Recommending Story-first games

[Canto Forte]

I will concede the argument that it is the character talking/doing the scene, rather than the actor.
I will also concede the argument that there is actual plot and reasoning behind short phrases
that actually make it into the thoughts and/or dialogues/monologues of the characters,
with the implication that the writer did spend long amounts of time and energy to come up with them,
only to hint or summarize in a line or a dialogue what would be
actual dozen of pages of narration if it were a book.

Characters are not supposed to act or talk with 100% veracity for multitude of reasons including plot convenience and exposition

took the writer a week to think it up

The thoughts and ideas, along with the dialogues lines of the characters are meant to be cringe and seem to us, the gamers, as a self parody(done by the characters to themselves in order to make it seem, in their mind, not so serious, not to take to heart whatever they do or experience) if we ever took into account the actual conditions of the charcaters - they are no deep thinkers, no professors of philosophy or psichology, they are no pick up artists that spend actual time and effort into delivering those lines and weeks or months of mental gymnastics building up their psyche to deliver those lines and have those thoughts during scenes.

The writer did a marvelous job in putting the characters in their places,
most of the time these are antiheroes, allowing themselves to drift into grey areas
of their moral compass, sometimes ditching the morals alltogether in favor of action.

Is the implication here that This Time's writing meant to be a "cringe and nauseating self parody"?

 

[bacienvu88]

I'll reiterate that I have only played partway through second chapter so far. My opinions may change the farther I play.

I'm biased (because I wrote the game) but your criticism is contradictory.

Highly likely. I have a tendency to think about parts in isolation, making my criticism not very cohesive. I also tend to change my opinion over the course of a discussion without me noticing it (much). This is even more likely when my opinion is very mixed like in this case.

You say the monologues are pointless and have nothing to say. Then you criticize the game for "jarring" characterization that's explained by the monologues, like the allegory of fire as a metaphor for the compulsion to commit sexual misdeeds, which is a way to rationalize both paths of the moral choice system (virtuous and depraved) while still seeming like the same character.

I just don't see that allegory rationalizing much at all. It describes that MC has an impulse to be a creep. But it doesn't explain why MC is or is not acting on that impulse. And acting on the impulse seem jarring to me given how MC has been portrayed with him being someone who wants to help people, fight corruption and so on. Yeah, there is the question of MC wanting to blackmail that official, but it hasn't been explored much yet.

Bacienvu, as I said, I haven't played it, but I caution against mixing up, "Writing style that I don't like," and "Bad writing." When I read the examples you gave, it sounds like a writer going for a unique (or at least different) style more than a writer trying to be pretentious. Of course, it's totally fine to say, "I don't enjoy this style of writing," but it's best to recognize it as a style rather than a skill. It's similar to saying, "I don't like westerns" or "I don't like science fiction." No problem at all with not liking those types of games, but I suspect you'd review the game differently if you saw it as just a genre you don't happen to like.

You have a good point. And part of it is absolutely about style. But I don't think I would have much of an issue with the style if the writing resonated better with me. But I am a culprit of mixing up style and the content in my criticism.

 

[Canto Forte]

MC is a mistery to himself, his inner voice and monologues, his mind and to us all.
Here is a thought:
MC acts in the heat of the moment as is his training, his mucle memory:
a fire fighter has to do split second decisions to decide who lives and who dies.
What could that mean:
Apply that to totally new and unfamiliar emotions, impulses, situations, powers,
you will get the full array of angst and stupid to down right jarring moves MC does.

I would have much of an issue with the style if the writing resonated better with me

there is the question of MC

Unfortunately, MC applies his whole life purpose of making hazardous decisions based on the
worst possible outcome apraisal into everything he does: how he deals with girls,
how he deals with emotions, how he deals with impulses,
how he deals with random thoughts rushing through his head.

 

[Vasin]

So I gave "This Time" another shot. I think there are mainly two problems. The dialogue, while excessively wordy, is also meandering which is much worse. Imagine if you asked someone "What time is it?" and instead of getting a normal reply would hear something like "What is time? We use it to measure our lives, to quantify our experiences, but what is it really? Time is both constant and elusive, always moving forward yet never fully understood. Scientists study its properties, philosophers debate its meaning, but for all our efforts, time remains a mystery."

Which leads me to a second point, there is a huge disconnect between the mood the dialogue is going for and the mood the scene sets. Let me give you an example. There's a part where MC's "tomboy" friend decides to prank him by making him use the remote for a vibrator she's wearing by telling him it's a broken remote for her table speaker and asking to fix it.

Spoiler: And this is where we get this gem.

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He then goes off on two more tangents about dangers of uncontrolled technology advancements and domination of large corporations. Legit, if this was a comical parody it would work 100%, scene is pure genius, characters literally masturbate over armchair philosophy. Except, in-character, the MC is dead serious.

(Now, you can either agree or refuse to fix it, but there is no in-character reason to refuse to help your friend, and moreover refusing it just skips the scene, it's doesn't change anything as far as I could see)

Spoiler: I know it's inspired by noir, but is it also set in the 60's?

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[MidnightArrow]

(Now, you can either agree or refuse to fix it, but there is no in-character reason to refuse to help your friend, and moreover refusing it just skips the scene, it's doesn't change anything as far as I could see)

The scene has to be skippable in case the player isn't interested in Chelsea. That's what the lead dev decided.

As for the rest, I added the philosophical discussion because otherwise the scene (from the original, which I didn't write) has nothing to do with the rest of the story, but I had to reuse as many of the original renders as I could. At least this way it has something to say about the main character grappling with his newfound ability.

Besides that, the tone isn't a "problem". Undercutting serious drama with comedy is something TV shows like Angel did all the time, and that was a big influence on my script, so I stand by it 100%.

 

[Vasin]

Besides that, the tone isn't a "problem". Undercutting serious drama with comedy is something TV shows like Angel did all the time, and that was a big influence on my script, so I stand by it 100%.

It's not about mixing comedy and drama, it's about characters not being dramatic when situation is comedic. You can have a funny moment in a drama when it appears funny to characters and (not necessarily) to the reader. The thing to remember here is that characters set the tone. A situation in which characters treat something with utmost seriousness and it's meant to be funny to the viewer is really only acceptable in parodies, as it creates a serious disconnect between the in-character stakes and readers' perception.

I didn't realize how much of the original game you had to write around, and I understand it can be difficult, so in any case, I wish you the best of luck and a lot of inspiration in your future work on the game.

 

[Canto Forte]

MC is living each day at a time, each interaction at a time. Remember, he is coming from
end of work/end of life drink till you drop expectations when we meet him.

Each and every silly encounter, mixed with his overcomplicated way of telling about
something he has been coining in his mind and tryn a be both funny and interesting to a babe,
there is the meaning in his life.
MC fails big, only just because overly complicated explanations, the ones boys usually come up with
on the spot to woo the girls, end up off putting and neauseating instead.

Little does MC know the fact of the matter is: all the girls would jump him right then and there,
if he would simply shut up. This is the comedy, the irony, the drama of MC,
who is befallen sweet wonderful hotties and has no clue whatsoever
on how to confort them, to cuddle and hold and show his affection to them.

Spoiler

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[kotte]

There's a part where MC's "tomboy" friend decides to prank him by making him use the remote for a vibrator she's wearing by telling him it's a broken remote for her table speaker and asking to fix it.

...or not so much prank him, but rather trying to be satisfied by him without him knowing...
The discussion here made me try the game and I loved that scene!
It was definitely not something we have seen a lot of times before.

I can somewhat agree on two points of criticism: the philosophical monologues are a bit long sometimes, and some of the lewd choices feel totally out of place (I mean "peek"? The MC is not 14!), but my main impression was that this is a well made game. Some of the renders are stunning (the animated drop of water!) and the story is totally above average.

It will be interesting to see where it will go from here.

 

[MidnightArrow]

I can somewhat agree on two points of criticism: the philosophical monologues are a bit long sometimes,

That's the influence of the X-Files and Philip K Dick on my script. I didn't plan on changing it, but I noticed as we went along and ApocalypseToday started making new renders for my scenes, the monologues tapered off since I could just lay out the scene the way I needed to, to get the point across. I didn't need to "glue" old renders and scenes together anymore.

and some of the lewd choices feel totally out of place (I mean "peek"? The MC is not 14!)

That was from the original version, but the voyeur aspect will get played up later so I reframed it as a little "taste" of what's to come if you choose the depraved path.

 

[Vasin]

We must have watched very different X-Files, lol.

But speaking of old tv shows and inspirations, there's a game called A Shadow Over Solomon Falls, described by the author as influenced by shows like Haven, Fringe and Twin Peaks.

Now, the caveat is that it's a "corruption" game and those not being my cup of tea, I was reluctant to try it out. After playing it though I found the story to be quite good, a sort of mix between Twin Peaks and Lovecraftian horror. So far there's only one week but it does cover a plot intro and around one chapter.

As for porny bits, it being a sandbox and a corruption game it has all the things you would expect and it gets quite cheesy. I can't help but feel that it's brought down by these corruption genre conventions but it is possible to ignore them entirely and just play the game as a detective sandbox of sorts.

I think it's worth trying if horror and mystery is your thing, but maybe not for the OP list, no.

 

[Zoey Raven]

To the writers and devs out there posting in this thread. Something that's helped me with criticism (I'm still not great with it, when people are way off base), is to realize we're really one of the only mediums of novel writing that serialize anymore. I'm sure there are some out there, but they are not the norm.

What normally happens with a piece of writing, is you complete it and then it is was it is. The people who consume it can base their opinions on a finished product. That sort of feedback is a lot easier to take in my opinion.

So, why is it easier for me to take criticism than it used to be? Well, just the knowledge of the fact, what we are doing is unique in the way it's judged. I'd also encourage you to take a look at the majority (not all) of people who are giving the criticism, and the manner in which they are delivering it.

I promise you at least 75% of the time, if someone gave you a 2 start rating, you can look on their latest activity, and they've rated the majority of other games that way, and they will also have a bunch of likes for other people's low ratings on games.

Some sad individuals in this world feed on negativity and hide behind the anonymity of the internet like a veil.

So, what am I really trying to say with all of this? Unless someone has written something constructive you can glean something from, fuck 'em. Also realize that the majority of players have no idea what it's like to do what we do. The hours we put in, the love that goes into our projects.

Stay true to your vision, the worst thing in the world is to try and make your game how others want it, because you can't please everyone. Some things people despise about my game in reviews others love, so why would I rob them of it? I make my game how I want to make it, and I hope people enjoy it, but it's not going to change how I make it.

That is all, I wish you all the best!

 

[boobsrcool]

So, why is it easier for me to take criticism than it used to be?

Because you RULE?

Tlaero

You too

 

[fitgirlbestgirl]

I promise you at least 75% of the time, if someone gave you a 2 start rating, you can look on their latest activity, and they've rated the majority of other games that way, and they will also have a bunch of likes for other people's low ratings on games.

Some sad individuals in this world feed on negativity and hide behind the anonymity of the internet like a veil.

 

[MidnightArrow]

We must have watched very different X-Files, lol.

I think I got it spot-on, actually:

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To the writers and devs out there posting in this thread. Something that's helped me with criticism (I'm still not great with it, when people are way off base), is to realize we're really one of the only mediums of novel writing that serialize anymore. I'm sure there are some out there, but they are not the norm.

Not really. Fanfiction is also serialized and it's far more popular than AVNs.

The key to handling criticism is to realize that criticism says more about the critic than it does about the thing they're criticizing. You shouldn't "accept" criticism, you should review it. You need to review the review. Decide how much of what they say is valid and how much is just them projecting their hang-ups, and then throw all the useless parts onto the garbage heap.

 

[bacienvu88]

The key to handling criticism is to realize that criticism says more about the critic than it does about the thing they're criticizing. You shouldn't "accept" criticism, you should review it. You need to review the review. Decide how much of what they say is valid and how much is just them projecting their hang-ups, and then throw all the useless parts onto the garbage heap.

I'd say that is applicable to all form of communication between humans. And communication between human and computer as well.

 

[Impious Monk]

The key to handling criticism is to realize that criticism says more about the critic than it does about the thing they're criticizing. You shouldn't "accept" criticism, you should review it. You need to review the review. Decide how much of what they say is valid and how much is just them projecting their hang-ups, and then throw all the useless parts onto the garbage heap.

Art is subjective. People like different things.

I wouldn't ever want to say that someone's opinion about my game is invalid or that it goes in the garbage heap. It's always useful to know how people respond to my game, whether they like it or not. The issue is whether I can glean from their comments some way I can improve my game.

One review of my game was, "To long and a lot of talking boring game it sucked." I disagree with this review, but I wouldn't call it invalid. The player had this legitimate response to playing my game, and it's safe to assume that many other players also found my dialogue boring. I should keep that in mind when I'm writing dialogue. But I also should keep in mind those other players who praised the exact same dialogue.

I like to remind myself that even the Princess Bride had a couple of negative reviews from professional movie critics.

 

[EndlessNights]

One review of my game was, "To long and a lot of talking boring game it sucked." I disagree with this review, but I wouldn't call it invalid. The player had this legitimate response to playing my game, and it's safe to assume that many other players also found my dialogue boring. I should keep that in mind when I'm writing dialogue. But I also should keep in mind those other players who praised the exact same dialogue.

I agree with your larger points about art being subjective and sincere opinions all being valid, but I'm not sure that review is really something you should keep in mind as you work. It sounds like the reviewer in that case wants to play a different game than the one you want to create -- to please him or her, you'd have to fundamentally change your writing approach and you'd inevitably disappoint the people who enjoy Leaving DNA as it is...including me because I really like the dialogue in the game and think you're very good at writing it.

Let's consider a more extreme example. While the "it sucked" reviewer might just want to play a less wordy VN with more action and sex scenes, Johnny the Sandbox Guy might want you to completely overhaul the game to give him the sandboxy experience he craves. Maybe he really, really likes the story and the writing. He's probably way more engaged in the whole experience than "it sucked." Even so, you still certainly shouldn't rebuild the game from scratch to build the game he wants to play, and him writing a review about wanting the game to be a sandbox isn't something you need to reflect on too deeply...or perhaps at all. At the end of the day, Johnny just needs to find a different game to play in order to get his sandboxing on.

The critical reviews that will be potentially more helpful to you will point out how you may have failed to create the game you actually wanted to write. They'll talk about how they perceived relationships, character motivations, and plot points and make you realize that there were things you left out of the dialogue and the narration that could have made things clearer. They'll help you see the ways you didn't quite manage to pull the story you had in your head into reality (something is always lost in translation).

 

[MidnightArrow]

Art is subjective. People like different things.

I wouldn't ever want to say that someone's opinion about my game is invalid or that it goes in the garbage heap. It's always useful to know how people respond to my game, whether they like it or not. The issue is whether I can glean from their comments some way I can improve my game.

One review of my game was, "To long and a lot of talking boring game it sucked." I disagree with this review, but I wouldn't call it invalid. The player had this legitimate response to playing my game, and it's safe to assume that many other players also found my dialogue boring. I should keep that in mind when I'm writing dialogue. But I also should keep in mind those other players who praised the exact same dialogue.

I like to remind myself that even the Princess Bride had a couple of negative reviews from professional movie critics.

Depends how much of an auteur you aim to be. If you want to be an auteur, at some point you need the self-confidence and the technical know-how to say "This is how it should be."

People criticized my game (not This Time, my own game) for having too much talking and not enough choices. Some people tried to define what a visual novel "should be". I assessed their criticism and it was very clear they only had experience with F95Zone AVNs (and this game wasn't posted here in the first place). They had no experience with actual professional visual novels. In Steinsgate, it takes like three hours to get to the first choice. Their criticism was useless since they had no familiarity with the genre it's a part of, so I said "This is what a professional visual novel is like" and didn't change a thing.

 

[realjitter]

Art is subjective. People like different things.

I like to remind myself that even the Princess Bride had a couple of negative reviews from professional movie critics.

Princess Bride, pretty solid movie, but as you already mentioned, (almost) everything is subjective. This reminds me of a girlfriend of mine like 20 years ago. We wanted to see a movie back at my place and she went through my DVD colletction and after a while she asked me about what my favourite movie is out of the bunch. I answered "Short Cuts"... I've always been a "big" Robert Altman admirer, but i know that his type of movies certainly aren't everyone's cup of tea, to put it mildly. So we watched the movie and I was glued to screen, completely immersed in it, right from the beginning. Then after like 30 minutes I looked over at my girlfriend and, well, she fell asleep =). That was the last time she asked me about movies btw . Funny though, a couple of weeks later we went to the movies and I let her pick which one we're going to watch. She picked Lord of the rings, the first one.. And guess what, I also fell asleep after about an hour into it because I was bored out of my mind. Now that I think of it, I think we actually never watched a movie we both ended up liking . I know of course that many people adore LOTR, but again, (almost) everything is subjective...

 

[yossa999]

Art is subjective. People like different things.

I wouldn't ever want to say that someone's opinion about my game is invalid or that it goes in the garbage heap. It's always useful to know how people respond to my game, whether they like it or not. The issue is whether I can glean from their comments some way I can improve my game.

One review of my game was, "To long and a lot of talking boring game it sucked." I disagree with this review, but I wouldn't call it invalid. The player had this legitimate response to playing my game, and it's safe to assume that many other players also found my dialogue boring. I should keep that in mind when I'm writing dialogue. But I also should keep in mind those other players who praised the exact same dialogue.

I like to remind myself that even the Princess Bride had a couple of negative reviews from professional movie critics.

I absolutely agree with EndlessNights, just wanted to add that unless you're developing yet another landlady molester sim (hey, everyone dreams of creeping on a sleeping landlady, right? Right?) there will always be a part of the audience that will not like what you do, simply because they came for something completely different or they weren't in the mood for your game. And I don't think that "boring dialogue" can be considered a criticism of the game. It's just the matter of taste of a particular player. For example, if the complaint was that your hero speaks like a street punk, although according to the plot he is educated and well-mannered, this is what I would call constructive criticism that you can work with.
Nevertheless, I myself can partially understand and accept this complaint about boring dialogue. Your game and some others like "Defending Lydia Collier" are great games, very interesting and intriguing, but I can only play them when I'm in the right mood for it. I think because of the nature of the detective genre, you have to focus on the details, listen carefully to what the characters have to say, be mindful of things that might matter in the future. And sometimes you just want to relax and have fun watching and listening to a story without getting involved in the puzzles or anything like that. It's like with other computer games, today you feel like playing a complex 4x strategy, and the next day you just want to relax and shoot around in a some 3D shooter with no brain involved.
Anyway, this is your story, so you are the one who knows exactly what these dialogues are for and what their purpose is in the context of the whole plot. And redhead is cool by the way, I adore her so much