Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

So I started playing this. The world building is honestly great, but I encountered one of the most hilariously outrageous, shameless pieces of porn logic. I present to you, "it's ok to fuck your daughter now because there are no laws anymore", and said daughter finding the idea "progressive"

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I'd forgotten that howler... but you're absolutely right. Hilarious. If she's not being sarcastic (in which case, it's funny) that is sub-Russ Meyer dialogue.

You can avoid that path entirely, though... which is how I played it. It's a bit strange even then... because unless you have absolutely ironman porn restraint, you'll end up in a relationship with another character that makes things _really_ awkward for poor Carol.

Personally, I think the game would have been soooooooo much better if the relationship with Carol stayed platonic in every path... but that's just my taste, and my personal aversion to harem and incest games is high.

It's not that I have an extreme moral aversion to either kink (let me emphasize, in fictional settings!) -- it's that they typically kill the plausibility of the story. I do not doubt that polyamourous relationships can happen and can be rewarding for some people, for example... but the the idea that a whole clique of women that surround the MC would be up for it is just incredible. In my experience, women _do not_ like to share!

If you absolutely must do a harem game, though, best set it in a fantastic setting like _Now and Then_, in which there is a _slightly_ better pretext for collapsing social mores and atypical behaviour by a large number of characters...

 

[jufot]

you'll end up in a relationship with another character that makes things _really_ awkward for poor Carol.

Hmm, time will tell I suppose. I have another save going on where I deliberately pick answers to avoid her, but the earlier chapters strongly push you towards Carol and when you keeping make choice after choice to lose points with her, it feels like the dev is badgering me with "are you really, really, really sure?" Even then, I don't think you can be nice to her and not sleep with her.

Personally, I think the game would have been soooooooo much better if the relationship with Carol stayed platonic in every path... but that's just my taste, and my personal aversion to harem and incest games is high.

Yeah, I basically feel the same.

If you absolutely must do a harem game, though, [...]

That's fair. As far as harem setups go, this one is far from being the most outrageous. I just found this particular scene to be ridiculously funny and had to share

 

[ShamanLab]

Believe or not but this is story driven sci-fi investigation adventure with many side episodes:

The Agent Who Barely Knows Anything

 

[jufot]

The Agent Who Barely Knows Anything

Wow, that's got to be a first! Cat protagonist + pure lesbian? I'll give it a shot, out of sheer curiosity if nothing else

 

[ShamanLab]

Cat protagonist + pure lesbian?

Yeap, thats true.

 

[jufot]

Did anyone play Color of My Sound? I just discovered it. On one hand, it has exquisite world building and the beginnings of a great story. On the other, the developer says it's an "anime harem game" and the developer notes confirm a willingness to undermine the story for porn logic. The first chapter is out, and there are already examples of this dilemma.

The synopsis says "Careful, each member has their own hidden agendas and personal stake. Pay careful attention, trust no one." but how can everyone have their own agendas independent of the MC, if they are all willing to be his fucktoys?

I suppose this is why you can't make a porn game with a story that has real stakes. You can't give characters any real agency, or have the MC face real, negative consequences because that would interfere with the porn. Given that, the best you can do is to make a story-first game that happens to have sex scenes. Color of My Sound isn't that, but it's still quite decent for a porn game

 

[Raife]

I suppose this is why you can't make a porn game with a story that has real stakes. You can't give characters any real agency, or have the MC face real, negative consequences because that would interfere with the porn. Given that, the best you can do is to make a story-first game that happens to have sex scenes. Color of My Sound isn't that, but it's still quite decent for a porn game

You've touched on the heart of the dilemma: market demand pushes devs to embrace porn logic and emphasize visual porn, which often blow up credible storylines and characters.

There are a couple of kluges that devs sometimes use to get around this, such as:

• creating non-LI NPCs that operate on porn logic and 'tide the player over' as relationships with the LIs develop normally and credibly; or
• devising some sort of magical or fantastic ability, or setting, that injects porn-y logic under certain limited circumstances, but that does not operate all the time.

The trouble is that if you play these games as frequently as we do, these devices become _really_ obvious -- like dumb Hollywood cliches .

The best story-driven games avoid these clunky techniques, though... and focus on telling a fascinating story that eventually wraps in erotic elements.

This is why I greatly prefer an unusual game such as _Hillside_, which could be building those 'real stakes.'

We're on Episode 10, and the MC has not come within a mile of making it to first base with Charlotte, despite a strong mutual attraction. Their attraction/repulsion dynamic is clearly explained (or alluded to) in the plot and their characters' backgrounds. I find it credible and true to life... which could make their eventual coming together so satisfying, visceral and erotic.

It's also deeply interesting, in a human sense... Charlotte hates and fears men (for good reason)... but perhaps not _this man_ (the MC). She might not be capable of another trusting relationship... but perhaps there could be an exception to the rule. Those possibilities and stakes do -- as you say jufuot -- open up the possibility of "real, negative consequences" if the MC builds and betrays that trust.

And yet... if you read these boards, there are a lot of players who really dislike Charlotte, because she's 'frigid' or 'crazy'. Or they just complain about the lack of porn.

 

[jufot]

creating non-LI NPCs that operate on porn logic and 'tide the player over'

Oh man, this couldn't be more true. Literally the first scene in the game I mentioned has a woman - a total stranger - approaching the MC on the street and telling him how she likes him, how she isn't like "those other girls", and that she wants to lose her virginity to him. The game never elaborates on the why because obviously, who cares? The MC certainly doesn't

[things about Charlotte]

Agreed. DarkBlue has done masterful work with her internal monologue, the attraction/revulsion/fear cycle, and how MC's perception of said cycle evolves with him discovering more of Charlotte's backstory.

She might not be capable of another trusting relationship... but perhaps there could be an exception to the rule. Those possibilities and stakes do -- as you say jufuot -- open up the possibility of "real, negative consequences" if the MC builds and betrays that trust.

This might be a controversial opinion, especially among Hillside fans, but I think this is why neither Emma nor the older sister (can't remember her name) should ever be LIs. The idea of an adult man dating his employer's teenage daughters is icky at the best of times, but given the traumatic backgrounds of all three women, it is especially revolting.

And yet... if you read these boards, there are a lot of players who really dislike Charlotte, because she's 'frigid' or 'crazy'. Or they just complain about the lack of porn.

Oh, I stopped participating in that thread a long time ago, precisely for this reason.

 

[Jaike]

Oh man, this couldn't be more true. Literally the first scene in the game I mentioned has a woman - a total stranger - approaching the MC on the street and telling him how she likes him, how she isn't like "those other girls", and that she wants to lose her virginity to him. The game never elaborates on the why because obviously, who cares? The MC certainly doesn't

It's interesting how such a scene could easily be improved by:

• Changing the location to somewhere other than the street, maybe a bar or restaurant.
• Removing any mention of virginity or "those other girls".
• Allowing a little time with some small talk so the scene is rewritten as a casual hook-up.

But the dev has decided to forego that option, maybe for the sake of bilking money from blokes who are into selective purity culture. Casual hook-ups totally aren't unrealistic. Scenes of women begging random strangers on the street corner to take their virginity are.

 

[Raife]

It's interesting how such a scene could easily be improved by:

• Changing the location to somewhere other than the street, maybe a bar or restaurant.
• Removing any mention of virginity or "those other girls".
• Allowing a little time with some small talk so the scene is rewritten as a casual hook-up.

But the dev has decided to forego that option, maybe for the sake of bilking money from blokes who are into selective purity culture. Casual hook-ups totally aren't unrealistic. Scenes of women begging random strangers on the street corner to take their virginity are.

Exactly.

It is quite possible to write a plausible, super hot sex scene very early in a visual novel -- even in episode 1. It just requires care. One excellent example is:

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[jufot]

Casual hook-ups totally aren't unrealistic. Scenes of women begging random strangers on the street corner to take their virginity are.

Exactly. Honestly, some of these developers should probably tattoo this phrase on their foreheads just as a daily reminder when they look in a mirror.

The Emma scene at the end of Episode 1 of Nothing is Forever.

Agreed. I also loved how you have the option of taking a hike without rejecting her. All three approaches in that scene were full of sexual tension in an entirely realistic manner.

 

[Raife]

This might be a controversial opinion, especially among Hillside fans, but I think this is why neither Emma nor the older sister (can't remember her name) should ever be LIs. The idea of an adult man dating his employer's teenage daughters is icky at the best of times, but given the traumatic backgrounds of all three women, it is especially revolting.

I just don't know. Like you, I _hate_ the idea that the MC would take advantage of Charlotte's daughters, particularly Emma. On the other hand, the existence of a 'dark' path can sometimes make the decision to take the high road more satisfying for the player... even if they never walk down it.

The main question for me is whether the dev can successfully make dark choices (e.g. a sexual relationship with Emma) seem logical in the context of an MC with a core personality that would seem to resist or be revolted by such choices.

 

[jufot]

the existence of a 'dark' path can sometimes make the decision to take the high road more satisfying for the player... even if they never walk down it.

Hmm, I don't know. I suppose it's possible. I've played the Mass Effect trilogy half a dozen times without ever going the Renegade path, so I'm probably not the best person to opine on this

The main question for me is whether the dev can successfully make dark choices (e.g. a sexual relationship with Emma) seem logical in the context of an MC with a core personality that would seem to resist or be revolted by such choices.

Fair, if DB can do that. I don't see how he could, but I'm willing to chalk that up to my lack of imagination

 

[Raife]

Hmm, I don't know. I suppose it's possible. I've played the Mass Effect trilogy half a dozen times without ever going the Renegade path, so I'm probably not the best person to opine on this

Here's another case to help you mull over the merits of including a dark path, as a means of exploring character and player agency.

One of my (many) peeves about this board is the number of members who will label a female LI a 'slut' or as 'bad' for cheating on (or just breaking up with) the MC IF the player chooses to mistreat or ignore her.

Setting aside these labels (which are often... bizarre/wrong) exploring immoral choices as a player can reveal other admirable facets of the LI's personality that would not be visible on the normal/light path... which might make her more appealing on that path as well, if you follow me.

Critically, though, these paths must both be credible when applied to those characters... their choices and actions must be true to their personalities as we understand them. That applies to MCs as well as LIs: a well-written MC has a core personality, and should not do certain things in most circumstances that conflict with their fundamental character. (Incidentally... that's why I share your potential concerns about the _Hillside_ MC, if there is indeed an Emma path.)

 

[ShamanLab]

Mabye not the biggest blockbusters around but definetly story driven projects:

* Cheeky - nice characters and long story.
* Unexpected Adventures - without question the best mad comedy ever made.
* Apocalypse Mutant 2 - i recently stuck up on this project and was very surprized how vell it's telling the story.

 

[ShamanLab]

Woow, about half hour ago was published Her Android Tears [v1.0] !

I even didn't try this game but i know the developer! He having one of the very best renders around and knowing how to tell the story. So, he just can't publish bad project.

 

[jufot]

One of my (many) peeves about this board is the number of members who will label a female LI a 'slut' or as 'bad' for cheating on (or just breaking up with) the MC IF the player chooses to mistreat or ignore her.

Oh yeah. The moment someone here refers to a character as a 'slut' I lose all interest in their opinion and stop engaging with them. IMHO there are only few circumstances where that word is acceptable, and they all revolve around self-labelling, e.g. reclaiming it from nutso puritans as a form of female empowerment.

exploring immoral choices as a player can reveal other admirable facets of the LI's personality that would not be visible on the normal/light path... which might make her more appealing on that path as well, if you follow me.

Right, that makes sense. I should definitely be more open to that.

 

[jufot]

* Cheeky - nice characters and long story.
* Unexpected Adventures - without question the best mad comedy ever made.
* Apocalypse Mutant 2 - i recently stuck up on this project and was very surprized how vell it's telling the story.
* Her Android Tears [v1.0]

Thanks for the recommendations!

* Cheeky: It's weird to see a game be in development for 2 years with only 4 reviews, I wonder why that is. There are some tags that are major turn-offs (mind control, corruption, graphic violence, male domination) so this is probably a pass from me.
* Unexpected Adventures: It says the game is abandoned, but I like absurdist humour so I'll give it a chance
* Apocalypse Mutant 2: I tried the first game for about 10 minutes, and it felt very nonsensical. Is this game very different from the first?
* Her Android Tears: Agreed. The dev is well-known for some truly wacky stuff, and this one definitely deserves a look.

 

[Raife]

Thanks for the recommendations!

* Her Android Tears: Agreed. The dev is well-known for some truly wacky stuff, and this one definitely deserves a look.

I keep meaning to try _Shag the Hag_ by the same dev, which seems appealingly unconventional... what better way to send up the 'magic penis' porn trope than with a literal magic penis?

 

[ShamanLab]

Thanks for the recommendations!

* Cheeky: It's weird to see a game be in development for 2 years with only 4 reviews, I wonder why that is. There are some tags that are major turn-offs (mind control, corruption, graphic violence, male domination) so this is probably a pass from me.

It's not really weird if developer making zero effort to promote his game except publishing updates posts here on f95. The project is very solid.

And about those tags -- the game is pretty vanilla. There is few monster characters, few fighting scenes (without gore) and... it's almost all about it.

* Apocalipse 2 -- i didn't tried first part yet. But the second part pacing well. Little by little, you meet four characters who are trying to survive in an apocalyptic world. The level of violence in action scenes is very high for good or for worse. Very similar in style to 'Fallout New Vegas'.

* 'Unexpected Adventures' abandoned but it having giantish amount of renders, characters and mad events.