Recommending Story-first games

[MrSilverLust]

And the whole of your post, I think you view me as a self-inserter.
I’m not. In these kind of games, I see myself more of a viewer or reader than a self-inserter.
I think I need to write that on top because that’s the sense I get from reading your reply as a whole.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I think that this indeed helps better explain your point of view.

I guess it was this line that sent me in the wrong direction:

Jen was really my type but even in-game, I'm not gonna cross a line i don't want to cross if the game gives me the choice (at least on main playthrough) and pursuing Jen Path is crossing that line for me.

Given the relationship in question, when you talk about pursuing Jen’s path being crossing a line for you, I interpreted it from an ethical point of view. But:

From a watcher’s viewpoint and story unfolding viewpoint, I want to see Jen’s path unfolding
[...]
Had I known, I would have chose Jen path because I want to see the story unfold.

also explains why recent events could change your mind. And that was basically my question: from what point of view were you looking at this question to make it so that events at the end of chapter 5 could make you reconsider your choice regarding not pursuing Jen.

Which you answered quite well.

There’s still a question here:

Spoiler: my general replay

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Spoiler

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Either way, that is irrelevant now. Your point of view is quite clear now.

Just a final comment about:

However I do want to say that even if you gave some players the short end of the stick, it shouldn't affect your writing process that much in the future either.

*I mean, for accuracy purposes, with the concept of patreon and ongoing game development, sure yeah high-tier patreon members can influenced the author's story development in some regard. But really, the devs telling the story they want to tell is what i want to experience.

So the takeaway is, not only do I not mind, I think you shouldn't mind it either.
If some players gets the short end of the stick, it's fine.

And I agree with that, in general terms. But I also think that, in every story, there’s a

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about what the main conflicts are. And in this case, one of the "promises" made (as in, how the story is presented) is that resisting Jen was the right/noble/honorable thing to do, and I wouldn't like to break that "promise". And I don't think I did.

 

[Raife]

But I also think that, in every story, there’s a

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about what the main conflicts are. And in this case, one of the "promises" made (as in, how the story is presented) is that resisting Jen was the right/noble/honorable thing to do, and I wouldn't like to break that "promise". And I don't think I did.

This is 100% correct. Devs have complete freedom to define their terms, including the nature and stakes of the conflicts in their plot. But, having sketched the boundaries of their universe, they are obliged to stick to them... otherwise the player's ability to suspend disbelief, to roleplay, and to enjoy the game collapses.

 

[HogRocket]

The game actually makes me think. Could I explain, in basic terms, how an A380 works to a medieval person of above average intelligence, by way of analogies with concepts they are already familiar with?

Magic. BIIIIIIIIG Magic

 

[camube]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I think that this indeed helps better explain your point of view.

And I agree with that, in general terms. But I also think that, in every story, there’s a

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about what the main conflicts are.

That looks like a good youtube video. I'm going to watch it over the weekend. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

In the past year, I've read tons of stories and I've seen a lot of bullshit stories in my lifetime though.

I enjoy the experience of consuming stories but the amount of bullshit ending, in-world breaking plot happenings, jump the shark-type of events I've read makes me temper my experience with regard to the premise of "promise between the writer and the reader" idea you pointed out.

Nowadays, I view story more of a "one-way conversation between the author and the readers".

And exactly because it's one-way conversation, sometimes the story just goes off the rails.
Sometimes the story's "train" just transformed into a rocket, entered a black hole, goes into another dimension, and then evolved into something that is "not train".

There's no "train" anymore, the "train" just becomes a distant memory of early chapters.

Yes I've seen stories like this. "promise between the writer and the reader" is a really nice concept, but I've been exposed to bullshit stories where the author just rambled on and break the established in-world ideas because they said so.

It makes for damn entertaining stories though.

and I wouldn't like to break that "promise". And I don't think I did.

That leads me to this part of the reply, no you didn't.

Honestly, if your story is not interesting, I would just drop the game.
Extension to that, I would just not reply your first quote. lmao.

Spoiler

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Spoiler: upon reflection, i think this is why

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[Raife]

Magic. BIIIIIIIIG Magic

Well yes, you could adopt that shortcut. But that strikes me as a pretty effective way to get arrested by the Witchfinder General and hanged, stoned, burned or -- worst of all, from my personal perspective -- pressed to death. (Ugh... no pressing, please!)

 

[Raife]

Hillside's latest chapter is great. It has some long anticipated scenes

Finally played it... thoughts and questions:

• Charlotte's qualms after the incident that ended the last episode are understandable and logical. The MC is even more screwed up, in some ways, than we knew... but that makes sense.
• Do you think that FBI agent will become a LI?
• We now have two quite distinctive branches in the narrative (a Kaylah path and a Lucy path) which feature very different scenes -- impressively, not just sex scenes.
• The Lucy path is much, much better than the alternative route at this point. DarkBlue put a great deal of TLC into it, and it's great. I'm still hoping that the Kaylah path leads to some fierce competition with Charlotte... Dark Blue has certainly breadcrumbed the possibility.
• Lucy is my favourite LI thus far, passing Charlotte. She's the best 'match' for the MC, in terms of how he counters her hangups, and she acts a balm for his self-doubt.

There are so many things this game gets right, although it's not perfect. One big thing is that DarkBlue has given players a great deal of agency without sacrificing the integrity of his MC's clearly drawn personality and mores. There are certain things he will not do, such as pursuing relationships with both Charlotte and Lucy, but you can still influence the story a great deal.

On the reverse of the medal: Blue's decision to make Emma a LI remains fucking terrible. Unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat, I don't understand how that scenario avoids cloyingness, or creepiness... or both.

 

[JuniorTheJunior]

God I love this thread.

Carry on.

 

[jufot]

Do you think that FBI agent will become a LI?

I think she will, but I hope she won't. DB is already struggling with the game as is, adding another LI wouldn't help.

I'm still hoping that the Kaylah path leads to some fierce competition with Charlotte

Fierce but friendly competition would be nice to see.

Lucy is my favourite LI thus far, passing Charlotte. She's the best 'match' for the MC, in terms of how he counters her hangups, and she acts a balm for his self-doubt.

Lucy has some legitimate concerns trusting MC's interest in her, and I think that was handled beautifully. She is likely a better match for the MC, but I can't see how that wouldn't cause some strife with Charlotte. It could easily turn into an ugly love triangle.

On the reverse of the medal: Blue's decision to make Emma a LI remains fucking terrible. Unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat, I don't understand how that scenario avoids cloyingness, or creepiness... or both.

Indeed. He chose to label a 13-year-old as "18", and now I can't see how she'll become an LI without creepily messing up the story.

 

[HogRocket]

Well yes, you could adopt that shortcut. But that strikes me as a pretty effective way to get arrested by the Witchfinder General and hanged, stoned, burned or -- worst of all, from my personal perspective -- pressed to death. (Ugh... no pressing, please!)

That's just my explanation, not how I did it. Me? Magic? Pfft, nooooo. What? You mean this weird ball of purple lighting over my head? It......followed me home and I made the mistake of feeding it....yeah, that's it. Flames for eyes? Noooooo, that's just a reflection, perfectly normal.......

 

[Hildegardt]

On the reverse of the medal: Blue's decision to make Emma a LI remains fucking terrible. Unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat, I don't understand how that scenario avoids cloyingness, or creepiness... or both.

Indeed. He chose to label a 13-year-old as "18", and now I can't see how she'll become an LI without creepily messing up the story.

I was thinking about trying Hillside, but now I'm not so sure anymore. Lolis are only worse in well-written games imo. I hate it when authors get pretentious about statutory rape.


And I played "Price of Power" for the first time now, thanks for the rec. I liked it, other than the edgy monologing by the bodiless entity. Then I felt dumb about skipping through it, when it turned out to be a major plot point.
But I felt like every single character revealing their secrets only bit by bit to keep up the mystery got a little tiring, because so far they never had any satisfying reasons for not spilling the beans. Maybe I missed something, but I think it still hasn't been revealed how Emilia opened the crate and why she thought the liquid she found inside would heal a broken back. Just makes it seem silly that everybody goes along with it, even though they believe in witchcraft and possession and stuff.
I'm curious how the suspense will grow in the future, because so far the heroes kind of get everything handed to them without much struggle.

 

[jufot]

I was thinking about trying Hillside, but now I'm not so sure anymore. Lolis are only worse in well-written games imo. I hate it when authors get pretentious about statutory rape.

You should try, and play it the way most people do - by treating Emma as a little girl who desperately needs a father figure. Through that lens, it's a very good game.

I liked it, other than the edgy monologing by the bodiless entity. Then I felt dumb about skipping through it, when it turned out to be a major plot point.

Benign Narrative Entity (later called Legacy) is my favourite thing about the game!

because so far they never had any satisfying reasons for not spilling the beans

Spilling the beans about what and to whom?

Maybe I missed something, but I think it still hasn't been revealed how Emilia opened the crate and why she thought the liquid she found inside would heal a broken back.

Didn't Michael tell her to make him drink it? The Entity told Michael and Michael told the gang, if I remember correctly.

Just makes it seem silly that everybody goes along with it, even though they believe in witchcraft and possession and stuff.

Isn't that precisely why they should go along with it? It's just another instance of "witchcraft" to them.

 

[Jaike]

The game actually makes me think. Could I explain, in basic terms, how an A380 works to a medieval person of above average intelligence, by way of analogies with concepts they are already familiar with?

No idea how to explain combustion engines to them, my knowledge of them is pretty superficial too, but the first historically verifiable experiments in manned flight took place in the eleventh century, so that part shouldn't be hard:

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It wasn't a complete success because he became cripple because of the landing, but the gliding part worked. It was a reasonably well-known anecdote in the following centuries.

There's a similar story about a Cordoban Abbas ibn Firnas set two centuries earlier, but the attestation is so late that it's completely unverifiable, it could just be a misattribution of Eilmer's story.

 

[Hildegardt]

Spilling the beans about what and to whom?

To me it seems like Jacob, Emilia and Legacy all fulfill the same role of revealing the plot bit by bit.
I mean things like Jacob keeping Maria and Michael apart, then reuniting them to "test" them and not telling Michael that he's his heir. Or Emilia being too traumatized to talk, only to reveal some secrets to advance the plot.

Didn't Michael tell her to make him drink it? The Entity told Michael and Michael told the gang, if I remember correctly.

I went back to see, if I remembered correctly and here is how it went:

Spoiler

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Isn't that precisely why they should go along with it? It's just another instance of "witchcraft" to them.

I mean, what would be the other instances of witchcraft? They know that people get banished for being witches, but they've never actually seen any magic, because it isn't real. And if they believe that the inquisition is rightfully accusing people, then they should be a lot more concerned about getting possessed themselves.

 

[EndlessNights]

Indeed. He chose to label a 13-year-old as "18", and now I can't see how she'll become an LI without creepily messing up the story.

Emma definitely isn't a LI I would consider, but 13 isn't really meant to be her canon age, is it?! I'm so used to characters under 30 acting like teenagers in VNs that I barely take note of the phenomenon any more. I tend to chalk it up to bad writing more than anything nefarious or planned most of the time, but perhaps that's naivete on my part. "College" often seems to resemble an American high school as well...that's even true in Summer's Gone which doesn't have any characters who physically look under 18 IMO.

In Hillside, my only playthrough is a Kaylah solo path which I wasn't sure would actually turn out to be be possible. Pursuing anyone in the family seemed like it would compromise the MC's ability to do his job and perhaps Charlotte and Emma's safety.

 

[jufot]

To me it seems like Jacob, Emilia and Legacy all fulfill the same role of revealing the plot bit by bit.

At that point in the story, they all have good reasons for not being 100% honest / keeping things to themselves. Jacob is just being protective of the younglings, thinking the less they know the better. After being exiled for a long time, Emilia doesn't know if she can trust Michael and Maria. Legacy has to carefully drip feed any information to avoid overwhelming Michael.

I went back to see, if I remembered correctly and here is how it went:

Hmm, interesting. Maybe ask Pandaman over at the game thread? I'd be curious to see his answer.

I mean, what would be the other instances of witchcraft? They know that people get banished for being witches, but they've never actually seen any magic, because it isn't real.

Other instances aren't necessary. It's religion, they don't need to see anything to believe in it. They already believe in a million other things without proof, why would the vials or Legacy be any different?

Emma definitely isn't a LI I would consider, but 13 isn't really meant to be her canon age, is it?!

Canonically, she is 18. Realistically, she is 13, give or take a few years. She talks and acts like a 13-year-old, with the emotional maturity to match.

In Hillside, my only playthrough is a Kaylah solo path which I wasn't sure would actually turn out to be be possible. Pursuing anyone in the family seemed like it would compromise the MC's ability to do his job and perhaps Charlotte and Emma's safety.

Interesting. Kaylah makes it clear that she's only looking for NSA sex, not a relationship. That's fine, of course, but I don't think it'll become a romantic path. When MC can't make time for her due to his duties, she tells him he needs to get his shit together or she's gonna sleep with one of the guys from her modelling gig instead

Emma's safety is no longer a major concern as of the latest update so the MC will definitely have more time to focus on Charlotte or Lucy.

 

[Raife]

And if they believe that the inquisition is rightfully accusing people, then they should be a lot more concerned about getting possessed themselves.

I had questions about this plot point as well, Hilde. Why wouldn't the MC, Maria and Emilia interpret Legacy's appearance as possession, and immediately freak out/abandon the MC? After all, the MC's 'enhancements' as well as his dialogue with an invisible entity fit their society's understanding of possession.

My instinct was that all three of those characters were somewhat 'skeptical' of established authority, particularly church authority, from the beginning... although for different reasons: Maria, because of her understanding of the church's somewhat sordid involvement in politics; Emilia, because of her profession and what happened to her; and the MC, because he's a bit of a loner/individualist. None of them were strong believers, either -- which perhaps explains why they reacted to legacy in ways that were quite different from the way an average 'islander' would have reacted to him.

 

[Raife]

Interesting. Kaylah makes it clear that she's only looking for NSA sex, not a relationship. That's fine, of course, but I don't think it'll become a romantic path. When MC can't make time for her due to his duties, she tells him he needs to get his shit together or she's gonna sleep with one of the guys from her modelling gig instead

That's right, jufot... but I wonder if that changes if a competition (friendly or unfriendly) with Charlotte develops. She tells herself that she'll let the MC go... but is she being honest with herself? Does she really understand her own motivations? I'm less sure. You're probably right that she'll remain a NSA non-LI... but...

 

[jufot]

Why wouldn't the MC, Maria and Emilia interpret Legacy's appearance as possession, and immediately freak out/abandon the MC?

Maria is more scientific minded than most, and Michael is her long-lost childhood love. Emilia knows first hand the nature and consequences of religious moral panic. I'd say they both have good reasons not to freak out and abandon Michael.

That's right, jufot... but I wonder if that changes if a competition (friendly or unfriendly) with Charlotte develops. She tells herself that she'll let the MC go... but is she being honest with herself? Does she really understand her own motivations? I'm less sure. You're probably right that she'll remain a NSA non-LI... but...

It's not impossible, but I don't think it'll go there. Kaylah looks up to Charlotte, especially after what happened on the yacht. If she senses genuine interest in Charlotte, she'd back off. Because NSA sex is fine while Charlotte is seemingly uninterested, but competing for real could end up hurting Charlotte and likely even Emma. I don't see Kaylah risking that.

 

[jufot]

Intertwined's chapter 10 is

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for $15+ tiers. $10+ will follow in 3 days, and $5+ in a week

 

[camube]

Intertwined ch. 10 is really short, if you have the patience to wait, waiting is okay. If I knew it was that short, i would have waited instead.