Recommending Story-first games

[Impenitent]

I think player choice will always be an illusion, especially in the case of VNs.

I hear your point about there being a limited amount of divergent content, but I wouldn't use the term "illusion." We can get very attached to the characters in these stories. Megan or Melissa is a choice which has a very real emotional impact for the player.

 

[Hildegardt]

I hear your point about there being a limited amount of divergent content, but I wouldn't use the term "illusion." We can get very attached to the characters in these stories. Megan or Melissa is a choice which has a very real emotional impact for the player.

I don't think emotional impact disqualifies something from being an illusion. Optical illusions for example make me go "Wow!". And there's this woman married to an AI and AIs like this are language models that might seem like real people, but they're not. I'd call that an illusion.
The choice between Megan or Melissa is an illusion, because of those characters questionable impact on the story. You have two potentially different paths, depending on the workload the devs are willing to subject themselves to. The story is still predetermined.

 

[Tlaero]

Please excuse me sharing a picture from my project. It still needs some fine-tuning on the posing, but I like the way the glass adds to the scene.

That's excellent, Dragon. I love the glass effect.

Tlaero

 

[Éama]

I hear your point about there being a limited amount of divergent content, but I wouldn't use the term "illusion." We can get very attached to the characters in these stories. Megan or Melissa is a choice which has a very real emotional impact for the player.

Same. VNs where the choices create entirely different branches are rare gems for sure and developers who can pull it off are true masters of the craft. But that is not necessary for a game to be a quality choice-driven experience in my opinion. It's not about branching but the fact that I can customize my experience as much as possible.
The older BioWare games are a great example of this. When FemShep acted tough it didn't alter the plot by much but I still felt like a badass. It also felt more appropriate for her role in the story as far as I was concerned. But other people played her as a goody-two-shoes and that's perfectly valid. The ability to customize a character, to be able to choose a different outlook on life, that was quite enough to give me a sense of agency.

It's like fashion basically. Cut-out dresses are fashionable right now. Lots of people wear them and two people wearing them still can have an entirely different look. It's really not a question about whether or not to wear it, it's the style that makes the difference. Nobody would claim that there is an illusion at play. It's just how we work as humans. Our happiness doesn't require much.

 

[Ezykeyal]

As Hildegardt already pointed out, real-time 3D games are in this respect so much easier to make. VN's are an offline static format which require tremendous amount of work to make a simple change or adjustment. Like an outfit, or any other kind of character customisation. A lot of people don't seem to understand that. In a real-time 3D game, you can have a thousand outfits and whatever you want your character to look like, but the same exact scene still plays, only created once.

 

[bacienvu88]

The main appeal for sandbox to me is being able to choose what story lines i want to interact with and in which order. A linear story can be good when the pacing is right, but more often than not in VNs it becomes skip anything that doesn't interest you. Whereas in a sandbox, you can come back to the content when you feel like it, or not. The game "Come home" is very close to the perfect example of what i want from a sandbox game.

I fail to see any real difference. Such games have multiple linear stories packaged into one game. So instead of 1 linear story you get N linear stories in the same game which could all be separate games because there is minimal interdependence. And if you introduce interdependence you lose the quality of being able choosing what to interact with and in which order. The other extreme of full interdependence is a full linear story.

 

[bacienvu88]

Laced Steele chapter 1 has been released. It is about a new hire at a combined porn studio and witches coven. I like it so far. Lesbian only so far.

 

[Jaike]

I'm going to use the story-choices discussion to shill for Ladykiller in a Bind for a moment, like always. It's a VN/game with ending branches, roughly in 3 styles: Nerd branch style, Princess branch style, and the sorta weird truple branch style that combines fan service with stuff that many yuri fans will hate in the unpatched version. There are important differences in endings within these styles, because you can miss out on a committed relationship on the monogamous branch styles. The LI you spend the night with decides the branch style, if the MC spends 2 nights with both at least you get on the truple branch style. Then there's choice in selecting scenes, available scenes depend on interactions with characters and important choices in scenes carry over to later scenes. Then finally the way the scenes unfold vary incredibly by the choices you pick in the scene, it decides if the MC has sex with side characters or not, and the mechanism is very dynamic unlike most VNs. The cherry on the cake is a score system where you can get points by manipulating other characters, so you get light game mechanics and the final result is relevant for the monogamous branches. Now all that's a super brutal way to design your game, and the VN is 2d and uses busts for a good reason, but it's one way to combine player choices with a story-driven. The VN has aged super well, it feels very fresh still.

Now I actually planned to recommend two games for light reading. I don't think the games have very wide appeal in sexual content, one has very little sex, the other has more fan service but it's for spanking. So I couldn't recommend them for sexual context for another list but some here may enjoy it.

One is Aisling and the Tavern of Elves. It's a Japanese fantasy VN with mystery isekai vibes about a human mercenary in an elven town who becomes owner of an inn and, ehhhh, turns it into a fastfood restaurant. I thought the story was cute and though it was pretty lighthearted high fantasy stuff, I enjoyed the references to medieval production. Pretty lightweight, but brewing was indeed not regulated by guilds and animal fat candles certainly were a thing though using pig fat would be very unusual. It says there are 4 endings, but there are really only 2 LIs and 2 endings are just bachelorette endings. Not much romance, the oblivious MC is just hit on by an employee and you choose she gets the hint or not. You can safely ignore the ones where she stays alone, not really worth the time. And the devs made the bold decision to make one very prominent character NOT an LI. Don't forget to check the branch where you take Bronag/Brioche to the mine.

The other is The Misadventures of The Elven Paladin. I really liked the premiss with the culture clash between the MC who's linked to human institutions and her traditionalist mother and sister. Unfortunately the plot of the game is mostly "solve the town's problems with the magic power of spanking" so that doesn't really do the creative setup justice. It's very choice-based and I think it's implemented pretty well and the storyline is imo fresh, enjoyable and well-paced despite the not so serious plot's reliance on fan service. Only checked the Nam ending so far but I thought the super light corruption dynamic, where the maid gets herself in a deeper mess than intended, the MC follows up on that and they get dragged to levels of intensity or "depravity" they didn't really intend, was surprising enough but fit the tone of the game well too. More fetish focused than story focused but I thought it was still worth a check.

 

[desmosome]

That's not what a sandbox game is, though. Sandbox games are pure game mechanics, procedurally generated content most of the time and (ideally) emergent gameplay. Kinda how sand is very malleable and you can use it to build whatever you want or even dig down into it instead of stacking it up.

The GTA series are sandbox games. Simulators are sandbox games. A modded out the ass Skyrim is a sandbox game.
I recently discovered an early access game called Shadows of Doubt. It's a detective game with procedurally generated murders (it's pretty fun!). VNs can't work like that, because the murderer always has to be in the images folder already.

I've made this same argument years back. I'm fine with using community accepted terms at this point though. For some reason, sandbox is the term that took hold for that specific type of porn game. It's mostly fine, because true sandbox porn games essentially don't exist.

There is a spectrum of sandboxiness, though. Is it only sandbox if it's a real-time game and you can just fuck around with the mechanics? Is it still sandbox if there is a pre-written main plot you can follow at your own pace, but the world is still your playground? Is it still a sandbox if there is a bunch of pre-written content that you can choose to engage in in whatever order, but it's not a real-time game? Is it still a sandbox if you can only follow a pre-determined order of events, but you gotta click on the maps and grind some stats?

That last one is total bullshit and a waste of time. We've all played the "sandbox" that is actually just a linear story where any interaction with the world other than the "next step" is empty. They still get the sandbox tag because hurr durr free-roam. But this type of game design is just terrible period, regardless of their sandbox contention.

Once you start adding real interactivity to the world and some freedom, I think it's fine to call it a sandbox, at least in this community. Some games come surprisingly close to bringing legit sandboxiness. Hentai High School, Glassix, Superpowered, Love Sex Second Base, High-Rise Climb, A Spell For All, and a few others. You could call it an illusion of sandbox, but that illusion is good enough to achieve the desired player experience.

 

[boobsrcool]

It's silly, honestly. If the sandbox tag is for free-roam type games (instead of what everybody else thinks of as a sandbox), why not use a free-roam tag? And wtf even is free-roam?

• Free-Roam [For Sandbox type of games.]

It's not descriptive at all.
Is the new Come Home UI still Free-Roam, even though you click on characters now instead of places?
In terms of gameplay there's no difference between clicking on icons or a list of text. The only use for the sandbox tag is as a buzzword for the fact that having to click on a landlady's bedroom door is making people cry for some reason. That's all it is: A buzztag.

Even as a sandbox hater Come Home really is a breath of fresh air for its variety and cozy atmosphere too bad if the dev is catching heat for the improved ui

 

[jufot]

Laced Steele chapter 1 has been released. It is about a new hire at a combined porn studio and witches coven. I like it so far. Lesbian only so far.

I remember playing the demo a while ago. This was a good follow up. The writing is a bit clumsy, but I love the idea of an all-lesbian porn studio being cover for a coven. Ironically, that means the pornier a sex scene is, the more story-first it becomes

I do hope it stays lesbian only, cis or otherwise.

One is Aisling and the Tavern of Elves. [...] The other is The Misadventures of The Elven Paladin.

Ah, the elusive Jaike recommendation! After Ladykiller, and especially Blood Biter, I have confidence in your picks. They both sound interesting.

 

[Dragon59]

That's excellent, Dragon. I love the glass effect.

Tlaero

When I formulated the scene in my mind, they were having breakfast on a balcony. I couldn't find the right balcony asset for my vision so I went with plan b. A very satisfying plan B. I need to see if I can actually get a Paris backdrop to show up on the reflection. I also like that I did a more artistic framing. So often, we see the main action in the middle of a scene--something we don't have to do with static images that allow viewers to take their time taking in the scene. I expect it may also be a holdover to the original Ren'Py style as well as what we tend to see in movies and TV, since they film to be compatible with a number of aspect ratios.

Kubrick excepted. He used the frame size to the utmost.

The thing about Kubrick is that his sets were as important as any actor if not more so. In AVNs we have the freedom to be like Kubrick and make maximum use of the set, the environment.

I remember playing the demo a while ago. This was a good follow up. The writing is a bit clumsy, but I love the idea of an all-lesbian porn studio being cover for a coven. Ironically, that means the pornier a sex scene is, the more story-first it becomes

I do hope it stays lesbian only, cis or otherwise.

Ah, the elusive Jaike recommendation! After Ladykiller, and especially Blood Biter, I have confidence in your picks. They both sound interesting.

Yeah. We don't have enough in that category. Too many people insist all their stories center around dick all the time.

 

[bacienvu88]

I remember playing the demo a while ago. This was a good follow up. The writing is a bit clumsy, but I love the idea of an all-lesbian porn studio being cover for a coven. Ironically, that means the pornier a sex scene is, the more story-first it becomes

I do hope it stays lesbian only, cis or otherwise.

I find the mix of the somewhat silly porn side together with the more serious witch business to mesh really well. And I really like the adorable MC.

Speaking of lesbian games. I recently played Ariana's Perverted Diary recently. It is lesbian/futa (no men). I usually don't like mind control and the writing is a bit clumsy here as well. But I still ended up being charmed by the game. It is pretty sex heavy though, not that much story.

 

[Dragon59]

I find the mix of the somewhat silly porn side together with the more serious witch business to mesh really well. And I really like the adorable MC.

Speaking of lesbian games. I recently played Ariana's Perverted Diary recently. It is lesbian/futa (no men). I usually don't like mind control and the writing is a bit clumsy here as well. But I still ended up being charmed by the game. It is pretty sex heavy though, not that much story.

I have to admit, I back off a bit when they say "futa" instead of "trans" in a non-fantasy story.

 

[bacienvu88]

I have to admit, I back off a bit when they say "futa" instead of "trans" in a non-fantasy story.

It is a fantasy story though. And from what has been shown so far I think futa fits better.

Spoiler: plot spoiler

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[Dragon59]

It is a fantasy story though. And from what has been shown so far I think futa fits better.

Spoiler: plot spoiler

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Ah, thanks. I saw no indication on the first page that it was fantasy. Probably rushed reading that lowered comprehension.

 

[Hildegardt]

I've made this same argument years back. I'm fine with using community accepted terms at this point though. For some reason, sandbox is the term that took hold for that specific type of porn game. It's mostly fine, because true sandbox porn games essentially don't exist.

There actually are a few true sandbox games on here. And funnily enough none of the ones I can think of right now have the sandbox tag.
I think, as it stands, the sandbox tag is pretty useless and I can't see that as a good thing (mind you it's not the only useless tag).

There is a spectrum of sandboxiness, though. Is it only sandbox if it's a real-time game and you can just fuck around with the mechanics? Is it still sandbox if there is a pre-written main plot you can follow at your own pace, but the world is still your playground? Is it still a sandbox if there is a bunch of pre-written content that you can choose to engage in in whatever order, but it's not a real-time game? Is it still a sandbox if you can only follow a pre-determined order of events, but you gotta click on the maps and grind some stats?

Imo it's all about the emergent gameplay. Dicking around with the physics in a simulator is prime sandbox gaming to me. But I don't think every sandbox game has to be a pure sandbox. There are a lot of RPGs "with sandbox elements" out there.

Once you start adding real interactivity to the world and some freedom, I think it's fine to call it a sandbox, at least in this community. Some games come surprisingly close to bringing legit sandboxiness. Hentai High School, Glassix, Superpowered, Love Sex Second Base, High-Rise Climb, A Spell For All, and a few others. You could call it an illusion of sandbox, but that illusion is good enough to achieve the desired player experience.

XStoryPlayer is probably the prime example of a sandbox porn game. As the title implies, it was supposed to be about the stories, but the actual unique characteristic was the gameplay. It was almost like a game engine on its own, in which the devs could stage different scenes and have the players interact with them with extensive controls.
Some Modeling Agency is similar, but not as extensive.
House Party and Wild Life are the most popular, but I'd say Wild Life is only a sandbox because of the map editor. Otherwise it's still only a scene viewer.

None of these are Ren'Py games, never mind VNs. I don't think VNs can ever be true sandbox games. But could sandbox games ever be story first (to get back on topic )? I actually think it's weird that they're not a more popular medium for porn games.
It's weird that people complain about Unity asset flips, but lap up the same five Daz assets and copy/pasted animations in every Ren'Py game. A prerendered game should in theory look better, but it's in practice bottlenecked by the limited hardware of amateur devs. A realtime rendering game looks better with less effort.
And once you've got some barebones gameplay mechanics going, you can use them to tell any story you like (kinda like how XStoryPlayer worked).

 

[bacienvu88]

Digging up an old post ...

What's particularly disappointing about RobertD's choice is that he's capable of sketching three-dimensional characters, and understands that sex consists of more than just the act itself: there was a nice hint of eroticism in his short Emily game. To throw that promising talent into creating yet another harem game is, well, not great

You might be interested to know that RobertDeadth is working on a new short in parallel with Tune in to the show: An Evening of Wonders

 

[Dragon59]

Digging up an old post ...

You might be interested to know that RobertDeadth is working on a new short in parallel with Tune in to the show: An Evening of Wonders

I'd never heard of Tune Into The Show. A "Big Brother" (European style) story without Max! I'm interested to see how that works out. It might be interesting to attempt a reality show story some time.

 

[jufot]

The Entrepreneur's final episode is out on

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