Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

I've also gotten reactions for talking about LI agency, like how many of the fragile egos can't allow LIs to spend intimate time with each other if the MC is not around. They consider it NTR even though the two LIs are still with the MC.

As far as I'm concerned, female LI agency, strength, power and mystery is at the core of what I look for in a great story-driven game. I want to read about powerful, desirable, ambiguously-motivated women... in other words, women like those one encounters in life. Relationships with such women are difficult and complicated -- and frequently involve competition (or at least attention) from other men...

...which is why, Dragon, you're spot on to connect it to the wacko NTR-labelling fanaticism that exists on these boards. Quite a lot of male members on this site assiduously avoid games with realistic depictions of female LIs and their relationships with men... which I find very, very odd indeed. It doesn't strike me as a healthy attitude, anyway.

 

[Raife]

Not at all over-dramatic. I was practically forced off the Hillside thread after I posted this comment. The comment itself has a few likes, but the replies quickly turned nasty and I gave up :/

Hoooboy -- this is turning into a therapy session, but I remember your intervention there, jufot (and 'liked' it at the time). There are a substantial number of people around this hellsite who have absolutely bizarre attitudes towards women and women's sexuality... to the point where it's very easy to draw conclusions about their apparent lack of real world experience with said gender (and why).

I gave up trying to engage with such members long ago, jufot... and, as you know, have literally rodeo-clowned a thread sometimes to save you the trouble of a brawl. It's really not worth the aggro you put yourself through... although I admire your motivations.

But to get back on topic: great story driven games must have great female characters to really draw my interest. They can be manipulative and sometimes harsh, like Elsa from _CC_, or wounded and brave like Charlotte in _Hillside_ -- they can have any traits, really -- but they must be true to life. Virgin-friendly wish fulfillment-types _definitely_ do not fall into that category. (I'm going to abbreviate that as VFWF outside this thread, from now on... chiefly in order to avoid starting fights!)

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

Not at all over-dramatic. I was practically forced off the Hillside thread after I posted this comment. The comment itself has a few likes, but the replies quickly turned nasty and I gave up :/

I'm honestly surprised you even received that much approval (likes). Seems like humanity isn't lost yet...
But yeah, I feel you.
Seems like a lot of people on these forums use their wrong heads - if you catch my drift.
That's why I pretty much gave up getting into arguments. It's simply not worth the hassle.

Very true. I've literally seen someone on this forum say "if the MC is walking in front of a house and they are having sex inside, that's NTR." Once someone is that far gone, there is no point arguing with them because you don't even share the same frame of reference, let alone the same argument.

"NTR" is probably the most abused term on these forums.
I imagine the evolution of its meaning like this:

1. NTR = a LI, who's in a relationship with the MC, is having sex with another man.*
2. NTR = a LI, who's in a relationship with the MC, is having sex with another man.
3. NTR = a LI, who's in a relationship with the MC, is having sex with another man.

* Simplified explanation - of course NTR implies more than just cheating.

That's why this thread is so precious to me. We can discuss these things without fragile, toxic egos breathing down our necks. On oasis of rationality in a desert of depravity, if you will

Here's hoping. *knocks on head wood* (in before F. Palmer enters the chat)

Their ideal game would probably be one where no more men exist.

Haha, this is all too fitting - and sadly true.
I recall playing harem games where everyone (regardless if librarian, police officer, shooting instructor, teacher and the whole class) was female.

If the LI is not a virgin and has been with other men in the past, some consider that NTR.

And this is frighteningly reminiscent of some cultures where this is still common practice.
The girl needs to be a virgin - unlike the guy who is free to "fool around" before marriage.

How you accomplish that with Mother/son incest (or MILF fetish) is a puzzle.

Worry not! There's a solution: Immaculate conception Virgin birth.

I've seen a few devs drop out because the toxicity was taking a toll on their mental health.

I feel sorry for them - especially when they are honest devs who deliver quality content, but for whatever stupid reason (not uncommonly it's allegedly "NTR") they fall from grace and their game takes a hit.

 

[jufot]

it's very easy to draw conclusions about their apparent lack of real world experience with said gender (and why)

Exactly, and as transparent as it might seem to some of us, they feel extremely comfortable in their "worldview" and get defensive if you point out their bullshit. Oh, well...

I gave up trying to engage with such members long ago, jufot... and, as you know, have literally rodeo-clowned a thread sometimes to save you the trouble of a brawl.

Haha, I definitely appreaciate it

I'm honestly surprised you even received that much approval (likes). Seems like humanity isn't lost yet...

Yeah, that was definitely a pleasant surprise. It made me think that perhaps there is a silent minority who thinks along the same lines.

I imagine the evolution of its meaning like this

That's certainly the evolution on F95, but the term netorare itself is much more specific than that. It was originally a fantasy where a woman is taken away from the MC by a male NPC. So, simple cheating wouldn't qualify - it had to involve some sort of jealousy and cuckoldry. Now, it's basically man exists=NTR, like you said

 

[jufot]

I highly recommend Secrets of whispering pines, I really liked it so give it a try if you want.

Thanks for the recommendation! I like murder mysteries From a brief look at that page, I see a few red flags, though.

First, there are a few characters looking a bit too young (fourth & fifth screenshots). Are they LIs? If so, do we have to do anything with them?

Second, I see the "sleep sex" tag. There are too many tags on this site that are cutesy euphemisms for rape, and in my experience 99% of "sleep sex" here is definitely of the rapey "I didn't ask her but she didn't say no either, so it was ok" variety, which I don't appreciate. Is that the case here, and if so, is it avoidable?

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

Thanks for the recommendation! I like murder mysteries From a brief look at that page, I see a few red flags, though.

First, there are a few characters looking a bit too young (fourth & fifth screenshots). Are they LIs? If so, do we have to do anything with them?

Second, I see the "sleep sex" tag. There are too many tags on this site that are cutesy euphemisms for rape, and in my experience 99% of "sleep sex" here is definitely of the rapey "I didn't ask her but she didn't say no either, so it was ok" variety, which I don't appreciate. Is that the case here, and if so, is it avoidable?

I am pretty certain everything is avoidable regarding sexual content

 

[Raife]

I'm honestly surprised you even received that much approval (likes). Seems like humanity isn't lost yet...

I feel sorry for them - especially when they are honest devs who deliver quality content, but for whatever stupid reason (not uncommonly it's allegedly "NTR") they fall from grace and their game takes a hit.

Don't feel too reassured, Casual -- there's a high correlation between the folks who liked jufot's _Hillside_ response and the denizens of the _story first_ thread. We are, as discussed, an oddball subculture on this site. In fact, we probably number less than the hardcore vore followers or other niche fetish types. (Apologies, I always seem to tease the vore people, mostly because they take it in good spirit...)

...as for the NTR mislabeling and whackadoodle attitudes towards women (especially LIs) who evidence sexual autonomy... it's not a good thing, because -- as you say -- it tends to kill creativity among devs. As soon as the anti-NTR police start agitating for a game to receive that label (usually inappropriately), it tends to overwhelm discussion and drive away potential supporters. We've gotten to the point where devs have to swear off all potential NTR as soon as a game is posted... and by NTR, they usually mean even _platonic_ relationships between male NPCs and potential LIs. That absolutely _kills_ the potential for a realistic plot... let alone the potential for well-written eroticism.

Finally, I'd like to raise the thorniest topic of all: why aren't there more female writers/devs involved in adult games? Some possible reasons are blindingly obvious (given the above) -- but there are a ton of female writers of erotica. Perhaps Tlaero's experience is instructive: she's quite prolific, and while she's not my favourite writer, she has produced some very good work. But she seems to get zero support at home (or is afraid to ask for it) and gets endless abuse on public sites for insisting that women MCs/NPCs get the same amount of autonomy and agency as their male counterparts. Presumably she loves what she does... but it must be a terrible burden.

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

That's certainly the evolution on F95, but the term netorare itself is much more specific than that. It was originally a fantasy where a woman is taken away from the MC by a male NPC. So, simple cheating wouldn't qualify - it had to involve some sort of jealousy and cuckoldry. Now, it's basically man exists=NTR, like you said

I intentionally left out the part about jealousy to make it more graphic, but of course you're right.

By the way: I have yet to see a well done (western - I can't seem to get into Japanese VNs) NTR game / VN.

The ones I came across were all so badly written and completely lacked any subtlety.
It's either a (usually coloured) man entering the MC's house and banging all women or the MC asking someone "Sir, could you please bang my GF / wife?". Ugh.

I think NTR should be way more nuanced than this, like:

MC meets this good looking girl. Maybe she's a bit out of his league, but she falls for him - either because he's a good guy or he did something that impressed her. Other men are hitting on her. Maybe she has a good looking boss or coworker. Sometimes she comes home late from meetings. Well written NTR games / VNs should play with your emotions and keep the cheating much more vague instead of shoving it in your face, but maybe that's just me.

Thinking of it, the NTR in Good Girl Gone Bad was pretty well done - maybe one day someone will make a game / VN telling a similar story, but from Eric's perspective.

Anyways, I didn't want to turn this into a discussion about NTR - it's not my kink, but I also don't mind it (if it's well done).

As soon as the anti-NTR police start agitating for a game to receive that label (usually inappropriately), it tends to overwhelm discussion and drive away potential supporters. We've gotten to the point where devs have to swear off all potential NTR as soon as a game is posted... and by NTR, they usually mean even _platonic_ relationships between male NPCs and potential LIs. That absolutely _kills_ the potential for a realistic plot... let alone the potential for well-written eroticism.

*fiercely nods in agreement*

Finally, I'd like to raise the thorniest topic of all: why aren't there more female writers/devs involved in adult games?

I wished there were because (imo) female devs tend to bring something to the table that's lacking in many adult games / VNs: An emphasis on story, eroticism and well written female characters.

I'm not saying there aren't male devs out there who can do that as well, but as a general rule of thumb...

In fact a lot of my favourite adult content creators are female: Eva Kiss, Nottravis, DumbKoala, Oracle and Bone.

 

[jufot]

why aren't there more female writers/devs involved in adult games?

There are a few, but in my experience they don't usually go for the explicit stuff. Cardinal Cross and Oathbreaker are both great VNs with a female writer/dev. Likewise, Andromeda Six has a mostly female team.

But she seems to get zero support at home (or is afraid to ask for it) and gets endless abuse on public sites for insisting that women MCs/NPCs get the same amount of autonomy and agency as their male counterparts.

Yeah, it's really quite unfortunate

I wished there were, because (imo) female devs tend to bring something to the table that's lacking in many adult games / VNs: An emphasis on story, eroticism and well written female characters.

Couldn't agree more!

Well written NTR games / VNs should play with your emotions and keep the cheating much more vague instead of shoving it in your face, but maybe that's just me.

I'd say The Edge Of is a good example of this. It's quite cerebral and I really loved it until the last ~15-20 minutes or so where it degenerates into a mess of porn tropes. I have a review of it here (warning, spoilers).

 

[jufot]

Please don't prematurely dismiss it due to its "naive" visual style - it's a beautiful VN with a wonderful story.

Like my previous recommendations there's not much explicit content and the story is rather kinetic.

It's also quite melancholic and has a bittersweet ending, but it's totally worth the tears you will likely cry.

You can download the latest version (the F95Zone version isn't up to date) here (naming your own price):

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.

Oh, this was such a lovely little thing. Sweetly melancholic. I knew what was going on two minutes in, but that didn't lessen the impact. The grief was palpable. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Nyravrod]

Just discovered this thread and It is such a breath of fresh air to see so many people actually care about great story first.
Glad to have now a new backlog of games to check out ^^

I saw it mentioned already in the thread but if you liked Reluctant Archon I would recommend checking out Sorcerer as it is a similar universe/setup and a game with story first approach (It also has the advantage of being actively developed with frequent updates). However it does have a bit of a Harem/power fantasy setup so not perfect but the story makes up for it IMHO.

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

I'd say The Edge Of is a good example of this. It's quite cerebral and I really loved it until the last ~15-20 minutes or so where it degenerates into a mess of porn tropes. I have a review of it here (warning, spoilers).

Thanks for the recommendation. I will check it out.

Oh, this was such a lovely little thing. Sweetly melancholic. I knew what was going on two minutes in, but that didn't lessen the impact. The grief was palpable. Thanks for the recommendation!

I'm glad you liked it! Don't forget to check out Fullmontis' other content on his itch.io page.


I wanted to add to the discussion that it's not only the paranoid Anti-NTR crowd which thwarts or ruins realistic adult games / VNs - the "porn" crowd is equally guilty.

How many times did I read posts or reviews along the lines of:
"This VN sucks. It doesn't have any lewd content at all."
"I played this game for 20 minutes and there wasn't even a sex scene. I skipped (!) the dialogue for another 5 minutes - still nothing."
Often followed by:
"This is a porn site, this game / VN shouldn't even be here."

This puts a lot of pressure on developers, especially those who want to tell a realistic story.
It simply doesn't make sense to have a lewd scene early on in a well written story (unless the MC is already in a relationship).

I recently came across a VN with a story I really like, but the explicit scenes came mostly out of thin air - as if the dev only implemented them to meet some kind of lewd quota in adult games, in other words: crowd-pleasers.

 

[jufot]

Don't forget to check out Fullmontis' other content on his itch.io page.

Will do!

I wanted to add to the discussion that it's not only the paranoid Anti-NTR crowd which thwarts or ruins realistic adult games / VNs - the "porn" crowd is equally guilty.
[...]
I recently came across a VN with a story I really like, but the explicit scenes came mostly out of thin air - as if the dev only implemented them to meet some kind of lewd quota in adult games, in other words: crowd-pleasers.

True, sadly. The good devs try to resist the temptation of pandering to the lowest common denominator, but in my experience most others just embrace it. I've seen developers "promise at least one sex scene per update". It is absolutely impossible to write a good story with that sort of outlook, so I usually just don't bother with those games.

 

[Extrafantasygames]

You may enjoy my games,

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and

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.

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focuses on a trio of friends out to save some princesses. Turn from hometown hero to universal savior overnight! Fully animated and voice acted sex scenes with 2D hand drawn art. Your choices matter in this game, depending on what you do you can wind up with up to seven different girls.

You must be registered to see the links

. It is about an alien that crashes on a small planet, and you have to protect her from evil forces trying to get her back while hiding her from your provincial neighbors. Text based sex with some pixel images. Plenty of exploring and side quests. Runs a couple hours.

 

[Jaike]

I second third or maybe fourth the suggestion of Sorcerer. But I should say that the game is a harem game and that the scenes are sometimes underemotional. Yes, the story does address the points in some way. To satisfaction? Who knows?

Oh yeah. The moment someone here refers to a character as a 'slut' I lose all interest in their opinion and stop engaging with them. IMHO there are only few circumstances where that word is acceptable, and they all revolve around self-labelling, e.g. reclaiming it from nutso puritans as a form of female empowerment.

Even then I think it's a little cringey when it's used as a self-identification or as con verbal degradation for a woman who's been monogamous for quite some time.

Worry not! There's a solution: Immaculate conception.

You must be registered to see the links

kind of untopical.

 

[jufot]

I second third or maybe fourth the suggestion of Sorcerer.

OK OK, you guys and gals have convinced me to give it a shot

Even then I think it's a little cringey when it's used as a self-identification or as con verbal degradation for a woman who's been monogamous for quite some time.

One of my closest friends loves talking about her past "youthful slutty phase" (her words). She isn't the least bit bothered referring to herself like that, so I figure, who am I to judge But yeah, I get where you're coming from.

 

[Deleted member 1044747]

You must be registered to see the links

kind of untopical.

Shit, you got me. Guess my knowledge of Christian doctrine sucks.

I hereby revoke and call it virgin birth.

 

[Dragon59]

A few months ago, we've had a great a discussion of this topic (and realism in general) starting with this comment. I get an unbearable urge to abandon games when I see a variation of "ohhh MC you are hitting my cervix, go faster! I can feel you in my womb!" A lot of these games are written by people whose only experience with sex came from porn, which naturally results in... that

Yes! I remember that particular virgin-friendly-wish-fulfillment when I read a few really bad amateur porn stories on Usenet back in the day. We still see a lighter shade of that in a lot of the "x-ray" scenes where the sperm shoots directly into the uterus as if the cervix was wide open. shaking my head...

Yeah, I would never go anywhere near a story like that. If it has even a hint of sexual assault, it's not for me.

There are some games where a past history of trauma allows for the MC to be understanding and compassionate (something rare in the average game).

I call that virgin-friendly wish fulfilment. It's a philosophy that lends itself effortlessly into that sort of mental gymnastics.

A definite sign of people who got their relationship education from Ayn Rand, 4chan, and 8chan, but with no practical experience.
Just don't forget to post here. I'm sure more than a few of us would be happy to show up for support
[/QUOTE]
I'll be sure to. It's wonderful to have this haven.

Thanks for the recommendation! I like murder mysteries From a brief look at that page, I see a few red flags, though.

First, there are a few characters looking a bit too young (fourth & fifth screenshots). Are they LIs? If so, do we have to do anything with them?

Second, I see the "sleep sex" tag. There are too many tags on this site that are cutesy euphemisms for rape, and in my experience 99% of "sleep sex" here is definitely of the rapey "I didn't ask her but she didn't say no either, so it was ok" variety, which I don't appreciate. Is that the case here, and if so, is it avoidable?

I have that game in my queue. I've downloaded it, but haven't played it yet (one big reason is that since starting on my game, I haven't opened up anyone else's--I need to get past that and play my favorites again). The developer does tend to deal with some very rough content in some of his games. I've decided to stay away from Blackheart Hotel after seeing the prequel. Still, WP seems to have a lot of general support.

 

[jufot]

There are some games where a past history of trauma allows for the MC to be understanding and compassionate

Oh, definitely. It can work greatly as a narrative device when done right. It's just something that personally makes me deeply uncomfortable, so I tend to avoid it as much as I can.

Ayn Rand, 4chan, and 8chan

What a trio Not sure which is worst / has done the most damage, to be honest.

 

[Raife]

What a trio Not sure which is worst / has done the most damage, to be honest.

I think it was the screenwriter John Rogers who addressed this issue best:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.... One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Back on topic: one of the rarest birds in this genre of games is properly written foreplay, beginning with a depiction of what a great kiss feels like -- particularly with an LI the MC has deep feelings for. Get a kiss right, and the potential for spectacular eroticism takes off.

Instead, most games have a mechanical, progressive dynamic: smooch, kiss tits, a bit of oral sex, vaginal sex, etc. Sooooooo dull. Come on, devs! Remind us what it feels like to have that first kiss... or feel that resurgence of lust and desire for a longtime partner....