interesting isn't ultimately plot important, and makes keeping track of it all difficult. On the other hand it does give a little bit more insight into the characters and who they are.
In my original plan, you would have gotten *some* sense of who they were, but ultimately most of it would have been left unsaid - you could sort of guess a lot of the stuff but a lot would have ended up being left to the imagination. Instead as I progress more and more is being explicitly laid out and stated. Originally there would have been a ton of story gaps where you were sort of left to fill in the blanks and sort of "figure out" how you got from A to B, rather than actually seeing it happen.
Of course Originally you would have fucked Mary in a bathroom stall once or twice and then never seen her again, so who knows. I'm just curious what ppl here think would have been the better approach in retrospect. Had I taken the original one the game would be completely finished by now and I'd be moving on to the next thing whatever that will be, there also would have been a lot less content for better or worse. (Not that there's a TON now, but like I said. It was intended to be rather short).
Originally I envisioned it as a very short story, much shorter than it ended up being. As I've been finishing up work on CH6 I've been thinking a lot about things....
Ch6 was, initially, expected to be a relatively small chapter. I definitely did not plan on there being too much in it. As I was working on it, I made sure to include everything I wanted to include... and as I went along I got a few ideas of other things I wanted to include....
When I originally created the story and the characters, I wrote down a LOT that I never planned on introducing into the game (and some I still probably won't). Lots of stuff about the characters, their backstories, all sorts of stuff. I did this for myself for reference, so I was easily able to maintain narrative consistency and tone among the characters as I progressed. If each character had a specific backstory, personality, state of mind, etc... it makes it easier to put myself in their head so as to keep their tone consistent throughout the writing process - so that their actions, what they say, etc is always true to who they are. I never intended to introduce a lot of that into the game....
As things progressed, some of it ended up making it in anyway though. Then I ran into a few situations where I just felt like certain characters were neglected and deserved more screen-time, but I didn't have much for them, so I delved into some of that stuff I had written down for my own reference and incorporated it into various scenes.
Particularly when working on CH6 I noticed something happen. First, I made sure to hit all the points and bits I wanted to. Then when going through it all I realized some stuff was missing. It's hard to explain but let's say for example you go from point A to point B - but how did you get there? As I was going along I wanted to introduce some scenes to bridge those gaps I had, so I added a few scenes where I incorporated some of that earlier stuff.
Then I had to add more scenes when I accounted for every time I'd done something similar (Or got a "cool" idea I wanted to include along the way), so that I could try to maintain narrative consistency throughout. Most importantly, I tried to not have situations where certain things made complete sense on one path, and none on another - so again, I tried to make sure I included what was necessary to maintain the logic.
Once all was said and done Ch6 ended up being the largest one I've done so far (the scary bit is when I look at what I have planned for 7, it's tiny in comparison.....), and it's ultimately going to end up adding even more to Ch7 as I make sure I yet again maintain that consistency throughout.
So my question, given all of that, was it a mistake, or the right call? On the downside it requires a lot more development time, adds a lot of stuff that, while sometimes interesting isn't ultimately plot important, and makes keeping track of it all difficult. On the other hand it does give a little bit more insight into the characters and who they are.
In my original plan, you would have gotten *some* sense of who they were, but ultimately most of it would have been left unsaid - you could sort of guess a lot of the stuff but a lot would have ended up being left to the imagination. Instead as I progress more and more is being explicitly laid out and stated. Originally there would have been a ton of story gaps where you were sort of left to fill in the blanks and sort of "figure out" how you got from A to B, rather than actually seeing it happen.
Of course Originally you would have fucked Mary in a bathroom stall once or twice and then never seen her again, so who knows. I'm just curious what ppl here think would have been the better approach in retrospect. Had I taken the original one the game would be completely finished by now and I'd be moving on to the next thing whatever that will be, there also would have been a lot less content for better or worse. (Not that there's a TON now, but like I said. It was intended to be rather short).
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I don't remember exactly, but that sounds right.
Indeed, my first playthrough was all about Erynn. Even now, her storyline is half the reason I play the game.
I ran into the same thing the first time around, and it's because Alexis' path is different from everyone else. With other girls, you can choose not to pursue them and remain friends. With Alexis, she basically drops off from the story if you reject her just once during the first chapter.
Nyx has said she regretted doing it like that, but it was too late to change.
She is my second favourite after Erynn
Honestly, I wasn't happy with those LI additions. They are good characters, but scope creep was already a big problem before them, and now it's just going to get worse :/
Yeah I like how mrsilverlust is doing it, sidelining Olivia and to some extent Brie so far. And most importantly, prioritizing story over animation.I don't remember exactly, but that sounds right.
Indeed, my first playthrough was all about Erynn. Even now, her storyline is half the reason I play the game.
I ran into the same thing the first time around, and it's because Alexis' path is different from everyone else. With other girls, you can choose not to pursue them and remain friends. With Alexis, she basically drops off from the story if you reject her just once during the first chapter.
Nyx has said she regretted doing it like that, but it was too late to change.
She is my second favourite after Erynn
Honestly, I wasn't happy with those LI additions. They are good characters, but scope creep was already a big problem before them, and now it's just going to get worse :/
I enjoy playing BaDIK because I played Acting Lessons, but I would rather play story game sooner than having to wait for animation renders if animation render leads to longer development time. Not every creator have powerful workstation and most ren'py games animation are just pretty bland pixel-humping.
I like the idea that character A and B have sex, the story feels more adult, but the animation itself is overrated. I could do with Intertwined not having animation if we could get more progress on Erynn story, lol.
On too many characters, something like The Entrepreneur is pretty good because there are limited number of characters.
Making a game story where choices would lead to "meaningful variations" would expand the flowchart so wide with more love interests.
But I guess, my notion of limiting love interests would go against the entire idea of Intertwining that Nyx wants to tell.
I just want to read about Elena. And MC wants to help Erynn, so that too. The rest I don't care.
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Your post lacks specific examples (deliberately so, I imagine) so I'll try to answer in the abstract. Is it a good idea to add character and world details that are narratively superfluous?
I'll answer with an example from the latest chapter of Mythos:
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Yea, it was deliberately lacking in examples mostly because all the ones fresh in my mind are from content not yet released.
But yea, you got the essence of the question. The difference for me vs your example I think, is while there's some "payoff" on some of the stuff, a lot of it can just be considered "fluff". That is, just little bits where you learn a little bit about a character or their history or their thoughts/dreams/etc. Nothing that actually matters in the long run, and nothing that will give payoff, just small little things that give the player a little bit of the same insight into the characters as I have from my perspective.
There are *some* elements I have of payoff (Including one that I'm having a lot of fun with personally, though idk how everyone else will reach!), but most are just.... little bits of information that don't and won't matter, aside from maybe helping to understand the characters a bit more. But narratively? Mostly useless.
i don't know if this helps or not. I kinda doubt it but here goes.
Also i'm not a story writer, i just play games. So that too. Anyway:
1) backstory, personality, etc, some games (not talking about AVN, just general), some games they put it on Profiles or Codex.
I know Pale Carnation utilizes a mini-profile, but nothing forbids you from just putting their full backstory on character profiles or past events as codex (or something like that)
2) Bridging A to B without adding development time: I see this in Japanese VNs, they use texts on a location background.
So you said you staged Scene A ---- you staged Scene B. What happens in the "---" is written on full screen texts with a location as the background.
3) In the context that you're asking, "right call" or "wrong call", i think inside your mind or heart you already have a leaning towards what you want to do, but you're at the wondering and wavering stage because the decision is heavy for you (or smthn like that)
If I take example Bare Witness or The Entrepreneur. Compare to other AVNs, both of those games intend to wrap their game pretty quickly just with 5? 6 updates? something like that. Things are pretty concise.
There are also on the opposite side, a game like BaDIK where the entire 8 chapters is essentially just the "beginning". It hasn't reach the "conflict" part yet even. Or Artemis which has 4 chapter out but it's still hasn't come out of the set up part yet.
I think my take on this is, you don't have to be consistent with your decision on that.
Just because your future Chapter 7 (or Chapter 6 is detailed), doesn't mean Chapter 8 (or 7) have to be.
Or just because Chapter 7 is condense version like you initially thought, doesn't mean you can't change your decision, and expand Chapter 8 like you did Chapter 6.
You can just course-correct in the middle from Chapter to Chapter.
Humans changes their decisions. You're allowed to change your decision too on this. You don't have to be consistent on this just because your Chapter 6 is on the long side.
Yeah the game would lose "consistency" but, heck you don't know what happens next in your life either.
Babysitters creator got dealt a shitty hand in life.
Mad World creator had the intent to keep developing the game but next update is still isn't coming yet.
Our Red String variation of paths is probably really heavy too expand for the creator leading to longer development time.
Three Rules of Life just got abandoned (i think?) I didn't play this actually.
Leap of Faith just straight-up dropped plot threads (lol).
I'm not saying you don't have to do your best, not that.
I'm saying you can just do what you "feel like doing" for this (or next) chapter, and then do what you "feel like doing" for the next chapter without having yourself trapped by your past decision.
Heck Summer's Gone dev just gone and rewrite Where It All Began from the beginning right? lol
And I think the average people doesn't really think the game would end that soon either.
tl;dr Just do a long Chapter 7 if you want. Or a long 7 part 1.
And then if it's too much, do a short 7 part 2.
And then do a short Chapter 8
I want to try your game for some time now, just because you're a poster of this thread. Probably I'll play it in like 4 months from now? 5?
Anyway that's why I reply. Because I think I might try your game in the medium-term future.
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I don't think there is much of a difference. My example is also fluff ultimately, since there is no real narrative payoff. Yes, we learn that Monica is not a baddie, but that could have been explained with a single line. Narratively, all that fluff was unnecessary.
More often than not, these details end up being the heart and soul of the whole thing. They allow me to get into the character's head a little bit. If I understand them, I'm more likely to care about them.
Nah I'm not asking what you think I should do or anything like that - I already know what I'm doing. (Also - ch7 is the end of the game. There will not be a ch8.) I'm not worried about "Oh this is too big!" (That's what she said) or anything like that, I'm just wondering if in retrospect I should have stuck to my first thought, or it was better doing what I did, that's all.
Well I like longer. Longer is better to me.
Isn't it just player's preference?
More scenes with the characters makes characters feels even more real.
I'm in similar situation with you in the context that I only read the ones that are already highly acclaimed for the story + I like the premise of. So the list of what I even want to play is very narrow because there aren't many story-first games to begin with. And then I filter that some more with my preference.
Now I either have to go out of my filter or running out of things to play. Medieval times doesn't appeal to me at all so I haven't play any story-first games that are in the middle age-esque era. So either I start playing that or I don't have anything else to play.
The only 2 things left I haven't play is Eternum and My Bully is My Lover. I tried MBML but an early story event was a bit too immersion breaking for me and I temporarily drop it. That just leaves Eternum.
Looking forward to BaDIK next month though. I like playing that . It's light entertainment, but well made. I do think far too much importance is put in the animation even though storytelling is doctorpinkcake's strong point.
My guess would be maybe patreons like animations and so, it has to be put in the forefront. I'm mostly only there for the story. I want to see the meat of BaDIK story because I think Acting Lesson is really good (and not just because of The Main Conflict), it's just the ending of the story landed very well and the story is relatively well-told.
In comparison to Acting Lesson, Leap of Faith ending does not stick very well in my opinion.
Leap of Faith high is very high, but the low is quite low.
Looking forward to eu4ria though. I do think it would be a better story experience for us because Drifty would have more experience from doing Leap of Faith.
I like one specific side character in Artemis so I'm playing it because I want to see their story. But honestly, that in itself is not enough to make me want to pay for it Day 1.
I think Artemis story is 1) too unfocused. At least compared to development time needed to release a chapter.
If Artemis is a novel it would be fine, but it isn't. It's a game with long development time, and in that, 4 chapters out with this little story told, I think it's far too unfocused for my taste.
2) Most of the characters are extremely high acheiver in the way that is wayyy too immersion-breaking for me. Because Artemis world setting is our modern world. It's not a made-up world with it's own rules and logic.
It's our modern world with characters that are as high achieving as the sorority. 1 Kindra makes sense. 6 Kindra is just way too immersion breaking. Many of Artemis sorority girls have as high of an achievement as Half-Kindra (because Kindra being DJ and Genius Programmer is 2x achievement).
Artemis is the 1 game in this site that I think is the most immersion-breaking to me. I don't see Artemis people as "real characters". I still will play the future installments but I'm checked out enough to just wait and not pay for Day 1 release.
That's my take on Artemis after Chapter 3 and it doesn't changer after Chapter 4. The characters are too overpowered in the context of the Our Modern World setting that they don't feel like they could be real people. It's not believable.
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So... if I'm reading you correctly, noping, my answer is that the 'stuff' or context that you added was very much worth it. It particularly gave depth to the LIs and their relationships with each other, in a way that set _Alive_ apart from the crowd.
I respect what you say about allowing the player to 'fill in the gaps' without being explicit about a characters' background. (That's why readers generally prefer the stories they read in novels to filmed versions: reading allows us to create or fill in many details in our mind's eye, which a filmmaker must render explicitly.) But you need to include the broad strokes, or a few cues, to stimulate a player's/reader's thinking.
An example: many of us _loved_ the way that 'the force' was described in the original _Star Wars_ trilogy. It was vague and mysterious, allowing the viewer's imagination to run riot about what it might be. When the detail was 'filled in' in the prequel trilogy (ugh, midichlorians!
) the most esoteric and wondrous aspect of the story popped like a soap bubble. So... I think your instincts are correct.However, you still need to stimulate the reader's imagination with cues or allusions... you can't just leave a blank and expect the reader to fill it in entirely on their own.
This is a long way of saying that having Mary the bathroom woman pop up repeatedly, as a potential free radical that might screw up the other LI relationships, was a brilliant device. We don't necessarily need a great deal of background about her, but hints about why she is the way she is would have made her even more appealing.
Here's a thought experiment: we've spoken about issues with your MC before, and don't want to bang on about it. (I know, I know, it was a deliberate choice.) But, my general instinct is that if you'd filled in the gaps a bit more, in terms of the MC's motivations (or lack thereof) he would be a more compelling figure to role-play. A few broad strokes would have done the job... it would not have required a great deal of detail. A little more, earlier in the game, would have gone a long way.
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Tbh, I would have hated this. I like how Mary ended up and what's happened with her (particularly in the upcoming chapter), having her in that role I would not have liked one bit, and I'm very glad I changed it. That role existing is one thing, but her in particular in it... no no no.
I definitely see the POV you're coming from. Honestly, I'm happy with the way I did it, and don't think I'd change it if I could.... but I'm 99% sure that's colored by my knowledge of what's to come, which obviously no one else has.
An example: many of us _loved_ the way that 'the force' was described in the original _Star Wars_ trilogy. It was vague and mysterious, allowing the viewer's imagination to run riot about what it might be. When the detail was 'filled in' in the prequel trilogy (ugh, midichlorians!
.....
....
Fucking midichlorians. Seriously who thought that was a good idea?
Qualitatively Artemis is one of the best AVNs ever imo and it's only getting better. But rating it from a story-first perspective is a little difficult. I think it can definitely be enjoyed for its story, but a huge chunk of the game is nothing more than fan service.
Anyway, the latest chapter has some pretty major plot development.
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Could you elaborate "fan service" ?
No incest, no harem, no girls getting laid in the blink of an eye, etc...
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There is an entire sorority full of hot women who are all inexplicably single and all inexplicably attracted to the depressed and unemployed nobody that is our MC. And what do you mean "no girls getting laid in the blink of an eye"? Katy literally fucks him within 10 minutes of meeting him
The only sorority member who has any real plot relevance is Reina, and that's only because her company is involved with Cassie. Beyond that, anything to do with the sorority is pure fan service.
There's a sorority full of promiscuous women with only minimal connection to the main story. The PC does have a pretty easy time getting laid, but I also consider the slow burn dates as fan service, because dating shy vampire girls doesn't really have much to do with the main plot of creating an AI and corporate scheming.
Wait what?=) That's not how I remember the game. Guess i do have to read it now