Recommending Story-first games

[boobsrcool]

Still a shame, though, because the current version is one of my favourite games on this site. I just can't see how a potential harem wouldn't be a detriment, even if done well. That's just not the mood I'm getting from it.

hoping for a solo selene route

 

[TheimmortalP]

I like Rebirth, but I'm not a fan of the MC. Sharon is supposed to be the leader who took the inexperienced MC under her wing, but at this point the dynamic has entirely changed and MC is running the show. It feels completely unearned. It's very much a male power fantasy.

The one saving grace (and the reason it's on the list) is that the game is almost entirely plot. IIRC there has only been one sex scene so far, in 3 years of development. That one was pure maledom, with dubious consent. I wasn't a fan :/

Still, on balance I'm invested in the story and the downsides have been tolerable.

Odd, I've only played the first chapter, but I thought I saw 2 sex scenes. Were they edited out, or do I remember incorrectly?

 

[jufot]

Odd, I've only played the first chapter, but I thought I saw 2 sex scenes. Were they edited out, or do I remember incorrectly?

You may very well be right. Chapter 1 was years ago and I barely remember anything from before MC became a vampire The scene I was referring to was with Carmen.

 

[TheimmortalP]

You may very well be right. Chapter 1 was years ago and I barely remember anything from before MC became a vampire The scene I was referring to was with Carmen.

You become a vampire almost right away actually.

 

[jufot]

You become a vampire almost right away actually.

Like I said, I don't really remember I'll probably play from the beginning when the game is completed, whenever that is.

 

[boobsrcool]

You may very well be right. Chapter 1 was years ago and I barely remember anything from before MC became a vampire The scene I was referring to was with Carmen.

there is also one with sharon

 

[jufot]

there is also one with sharon

Ah, yes, of course! I can't believe I remembered the other and not this one

 

[EndlessNights]

I agree with jufot's general assessment of Between Two Worlds, but one thing I would like to say in its favor is that I haven't seen any other VN do a better job of depicting tabletop RPG sessions. I really liked how the players' real personalities burst out even while they're playing. They go out of character at times and react to what's happening in the game and each other like real people would. I have to confess to having a particular fondness for plots which feature a world within a world or a story within a story that the main characters are aware of and have opinions about such as you see in Ender's Game and VALIS. Between Two Worlds isn't on that level, but it at least does one thing better than even some of the most popular AVNs.

Summer's Gone, for instance, went in a very different direction with its depiction of the tabletop RPG experience. There the players are so immersed in the game and their characters that the game essentially functions completely independently of the main plot. I think there's one choice that lets the MC get closer to a particular LI, but apart from that it's pretty much just a digression that tells us little to nothing about the characters and won't likely have much impact on anything going forward. To me, it's more like the Anselmo, Lothario, and Camilla story contained within Don Quixote...no matter how much you enjoy proto-NTR, that tale is still just a bit of a diversion from the main story.

MC only has eyes for his girlfriend (because he is a gentleman, of course), but sadly has to consider forming a harem because it's what she wants. How could he possibly say no? He loves her!

Well, that's one way to start a harem without tears or recriminations...just wait for your girlfriend to suggest it. In the real world, you might face a really, really long wait so good luck with that. I thought the way that scene played out it depicted Hannah as having something of a wandering eye while the MC got to be the perfect, faithful boyfriend innocent in mind, body, and deed. She's the one portrayed as actively desiring other women sexually and wanting to open the relationship up even if she does want the MC to be in on the action too. You have the choice to keep the relationship monogamous, but I didn't feel like there was any option to really act shocked and offended or accuse Hannah of being less than totally committed to the relationship. Instead, to tell her no feels like the MC wants her to shut down her feelings and confine her sexuality within the bounds he is comfortable with. I personally said yes to the harem primarily because I figured if this was a real relationship Hannah could very well end up leaving the MC for a woman within a year or two anyway so we might as well let him have some other options for the future.

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[jufot]

You have the choice to keep the relationship monogamous, but I didn't feel like there was any option to really act shocked and offended or accuse her of being less than totally committed to the relationship. Instead, to tell her no feels like the MC wants her to shut down her feelings and confine her sexuality within bounds he is comfortable with. I personally said yes to the harem because I figured if this was a real relationship Hannah would probably be leaving the MC for a woman within a year or two anyway so we might as well let him have some other options.

The dev has made it clear that he considers the harem to be canon. The monogamous route is shorter/simpler and is only there to keep all sex optional. It's why Hannah is disappointed if you say no - the dev wants you to go back and say yes

Summer's Gone, for instance, went in a very different direction with its depiction of the tabletop RPG experience. There the players are so immersed in the game and their characters that the game essentially functions completely independently of the main plot.

That's exactly how I felt:

I really didn't like the DnD session. It would have been meaningful if it was used for character development, but no, it's just a random game where none of the players' personalities are allowed to shine. It's like the dev just wanted to stop doing Summer's Gone and work on sci-fi for a while instead, and decided to use SG characters models for it. Remove that entire scene and the game loses nothing :/

 

[Jaike]

I'd love to see more period settings like this, particularly if the dev has the chops to get the historical context right.

There are a few pirate games, but most of them are terrible... and have zero connection to the actual golden age of piracy in the 1600s. A story-based adult game in the style of Sid Meier's _Pirates!_ would be brilliant.

It can take serious work to get enough details right when you go far back in time, even many films with big budgets usually make the same errors and dom't seem to bother. My pet hate are castles with bare stone in interior walls and floors, that's just silly even in fantasy. Getting it right could even look like getting it wrong for the general public.

I've started playing Between Two Worlds after a couple of recommendations here. I'm just past demon lady's second appearance. That's chapter 3, I think? So far, I'm not sold. It seems like the game is just an extended, self-insert wet dream for the developer? I mean, the MC is a late teens AVN developer who is in to anime and DnD, but also a social butterfly who has "always had a girl on each arm". How much more on the nose could you get?

Sounds like that goes beyond "on the nose" and has gone on to "through the nose".

I've only seen one VN with the characters playing a table top RPG and the MC and the LI were big nerds in it.

- MC only has eyes for his girlfriend (because he is a gentleman, of course), but sadly has to consider forming a harem because it's what she wants. How could he possibly say no? He loves her!

That seems similar to the reluctant haremholder type seen in Talothral's games and some others, but raised up a few levels.

MC does come across a bit bland. I think it's because his life consists of showering and hanging out with the LIs. He doesn't really have anything going on. He needs to get a life

Maybe he should develop an AVN and take up anime and DnD as a hobby.

But I exactly did understand it the way noping intended, the MC is rather empty and undefined without a job and overcoming that is the point of the VN.

 

[jufot]

That seems similar to the reluctant haremholder type seen in Talothral's games and some others, but raised up a few levels.

Now that I think about it, since she is the one asking for a harem, why not do it properly? Have a bunch of other guys join her harem alongside MC! And since it's a porn game rule that all harem members are horny bisexuals, the guys should all fuck each other, including the MC!

It wouldn't even be NTR since it's all within the harem. Ohhh it's bloody brilliant!

 

[Raife]

It can take serious work to get enough details right when you go far back in time, even many films with big budgets usually make the same errors and dom't seem to bother. My pet hate are castles with bare stone in interior walls and floors, that's just silly even in fantasy. Getting it right could even look like getting it wrong for the general public.

I don't expect perfection in period games -- just verisimilitude. That doesn't require historiographical research: wikipedia-level effort will suffice.

Your point about excessive accuracy that contradicts popular understandings of history is a good one. But I am not asking for Dorothy Dunnett-esque craftsmanship... just Sid Meier-level efforts to get the broad strokes right.

 

[kotte]

why not do it properly? Have a bunch of other guys join her harem alongside MC! And since it's a porn game rule that all harem members are horny bisexuals, the guys should all fuck each other, including the MC!

*ROTFL* I can just imagine how the game thread (and probably some unrelated threads as well) would be filled with the rage of all those hypersensitive young men that starts complaining if the MC isn't behaving macho enough, or if an LI has ever had another partner than MC...

 

[Hildegardt]

Yeah, I think it's time for LoF to be booted off the list. I've been disappointed with it for a while now.

I see you actually removed LoF from your list. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

 

[jufot]

I see you actually removed LoF from your list. I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

Back when I added it to the list, the game looked promising. We've had an MC whose girlfriend disappeared mysteriously. He was working a dead-end job and didn't really have much going on. One day, he ran into a suicidal girl, which kind of became the catalyst that woke him up from his stupor.

That was a solid foundation to launch a story from, but it ended up going nowhere. The game turned into a series of scenes where people just hang out and have fun, and any problems are hand-waved away with some corny platitudes. The main story (if you can call it that - I mean Cece's situation) was also left unresolved. Besides her promise not to do it again during that cheesy beach scene, nothing has actually changed for her. Steph has it even worse because she regressed! She went back to the job that caused all of her and MC's problems, with MC's blessing. It doesn't even make sense! And what about MC's family? We meet the father and the sister, and then... what? It went nowhere.

So, when you look beyond all that, what are we left with? A sewage worker meets a popstar, who for some reason invites him and his friends on a private jet flight to her place. They have lots of fun over the next few weeks. Everyone goes back to their lives, and MC ends up with a new girlfriend. That's not much of a story, is it?

 

[Hildegardt]

I think I pretty much agree with all of your points. But what I'm personally conflicted about is if LoF is really not a story-first game, or if the story is just not that great.

Back when I added it to the list, the game looked promising. We've had an MC whose girlfriend disappeared mysteriously. He was a working a dead-end job and didn't really have much going on. One day, he ran into a suicidal girl, which kind of became the catalyst that woke him from his stupor.

To me the main plot is a little confused. Like, what's the actual inciting incident? Is it the moment, when the PC gets enticed by Kira's legs (like I did)? Is it him getting randomly picked up by a pop singer? Is it the chance reunion with Steph and her lying about being married? Is it really Cece's suicide attempt? Because it seems like the story could've went on with or without any of these encounters.
Not sure how I feel about calling attempted suicide a "leap of faith", but I also don't know what else the title could be refering to, because the only character that's taking leaps is Cece. The PC doesn't really leap into anything, but is rather passively getting picked up by all the women he gets to meets. If it wasn't for the title, I almost feel like switching Steph's and Cece's role as MC, more than halfway through the game, is a retcon.
In hindsight it makes no sense for Steph to not be the main LI, because the game treats everything she says as the absolute truth. But we have to pick a LI before she gets the chance to confess, so the question is what even is the PC's problem? It's not like he needed any help picking up Kira, Robin and Lexi (besides Chris giving him little nudges) and if you choose any of those three as the main LI, then claiming that he can't get over Steph makes no sense.

The main story (if you can call it that - I mean Cece's situation) was also left unresolved. Besides her promise not to do it again during that cheesy beach scene, nothing has actually changed for her. Steph has it even worse because she regressed! She went back to the job that caused all of her and MC's problems, with MC's blessing. It doesn't even make sense! And what about MC's family? We meet the father and the sister, and then... what? It went nowhere.

It's also silly how much it's emphasized that Linda is in the shit, because everybody abandoned her and they don't want that to happen ever again. Then the next day the party is over and everybody goes their seperate ways... And then Cece getting on a bus all alone is supposed to be a satisfying ending.

So, when you look beyond all that, what are we left with? A sewage worker meets a popstar, who for some reason invites him and his friends on a private jet flight to her place. They have lots of fun over the next few weeks. Everyone goes back to their lives, and MC ends up with a new girlfriend. That's not much of a story, is it?

The simple and boring fact that Lexi is a wealthy and generous pop singer does a lot of heavy lifting for the story progression, but it also just enables fan service like giving the characters a chance to show off their bikini bods all day. The game would've been much better, if it only focused on Steph, Linda and Cece honestly. Why even have a ridiculous backstory like a spy going undercover at a highschool, if that doesn't get explored any further.
Imagine if "Finding Miranda" had you pick a LI from the whole Elsaverse halfway through the game and the choice would only really be about which sex scenes you get to unlock in the gallery.
But I'm still conflicted about LoF, because at least the story is worth discussing. It's just that the dating sim part of the game is such a contrast to the main plot. Picking a LI just for the sex scenes definitely takes away from the story imo.

 

[jufot]

To me the main plot is a little confused. Like, what's the actual inciting incident? Is it the moment, when the PC gets enticed by Kira's legs (like I did)? Is it him getting randomly picked up by a pop singer? Is it the chance reunion with Steph and her lying about being married? Is it really Cece's suicide attempt? Because it seems like the story could've went on with or without any of these encounters.

Indeed, none of these truly stand out from the rest, and Cece's story only came out on top for me because the game is basically named after her.

The game would've been much better, if it only focused on Steph, Linda and Cece honestly.

I think the dev got a bit overexcited early on and started too many threads without a clear ending in mind, and had to abandon most of them when the game ran out of steam. A smaller scope/cast would have been better.

 

[Jaike]

Now that I think about it, since she is the one asking for a harem, why not do it properly? Have a bunch of other guys join her harem alongside MC! And since it's a porn game rule that all harem members are horny bisexuals, the guys should all fuck each other, including the MC!

Female MC when?

Your pitch with a male MC may hit it big with the niche netorase harem audience, pinging Trapitalism101

I don't expect perfection in period games -- just verisimilitude. That doesn't require historiographical research: wikipedia-level effort will suffice.

Your point about excessive accuracy that contradicts popular understandings of history is a good one. But I am not asking for Dorothy Dunnett-esque craftsmanship... just Sid Meier-level efforts to get the broad strokes right.

I think Wikipedia is pretty shit on history in general, many of its small articles only reflect the bias of its writers or in certain cases their paymasters. Just a surface, not superpicky accuracy requires consulting reference works if the setting is in the distant past, so probably a few trips to the library. What I mean is that it's relatively much effort for little gain, you have to actively unlearn a lot of nonsense from popular culture and that is always work and most of the paying public is unlikely to recognise it. I've been writing a short story on and off as a hobby, it's within the specialism of my BA but in a subject I didn't study and getting enough right so it's not pure fantasy is hard.

My point about indoor castle walls having a finish of whitewash, harling or whatever wasn't one of excessive accuracy, but of a bare minimum! Insisting on just the right type of tapestries, wall painting and wood pannelling is picky, expecting that a building in use doesn't look like a ruin isn't. Though it can be entertaining to be picky.

 

[Raife]

I think Wikipedia is pretty shit on history in general, many of its small articles only reflect the bias of its writers or in certain cases their paymasters.

My point about indoor castle walls having a finish of whitewash, harling or whatever wasn't one of excessive accuracy, but of a bare minimum! Insisting on just the right type of tapestries, wall painting and wood pannelling is picky, expecting that a building in use doesn't look like a ruin isn't. Though it can be entertaining to be picky.

To be sure. And I perfectly understood your point about ridiculous popular historical understandings, and lame Wikipedia entries. Amusingly, given what I now do for a living, I have three degrees in history. In an earlier life, I published a couple academic monographs...

But I'd still like to see more period settings in story-first games, provided the dev makes an effort to get the most basic contours right: i.e. no using the tricolour to represent France prior to 1790. I can deal with popular misunderstandings (e.g. pirates flew the jolly roger) but can't stand totally boneheaded stuff.

 

[Raife]

I think the dev got a bit overexcited early on and started too many threads without a clear ending in mind, and had to abandon most of them when the game ran out of steam. A smaller scope/cast would have been better.

This is a recurring issue for story-first devs: less is almost always more when it comes to LIs.

Take _Intertwined_: it would have been a much, much better game if Nyx had limited herself to 3-4 LIs. (Don't get me wrong... it's still a good game... but it could have been great.)