Recommending Story-first games

[camube]

Back when I added it to the list, the game looked promising. We've had an MC whose girlfriend disappeared mysteriously. He was working a dead-end job and didn't really have much going on. One day, he ran into a suicidal girl, which kind of became the catalyst that woke him up from his stupor.

That was a solid foundation to launch a story from, but it ended up going nowhere. The game turned into a series of scenes where people just hang out and have fun, and any problems are hand-waved away with some corny platitudes. The main story (if you can call it that - I mean Cece's situation) was also left unresolved. Besides her promise not to do it again during that cheesy beach scene, nothing has actually changed for her. Steph has it even worse because she regressed! She went back to the job that caused all of her and MC's problems, with MC's blessing. It doesn't even make sense! And what about MC's family? We meet the father and the sister, and then... what? It went nowhere.

So, when you look beyond all that, what are we left with? A sewage worker meets a popstar, who for some reason invites him and his friends on a private jet flight to her place. They have lots of fun over the next few weeks. Everyone goes back to their lives, and MC ends up with a new girlfriend. That's not much of a story, is it?

Leap of Faith have heart-wrenching moments and at it's core, it's a Cece-centric story because even without picking Cece you still get Cece moments for the main storyline.

So I view it like, the story makes more sense if the MC is pursuing Cece as a love interest. The problem with it is that, as a person I don't see Cece at that point to be needing a boyfriend. She's at a vulnerable and fragile state, having a boyfriend is an additional complication.

I'm always iffy on the choice of pursuing the Cece path, but I did it anyway out of curiosity. But I didn't even complete Leap of Faith last update on the Cece path, I just drop it.

If I were to start playing Leap of Faith today, i probably would skip Cece love interest path entirely. So yeah, while from one side the story makes more sense from Cece path viewpoint, and Drifty does have some things to say about suicide because he's affected by it personally. But on the other hand, i don't see someone prone to suicide to need a new person as a boyfriend. It's an unnecessary additional complication.

Yeah if the boyfriend is good, great. If the boyfriend isn't good for the person, it'd just drive them deeper to the point of no return.

I'm happy to go completely off the rails. I highly recommend this episode of Nova.

You must be registered to see the links

It's beyond fascinating. Apparently, when we remember something, the process of pulling it out of "storage" and then putting it back is a lossy operation. So, when we remember things, our memories of them change. This is partially the reason for why eyewitness accounts are so terribly inaccurate. It's also why athletes who visualize success succeed. Your brain can't tell the difference between "real" memories, and high detailed ones you made up in your head.

And it goes farther. They have people who make use of these aspects of our brains to cure phobias.

If you only watch one Nova in your life ... well, you really should watch more. But if you really do only watch one, make it this one.

Tlaero

I checked it out and I got (This program is no longer available for online streaming.)

 

[sageproduct]

Leap of Faith have heart-wrenching moments and at it's core, it's a Cece-centric story because even without picking Cece you still get Cece moments for the main storyline.

So I view it like, the story makes more sense if the MC is pursuing Cece as a love interest. The problem with it is that, as a person I don't see Cece at that point to be needing a boyfriend. She's at a vulnerable and fragile state, having a boyfriend is an additional complication.

I'm always iffy on the choice of pursuing the Cece path, but I did it anyway out of curiosity. But I didn't even complete Leap of Faith last update on the Cece path, I just drop it.

If I were to start playing Leap of Faith today, i probably would skip Cece love interest path entirely. So yeah, while from one side the story makes more sense from Cece path viewpoint, and Drifty does have some things to say about suicide because he's affected by it personally. But on the other hand, i don't see someone prone to suicide to need a new person as a boyfriend. It's an unnecessary additional complication.

Yeah if the boyfriend is good, great. If the boyfriend isn't good for the person, it'd just drive them deeper to the point of no return.



I checked it out and I got (This program is no longer available for online streaming.)

You said everything I've always wanted to say, everything.

 

[Raife]

I'm happy to go completely off the rails. I highly recommend this episode of Nova.

You must be registered to see the links

It's beyond fascinating.

Tlaero

It's a good one! [Non-Freedomlanders might need a VPN to access this video.]

If you and noping really, really want to go deep into this stuff, I recommend Dan Kahneman's book _Thinking, Fast and Slow_, which delves deeply into the psychology of human cognition. There's a chunky section on memory, as well.

It is not exactly an easy, casual read... although some of his examples and studies are gripping.

 

[Raife]

I checked it out and I got (This program is no longer available for online streaming.)

Use this link:

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Hildegardt]

Leap of Faith have heart-wrenching moments and at it's core, it's a Cece-centric story because even without picking Cece you still get Cece moments for the main storyline.

So I view it like, the story makes more sense if the MC is pursuing Cece as a love interest. The problem with it is that, as a person I don't see Cece at that point to be needing a boyfriend. She's at a vulnerable and fragile state, having a boyfriend is an additional complication.

I'm always iffy on the choice of pursuing the Cece path, but I did it anyway out of curiosity. But I didn't even complete Leap of Faith last update on the Cece path, I just drop it.

If I were to start playing Leap of Faith today, i probably would skip Cece love interest path entirely. So yeah, while from one side the story makes more sense from Cece path viewpoint, and Drifty does have some things to say about suicide because he's affected by it personally. But on the other hand, i don't see someone prone to suicide to need a new person as a boyfriend. It's an unnecessary additional complication.

Yeah if the boyfriend is good, great. If the boyfriend isn't good for the person, it'd just drive them deeper to the point of no return.

I was asking myself if LoF is not story first or if the story is just bad, but I think you convinced me that the story could have been good. Linda's character arc especially is pretty good imo, but only if you don't choose her as the girlfriend.
It seems like the game presents "getting the girl" as the solution to everything, which trivializes the struggles of all the characters. In turn this means that a faithful depiction of depression and suicide will always be tasteless in the context of this game, because it's such a stark contrast to the rest, where you basically just choose a LI for her sex scenes.

Like, the PC supposedly struggled for two years, when Steph disappeared. Steph tells him that it wasn't her fault, but the government's, which the game treats as the truth. Cece, who is a savant at reading faces, says that Steph struggles just as much as the PC. But this all doesn't matter, because at that point in the game you already chose another LI for how she looked in a bikini.
That's why I think the story would have been better, if it only focused on Steph, Linda and Cece. Steph as the LI, Linda as the unlucky ex, who got her whole live fucked over and Cece as the mediator, who reconciles between the two and the PC as her last goodbye to the world.

 

[Raife]

I was asking myself if LoF is not story first or if the story is just bad, but I think you convinced me that the story could have been good.

That's my view as well: it was a promising game that fell well short of its potential. I agree that the story could have been good.

Its primary failing was a lack of focus: there were too many LIs, and this meant that some of their narrative threads were undeveloped or poorly developed.

The MC... was also a lousy character. I did not enjoy role-playing him.

 

[kotte]

Not to go completely off the rails, but I find the entire concept of memory, how we shape it, how it defines us, and just how accurate (and often inaccurate) it is, fascinating. It's one of those things I'll waste a few hours now and then reading about when I have free time, because all of it is interesting to me.

<...> Nothing I'll toy with in my current game, while I immediately thought of a way I could play with the concept in it, I'm not going to go toying with the story at this point, I like where it's headed and I don't wanna mess around with it anymore.

On that topic, does anyone know any games/AVNs that is toying with subjective memories?
Where you can't trust the storyteller (MC or narrator) because their memories are subjective?
Perhaps you get to see the same event from more than one perspective, and can see the differences.

I know of some good books and films with that concept, but I would love to see a good adult game trying it.
And I suppose if anyone tries to make it, it would probably have to be a Story-first game...

 

[boobsrcool]

On that topic, does anyone know any games/AVNs that is toying with subjective memories?
Where you can't trust the storyteller (MC or narrator) because their memories are subjective?
Perhaps you get to see the same event from more than one perspective, and can see the differences.

I know of some good books and films with that concept, but I would love to see a good adult game trying it.
And I suppose if anyone tries to make it, it would probably have to be a Story-first game...

iirc dreams of reality delved into this

 

[camube]

It's a good one! [Non-Freedomlanders might need a VPN to access this video.]

If you and noping really, really want to go deep into this stuff, I recommend Dan Kahneman's book _Thinking, Fast and Slow_, which delves deeply into the psychology of human cognition. There's a chunky section on memory, as well.

It is not exactly an easy, casual read... although some of his examples and studies are gripping.

can i ask which chapters talks about memory? i'd like to skip to that chapter first

 

[moskyx]

Some of you may like A Foreign World. A very large first episode, with only one choice so far, about a bright young adult MC with some mysterious past in law enforcement who stumbles upon a group of female refugees from a parallel universe (which I guess will explain their willingness to become part of the expected harem later on, for cultural reasons). I know it doesn't sound too promising but the fact that the MC automatically declines three offers to have sex with those obviously broken girls means there's something more here than a fuckfest fantasy, as the MC also has his own issues. The girls have some unnatural powers and an all-mighty man from their world challenges the MC to be ready to fight for them in 40 days, which will be the driving force of the game (as well as their efforts to not be wiped out by Earth authorities before that fight). It's an ambitious project due to the large number of LI's involved but I guess the harem focus will make things a bit easier to manage in that regard.

 

[Raife]

can i ask which chapters talks about memory? i'd like to skip to that chapter first

That's basically all of Part V: Two Selves, particularly 'Life as a Story,' which begins on page 386 in my hardcover FreedomLand edition of _Thinking, Fast and Slow_.

If you can wade through any part of Kahneman, I guarantee that you will learn something new about yourself and the world. And, if you're a dev, there's fodder for any number of brilliant story concepts in there... (paging SilverLust)!

 

[Raife]

I've become increasingly resentful of Intertwined's stepfamily storyline. It's not tied to anything else and should have been a separate game.

Nyx needs an editor... or she needs to enforce some form of narrative discipline on herself. _Intertwined_ has a number of great ideas, and a few absolutely brilliant dynamics... but she goes down too many distracting side-passages.

If you hacked out the step-family section and devoted that time to adding depth to the MC's psychological makeup (feelings of guilt or shame, for example, if he pursues simultaneous relationships) and to further developing key LIs, it could be an all-time great game.

Nyx is such a talented dev. I desperately hope that she does not burn out after this latest game, particularly given the random shit she gets from so-called 'fans.' Maybe we should nudge her to seek advice from Tlaero: I never play one of her games and think, 'what the heck is this random section doing in the narrative' -- everything is tightly drawn and well-crafted.

 

[camube]

Nyx needs an editor... or she needs to enforce some form of narrative discipline on herself. _Intertwined_ has a number of great ideas, and a few absolutely brilliant dynamics... but she goes down too many distracting side-passages.

If you hacked out the step-family section and devoted that time to adding depth to the MC's psychological makeup (feelings of gilt or shame, for example, if he pursues simultaneous relationships) and to further developing key LIs, it could be an all-time great game.

Nyx is such a talented dev. I desperately hope that she does not burn out after this latest game, particularly given the random shit she gets from so-called 'fans.' Maybe we should nudge her to seek advice from Tlaero: I never play one of her games and think, 'what the heck is this random section doing in the narrative' -- everything is tightly drawn and well-crafted.

yeah intertwined thread on this forum is pretty bad

 

[jufot]

Chapter 5 of Nothing is Forever is out on

You must be registered to see the links

. I don't want to ruin anything, so I'll keep this spoiler free and just say that my faith in MrSilverLust was rewarded so generously. It's something we've discussed here before, but I figured it was wishful thinking. Well, I'm glad to see I was wrong. You'll see it when you play, it's towards the end of the chapter

Beyond that, this was yet another great episode. I particularly enjoyed the storylines for Deb, Emma and Lea. Yes, Lea! I know I said I've given up on her path (she is still no exhibitionist), but I'm glad I kept the save file around because her dorm room show was so hot! Anyway, I have separate saves for all three of them, but the option to cheat is there as well if you'd like to play with fire. It seems there'll be consequences for doing that though, which is great to see.

I'm hesitant to admit this, but I like Kim's path too. She's dangerous, in more ways than one, and that's what makes her so attractive. I feel bad about pursuing the girlfriend of a friend, but not enough to stop, I suppose. I guess I'll keep that save as a guilty pleasure.

Oh, and let's not forget the very entertaining chess game. It's good to see them return in this chapter. Hopefully, we'll have more of it in the future

 

[Raife]

Chapter 5 of Nothing is Forever is out on

You must be registered to see the links

. I don't want to ruin anything, so I'll keep this spoiler free and just say that my faith in MrSilverLust was rewarded so generously. It's something we've discussed here before, but I figured it was wishful thinking. Well, I'm glad to see I was wrong. You'll see it when you play, it's towards the end of the chapter

Ooooooooooo... what a tease. Not sure that I'll have time to play the update until next week, but that sounds really appealing. I hope that the MC is rewarded -- or properly punished -- for their restraint or lack thereof... if you're referencing what I think you're referencing!

I like SilverLust's craftsmanship. There's nothing extraneous or boneheaded in his game... except for the chess, which is a brilliant eccentricity tied to the plot.

Question: does all the chess in _Nothing is Forever_ make it a 'sports game?'

 

[Raife]

On that topic, does anyone know any games/AVNs that is toying with subjective memories?
Where you can't trust the storyteller (MC or narrator) because their memories are subjective?
Perhaps you get to see the same event from more than one perspective, and can see the differences.

It's not an adult game, but clearly: _Planescape: Torment_. It's my favourite RPG of all time by some distance.

Not going to spoil it. It's a beautiful, semi-profound game. You go into it thinking that you're going to play something familiar, and enter into a kaleidoscope of shifting wonders.

 

[jufot]

Question: does all the chess in _Nothing is Forever_ make it a 'sports game?' Discuss.

In a world where ESPN broadcasts Dota 2 matches, anything can qualify as a sports game, so why not NiF?

 

[camube]

Chapter 5 of Nothing is Forever is out on

You must be registered to see the links

. I don't want to ruin anything, so I'll keep this spoiler free and just say that my faith in MrSilverLust was rewarded so generously. It's something we've discussed here before, but I figured it was wishful thinking. Well, I'm glad to see I was wrong. You'll see it when you play, it's towards the end of the chapter

Beyond that, this was yet another great episode. I particularly enjoyed the storylines for Deb, Emma and Lea. Yes, Lea! I know I said I've given up on her path (she is still no exhibitionist), but I'm glad I kept the save file around because her dorm room show was so hot! Anyway, I have separate saves for all three of them, but the option to cheat is there as well if you'd like to play with fire. It seems there'll be consequences for doing that though, which is great to see.

I'm hesitant to admit this, but I like Kim's path too. She's dangerous, in more ways than one, and that's what makes her so attractive. I feel bad about pursuing the girlfriend of a friend, but not enough to stop, I suppose. I guess I'll keep that save as a guilty pleasure.

Oh, and let's not forget the very entertaining chess game. It's good to see them return in this chapter. Hopefully, we'll have more of it in the future

In real life I really dislike someone like Kim. The only reason I have a Kim path in a secondary playthrough is because I like her character model. And even then, I feel iffy and had second guess myself whether i should have a Kim pt or not.

It's really cool that mrsilverlust gave us a path for casual hook up with Lea. I thought at the end of last update, Lea's path is close forever for the MC.

I don't want to be a dick and lie to Lea so I just said the truth. Turned out the script is turned around and Lea is now okay with it so that's nice. The mc

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

is a bigger surprise for me though. I would have reconsider rejecting Jen if I had the foresight of where the story was heading.

Jen was really my type but even in-game, I'm not gonna cross a line i don't want to cross if the game gives me the choice (at least on main playthrough) and pursuing Jen Path is crossing that line for me. For the mc to just

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I was like, "breh. on second thought, hmm, yeah okay, that's actually good. but still, breh".

 

[jufot]

In real life I really dislike someone like Kim. The only reason I have a Kim path in a secondary playthrough is because I like her character model. And even then, I feel iffy and had second guess myself whether i should have a Kim pt or not.

In real life, I don't automatically dislike someone merely for cheating. I've seen the most devoutly monogamous people fall by the wayside, and when I listened to them explain the why's and how's, I ended up sympathizing with many of them. Not all, but many. People are complex, and sometimes there are no easy answers.

But then, there are people like Kim. The cake eaters. People who are perfectly content (if not happy) in their relationship, but cheat for the thrill of it. Those I detest, but, somehow, in the context of this game, the sheer perversity of it is somehow appealing to me. Hence the guilty pleasure

I don't want to be a dick and lie to Lea so I just said the truth. Turned out the script is turned around and Lea is now okay with it so that's nice.

I've never lied to her either. At first, I wasn't happy with her suddenly being OK with being FWBs because it sounded like porn logic. But when she explained how she only has a semester left and might move away afterwards anyway, it made sense.

The mc quitting his job is a bigger surprise for me though.

That's what I was referring to in my comment I wished it would happen, but I wasn't expecting it.

 

[vneotpolemus]

Oh, and let's not forget the very entertaining chess game. It's good to see them return in this chapter. Hopefully, we'll have more of it in the future

The real reason to back Nothing is Forever.