Recommending Story-first games

[jufot]

there's a _big_ difference between the top games on your list and the rest.

Yeah, that's fair

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

So, I made it all the way through to the end of chapter 5 this morning... and it's improving, for three principal reasons:

• The LIs are starting to interact... they aren't just ships passing in the night anymore, and there are hints that the MC will be forced to make choices;
• The Dev has peeled back the onion a bit more on a few of the LIs, adding greater depth to their personalities (e.g. with Erika, as you say); and
• a few of the male NPCs have started to develop in interesting ways, either as allies or antagonists (or both).

This last point is really important: my favourite story-driven games tend to have a fully-realized (non-'porny') gameworld, with other male NPCs that have three-dimensional personalities and roles (even if they are not, per my personal taste, LIs).

Reading the dev's Patreon, it's clear that he decided to slowly develop the relationships between the MC and the LIs along a fairly uniform progression system, moving through stages (i.e. friend-special friend-lover). That's fine, as a clunky game mechanic... but it's not how most relationships actually work. The alchemy is much more complex. Take two of the strongest games on jufot's list -- _Nothing is Forever_ and _Hillside_ -- which have brilliantly-written LI relationships with the MC. Their relationship progressions look something like this:

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It's the difference between Beethoven's Fifth Symphony or Nirvana's Nevermind and elevator muzak. The AMFA Dev is making progress, but he has a long, long way to go.

[I still don't have a clue how the points/personality types system works; I'm not convinced that it has any impact on choices in the game.]

Well,I've never said Amfa is one of the best,but it's good,definitely better than some of those recommended before. And,of course, Tastes vary,i for one,am not that big of a hillside fan. I mean the writing is good but overall it's nowhere near my top 10. As for amfa,the personality type system is indeed not that great,nowhere near Nothing is forever that's for sure.

 

[Raife]

That's quite the comparison

For fun -- and because I'm procrastinating from a gross house chore -- here's how I'd rank your favourite games, jufot... in tiers and in no particular order (with games that you should add to your list in italics):

First tier -- far and away the best, to the point where they deserve a separate category

• Hillside
• Corporate Culture
• Nothing is Forever

Second tier -- excellent story driven games

• Price of Power
• Being a DIK (you are overlooking this game because of your irrational anti-college setting bias and the Dev's flawed previous entry... there are some great LIs)
• Three Rules of Life (more female Asian LIs with complicated pasts, please [drool])
• Halfway House (belongs in your signature, man... although I'm worried that it's getting too big/complicated for the dev, who is losing focus)
• Now and Then (the only harem OR incest-ish game that I've ever enjoyed, largely due to the writing and feeling of threat)

Third tier -- good games with notable flaws

• Chasing Sunsets (stupendous renders and sex scenes... although the plot is a bit OTT... and it's sort-of/ish an incest game)
• The DeLuca Family (the game is a mess -- I'm not sure what it wants to be -- but it's very fun to play)
• Rebirth (has almost no sex or real eroticism... but the narrative and world are fun and I look forward to every episode)
• Blackberry Honey
• Deviancy (played without the incest patch)

Fourth tier -- OK games that jufot is over-rating

• Penny for Your Thoughts (Penny and the MC are both overpowered and the plot makes little sense)
• Defending Lydia Collier (I like the eroticism of some sex scenes... but there are too many plot branches)
• Oathbreaker (essentially a Winter Wolves game... really?!)
• Leap of Faith (violates your own rule against an irresistibly attractive MC... and the plot is soap operatic)

 

[Raife]

Well,I've never said Amfa is one of the best,but it's good,definitely better than some of those recommended before. And,of course, Tastes vary,i for one,am not that big of a hillside fan. I mean the writing is good but overall it's nowhere near my top 10. As for amfa,the personality type system is indeed not that great,nowhere near Nothing is forever that's for sure.

All that you say here is true and fair. But... I suspect that Hillside will move into your top 10 when it's finished... and AMFA might move onto my list somewhere, as well. I like to encourage creative devs with new ideas and a passion for them... and that definitely applies to the AMFA dev. He's learning and improving, which is great to see.

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

All that you say here is true and fair. But... I suspect that Hillside will move into your top 10 when it's finished... and AMFA might move onto my list somewhere, as well. I like to encourage creative devs with new ideas and a passion for them... and that definitely applies to the AMFA dev. He's learning and improving, which is great to see.

You might be right,it's growing on me.At first i was like-"Oh no,he's trying to turn "bodyguard" movie into a porn game,at least Bodyguard had Whitney Houston" But now with every update I like it more. The main problem I have is that I'm not really interested in Li's in this game, so that's a problem for me to really get immersed.Same thing applies to Corporate Culture,great writing but not that interesting Li's (to me of course,my subjective opinion).But I can see both of them raising higher in my list as the time pass.

 

[Jaike]

I think you might like Foul Play, it mostly fits the criteria except that one ending has story writing of uneven quality compared to the rest of the game.

Fourth tier -- OK games that jufot is over-rating
...

• Defending Lydia Collier (I like the eroticism of some sex scenes... but there are too many plot branches)

I can understand how a lot of branching in the plot may not be your thing and I also know that branching often correlates with a decline in narrative quality, but I don't get how one goes from "there are too many plot branches" to "game is just okay and over-rated". Just seems like a lot of points subtracted for such a small thing. From what I have seen so far, the developer is handling the current amount of branching quite artfully. I think the amount of side content is more distracting but it is also impressive in its own way.

Defending Lydia Collier is still absent from the OP.

 

[Raife]

I think you might like Foul Play, it mostly fits the criteria except that one ending has story writing of uneven quality compared to the rest of the game.


I can understand how a lot of branching in the plot may not be your thing and I also know that branching often correlates with a decline in narrative quality, but I don't get how one goes from "there are too many plot branches" to "game is just okay and over-rated". Just seems like a lot of points subtracted for such a small thing. From what I have seen so far, the developer is handling the current amount of branching quite artfully. I think the amount of side content is more distracting but it is also impressive in its own way.

Defending Lydia Collier is still absent from the OP.

You could be right -- I might have been a bit ungenerous, and I haven't played the latest update. It might belong in tier 3.

 

[jufot]

here's how I'd rank your favourite games, jufot... in tiers and in no particular order (with games that you should add to your list in italics):

Oh, how fun! I think we are generally aligned here, I certainly don't see anything outrageous Here's my list, with some thoughts on your recommendations as well. This is mostly in order of preference within the tiers.

Tier 1 -- My absolute favourites

- Corporate Culture
- Penny for Your Thoughts (Best female protagonist ever, bar none.)
- Hillside
- Nothing is Forever
- A Summer's End (best lesbian VN of all time)

Tier 2 -- Not perfect, but far better than most everything else

- Oathbreaker (I'm a sucker for well-written fantasy and few do it better than Rinmaru. Her sci-fi space opera

You must be registered to see the links

is one of my favourite VNs ever.)
- Deviancy (Don't really care for the incest but the 100% natural, organic, locally sourced British Banter™ is unmatched.)
- Rebirth (I'd say there is plenty of eroticism and playful romance with Sharon. I'm also quite invested in the mysteries, particularly that of the cave and Calisto.)
- Price of Power (Don't care about the PG-13 Disney Channel romance at all, I just want the story. Give me more Legacy!)
- Reluctant Archon (This is a new discovery for me thanks to this thread. The entire premise is ridiculous, yet it manages to be both consistent and sensible. I also love its funny take on Greek and pagan mythology.)

Tier 3 -- Good, well-written, interesting games

- Three Rules of Life (The story isn't all that special but, Naomi is just... spellbinding. So there's that I also like how everyone, including the men are broken and flawed in their own ways.)
- Leap of Faith (Yes, MC is definitely rule-violating, but the LIs are very human. One in particular hits me close to home. I'm also a big fan of the humour of it - that bunny slippers scene was hilarious.)
- Being a DIK (I enjoy it for what it is: a porn comedy full of wacky hijinks. Yes, it has a heart underneath, and it is well-written, but it's not the point of the game.)
- Chasing Sunsets (I thought the story is surprisingly convincing, particularly because they are not actually siblings. It's starting to get a bit too porny, but I remain hopeful.)
- The DeLuca Family (MC's relationships with the LIs are way too porny, but I feel drawn to the family history, especially what happened to Luna and how that affected everyone else. The text adventures are also surprisingly fun.)
- Blackberry Honey (Decent story, and surprisingly grounded for this sort of VN.)
- Defending Lydia Collier (The story is good, but I find the gameplay extremely annoying - that laptop, ugh! - so I'll probably wait until there is a cheat mod or something)

Others:
- Halfway House: Decent enough story, I suppose, but I find all three LIs to be boring clichés. Not to mention, there is a high likelihood the game will end up abandoned. Developer's Patreon updates do not inspire confidence.
- Now and Then: This is on my list, and I will definitely give it a shot.

 

[jufot]

Defending Lydia Collier is still absent from the OP.

Oh, that's definitely a mistake! The game is in my signature for a reason

I think you might like Foul Play, it mostly fits the criteria except that one ending has story writing of uneven quality compared to the rest of the game.

Will check this one out as well!

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

Oh, how fun! I think we are generally aligned here, I certainly don't see anything outrageous Here's my list, with some thoughts on your recommendations as well. This is mostly in order of preference within the tiers.

Tier 1 -- My absolute favourites

- Corporate Culture
- Penny for Your Thoughts (Best female protagonist ever, bar none.)
- Hillside
- Nothing is Forever

Tier 2 -- Not perfect, but far better than most everything else

- Oathbreaker (I'm a sucker for well-written fantasy and few do it better than Rinmaru. Her sci-fi space opera

You must be registered to see the links

is one of my favourite VNs ever.)
- Deviancy (Don't really care for the incest but the 100% natural, organic, locally sourced British Banter™ is unmatched.)
- Rebirth (I'd say there is plenty of eroticism and playful romance with Sharon. I'm also quite invested in the mysteries, particularly that of the cave and Calisto.)
- Price of Power (Don't care about the PG-13 Disney Channel romance at all, I just want the story. Give me more Legacy!)

Tier 3 -- Good, well-written, interesting games

- Three Rules of Life (The story isn't all that special but, Naomi is just... spellbinding. So there's that I also like how everyone, including the men are broken and flawed in their own ways.)
- Leap of Faith (Yes, MC is definitely rule-violating, but the LIs are very human. One in particular hits me close to home. I'm also a big fan of the humour of it - that bunny slippers scene was hilarious.)
- Being a DIK (I enjoy it for what it is: a porn comedy full of whacky hijinks. Yes, it has a heart underneath, and it is well-written, but it's not the point of the game.)
- Chasing Sunsets (I thought the story is surprisingly convincing, particularly because they are not actually siblings. It's starting to get a bit too porny, but I remain hopeful.)
- The DeLuca Family (MC's relationships with the LIs are way too porny, but I feel drawn to the family history, especially what happened to Luna and how that affected everyone else. The text adventures are also surprisingly fun.)
- Blackberry Honey (Decent story, and surprisingly grounded for this sort of VN.)
- Defending Lydia Collier (The story is good, but I find the gameplay extremely annoying - that laptop, ugh! - so I'll probably wait until there is a cheat mod or something)

Others:
- Halfway House: Decent enough story, I suppose, but I find all three LIs to be boring clichés. Not to mention, there is a high likelihood the game will end up abandoned. Developer's Patreon updates do not inspire confidence.
- Now and Then: This is on my list, and I will definitely give it a shot.

I'm honestly surprised you like Penny that much. I disliked her in Avalon and that followed into the actual game. Couldn't have been happier when Lockheart dropped it in favor of A Petal Among Thorns,also you are probably the only person i know of mentioning Penny as one of their fave games.

 

[Raife]

Brilliant... I was aiming to provoke, so that I could procrastinate some more.

A few thoughts:

• I don't get how Penny approaches the top tier... but maybe I'm biased by my dislike of the Dev's other work. I'll give it another try. I seem to remember a bizarre amount of shouting on that game's thread between you and the usual group of gormless knuckle-draggers that hang out in these parts...
• _Oathbreaker_ -- you nerd!
  
• _Leap of Faith_ -- the subplot you are alluding to is the best part of the game. If the dev had kept his focus there, and on that LI, the game would be much higher on my personal list.
• _Rebirth_ is fascinating because of the mysteries and world-building. But the relationship between the MC and Sharon feels a bit uneven to me, because he can feel physical desire and she cannot... at least not yet.
• I agree entirely on the _Price of Power_. The world-building is far better than the cheesy romance (which, being a sucker, I nevertheless enjoy).

I think you'll like _Now and Then_. You can avoid the incest-y and harem bits entirely, if you make certain choices. It's the world that draws me in.

 

[Raife]

I'm honestly surprised you like Penny that much. I disliked her in Avalon and that followed into the actual game. Couldn't have been happier when Lockheart dropped it in favor of A Petal Among Thorns,also you are probably the only person i know of mentioning Penny as one of their fave games.

Totally, man. I don't get it... but I really disliked the MC in Avalon, so that might have coloured my view of Penny. I think we'll chalk Penny up as a jufot eccentricity.

There are some dudes on this site who have a atavistic dislike of Penny, though, for various bizarre reasons. I don't understand those furious attacks on Penny, either. She's interesting... but is no Elsa.

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

Totally, man. I don't get it... but I really disliked the MC in Avalon, so that might have coloured my view of Penny. I think we'll chalk Penny up as a jufot eccentricity.

There are some dudes on this site who have a atavistic dislike of Penny, though, for various bizarre reasons. I don't understand those furious attacks on Penny, either. She's interesting... but is no Elsa.

Well,I simply dislike her and the male mc of the game,and I felt like she stole Avalon,and not in a good way. I'm afraid many people hate her because of the most dumb reason,for being with avalon's mc sister (I think that redhead was a sister? can't remember,but was in love with mc in avalon,but nothing happened between them). However I don't think we will ever agree on the Li topic,cause you both seem to like Elsa and jufot mentioned liking Naomi in TROL and I dislike both of them haha.

 

[jufot]

I'm honestly surprised you like Penny that much. I disliked her in Avalon and that followed into the actual game. Couldn't have been happier when Lockheart dropped it in favor of A Petal Among Thorns,also you are probably the only person i know of mentioning Penny as one of their fave games.

Totally, man. I don't get it... but I really disliked the MC in Avalon, so that might have coloured my view of Penny. I think we'll chalk Penny up as a jufot eccentricity.

I'm not into Petal at all, but Avalon - despite being quite mediocre - will always be special to me because it gave us Penny. I'll happily accept the "eccentric" label

I don't get how Penny approaches the top tier... but maybe I'm biased by my dislike of the Dev's other work. I'll give it another try. I seem to remember a bizarre amount of shouting on that game's thread between you and the usual group of gormless knuckle-draggers that hang out in these parts...

Penny is quite special to me, and I find it difficult to put into words why. I do know Lockheart (the dev) feels the same, so perhaps he could explain it better

_Oathbreaker_ -- you nerd!

Proudly

_Rebirth_ is fascinating because of the mysteries and world-building. But the relationship between the MC and Sharon feels a bit uneven to me, because he can feel physical desire and she cannot... at least not yet.

Or... maybe his libido will also go away with time, just like Sharon's did, and they'll live happily ever after as an asexual couple! Silliness aside, I enjoy the unbalanced nature of their relationship. MC is young, hot headed, horny and impulsive whereas Sharon is older, calmer and wiser. It's a nice contrast, and they complement each other well.

I think you'll like _Now and Then_. You can avoid the incest-y and harem bits entirely, if you make certain choices. It's the world that draws me in.

Looking forward to it!

However I don't think we will ever agree on the Li topic,cause you both seem to like Elsa and jufot mentioned liking Naomi in TROL and I dislike both of them haha.

Haha, fair Different tastes for different folks.

 

[Raife]

I'm not into Petal at all, but Avalon - despite being quite mediocre - will always be special to me because it gave us Penny. I'll happily accept the "eccentric" label

You _are_ eccentric in terms of this website -- for all the best reasons. Your affinity for very strong female characters/LIs is your chief quirk... which I share. I also share your suspicions about why some players react so violently against those characters... I'll say no more.

But... unlike Elsa, Penny is a bit too flawless/ninja-like for the gameworld she's in... particularly counterposed against that lazy MC in _Avalon_. (He makes Edward, even at his lowest, seem like a prince by comparison!)

 

[jufot]

I'll say no more.

'Nuff said!

He makes Edward, even at his lowest, seem like a prince by comparison!

Hmm, I barely remember anything about Avalon's MC, clearly he didn't leave an impression with me. Edward does, though, for entirely the wrong reasons

 

[jufot]

I missed two, important things. First, I added Reluctant Archon to tier 2. Second:

essentially a Winter Wolves game... really?!

Oathbreaker is faaar from anything WW ever produced. The quality of writing is really something else. If you are not into fantasy, perhaps you could try sci-fi with Cardinal Cross? Give it half an hour, that should be enough to give you an idea

 

[Raife]

I missed two, important things. First, I added Reluctant Archon to tier 2. Second:
Oathbreaker is faaar from anything WW ever produced. The quality of writing is really something else. If you are not into fantasy, perhaps you could try sci-fi with Cardinal Cross? Give it half an hour, that should be enough to give you an idea

I haven't actually played RA, yet -- I keep looking at it, hard, and not biting. If I have some time next week, I might bite, though. The trouble is that a Hillside update is going to drop soon, which must take priority!

I've only played a bit of _Oathbreaker_ -- so I can't really review it properly. It has a WW-esque look and romance system, but I haven't given it enough time to properly assess the writing.

And OK, OK fine... I'll try CC.

For the record, I don't dislike Fantasy at all as a genre, but there's so much baaaad fantasy out there that somehow finds a market. Much to my chagrin, for instance, Amazon has made WoT into a TV series... thereby giving more attention to one of the worst writers of female characters in the history of the universe...

 

[jufot]

If I have some time next week, I might bite, though.

Keep in mind, it is quite long.

The trouble is that a Hillside update is going to drop soon, which must take priority!

Obviously

FWIW, romance is a tiny, largely ignorable part of CC. Even in Oathbreaker, it basically consists of a few lines of different dialogue and H-scenes. Both games are first and foremost about the story.

Amazon has made WoT into a TV series

Uhm... I was not aware of this. After Apple thoroughly butchered Foundation, I'm not keen on these novel adaptations.

 

[jufot]

I think you'll like _Now and Then_. You can avoid the incest-y and harem bits entirely, if you make certain choices. It's the world that draws me in.

So I started playing this. The world building is honestly great, but I encountered one of the most hilariously outrageous, shameless pieces of porn logic. I present to you, "it's ok to fuck your daughter now because there are no laws anymore", and said daughter finding the idea "progressive"