Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

There are no failure conditions involving sex when it comes to Sorcerer. There are two storylines running parallel, the "main" which is the conflict involving Malachai, second is building the base for the house. The former storyline doesn't depend on sex, in fact, you can go through it without sleeping with anyone and still get a good ending, although there might be additional choices unlocked by sleeping with someone, it isn't mandatory.

Cool, I'm really looking forward to seeing how it ends

This is actually mentioned a few times in TRS, maybe not clearly enough, it is a "species flaw" [...] And with Chiel the dice fell how they fell

Well, yeah, I'm aware of that, but, come on... A member of a sexually uninhibited species where a rare "flaw" causes her to form an unhealthy obsession with a single alien, and it's such a weird obsession that she repeatedly declares "he is mine" to everyone around her and yet not only she is a-ok with him fucking around, she actually encourages it?

That feels like an all too convenient porn-logic excuse to let the MC fuck around without feeling guilty (i.e. possessive people care very much about monogamy). All of that could have been resolved realistically by letting Chiel also show interest in fucking others (and no, that wouldn't be NTR) but perhaps I should temper my expectations from these games

And as for the timing issue. I should have shown few bits and pieces from the opposition side to make it clear that the gears were already in motion and there wasn't the luxury of time. That is something I admit freely, it isn't perfect in Sorcerer either but it is more clear that the MC isn't acting at his own preferred pace. But hindsight...

If it helps, I don't get that rushed feeling with Sorcerer at all, so whatever you're doing different is clearly working. I mean, I'm subscribed to your Patreon for a reason

 

[Nyravrod]

Thanks for coming in here and sharing This thread has been a great place to share games with great story and thoughts about those games so it's nice to see a dev from one of those games paying attention.

There are no failure conditions involving sex when it comes to Sorcerer.

That is great news with regards to the Sorcerer story. It is such a good story and world so far, really looking forward to see where this goes.

This is actually mentioned a few times in TRS, maybe not clearly enough, it is a "species flaw". Occasionally Elai becomes obsessed with an individual (or object). They devote their lives to that individual (or object).

I do remember it being mentioned in the world building but I think for me it's a case of what Juflot is mentioning where it's one thing to have a few of those points but all of them at once do make for a much harder pill to swallow when it come to a realistic character personality.

I am really looking forward to what you create moving forward, I see great progress already between TRS and Sorcerer so I am sure to remain a Patron for the forseeable future

 

[Talothral]

That feels like an all too convenient porn-logic excuse to let the MC fuck around without feeling guilty. All of that could have been resolved realistically by letting Chiel also show interest in fucking others (and no, that wouldn't be NTR) but perhaps I should temper my expectations from these games

Shift your perception to point of view of Chiel (or someone who is obsessed with a singular thing). In a certain sense, there is nothing that Garrett can do that makes Chiel hate him, he could eradicate every single member of the Elai species and she would think that "they deserved it". So she sees him sleeping around with her blessing like a good thing. And there is certain twisted logic in what she does, Garrett is "property" of the Sentinel station when the story starts, he is/was just a tool to be used to kill people. Pushing him into relationships with alien dignitaries makes it harder for anyone to use him as a tool for killing from her point of view.

But it isn't a positive trait in any sense despite looking like that, and Sentinel is just one of the stories involving Garrett and Chiel, and it doesn't delve into the negatives it brings. There is an instance where she goes on a killing spree due to what she feels towards him, but that's a different story.

And generally speaking, with any harem-style game, you need to have a bigger suspension of disbelief than in games that focus on singular relationships at a time. It isn't impossible to write a story with a "realistic" harem, but how it works depends on how it is weaved in the story, more often than not the reason for the harem is... flimsy.

 

[jufot]

Shift your perception to point of view of Chiel (or someone who is obsessed with a singular thing). In a certain sense, there is nothing that Garrett can do that makes Chiel hate him

Eh, in my experience people who are singularly obsessed with someone are not at all willing to share any attention, let alone sexual attention.

And generally speaking, with any harem-style game, you need to have a bigger suspension of disbelief than in games that focus on singular relationships at a time. It isn't impossible to write a story with a "realistic" harem, but how it works depends on how it is weaved in the story, more often than not the reason for the harem is... flimsy.

I fully agree! My point was that the harem here undermines your story's integrity in favour of porn. With Chiel's obsession being what it is, I could see 2 ways of keeping things realistic:
- Like any self-admitted obsessive stalker psycho, Chiel could demand monogamy and there would be real consequences for straying. This would even work well with your story, since sexual encounters already have story-relevant consequences
- Or, Chiel's sexual liberalism wouldn't be so one-sided, and she could show interest in sleeping with others, in addition to Garrett and threesomes. Since Garrett's attitude towards sex is already established to be "meh, I like it but don't need it" this would also work well within the universe.

Still, I understand. In AVNs porn will always require sacrificing realism. The only way around it is to not make it porn; i.e. an AVN with sex scenes, but without porn. Such a game would - pretty much by definition - not include a harem, side-stepping the issue entirely

 

[Talothral]

Eh, in my experience people who are singularly obsessed with someone are not at all willing to share any attention, let alone sexual attention.

While I don't disagree with that, when we are talking about humans, we are what our upbringing, environment, and culture shape us. Our culture values monogamy over polygamy (or open relationships for that matter), in fact, it is pushing towards monogamy with laws and traditions. Chiel is raised in a more open culture than ours, her views and values are different from ours, so how does all that change how she reacts to certain things?

And maybe obsession is the wrong word to describe it, dedication is probably a more suitable word for it but it lacks certain emphasis. Well, something to consider about.

 

[jufot]

While I don't disagree with that, when we are talking about humans, we are what our upbringing, environment, and culture shape us. Our culture values monogamy over polygamy (or open relationships for that matter), in fact, it is pushing towards monogamy with laws and traditions. Chiel is raised in a more open culture than ours, her views and values are different from ours, so how does all that change how she reacts to certain things?

By that logic, shouldn't Garrett be the culturally monogamous one ("no babe, I only want you"), while Chiel advocates for polygamy ("come on babe, let's go invite that couple to our bed!") due to her more open culture?

Sentinel is just one of the stories involving Garrett and Chiel, and it doesn't delve into the negatives it brings. There is an instance where she goes on a killing spree due to what she feels towards him, but that's a different story.

Woah woah woah! I missed this the first time around. There are more stories in this universe? Where?

 

[Talothral]

By that logic, shouldn't Garrett be the culturally monogamous one, while Chiel advocates for polygamy due to her more open culture?

That would be assuming that Garrett would be brought up as a normal human, now wouldn't it? He was literally taught how to kill, read, write... and that's it. His exploring anything "normal" started when he met Chiel, or well when Chiel "set him free", then he lost her for a decade. So I'm not certain anything he does can be considered normal by human standards.

Woah woah woah! I missed this the first time around. There are more stories in this universe? Where?

There are 20ish stories written in the Terminus Reach universe, give or take, none of them are published though as they've been more personal projects between other projects. I like to write

 

[jufot]

Well, I suppose we'll never see eye-to-eye on this. But that's OK, it's your story after all

There are 20ish stories written in the Terminus Reach universe, give or take, none of them are published though as they've been more personal projects between other projects. I like to write

That sounds amazing! Any interest in publishing them somewhere? Doesn't have to be VNs at all, ebooks would do just fine

 

[Talothral]

Well, I suppose we'll never see eye-to-eye on this. But that's OK, it's your story after all


That sounds amazing! Any interest in publishing them somewhere? Doesn't have to be VNs at all, ebooks would do just fine

It's honestly about point of view, I've spent so much time writing my characters that they practically live in my head now, and I'm not certain that certain nuances of them come through at times the way I intended.

As for publishing, they aren't in the condition to be published at the moment. But who knows what happens in the future.

 

[jufot]

It's honestly about point of view, I've spent so much time writing my characters that they practically live in my head now, and I'm not certain that certain nuances of them come through at times the way I intended.

That's quite natural. Most characters on any medium are not perceived exactly the same way their author intended, and different readers end up with different impressions. What is important, I think, is that you've managed to create a beautiful non-sexual intimacy dynamic between an MC and his partner, which is so rare in VNs. You definitely deserve all the praise for that

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

Meanwhile I'm still busy with Intertwined.

While it's not perfect (the reasons have been mentioned before) I'm enjoying it so much that I started a whopping 9 (!) different playthroughs to see as much content as possible - that's even surpassing my 6 different routes of Our Red String.

The more time I spend with these rather complex adult VNs, the more I appreciate what their developers are doing.
Designing and keeping track of all these different choices, relationships and routes must be a nightmare.

And that's probably yet another reason why there are so few realistic adult games / VNs:
Making a harem game / VN where all LIs only worship the MC and are oblivious of each other requires significantly less work.

Shoutout to all developers who go the extra mile - your ambition and dedication is appreciated.

 

[jufot]

I'm enjoying it so much that I started a whopping 9 (!) different playthroughs to see as much content as possible - that's even surpassing my 6 different routes of Our Red String.

Glad to hear you're enjoying it! It's funny, I'm pretty much the opposite - the more routes a game offers, the fewer I tend to be interested in. Intertwined is Erynn only, and Our Red String is Ian+Cindy and Lena+Holly

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

Glad to hear you're enjoying it! It's funny, I'm pretty much the opposite - the more routes a game offers, the fewer I tend to be interested in. Intertwined is Erynn only, and Our Red String is Ian+Cindy and Lena+Holly

Totally depends on the game / VN for me - if it's quality content, I have to experience as much as possible (and Eva Kiss and Nyx are definitely up there).


Of course I'm pursuing Erynn to rekindle that childhood friendship (and maybe *cough* a little bit more), but on a different route I'm also going after Nikki who is the most attractive LI for me (I just have a thing for dark haired girls).

My overall favourite character is Layla, though.
A lot of people will probably take her for granted or ignore her and pursue the "hotter" girls.
While I'm not a fan of her (rather overused) DAZ model I totally dig her personality:
She's nice and caring, a total sweetheart - and she's so freaking adorable when she's happy about the MC becoming her boyfriend. In my opinion she's the perfect girlfriend.

And of course I'm doing an obligatory "dork" playthrough where I pick the weirdest dialogue choices and try to piss everyone off as much as possible. Forever alone.


Regarding Our Red String:

I'm also pursuing Cindy in one of my playthroughs - stealing her from Wade is kinda hot, but at the same time I feel super bad about it. Imagine doing that to a long-time close friend of yours...

May I ask why you're particularly enjoying her route? Are you into blondes or cheating (or both)?

 

[jufot]

I'm also pursuing Cindy in one of my playthroughs - stealing her from Wade is kinda hot, but at the same time I feel super bad about it. Imagine doing that to a long-time close friend of yours...

May I ask why you're particularly enjoying her route? Are you into blondes or cheating (or both?)

Excellent question! She's definitely the hottest woman in the game for me, so there's that, but I'm also not that bothered by the cheating aspect.

In real life, I don't judge single people who pursue relationships with committed/married people. If you are single, the other person's relationship is not your responsibility. They are choosing to cheat, and the consequences are on their shoulders. So, Ian choosing to go for someone "taken" is not wrong in my view. This is one of the few relationship topics my wife disagrees with me (Hey honey!)

BUT! The fact that Cindy is with Wade specifically makes it wrong. I would never sacrifice a close friendship for a potential relationship by cheating. If I was in Ian's shoes and I was really into Cindy, I would tell her how I felt about her and why her relationship with Wade doesn't seem healthy, but I wouldn't cheat. It would be up to her to decide what to do about it, including doing nothing. That seems the healthiest approach to me.

 

[jufot]

(I just have a thing for dark haired girls)

So do I! Raven hair is unmatched

My overall favourite character is Layla, though.
A lot of people will probably take her for granted or ignore her and pursue the "hotter" girls.
While I'm not a fan of her (rather overused) DAZ model I totally dig her personality:
She's nice and caring, a total sweetheart - and she's so freaking adorable when she's happy about the MC becoming her boyfriend. In my opinion she's the perfect girlfriend.

Layla is a great friend to my MC, but there is just something so... electric about Erynn, I can't seem to pursue anyone else

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

She's definitely the hottest woman in the game for me

She is definitely hot.
However, if she were a real person, I would most likely be turned off by her personality.
She's moody, self-centred and materialistic - so pretty much the exact opposite of what I find attractive in a woman (or a person in general).

but I'm also not that bothered by the cheating aspect.

In real life, I don't judge single people who pursue relationships with committed/married people. If you are single, the other person's relationship is not your responsibility. They are choosing to cheat, and the consequences are on their shoulders. So, Ian choosing to go for someone "taken" is not wrong in my view. This is one of the few relationship topics my wife disagrees with me (Hey honey!)

Hm.
As long as the single doesn't know about the relationship - or the relationship is already unsalvageable (and both partners know it) I'd agree with you, but if the single knows about the relationship and actively tries to woo someone, tempt them into cheating, it's definitely a dick move.
So overall I guess I have to agree with your wife. Is she available? Kidding.

Layla is a great friend to my MC, but there is just something so... electric about Erynn, I can't seem to pursue anyone else

I think it can work both ways.
Erynn is surely a nice person - and a childhood friendship evolving into something more is definitely a good call.
What I found slightly off-putting is her overdone super model face, especially those weird looking (upper) botox lips.
To me she looks like she had too much surgery.
I also prefer the guy to be the older one (or at least the same age) - not the other way round.

But as always: Different strokes for different folks.

 

[jufot]

She's moody, self-centred and materialistic - so pretty much the exact opposite of what I find attractive in a woman (or a person in general).

Hmm. I'll give you moody, but I think that's because of Wade. I'd be moody if I was dating such a lazy snob as well Self-centered? A bit, maybe. In small doses, selfishness is good for a relationship as it helps you avoid codependency. As for materialistic, is she? I don't remember anything particularly outrageous.

So overall I guess I have to agree with your wife. Is she available? Kidding.

She is also on F95, so I'm sure she'll get in touch if she's so inclined

What I found slightly off-putting is her overdone super model face, especially those weird looking (upper) botox lips.
To me she looks like she had too much surgery.

Well, she is a model, but fair, it's a bit overdone.

I also prefer the guy to be the older one (or at least the same age) - not the other way round.

I don't mind age differences in any direction as long as it's within the

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. Otherwise, it's just creepy

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

Hmm. I'll give you moody, but I think that's because of Wade. I'd be moody if I was dating such a lazy snob as well Self-centered? A bit, maybe. In small doses, selfishness is good for a relationship as it helps you avoid codependency. As for materialistic, is she? I don't remember anything particularly outrageous.

I don't think you can put all the blame on Wade. I think she definitely has an attitude.
Also don't forget her bad temper whenever she's losing.
I agree that a certain degree of selfishness is healthy, but she seems to have quite the ego.
I recall several occasions where she appeared rather materialistic and also stingy (never bringing beer, always expecting others to pay).

I would be so amused if Ian and Cindy become a thing and their relationship turns out to be a total dumpster fire - with Wade watching and having the last laugh.

 

[jufot]

(never bringing beer, always expecting others to pay).

Yeah, that's fair. I'd be pissed too.

I would be so amused if Ian and Cindy become a thing and their relationship turns out to be a total dumpster fire - with Wade watching and having the last laugh.

Honestly? That would be amazing, if EvaKiss would have the proverbial balls to do it. Never gonna happen though. Just imagine the outrage

 

[Raife]

I would be so amused if Ian and Cindy become a thing and their relationship turns out to be a total dumpster fire - with Wade watching and having the last laugh.

Creating a disastrous head-fake LI would be both tremendous and true to life... hot sex does not always a great relationship make. But jufot is right -- the hate poor Eva would get from the monkey cage crowd would be epic.

I like Cindy. She's what a retrograde man who grew up in the 90s like me would call 'high maintenance' -- in other words, she requires considerable attention, positive reinforcement and TLC if a relationship with her is going to work. Wade, who seems like a decent guy (despite his laziness) is 100% wrong for her, at least at this stage in his life. Ian, played a certain way, could be right for her.

High maintenance women often get an unfairly bum rap. But high maintenance need not mean selfish or self-centered... or ungenerous, or unkind. They just require an active, attentive partner if they are going to flourish. Perhaps as we learn more about Cindy, we'll discover that she's a bad 'un. But perhaps not.

Contra jufot, I don't think single people get a moral carte blanche if they seduce an individual away from their committed partner. It violates what Christians call 'the Great Commandment' ('do unto others as you would have others do unto you'/treat others as you would like to be treated) an idea that underpins most other moral systems, too.

But exploring these dark grey areas with the MCs is what makes _Our Red String_ so interesting. Ian might be able to build a great, loving relationship with Cindy that could make her 10X happier than she is now with Wade... but at what cost? What if Ian could restore her relationship with Wade... but in a way that makes it clear that Wade could never make her as happy as Ian could? Those are interesting questions.