Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

I'm all in favour of games that have hidden layers of detail and codex-like reading. My favourite game of all time, Planescape: Torment, had a massive amount of text to sift through -- both dialogue and description.

PT was really great! Looking back, pretty much all of my favourite text-heavy games were from the late 90s/early 00s. I can think of very few from the last decade that are like that.

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, for example.

 

[Nyravrod]

Personally, I _love_ stories that have a great deal of slowly-building erotic tension, background worldbuilding, and compelling characters... the sex is just the icing on that cake.

Yes 100% yes, give me a slow building relationship filled with erotic tension and characer developement any day over a sex filled nonsense festival where none of the world of characters intentions make any sense.

I wouldn't say that the sex and eroticism is just icing on the cake. I think what makes Adult games an interesting genre is their ability to cover and show those topics. Since sex and eroticism is a large part of a relationship I feel like it allows Adult games a unique perspective to craft and showcase stories depicting "real" and compeling romance/relationship journeys.
But as a genre of game and storytelling it still relies on the same basics as other form/genre of storytelling where solid world building, character growth and depth and many other important building blocks of storytelling are key. It's simply that the scope of what can be covered and showed is expanded.

I think a large part of that debate is the difference between people looking for a porn game vs people looking for an adult game. Since this site contains both it makes it difficult to judge and have constructive discussions since some people are looking for a story that happens to be Adult while others are just looking to get themselves off.
It's almost like if we had one website with both netflix and pornhub content merged and tried to have a constructive comment section.

It's hard to make a parallel with TV and Movies since in those mediums adult content is not really a thing (we could probably have a very long debate as to the impact of US puritanism on medias in larger culture but we might veer a bit off topic )
However in other medium that is not an issue, I grew up in France and graphic novels was a big part of my culture, there is a large number of Adult graphic novels marrying compelling story and adult content in European graphic novels and this has been the case for a very long time.

I just hope we can get to a place where similar to those graphic novels the talent and effort put in by our favourite Adult games creators is recognised and that medium can grow a bit.

Looking back, pretty much all of my favourite text-heavy games were from the late 90s/early 00s. I can think of very few from the last decade that are like that.

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, for example.

I played Disco Elysium for the first time this summer and I was absolutely smitten by the world building and how close to a true roleplaying experience that was. Absolutely loved that game.

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

Did anyone play Color of My Sound? I just discovered it. On one hand, it has exquisite world building and the beginnings of a great story. On the other, the developer says it's an "anime harem game" and the developer notes confirm a willingness to undermine the story for porn logic. The first chapter is out, and there are already examples of this dilemma.

I did. Oh boy...

I almost quit already during the opening (sex) scene ("Fuck my virgin pussy!" ), but continued reading.
The following sci-fi story is actually pretty well written with interesting characters and cohesive worldbuilding.
However, the writer has no qualms to waste well-established characters in cheap and implausible sex scenes.
The second explicit scene is just as awful as the first one and made me quit for good.

It felt like savouring a good wine - and suddenly someone is pouring cola in your glass. Gruesome.

I think a large part of that debate is the difference between people looking for a porn game vs people looking for an adult game. Since this site contains both it makes it difficult to judge and have constructive discussions since some people are looking for a story that happens to be Adult while others are just looking to get themselves off.
It's almost like if we had one website with both netflix and pornhub content merged and tried to have a constructive comment section.

Well said.

However, the transitions are fluid.
Of course there are games which can be easily classified as either story-driven adult games or lightweight porn games, but there are also games that strive for a good balance of both. It also depends on the setting.

Take for example

https://f95zone.to/threads/the-night-driver-v0-6-blacktoad.68951/.

It features lots of raunchy sex scenes, but since the (rather well written) story is set in the seedy underworld of crime and prostitution these scenes seem somewhat plausible.

It's also an actual (point & click) game made in Unity - so that's a nice breath of fresh air.

 

[Raife]

I think a large part of that debate is the difference between people looking for a porn game vs people looking for an adult game. Since this site contains both it makes it difficult to judge and have constructive discussions since some people are looking for a story that happens to be Adult while others are just looking to get themselves off.
It's almost like if we had one website with both netflix and pornhub content merged and tried to have a constructive comment section.

You're spot on Nyra -- this is a dilemma. This site has to cater to both the (fringe) Netflix crowd and the (vastly larger) porn-first group. I understand and sympathize with the priorities of the 'pornistas': sometimes you just want a good fap, and some games are better equipped to provide that than others. It's also unfair to compare story-first adult games with porn games. As the American movie critic Roger Ebert was wont to say, you should not rate films without reference to their genre; _Terms of Endearment_ and _Total Recall_ are both good films... but they are trying to accomplish totally different things.

If I've grown tetchy over time, it's because the porn-first crowd has pressured devs into adhering to certain porn-y tropes, which tends to kill the possibility of high quality, erotic, well-written adult games. Since the pornhub crowd is so much larger than our merry story-first guild, it tends to shape the site... and the market... to its preferences. I understand that dynamic well... but still find it pretty irritating, not least because it has blown up more than a few promising story-first games.

There will always be a ton of porn-first games out there... devs that produce story-first adult games need more support and encouragement.

 

[jufot]

I almost quit already during the opening (sex) scene ("Fuck my virgin pussy!" ), but continued reading.
The following sci-fi story is actually pretty well written with interesting characters and cohesive worldbuilding.
However, the writer has no qualms to waste well-established characters in cheap and implausible sex scenes.
The second explicit scene is just as awful as the first one and made me quit for good.

I couldn't agree more. Especially that first scene.... ugh! I mentioned that earlier in the thread (see below) so I hope it wasn't too much of a surprise

Literally the first scene in the game I mentioned has a woman - a total stranger - approaching the MC on the street and telling him how she likes him, how she isn't like "those other girls", and that she wants to lose her virginity to him. The game never elaborates on the why because obviously, who cares? The MC certainly doesn't

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

I was just about to thank everyone for recommending Intertwined and express my delight at how refreshingly different it is written.

I also wanted to jokingly mention the fact that the opening scene on the plane is devoid of the obligatory sex with a stewardess.

But then I told myself: At least wait for the end of the flight before posting any praise.

And lo and behold:
Turns out you either have sex with Alexis or receive a blowjob from the stewardess.
There is a loophole to avoid these scenes altogether, but since they get practically shoved in your face I assume the writer wanted either of them to happen.

So much for "realistic story". I'm so immensely disappointed right now.

 

[jufot]

So much for "realistic story". I'm so immensely disappointed right now.

I understand, agree, and empathize with your frustration, but I'd urge you to stick with it. That flight scene is pretty much the only major blemish on an otherwise excellent game and, as you said, both are avoidable. The stewardess is a very minor character that almost never appears again, and Alexis can be permanently cut off pretty much immediately after the flight

Yes, ideally that scene should never have existed, but it gets better much pretty much immediately afterwards. From what I've gathered on Discord, Nyx (the dev) is also unhappy with many aspects of the early bits, so I doubt she'd repeat something like that again

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

I understand, agree, and empathize with your frustration, but I'd urge you to stick with it.

Thanks for your encouraging words - and yes, I'll stick with it (for now).

The first half of the flight scene was so well written - and then out of nowhere: porn logic alert.

The bathroom scene would have been so much better if it had just been a prank by Alexis.
Both of them had already been in a joking mood before, so in case the MC followed her to the bathroom she should have made fun of him: "What, did you expect us having sex on a plane? Haha!"

And the blowjob scene with the flight attendant - sorry, that's just utter bullshit.

And no, I don't want to avoid Alexis at all - in fact I quite liked her up until the bathroom scene and looked forward to exchange telephone numbers with her (like normal people would do).

Unfortunately, if you want to avoid the sex scene, both Alexis and the MC spend the rest of the flight in silence and part without saying goodbye. Very unsatisfying...

But I'm glad to hear that Nyx is aware of these issues.

 

[jufot]

The bathroom scene would have been so much better if it had just been a prank by Alexis.

Honestly, your version sounds much better.

And the blow job scene with the flight attendant - sorry, that's just utter bullshit.

That scene didn't even register for me really, I chose the "sorry, I'll go back to my seat" option and promptly forgot about her. I recommend doing the same

And no, I don't want to avoid Alexis at all - in fact I quite liked her up until the bathroom scene and looked forward to exchange telephone numbers with her (like normal people would do).

That's fair Just keep in mind that - unlike literally any other character - it is trivially easy to accidentally (or intentionally) cut yourself off from 99% of the Alexis storyline. Pretty much any negative response to her at any point terminates not only the relationship, but also any potential friendship. It's a historical error by Nyx, and other friends & LIs are not like that.

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

Pretty much any negative response to her at any point terminates not only the relationship, but also any potential friendship.

I read a bit further.

Fortunately, you will meet her again on the next day and get another chance to keep the relationship going.
She seems to be a very sexual person because she will try to hook up again.

On my current playthrough I'm more interested in a slowly evolving romantic relationship, so I guess I'll give her a pass for now and save her for a future "womaniser" route.

 

[Raife]

I read a bit further.

Fortunately, you will meet her again on the next day and get another chance to keep the relationship going.
She seems to be a very sexual person, because she will try to hook up again.

On my current playthrough I'm more interested in a slowly evolving romantic relationship, so I guess I'll give her a pass for now and save her for a future "womaniser" route.

So... as I told jufot, I'm very much of two minds about this game.

On the one hand, it does have those porn-y tropes (including the porn logic that taints the plane scenario and I half suspect is also driven by the market demand to have sex in Episode 1).

On the other hand, it is great at sharing the female LIs' perspectives -- including Alexis's thoughts about _why_ she feels the way she does about the MC... it's animal attraction/female sexuality, not 'magic penis.' It's also very good at exploring the friendships between the female LIs, and the disruptive effects a man can have on them (or not, as the case may be).

I suspect that the

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It's a Tier 3 game for me, but with some Tier 2 features. Imperfect, but with a few strong elements.

 

[Raife]

I have no such qualms about _Hillside_, particularly after the latest episode... what a great story.

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[jufot]

For the past few days, I've been playing Terminus Reach: Sentinel. It's an already completed game from the developer of Sorcerer.

Like Sorcerer, Sentinel also has deep world building and it's easy to lose yourself in its world. I quite enjoyed reading through it.

Garrett's (the MC) relationship with his lover/girlfriend/wife Chiel is so extremely well done, I'm kinda amazed. I've never seen anything like it in an AVN. She is smart, confident, witty and playful. There are extreme amounts of casual, non-sexual intimacy between them. Even in the presence of others, in completely non-sexual contexts, they are almost always in physical contact with each other - holding hands, touching cheeks and so on. The nature of their relationship and the reasons for their closeness is well explained, and it makes perfect sense.

Very unusually for an AVN MC, Garrett is not particularly interested in sex. In his words, he doesn't see anyone as sexual objects. He doesn't crave sex, he likes it, but doesn't miss it either. Which is why Chiel is pretty much always the one who initiates things. She is a horny little minx from a species with... fewer social inhibitions than humans. This occasionally translates into her inviting others to their bed. Garrett's game for it (if the player so chooses) but you can tell it's usually for the benefit of others, including Chiel.

One particular after-threesome scene really made an impact on me with how realistic it was written:

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This is pretty much the perfect way to address the anxiety one might have after having sex with a couple, and I was pleasantly surprised to see it.

There is one other thing, though I'm not sure if it's good or bad. The ending is dramatically affected by whether you've chosen to have sex with certain individuals throughout the game. I think it takes guts to write a story like that (I absolutely love when decisions have serious consequences) but on the other hand, this is never telegraphed in the game - I was completely blindsided with it at the very end, and I had to decompile and read the RenPy script to figure out what the fuck just happened. Hopefully, that won't happen with Sorcerer's ending.

But anyway, TR:S was very enjoyable and has some uniquely well-done relationship dynamics. I'd recommend it!

 

[Nyravrod]

For the past few days, I've been playing Terminus Reach: Sentinel. It's an already completed game from the developer of Sorcerer.

I've been doing the same and am definitely backing Talothral on Patreon, we need more like this.

I love the Garret/Chiel relationship you can really tell the amount of intimacy and trust they have with each other it's impressive the level of detail in their personality we can get out of a relatively short VN.

Very unusually for an AVN MC, Garrett is not particularly interested in sex. In his words, he doesn't see anyone as sexual objects. He doesn't crave sex, he likes it, but doesn't miss it either. Which is why Chiel is pretty much always the one who initiates things. She is a horny little minx from a species with... fewer social inhibitions than humans. This occasionally translates into her inviting others to their bed. Garrett's game for it (if the player so chooses) but you can tell it's usually for the benefit of others, including Chiel.

That was also something that stood up to me, it's refreshing to have a VN with a hefty dose of sexual content where the MC is not just a horndog and using Chiel to drive that sexual path is an interesting twist and is fully in character with her species.

There are also some interesting topics touched upon such as body dysphoria, not sure how well it's approached (I can't judge something I never faced) and it is a difficult topic but I think overall it made sense with the character and was done tactfully (from my limited understanding).

There is one other thing, though I'm not sure if it's good or bad. The ending is dramatically affected by whether you've chosen to have sex with certain individuals throughout the game.

I think this is a very good point and will definitely be hit or miss for some people, I personally don't mind if some decisions have a very big hidden impact, especially if the story is good as I probably will replay it and it gives me the opportunity to discover new path and be surprised by it. However I can totally understand the feeling of being blindsided and disapointed in an ending forced by much earlier choices.
Might be the case where a very light in game walkthrough with just hints at key decisions could help some people enjoy it more ?

 

[jufot]

There are also some interesting topics touched upon such as body dysphoria, not sure how well it's approached (I can't judge something I never faced) and it is a difficult topic but I think overall it made sense with the character and was done tactfully (from my limited understanding).

Likewise, it's not something I have experience with it, but I wish it was explored a bit further. Aegis' body image issues are important, especially because of how she came to be like that, but that whole storyline was hand waved away. When Garrett confides in Nova about Aegis' situation, she basically dismisses it with "oh, she sometimes gets in a mood like that" and it's never mentioned again.

However I can totally understand the feeling of being blindsided and disapointed in an ending forced by much earlier choices.

For me, this kind of happened because I've decided early on that Garrett would only have sex with others if Chiel is present and actively involved. It's how I would behave in that situation, so I just went with it. Unfortunately, that means no sex with Nova or any of the ambassadors, and you can't get the good ending without them. It should have been possible to build friendships with them to secure their support, without having to sleep with them.

I'd prefer impactful choices to be about the story and the characters, not sex, and that's where the game failed for me I think.

 

[Nyravrod]

Likewise, it's not something I have experience with it, but I wish it was explored a bit further. Aegis' body image issues are important, especially because of how she came to be like that, but that whole storyline was hand waved away.

True, it felt a bit waved away and could have been explored more. Nova about Aegis' relationship is one that I wish would have been expanded upon more, they are supposed to be very close friends and have a strong bond but it didn't feel as well portrayed in the story and I think things like dismissing Aegis' issues are definitely part of that shakiness in the characters I felt.

For me, this kind of happened because I've decided early on that Garrett would only have sex with others if Chiel is present and actively involved. It's how I would behave in that situation, so I just went with it.

I'd prefer impactful choices to be about the story and the characters, not sex, and that's where the game failed for me I think.

I do agree that story branching based on sex choices is a shortcoming of the game, it made sense to a certain degree for some of the characters due to the explained cultures and species in place in the world but imposing this onto the player is bound to create issues such as yours.

I didn't have as much of an issue because I ended up role playing in a different way. Since Chiel is adamant early on about the fact that sex is an integral part of how some of the ambassadors (I think the Ot'ai was the first ones) way of building trust and alliances. I decided that it was a case where Garrett was going to be pushing his own comfort zone and trust on Chiel's enthusiasm and push. I felt like it worked well since the story moves with her feeling kinda proud of Garrett's actions in that path. But I'm not surprised that this is going to be an issue for many players based on their decisions. Hopefully it can be a learning point for the dev, however I feel we may see a similar trope in Sorcerer (From the patreon updates it feels like we are only one or two updates away from the ending or at least a large resolution). Maybe for the next VN they work on....

 

[jufot]

Nova about Aegis' relationship is one that I wish would have been expanded upon more, they are supposed to be very close friends and have a strong bond but it didn't feel as well portrayed in the story and I think things like dismissing Aegis' issues are definitely part of that shakiness in the characters I felt.

It feels like the last third of the game was rushed quite a bit and interpersonal dynamics were just suddenly abandoned to quickly wrap up the main mystery.

I felt like it worked well since the story moves with her feeling kinda proud of Garrett's actions in that path.

True, but honestly that was too much porn logic for me. I mean, what a coincidence that Chiel:

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Going along with that would require too much suspension of disbelief for me

I feel we may see a similar trope in Sorcerer (From the patreon updates it feels like we are only one or two updates away from the ending or at least a large resolution).

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about it as well. Let's hope it'll be better than that.

 

[Nyravrod]

True, but honestly that was too much porn logic for me. I mean, what a coincidence that Chiel:

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Yeah different level of suspension of disbelief, I didn't have an issue with the first two points you raise based on the premise of the culture and world however I absolutely had a hard time with that 3rd point.... Made no sense whatsoever to me that someone as liberate sexualy as Chiel does not pursue sex with others Also was a missed opportunity to setup some tension in the main relationship and things to workout and resolve. But maybe that was too short of a VN to explore that well. As you said it does feel like the last third of the game was rushed to close the story.

 

[jufot]

I didn't have an issue with the first two points you raise based on the premise of the culture and world however I absolutely had a hard time with that 3rd point.... Made no sense whatsoever to me that someone as liberate sexualy as Chiel does not pursue sex with others

Right! By themselves, none of those points are dealbreakers and can be rational and realistic. But all of them? Come on

Sadly, you can't improve realism on that front without attracting attention from the screeching anti-three-letter-crowd, despite the fact that consensual non-monogamy is - by definition - not NTR. Oh, well

 

[Talothral]

There is one other thing, though I'm not sure if it's good or bad. The ending is dramatically affected by whether you've chosen to have sex with certain individuals throughout the game. I think it takes guts to write a story like that (I absolutely love when decisions have serious consequences) but on the other hand, this is never telegraphed in the game - I was completely blindsided with it at the very end, and I had to decompile and read the RenPy script to figure out what the fuck just happened. Hopefully, that won't happen with Sorcerer's ending.

And after someone poked me about this...

There are no failure conditions involving sex when it comes to Sorcerer. There are two storylines running parallel, the "main" which is the conflict involving Malachai, second is building the base for the house. The former storyline doesn't depend on sex, in fact, you can go through it without sleeping with anyone and still get a good ending, although there might be additional choices unlocked by sleeping with someone, it isn't mandatory.

Edit: Actually, I lied, there is one failure condition regarding it, but it only comes to effect if you failed two or three other choices. So there is a way to remedy that still.

The second storyline, the house, is more dependant on the relationships you build, but again you can get through it without sleeping with everyone that you come across. Technically, it is possible to go through it without having sex with anyone and still come out alive. The epilogue will be interesting to write in that case...

Yeah different level of suspension of disbelief, I didn't have an issue with the first two points you raise based on the premise of the culture and world however I absolutely had a hard time with that 3rd point.... Made no sense whatsoever to me that someone as liberate sexualy as Chiel does not pursue sex with others Also was a missed opportunity to setup some tension in the main relationship and things to workout and resolve. But maybe that was too short of a VN to explore that well. As you said it does feel like the last third of the game was rushed to close the story.

This is actually mentioned a few times in TRS, maybe not clearly enough, it is a "species flaw". Occasionally Elai becomes obsessed with an individual (or object). They devote their lives to that individual (or object). This is actually a side effect of the way I create the species and characters, big spreadsheet and set of dices, and then just writing with whatever the results are. And it doesn't exactly help that you don't see any other Elai acting like that towards something or someone. It's something like 1 out of 100,000 individuals, forgot the exact ratio of it. And with Chiel the dice fell how they fell...

And as for the timing issue. I should have shown few bits and pieces from the opposition side to make it clear that the gears were already in motion and there wasn't the luxury of time. That is something I admit freely, it isn't perfect in Sorcerer either but it is more clear that the MC isn't acting at his own preferred pace. But hindsight...